Growing up an American Muslim

Re: Ras Siddiqui post # 45

I agree totally with your sentiments on the need of the Muslim community to politically, economically and culturally, within the main stream American media context, to organize an effective lobby for its owns interests in the United States.

Re: Altaf post # 43

Thanks for telling your me your profession, because within that context, your argument makes perfect sense. My friend, we can go around in cirles debating this issue ala hijab, and still not settle the debate. In all honesty, as a social worker, I am amazed by the passion, dedication, time and effort which your profession puts into helping others. In the same vein, I can understand how my, a politico working for the Republicans in this American political circus, indifference to your causes might rankle you!! :)

As to the Latinos having nothing to compromise, there is a grain of truth to that statement, but yaar, the American Political Waltz works this way: one step forward, two steps back, one step sideways and turn, one step forward, two steps back..... and so on.... I could sense your committment to the struggle and I know you are in the front line trenches of this particular battle, but remember, it is always wiser to retreat and fight another day, than hold your ground and be overrun!!! As Lord Byron said, ``Fight! Fight for freedom`s cause where ever you may be...``, but it is your ability to compromise, compromise and compromise, in the political arena, which will keep you and your cause alive and you`ll always be around to fight another day!

Re: Omar1974

The word you were looking for is not ``Che``, but ``Qué`` as in ``Qué sera sera, what will be will be....`` Che is the nom d`plume, une nom d`guerrre for Ernesto ``Che` Guverea, the famous revolutionary who was Fidel Castro`s right hand man during the Cuban Revolution and the person who was portrayed by Antonio Banderas in the movie Evita.

Incidently, and this amuse all the medical professionals on Chowk, but Che, an Argentine, was trained as a medical doctor and had volunteered to be a doctor with the Cuban revolutionary invasion force training. However, when he landed in Cuba, the force came under fire and he had to take shelter from the fire and was separted from his medical supplies. After searching around for his medical bag, he spotted it lying next to a rifle. He had a choice: he could pick his medical bag and be a doctor or he could pick the rifle and fight. He picked up the rifle. In making that decision he chose to participate in what he believed in instead of being a mere observer. He chose to play instead to being just another spectator.

To me that is what life is all about. Making a decision and then living with the consequences of your actions.

As to your tete a tete with Zehra, all I can say is, nicht mehr (more), bitte nicht mehr mein freund! In a rather ironical way, you by your posts, have suggested that the greatest obstacle, many Pakistani-Muslims immigrants and the second generations, have towards assimilation is not the resistence of the natives (Americans, Canadians etc.), but rather the insecurities of the ``liberal`` Pakistani-Muslims. You, in a manner of speaking, see Zehra`s hijab as a social commentary and as an antithesis to the image you are seeking to foster in this society as a secular, western educated and progessive Pakistani muslim.

Take my word for it Omar1974 (though it is 1999 and you are 25yrs out of sync with reality) but Americans do not give a damn how Zehra choses to dress. Yes, they may not understand the significance of the hijab, but that is their problem. Why are you so bothered by this? In many ways, and why I love this country, most Americans will judge you on the content of your character and not on how you dress!

In all the posts so far, I have not seen Zehra critise you for not wearing French cuffs, (the current symbol of power)or prefering a belt over suspenders...what difference does it make what clothing accessory she puts on her head! I like and respect Zehra for who she is and what she thinks and I don`t care if she wears a dunce cap and walks around the town with a sign that says, ``kick me, I am a dork!``, I still love her for the person she is!

Re: Zehra

Are you familar with an Irish song called Danny Boy. Anyways, I would like to paraphrase its ending: Zehra...I love your soul! Don`t worry bud, I will slice and dice for you any time and dress the way you like and if people do not like it, well just tell them that it is better to set a fashion trend than follow one!

Read ya later aligator!!!

re AA
``Being
bombarded in the 80s by Zia induced television that screamed religious propaganda, and presented
one bearded man after another, and ended the day`s tv entertainment with Farman-i-elahi and the
national anthem, one feels strangely about religion. Religion and Nationalism, all in one cup of bed
time medicine. Seeing women tv actors cover their heads even while they slept in bed. Zia handing
chaddors to dignatory wives, symbolizing, ``well this is how we want are women to be --wrapped up
in chaddors..`` Seeing society become more and more hyprocritical in terms of religion. Telling you, I
think it has an effect on you.

