Growing up an American Muslim

re: omar1974

i am absolutely dumbfounded by the fact that you have managed to draw a whole profile of Zehra just on the basis of her wearing a Hijab. you equate her choice, yes choice (i do know her) as a product of conditioning, ostracized adolesence, and false martyr complex.

Meanwhile you stand their with this holier than though voice of reason that is not interrupted by your very own biases or should i say conditioning. what fascinates me about (ex-)muslim `progressive boys` like you is how you run to defend a muslim womens right to wear a hijab but turn around to assert your progressiveness by reducing her to the status just that a hijabi, not a complete individual. so what is the difference between you and others who want to liberate the muslim women by forcing them to `unveil` themselves?

people have many different ways of relating to their belief systems, their identities. these relationships are not fixed in stone, inscribed in genes. one should have the right to express their identity any way they wish to as long as they are not causing harm to others. your false characterization of Zehra is a example of the pre-suppositions that you have about women who wear the hijab; i.e. she wears a hijab so she must be oppressed or brainwashed. if you want to get down to it we are all brainwashed by one form of discourse or another. to say that you hold the absolute truth on complex social issues is to be as fundamentalist as any retro-grade taliban mullah.

ArtZ:

Please please please write your article! Emphasis on the part of what it`s like to be Pakistani/Muslim growing up in Britain. I feel like it`s a whole world I know nothing about. They`ve been going through this for so much longer than the North American counterparts, and I want to know what it`s like. It seems so much rougher, more violent, the racism more open, the hatred more apparent. It breeds a totally different race. Is there any truth to the comment that the Asians in Britain are treated the way the blacks are in the United States?

Omar1974: Thanks for your comments about circumcision and hijab. I found them very relevant. I feel that hijab is not a farz in Islam (after extensive reading, study, etc. could not find enough evidence to convince me that it was mandated by God). Still it is a practice less harmful than circumcision physically. Yet the way of convincing women that it is necessary (for whatever reason - morality, purity, a source of pride etc.) is the same as with female circumcision. In some quarters it verges on emotional blackmail. I couldn`t agree more with what you said about how our women take something negative and view it in a positive social context in the hopes that it will become more appealing. To me, it just goes against logic.

ArtZ:

Please please please write your article! Emphasis on the part of what it`s like to be Pakistani/Muslim growing up in Britain. I feel like it`s a whole world I know nothing about. They`ve been going through this for so much longer than the North American counterparts, and I want to know what it`s like. It seems so much rougher, more violent, the racism more open, the hatred more apparent. It breeds a totally different race. Is there any truth to the comment that the Asians in Britain are treated the way the blacks are in the United States?

Omar1974: Thanks for your comments about circumcision and hijab. I found them very relevant. I feel that hijab is not a farz in Islam (after extensive reading, study, etc. could not find enough evidence to convince me that it was mandated by God). Still it is a practice less harmful than circumcision physically. Yet the way of convincing women that it is necessary (for whatever reason - morality, purity, a source of pride etc.) is the same as with female circumcision. In some quarters it verges on emotional blackmail. I couldn`t agree more with what you said about how our women take something negative and view it in a positive social context in the hopes that it will become more appealing. To me, it just goes against the grain.

``My take on that is to change what being ``american`` is all about. I want the term to fit who I am because dammit! I am american. As an american I can be whomever I choose to be and whoever doesn`t like it, can take a hike :)``

You go girl:)

I love it. That is the attitude you should walk with. Ferozek, hay koi jawab.

(As usual chingari chodday ja raha hoon)

Re: maliani post # 19

I am not sure which of my posts you were refering to, but I will try to give an answer. I think you mis-read my posts. I don`t a care a whit for sterotypes, be they Arabs or Muslims or Muslims pretending to Arabs or what ever. There are sterotypical targets in any society and whether the Arab-Muslim is hated or liked, I really don`t care.

Also, secular laws have nothing to do with what I was saying. My only complaint was, which Altaf in his post # 21 insightfully picked up, that I do not like to give special treatment to minorities just because they happen to be different. That is my only problem with multi-ethnic mosaic which the United States is turning into. I understand that everything evolves and not to evolve, is to die slowly. I have nothing against that argument.