Ont thing, religion starts to scare you.``

you said it very well. those were dark times, truly scary.

Dear Zehra,

Having read your hijab discussion on the two articles (reply sections) as you suggested, i no longer wish to belabour my point beyond this post. You have already admitted that now there is no choice, your parents just expect you to wear it. I predicted this as being 1 of the 2 possible reasons (the other a sincerely misguided religious belief).

However, I am glad to know that you have a strong individual personality, that is very clear, and can think for yourself. Its also clear that the issue is more complex for u than the average hijaban. Well, enough said.

Perhaps Shahbaz said it best (#26 on Bina`s article), that by giving up your freedom when you have the choice, you demean the women who have no choice, and elevate their enslavement & Suffering into something noble as opposed to mere oppression that they are forced to suffer silently. That was why I brought up the Balauch/Afghan women before, but what Shahbaz said was much more articulate. I remain indebted to his insight.

P.S don`t imagine i haven`t considered that you have a perfect right to ``freely`` embrace the hijab (like I said, while i don`t approve, i would be willing to fight for your freedom to do so so, not that you need my help), but MY WHOLE POINT throughout this discussion was afterall, the serious doubts i expressed as to your TRUE LEVEL OF CONSENT (and these remain). I feel somewhat justified now in my thinking so after reading your old posts on the issue, however, and this is important, I no longer wish to categorize u into some box with every other mindless hijaban. `Cause lets face it, you don`t fit into the preconceived mold completely. And that is what you were really fighting for people to understand right ? That you should not be prejudged simply because you were the basmati rice bag headgear ? I got it. If I said anything even in jest, that hurt you before, please forgive me.



OMAR1974

re: omar1947. the article i was referring to by bina is called `` a heavy price to pay`` by far one of the most chilling and disturbing takes on the shariat bill and how the first thing to go will be womens rights. an awesome piece.

i can`t help myself...

Omar1974: would it surprise you to know that my parents had a ``love`` marriage and that it was inter-cultural? would it surprise you to know i know whats it like to have loved and lost, and loved again and to have lost it again? and then start alll over again? bina: the disapproving hijabi sisters you have to deal with..surprise surprise, i also had to deal with them...someone told me that if i didn`t respect hijab and couldn`t make the proper commitment, then i shouldn`t wear it, my answer to her was that it was between god and myself and the third party had nothing to do with it. its a personal choice about how we all want to live our lives..regardless of how much omar would like me to see the error of my ways or why i do everything i do, its still up to me. thanks.

rizvi

re: all who are remotely interested in this discussion about hijab ( bina and omar1974).

bg just lately said that she didn`t feel that she had to explain anything about herself. im going to take the same stance. you are so right bina...i don`t have to justify it to anyone to feel good about myself..and i don`t know why i get into the whole hijab thing. perhaps because omar will predict my life for me and how my parents, the ones he has never met will react to certain things. he manages to offend me so then i feel obliged, in my anger , to write back. whatever it is, hate hijab, hate me, it really doesnt matter to me :) bina, i said you reminded me of a close minded freak just for that instance. you are one of the people on chowk i admire and respect the most, even though there is this one issue that we will never agree on...its not even that we are not agreeing, its just that there is no allowance for people to be diferent in your prespective and differnce in all aspects of life is something that i thrive on. its all good. allow me to back down from the hijab discussion, its one that i don`t like to get into and makes me overly defensive since i feel i am being attacked.

rizvi

Re: Zehra

I did not want to offend you so I am glad that you didn`t take offence. You say the essay was not analytical but `cathartic`, not meant to edify `any issue`. Oh.. I see. You don`t have a point. Well Zehra bibi, next time you feel the need for some catharsis please read yourself your little essay, have a good little cry and get over it. And if you must put it on Chowk, please do so with a disclaimer so people like me won`t make the mistake of thinking you have something meaningful to say.

Also in your reply, you claim that ``I am not oppressed and never said I was``. Now if that is the case...why the need for catharsis? Also in your article you refer to your ``struggle`` and the ``substandard`` manner in which Muslims are treated.

But wait... I think you said ``multiple readings give you a different perspective each time``. What the hell does that mean?

Regarding the schizophrenic family raising issue: Not knowing you or your family, it was not intended as a slam on them. What I meant was that we have a whole generation of Pakistani immigrants in this coutnry that have raised their kids in a very disjointed manner. And judging from a lot of the discussion it seems that a lot of these kids have great identity problems (ie they lack one).

I have read your other essay, and thought it was well written and generally enjoy your responses to other peoples articles. But this so called essay is lacking. How many essays were entered in this competition...2? I now understand the `c` in abcd a lot better.

Faraz

Zehra:

re: bina To read more about what its like to grow up paki/british , pick up any hanif kureshi book. the black album or my all time favorite, the

I have read Hanif Kureshi and watched his movies extensively over the past five years. But one man`s narratives are simply one man`s narratives...limiting at times. Also, he writes mostly about men, while I need to know about women`s experiences too. Kureshi isn`t too good at presenting a female point of view.

As to comparing FGM (female genital mutation) to hijab...you remind me of the close-minded freaks I had to deal with my freshman year).

Gee thanks! No one`s ever said I reminded them of a closed-minded freak before.

They equated hijab with someone who would hold down another woman to see her all chopped up and sexless.

I stated that the WAYS IN WHICH WOMEN ARE CONVINCED that hijab was preferable or required were similar to the ways in which women were convinced that circumcision was preferable or required. Not that hijab and circumcision are the same. For God`s sake! Donning hijab and having your genitals excised are definitely not the same.

Its like If I wear hijab I cant be as liberal and
open-minded as the rest. That is the message that you send out.

Nope. I never said that if you wear hijab you can`t be open-minded. Please don`t put words in my mouth, Zehra. Sometimes I find you awfully defensive about your hijab - understandable, I guess - but you should try to be more aware of when you`re hearing things that truly come from other people, and when they are actually your own thoughts or subconcious feelings that you are projecting onto other people. This sounds more like something you have extensively struggled with - whether wearing hijab means you can`t be liberal or open-minded. As I don`t wear hijab, it isn`t my fight.

As for the conflict between hijab and liberalism: I always thought that wearing hijab was a signal to yourself, to God, and to the world that as a Muslim you had forsaken a more liberal code of dress and behavior for a more conservative one. You`ve said before that you wear hijab but don`t mind wearing tight jeans to show off a ``sexy ass``. Doesn`t this go completely against what the hijab stands for? By definition, you cannot be as liberal in dress and behavior when you are wearing hijab, if you are truly honest to what it represents.

Believe it or not, when I was in college and the president of our Muslim students group (yes, me!) I thought about wearing hijab. But I rejected the idea because I couldn`t make the commitment I felt it required - to all or nothing. Let me tell you that the disapproval and criticism that came from my hijab-wearing sisters, who looked down on me and thought I was ``weak`` and not as moral as they, was as harsh and disturbing as what you face from people who can`t understand your hijab.

And just because we disagree on this point doesn`t mean that the greater issues we fight for (I am pretty sure we`re on the same side here) are sabotaged. Like Omar, I`ll fight for your right to wear hijab, but I don`t necessarily have to believe in it. And you shouldn`t need my approval to feel good about it yourself!

Zehra:

You may find reply #235 to the article SEX EVERYWHERE also very pertinent to the issue of Hijab.

OMAR1974

Zehra says addressing me:

your narrow-mindedness on this topic is...somehow not surprising. you say : ``but lets cut the b.s, we both know that at some point in your life the burqa/veil/hijab was presented as a pure ideal, and you accepted that at face value.`` i cannot Believe the gal it must have taken to write down such a patronzing and utterly ludicrous statement.