Like Harry Truman said, ``if you can`t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!``

Re: Altaf post # 21

You have brought up some valid points. I am not going to disagree with what you have said, since that is the reality of what is going to happen in this country. The only thing which bothers me in this debate, multiculturism, is that every distinct ethnic group is slicing a piece of the American pie and it is getting increasingly difficult to forge a consensus on any issue, due to the polarization of differing viewpoints.

As a political operative, Gods knows that I am attuned to the votes and after the Hispanic voting block, the next emergent voting block is the Muslims, but that is still a few years ahead of us. Politically speaking, the idea of a cultural mosaic is a nightmare, because in order to satisfy all competing interests, the end result is that you are making promises that are diametrically opposed to what needs to happen. This country is owned by special political interests, be they AMA, NRA, etc and with the ethnic mix, it is damn near impossible to get anything done, because none of these groups wants to compromise. The politics of this country, the judicary, executive and the legislative, operate on the basis of compromise and the system of checks and balances was meant to encourage a sense of compromise.

This against my Republican mantra, but enough is enough and this country needs to revert back to what it was supposed to be and what Jefferson wanted - a populist democracy.

Anyways, yaar, thanks for bring some sanity into this discussion. It was spinning out of control!

Feroze:

maliani may have stumbled on to something very important-----roll the dice( as you say)-----take a cold shower (as he says) and think up of some new opening lines----Valentine`s day is round the corner!

regards

Re Frozk:

I suggest you take a cold shower - cause what you say makes no sense ;-)

But anyway, this hatred/stereotype is not new for immigrants coming to US. In the past, Irish, Italians, Chinese, Latins, all have been targets of stereotypes. Arabs are the current targets, and since we are mostly muslims (and some of us try to associate with Arabs) - are (wrongfully) considered Arabs as well. But by in large the society here is tolerant and more importantly this country has secular laws. Unlike, the ``land of the pure`` you don`t get killed here for belonging to a different religion or sect or burnt with acid for not wearing a hijab.

BTW, Islam should not be our identity but simply a religion, our identity should be our culture.

Re: Aliya post # 15

First of all, to all Chowkwallas and to you, I sincerely apolgise for the profane language I used. You were absolutely justified in admonishing my lack of manners on that point. I stand corrected.

I hope you`ll not be too discouraged by my posts to this article, but I am going to rant on this topic. In the words of a wise and irreverent sage, named Temporal, I am going to continually stir the hornet`s nest!

As to your arguments, I disagree on the simple point that if you are going to mess with the bull, you are going to get the horns. Aliya bibi, I have been kicked, punched, had my shoulder broken and have a few scars from some close encounters with a knife. I have been threatend with death on more than one occassion. The only reason that I am still here, is because I did not back down. I could have folded my tents and could easily have drifted off into the night, but I did not. I stood my ground and I fought my fights. I lost a few and I won some. Thats life, you roll the iron dice and you take your chances.

When I first came to this continent, in Canada, and later in these states, I had to fight tooth and nail for everything. I never expected anything to be handed to me on a silver plate and I knew that I had to be thrice as good as any other American. During my senior semester, I lived on top ramen and I still remember going to sleep with hunger pangs. I never asked for a quarter in any fight, because I knew none would be given to me.

This is where my resentment springs from. The immigrants, regardless of their national origins, who come here, expect everything to be handed to them and that this is the land of milk and honey. Yes, it is free, but you have to pay your dues before you can dine on a feast of milk and honey. This is specially true of the Hispanics. They are not willing to assimilate in the main stream and they are determined to keep their old ways. I have nothing against that, but what angers me is when they ask me to subsidize their cultural traditions. Being an early arrival myself, do I have the right to judge those before me? Yes, I do. I will not stand by while the events which influence my life unfold around me. If I see something which irks me, I will not turn around and go and sulk in some corner, but I will protest and I will rage against it.