OMAR1974s reply:

Well, are you saying that you wear hijab under protest ? Does that mean that you concede my point that it is your family`s pressure/influence that makes you wear it?

Elaborating on what Bina just said, re your wearing tight jeans plus hijab, dont you think that if you wore a bikini on the beach plus hijab with sun glasses, you`d be totally defeating the purpose of wearing the hijab (actually I think some of the American 60s beach party movies actually portray this type of HIJAB as being pretty cool). I certainly approved! (grin) Believe it or not, i would even defend your right to wear this outfit on freedom of personhood/free speech grounds on Clifton Beach, Karachi.

Cheers for fashionable hijab wearers,

Omar

Zehra said:

There are some things that we do to please our parents, that is so very true, and I will admit that that definitely plays a part in my wearing hijab. South asian parents have a strange hold on their children, and at times its almost tangible. But again, as you so wonderfully put it, I would not expect my parents to stand in my way if I chose to marry someone outside of my culture and/or religion. They wouldn`t give me the green light on that one but its something I would feel very strongly about and would have to counter whatever arguments they presented. Its all about how much priority you give that issue in your life and how much you want to fight for it. Thanks.

z.rizvi

Listen Zehra, the last thing I meant to do was hurt your feelings, but in this post you yourself virtually admit my point about the PURE IDEAL that patriarchy presented to u (and I had not read this post when I sent my previous reply). So why quibble? As for my being G-D, well i`m most certainly not informed about other aspects of life, i can only make an educated guess at best regarding motivation, but i`m probably (rolling the dice) pretty darn close (if not rolling snake eyes every time), and perhaps that is making you too defensive.

I don`t think i implied that you encouraged anyone to don the hijab against their will, if you felt i did, i apologize, but facts are facts. That is precisely what most hijabans are forced to do. Sorry, but this is planet Earth, 1999, yet most Muslim women are living like it is still the middle ages thanks to muslim men who have made the value of wearing restrictive clothing into a positive social good. YES, its not about you only, my dear selfish one that I have plunged into this debate (grin), it IS POLITICAL.

If its ``all about the priority you give to the issue in your life``, are you saying that since this is a low priority issue for u personally, it wasn`t worth fighting your parents over the rights NOT to wear it, but free choice marriage is such an issue for u ?

The strange hold that S.Asian parents have (your self-confession) over their kids is possible only thru the institution of patriarchy.

And if you choose to marry someone outside your culture/religion be sure to write an article for all of us on your parents reaction/your (quite likely) ostracization from the extended family structure, the catharsis you went went thru, the final choice you made --- to desert your True Love Vs. Your Family. The Agony of that choice. The reality of today, as you write that piece. And conclude with your hope for a reconcilliation or better yet, leave it open ended with a sort of Che Serra Serra, whatever will be will be, the futures not ours to see Chae Serra Serra, i will always love my parents deep in the recesses of my heart/ or (depending on the outcome) my lost love. And finally,either the husband out of an arranged marriage comes home as the climax and you welcome him with din-din, or we realize that what your choice has cost you, you are 40, an aging old maid, still sitting at the home of your parents, never found love in life after you made another self-sacrifice. I?ll be more than happy to read the piece when u write it, if you care to share ofcourse.

PLEASE dont be mad at my little attempt at predective writing. I truly dont mean to make you mad. Just want to force you to think critically. I am not G-D! My opinions are not written on stone tablets. Still, I know something about how this world works, while i humbly acknowledge the possibility (say 15%) that I could be completely off base, 85% chances are that I struck a chord somewhere. Okay, so its a White head sack (the possibilty had crossed my mind) like a 5 kg bag of basmati rice or sugar. Yeah, i was wrong ....

I know life must be tough, and i seriously am the last guy who wants to make it tougher for you, honestly. In all liklihood im more likely to be one of the guys on your side than not, in terms of admiration for your donning the ghilaf (pillow case)in N.America, just because its gotta make everyday life more difficult. But i am a deep skeptic at heart regarding whether it can ever really be a product of free choice. Still i respect your courage, if not your, uh, (choice?).

sincerely,

Omar

If anyone knows the name of the article on Chowk on the Shariat Bill Zehra referred to earlier I`d be most obliged. I don`t believe that Bina Shah was the author.

sincerely,

OMAR1974

Zehra said:

There are some things that we do to please our parents, that is so very true, and I will admit that that definitely plays a part in my wearing hijab. South asian parents have a strange hold on their children, and at times its almost tangible. But again, as you so wonderfully put it, I would not expect my parents to stand in my way if I chose to marry someone outside of my culture and/or religion. They wouldn`t give me the green light on that one but its something I would feel very strongly about and would have to counter whatever arguments they presented. Its all about how much priority you give that issue in your life and how much you want to fight for it. Thanks.

z.rizvi

Listen Zehra, the last thing I meant to do was hurt your feelings, but in this post you yourself virtually admit my point about the PURE IDEAL that patriarchy presented to u (and I had not read this post when I sent my previous reply). So why quibble? As for my being G-D, well i`m most certainly not informed about other aspects of life, i can only make an educated guess at best regarding motivation, but i`m probably (rolling the dice) pretty darn close (if not rolling snake eyes every time), and perhaps that is making you too defensive.

I don`t think i implied that you encouraged anyone to don the hijab against their will, if you felt i did, i apologize, but facts are facts. That is precisely what most hijabans are forced to do. Sorry, but this is planet Earth, 1999, yet most Muslim women are living like it is still the middle ages thanks to muslim men who have made the value of wearing restrictive clothing into a positive social good. YES, its not about you only, my dear selfish one(grin), it IS POLITICAL.

The strange hold that S.Asian parents have (your self-confession) over their kids is possible only thru the institution of patriarchy.

And if you choose to marry someone outside your culture/religion be sure to write an article for all of us on your parents reaction/your (quite likely) ostracization from the extended family structure, the catharsis you went went thru, the final choice you made --- to desert your True Love Vs. Your Family. The Agony of that choice. The reality of today, as you write that piece. And conclude with your hope for a reconcilliation or better yet, leave it open ended with a sort of Che Serra Serra, whatever will be will be, the futures not ours to see Chae Serra Serra, i will always love my parents deep in the recesses of my heart/ or (depending on the outcome) my lost love. And finally,either the husband out of an arranged marriage comes home as the climax and you welcome him with din-din, or we realize that what your choice has cost you, you are 40, an aging old maid, still sitting at the home of your parents, never found love in life after you made another self-sacrifice. I?ll be more than happy to read the piece when u write it, if you care to share ofcourse.

PLEASE dont be mad at my little attempt at predective writing. I truly dont mean to make you mad. Just want to force you to think critically. I am not G-D! My opinions are not written on stone tablets. Still, I know something about how this world works, while i humbly acknowledge the possibility (say 15%) that I could be completely off base, 85% chances are that I struck a chord somewhere. Okay, so its a White head sack (the possibilty had crossed my mind) like a 5 kg bag of basmati rice or sugar. Yeah, i was wrong ....

I know life must be tough, and i seriously am the last guy who wants to make it tougher for you, honestly. In all liklihood im more likely to be one of the guys on your side than not, in terms of admiration for your donning the ghilaf (pillow case)in N.America, just because its gotta make everyday life more difficult. But i am a deep skeptic at heart regarding whether it can ever really be a product of free choice. Still i respect your courage, if not your, uh, (choice?).

sincerely,

Omar

Zehra:
Religious identity seems so different for people who grow up in the US, and for those who grow up back home. In my experience I see Americans embrace religion with a renewed sense of energy - maybe a reaction to the racism against and marginalization of Muslims in the US. Some non Americans, on the other hand, feel so detached from and weighed down by religion. Being bombarded in the 80s by Zia induced television that screamed religious propaganda, and presented one bearded man after another, and ended the day`s tv entertainment with Farman-i-elahi and the national anthem, one feels strangely about religion. Religion and Nationalism, all in one cup of bed time medicine. Seeing women tv actors cover their heads even while they slept in bed. Zia handing chaddors to dignatory wives, symbolizing, ``well this is how we want are women to be --wrapped up in chaddors..`` Seeing society become more and more hyprocritical in terms of religion. Telling you, I think it has an effect on you.