Aliya bibi, the only reason I have survivied this harsh, cold and alien land, is because I learned the ways of the street. The life of an immigrant in this country is a street fight. It is not fought with Queensbury rules; it is not a fair fight. It is a dirty fight. In a street fight, Aliya bibi, if you do not put your opponent down, he is going to put you down and if you lose, you have no one to blame but yourself. Everything I do is for the brass ring, because there is no prize for coming second in this culture and there are two kinds of people in this culture; those that exploit and those who get exploited.

I apolgise for Zehra for using her article as a forum for this sort of sentiment, but that is the reality I face every day. Aliya bibi, the world may preach equality, but it will never practice what it preaches. In a perfect world, things may make sense, but this not a perfect world we live in and I react to, in trying to live, the reality as it exists and not I what I would wish it to be.

Zehra:

My apologies! stand corrected.

Feroze:

Left an interact on the other thread-MATTER OF P.

regards

Zehra

Darn!! I was thinking about writing something along

the same lines... but gave up after i realized it

would have to be a trilogy ..

Part1--

`` Growing up a British/Pakistani Muslim in Saudi

Arabia where everyone kicks u around for being

non-arab...``

Part 2--

`` Continuing Growing up as a British/Pakistani

Muslim in Pakistan where u are kicked around coz yer

parents were not born in the boundaries of Pakistan``

Part 3--

`` Kinda grown-up British/Pakistani Muslim.. back

in Britain trying to figure out, `what the hell is

going on?` ``

I wanted to jump in the discussion...but the smog in karachi has clogged my brain ... i doubt i`ll say anything

intelligent. Besides .. the regulars are doing a good job .. i think i`ll just read and be enlightened.

ArtZ

Ferozk: You may not like it buddy, but Latinos, their culture, the Spanish language is here to stay in America. In many of the large cities of the US, it is the Latino which is the largest block of votes. In much of California, they are the majority... and it is that culture and that politics that will in the coming decades determine how the US evolves. Thankfully, they are a tolerant lot, far more so than whites, or other immigrants including the south asians... Don`t worry you won`t have to subsidize anything too much too long... since that culture is poised to be the dominant culture in the US, at least on both sides of the coasts, the southwest, and increasingly in the mid-west... Desis might well get some fovor out of this, since there are many cultural similarities... provided they don`t get wind of the recationaryism within the south asian communities in the US.

Re: Ferozk:
Aray aray baba itna ghussa, such profane language, it doesn’t become you Khan Sahib.
You Say:
``all I can say is get used to it! It is the same with the native Americans who complain about the loss of their ancestral lands to the white men. My one and only answer for these people with hurt and wounded nostalgia for the past is, ``well, you should have fought harder, shouldn`t you?`` The language of this country is English -``

If one were to take up your position, all the people who were conquered should lose their languages as a price (something that fortunately didn’t happen in the subcontinent, or Africa, or..... ….). This inhumane practice hopefully ended with slavery.

Someone might say that it is not your (the newest of immigrants ) place to chastise the natives of the land for not being ruthless enough when they were attacked with foreign diseases and weapons.

Because a group of people killed more natives than the other way around does not make it OK to defend all their future actions. Hopefully, even if they managed to ``win``, most civilized nations will continue to enrich themselves by the diversity in culture and language, which is why the old method of destroying all that was indigenous has long ago been abandoned by most civilized ``conquerors``.

Nice article Zahra! I especially liked the way you dealt with the issue of the pledge of allegience. I just stood quietly, not being an American citizen at the time i was in middle school, but i certainly remember that EVERYDAY nonsense. In retrospect, growing up in Karachi I remember have to sing ``PAK SAR ZAMEEN``, which also seems like nonsense now, considering we were then under the rule of the dictator Zia. You certainly didn`t make an unusual comment about the Oklahoma City bombing, i thought it was Muslims too, initially! But the press totally assumed it was middle east related like a knee jerk reaction.

Can we really blame them though? Afterall, all the stuff that makes the headline news that involves Muslims is pretty negative stuff in general. (Lets not get into the issue of who decides what qualifies as News per se) I definitely also can relate to your social studies grade 9 experience. Mine however was NOT a positive experience. Faced a similar situation in N.Y. But, the most embarrasing aspect of it was the lecture on Islam that a 70 yr old x-Punjab University Prof Dr.Moizuddin? [he taught at P.U for 30 yrs] (who happened to be a substitute teacher in the high school) gave to the class as he was invited as a guest speaker. Some of the issues he discussed, and the way he discussed them really made me sqirm in my seat and want to hide under the desk.

Issue #1 The importance Pakistani culture & Islam place on the Virginity of unmarried girls. Her, ``most precious jewel/ornament.``

Issue #2 Pork. Why don`t Muslims eat it ? Well, it ``encourages shamelessness.`` Why? Well thankfully he didn`t elaborate any further. His theory was apparently that it increased women`s sex drives. (It would have been better if he had just described the facts of early Islamic history that led to the banning of pork: namely, people had been dying after eating pork because the worms form cysts around them that could not be killed by fire & furthermore, that pigs eat their own excrement and therefore are FILTHY animals unfit for human consumption).

Being a VERY ANTI-HIJAB person myself, I can`t empathize with you on this issue. I would never permit this in my own family (when I have one, or if i had a sister, perhaps even if she wanted to), since I sincerely believe it is a symbol of the enforced stagnation in thinking prevelant in Islam. On the other hand, I will defend your right to wear it, though i disapprove of your choice personally. Operant Conditioning. The reason why women wear it, and feel self empowered. (Cause I know you`ll say this, its fashionable to say its a product of free choice)Its really just a male trick on women to make them wear it to begin with, a means of control, and to inclucate the value of modesty in women initially (remember how Violent Hazrat Omar (pbuh) could be towards his own sister & brother in law when he found they converted, imagine him and others who honestly, albeit mistakenly believed that G-D mandated Hijab, and you can see clearly how it all started), and then let mothers pass it on to daughters and make them proud of actually wearing it. Yes, when you`re under fire it begins to feel like its part of the seperate/different identity that`s under seige and so much a part of you but it really just goes back to the days your great great et al grandma was told by society she MUST wear it, and then just passed it/inclucated it in on to her daughter as a positive social value/good, and it just continued onwards. Do u really have a choice?

Nope, more like an APPARENT CHOICE. You have the freedom not to wear it if you choose and your family is willing to let u, BUT here`s the really deceptive part. Patriachical Muslim society in N.America knows full well that at the age of 18 you are an adult, and can leave home if you choose, (and wear whatever you want)[and unlike Pakistan, Parents cannot confine you against your will, use the police/state power of the courts aginst you, example. Humerira/Butt case, so they need for you to believe in your consent, kind of like the situation in Somalia where WOMEN circumcise other women and create the pressure to do so, but initially and even today female circumcision is a form of male control over women, to deprive them of the pleasure of sex and by eliminating sexual desire, reducing the chance of MEN being made cuckolds, with all the communal loss of face that entails] so it fosters the value of the WORTHIER choice, the self- sacrificing choice, it tells you when you are young and follow their wishes unquestioningly, kei, ``beeti, sahih rasta kabhi aasaan nahinh hota, ghalat rasta hameesha aasaan hota hai``. I.E The morally right path will not be easy, but the wrong path will always be easier to travel. When you`re young this impresses upon you the feeling of martyrdom, afterall, you need something to keep you going since you can`t have a normal N.American social life and you know this early on (that you are different, so in order to withstand the pressure from the outside world, you need to at least have the feeling of noble sacrifice within u, which is precisely what patriarchial society allows you to do and fosters). So from within you has to come the power, the feeling of one individual standing up against the crowd, which can only be justified if you feel that sometimes the crowd can be wrong and the individual right, in standing up with a different view/way of life. Ofcouse in a tolerant society like the U.S this is possible. In Pakistan, it just leads to massacres in mosques, and the abductions of baligh (legally adult) women who are free according to G-D`s law to marry whomsoever they choose. Here in N.America you can choose to be different and defy social conventions, but the land of your parent`s birth is not so tolerant of individuals who ``defy`` social customs. In fact, they are branded as trouble makers and hounded.

Any Comments ?

Re: Amin Saleh post # 10

Thanks! It was nice knowing you are a Canadian!