Ont thing, religion starts to scare you.

Religion scares me. I associate it with the world`s most perverse joke on humankind.

Volumes can and will be written on this subject.
And somehow we need to continue to reach the American mass media on a regular basis.

The question is HOW?

The Muslim minority in the United States is
small yet generally quite successful. It needs
to find a balance between assimilation and
the negation of its environment.

Either way it is now a part of Americana. It certainly needs to work as hard as possible in building a more positive image in this society
in spite of the resistance faced. Getting into
the political mainstream (Democratic Party
or the Republicans) here is now a must.

Muslims need to advance further economically
and become EMPLOYERS instead of model employees.
Economic clout is almost divine in most parts
of the world today in which the West is no exception. We also need to COMMUNICATE with
our environment and attempt to dampen the ignorance and hate. Silent acceptance is no help.

Ras

omar1974 = God? are you telling me WHY i do certain things? you stand agaisnt patriarchy of any kind and here i feel that you are trying to run my life for me. don`t presume to tell me why i do certain things that i do. you, of all people will never know why i do anything, so please stop inferring from reading ONE piece by me why i do anything i do. this comming from someone who ``deeply cherishes the value of free speech and freedom of personhood``. let me be my own person and don`t answer any of my questions for me. bringing up afghan or balouchi women was totally a low blow since we are all more than aware that it is NOT a choice for them. tell me when have ``I`` preached to others to wear hijab and brainwashed them in any instance? your narrow-mindedness on this topic is...somehow not surprising. you say : ``but lets cut the b.s, we both know that at some point in your life the burqa/veil/hijab was presented as a pure ideal, and you accepted that at face value.`` i cannot Believe the gal it must have taken to write down such a patronzing and utterly ludicrous statement. your response just totally disturbed me...and to drive that point home, do NOT assume anything about me OR other women who wear hijab. you do NOT know the reasonsing behind it. in your god like stance you guessed the wrong color of my hijab..its white. i really want to succumb to a childish instinct and say nya nya na boo boo.

re: rana you said...

In one instance you say ``how does one differentiate between your religion, your identity and your culture?`` and you go on to say that ``Islam specifically derives its culture from religion``. hence Muslims also do.``

my lack of puncuation really is awful i know, what i said, and should have puncuated corretly was that ``that is my identity and I use both culture and religion to identity myself with. Also, many religions around the world, and we can talk specifically about Islam, (the missing comma there) derive their culture from their religion...``

what i meant by that statement, to just clarify was that there is no way one can hold culture identiy and religion as separate. there are so many things in my culture and in the arab culture that are direct resonants of religion, Islam. i am not saying that it is exclusivly Islam that is creating this culture but it does play a big role in forming culture. you also wrote :``TS and Cornershop have nothing to do with Islam or Arabia. runway ???? Yasmin Ghauri (half German/half Pak) maybe.... Madonna chants in Sankrit and wears Mehandi ????`` i should have again clarified. you took the ``we`` in that sentence to mean Muslim and i was referring to South Asians. i should have been more careful in presenting that bit but since being an american muslim of south asian decsent, things liek that do escape me. i meant that south asian culture is coming into the mainstream and that is why we are not so foreign anymore. on the runaway, i maent in terms of fashion. if you follow vogue etc, you will notice a definite trend in that direction. Ts and cornershop are also comming into the limelight or have been..i should have mentioned authors like arundathi roy and hanif kureshi. i hope that clarifys my position on that. for malianai edification i wil ljust cut and past bg`s response since its one that i would echo..

``

Feb-10-99 16:1:27 EST Reply #: 36

bg

re maliani

``religion is a subset of culture``

this is a rather narrow and linear view of culture, religion and identity. where does religion end and culture begin? can you truly cut up and break down your own person, your thoughts, your material environment into its `cultural` and `religious` pieces? EVEN if one takes the rather limited set theory definition of religion and culture, how does it delegitimise zehra`s self-identification as a cultural and religious muslim?

z.rizvi