My reference to language rights was not intended to cover all of North America, but apply to Quebec only. I know there is Chinese spoken in Vancouver (I miss having tea at the Victoria hotel), but it is only in Quebec, where the French speaking population is determined to enforce French as the only lingua franca of the province. As to the language police, it is not the offical provincial police, but groups of Quebecois who have created a self styled watch dog lobby which tells the authorities about English signs. The Quebec parliament passed a bill, Bill 101, which makes it illegal to post signs in English.

Re: Zehra

What ever! Polisci is about exploiting and abusing the system; who wants to care about cultural non sense? Take my advice, go pre-law and then go to a law school and become a lawyer and screw every one, legally, in sight!!!:)

Re: Temporal post # 5

Oye yaar what are doing to me?!

I tell you buddy, race baiting is such a fun way to get a reaction out of people! No wonder why politicans love to play this issue. Rabble rousing, that is the way to go!! Since I am in self confessing mood, I admit, on the record, that I am an equal opportunity discriminator. I hate every one equally without passion or prejudice!!! So bring it on, I am ready to rumble!

Re: afrasiyab post # 6

Getting serious, the reason that I dislike the idea of mosaic is that it preserves the identity, past history and cultural affinities of a group. Under the assumption of a mosiac based society is the simmering feelings of a distinct group nationalism. This dynamic may be mooted, but it always exists and there is always a person willing to exploit it.

It is for this reason that I prefer the American melting pot. As Rishi said, the idea of the melting pot has evolved and is mostly non-applicable to the new immigrants, but still, that does not lessen the value of the idea. The melting pot erases all different nationalistic traits. In socities like the Canadian or the American, most immigrants come here to escape their old political and religious animosities.

A mosaic preserves those emotions, habits or traits, but a melting pot dilutes them over a period of time.

In other words, what is the point of moving your self across the ocean in search for a better life and still drag along the baggage of the old world with all its hate, rancour and bitterness with you? If you want to preserve the life that forced you to move, why move and why not stay where you are!

As to Aliya`s contention to Rishi about offending the sensibilities of the Spainish speaking population, all I can say is get used to it! It is the same with the native Americans who complain about the loss of their ancestral lands to the white men. My one and only answer for these people with hurt and wounded nostalgia for the past is, ``well, you should have fought harder, shouldn`t you?`` The language of this country is English - so either swim or sink, the choice is yours, but don`t blame the society for your short comings!

I am sick and tired of comforting these cry babies and giving them everything on a silver plater. There is racism every where and that is a fact of life. No one is going to love you because you are different and to demand so, is utterly sophmoric. Either you can stand up to racism or you can play the victim. Speaking for myself, the only way to deal with racists fucknuts is look them straight in the eye and promise and tell those sons of bitches to go to hell!!!!!!

gulf war was a turning point for many of us going through high schools and junior highs in amreeka-canada. it made something that might not have been a issue into something more just a issue. it is interesting to see so many different reactions to this piece some more engaging than others

but i think the writing here is refreshinly clear and honest. i don`t think the author makes any judgment calls or distinctions between fobs and abcd`s (re: first reply to this piece. by the way i am a fob so i have the license to use the term). but she is simply observing how she is percieved and categorized due to her subject position and how that differs from what how she percieves herself.

temporal,

let me welcome you to chowk..i was published once before with an original piece which i guess the chowk staff forgot to add to my list of ``other articles by F. Zehra Rizvi`` its called ``the temptress at barnes and noble``.

re: all

i am strapped for time but love that the first time i lay eyes on my piece at chowk, we have ten replies already posted. i am really hoping for some constructive discussion on one of my favorite topics of discussions..the melting pot and our place in the stew. (the siberia north to the US not to be forgotten..my aunts tell of harrowing tales of discrimination in canada when they first got off the boat in the late 60`s and early 70`s).

re:ferozk

whats the use of polisci again? art history..now THAT opens up so much. not only does it speak of culture, but history and also politics..covering more ground that way..its not so much one dimensional. trouble is, there is too much i want to do and therefore keep wavering between everythign i set my eyes on...i need to close my eyes and just start getting things done.

rizvi.