Growing up an American Muslim

HAPPY BIRTHDAY ZEHRA !!!

MAY YOU HAVE MANY MORE !!!

HAPPY BIRTHDAY ZEHRA !!!

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO U !!!

lETS all raise a glass and imbibe a Toast to celebrate Zehra`s 21st birthday. Will she be visting the local pub/bar around campus? Don`t hold your breath folks .... although i do find the description of the hijab wearer in Sex Everywhere a trifle amusing. But seriously, enough already, Lets not allow the Hijab to be

used as a yardstick to measure her individuality and make what may be unjustified assumptions about her personally.

Cheers

OMAR1974

Re: Ferozk #100

Given these three conditions, it is reasonable, if not certain, to suggest that Islamic idenity would have metamorphed and mutated in reaction to and with the European influences surrounding it.

OMAR1974: Dear Feroz I hate to disagree with u, but I will. I think if the Battle of Tours had indeed been won in 732, the Arabs would have pushed much deeper into W.Europe than you seem to assume, however as for a metamorphosis of Islam ? Debatable. For starters, I have a strong feeling that while Arabs were certainly partial to both blondes (the last Arab ruler Abd-ul-Radman? had 1% Arab blood i recall reading somewhere) and wine, Non Arab MUSLIMS would have overtaken the rule of the Arabs by today, I have in mind the N.African brand of Islam, and you can forget about indulging in wine & cheese tasting festivals with those guys in charge. (Syed Qutb, Maudoodi et al`s brand of Islam). BTW, enjoyed the digression :)

Cheers,

OMAR1974

ferozk: one of these days i`ll lend you my tie dye hijab...it is `the` latest in hijab wear...we are trying to come up with some catchy slogan to promote the line..like, the salon slectives ad..have some men in beards singing across the street..who`s that lady? who`s that laaady?

or even have some emaciated heroin addicted hijabis with great bods whispering things like..under where? under here...or my personal fave..a spin on that indian number..hijab kay neechay kiya hai hijab kay neechay, nikab kay peechay kya hai, nikab kay peechay..

i think we will run a survey to see which one of these ideas gel..mebbe i will take it to the next ISNA conference.

ps..my birthday is this wednesday..mebbe you can get me one for all my 21 tender years.

rizvi

Re: Zehra

While I was downtown this afternoon, I saw a whole gaggle of hijabs walking on the other side of the street! Most of the colors were white, but some were darker colors....

Is there a color requirement....can you wear a hijab that has polka dots on it?

How about one which has the characters from Stars Wars printed on them....can imagine Darth Vader saying, ``fight your hijab Zehra and come to the dark side, Zehra.......``

Laters...:)

re maliani: you said in a post along time ago in this piece : ``BTW, Islam should not be our identity but simply a religion, our identity should be our culture.`` this is the same argument you are trying to preesnt currently again. you are mistaken in assuming that ther is only one answer as to where the religion we lovingly call Islam came from...there is no one right answer and instead of etching into stone your answer..consider the alternatives..( which have been presented in this ongoing discussion).

back to the honor killings..how about a petition to the governments..has anyone come across any as of yet? i would imagine they are all over the net at this point..maybe even a petition to our own government (applies to US readers) to sanction the governments who do not strengthen their laws regarding the honor crimes. it would mean ofcourse, tightening sanctions on an already unsteady pakistan but what can be done? has anyone heard from cair or icna etcetc.? anyone on their mailing list? i haven`t joined any of their email lists for fear of getting the `hadith a day that will keep the devil away`. money can be sent to the hotlines and orgaznizations within these countries who are trying to stop the honor crimes and to protect the women who run away from home for fear of their lives. i know that such organizations exist in Jordan and in Israel. Also, just FYI, the abc website has the two day interview on their site if anyone wants to take alook at it. its the transcript or atleast a part of it..i haven`t been able to go thru it all as of yet. please let me know if anyone has any other info...also, if you are interested if i find out more info please let me know either by email or interact....i don`t want to have to use this forum needlessly.

bina: if you have any info on the type of work going on in pakistan, (beyond the scope of the interview) could you share with us please?

rizvi

re bina and maliani
``Sindh is not immune to honor killings, just because Shah Abdul Latif Bhitai wrote some beautiful poetry``

bina makes a very valid point. maliani, could you explain?

Maliani wrote:

``Islam has incorporated lot of Pagan Arab customs.``

Sorry, that is erronous. `Muslims` adopted pagan arab customs or pagan Indian customs not Islam.



Maliani wrote:

``Secondly, there is a clause i mentioned in the nikkah nama - you should read carefully if you have one ;-) i have one and i know!``

I don`t have one fortuenately, I guess or unfortuenately, whichever way you wanna look at it:) Why don`t you provide me with the wordings and the clause number of that nikahnama. It will help. Also, you must realize that by the token of my earlier arguement the point about PAKISTANI laws is moot. They are not all Islamic, infact, I can`t think of anyone that is by letter or by spirit in conformity with Islam.

Maliani wrote:

``Getting back to my point, Islamic law (sharia), suggests that a single woman who loses her virginity should suffer 100 lashes after proof is obtained. And for an Adultress the sentence is death by stoning. So basically Islam is encouraging violence.``

I don`t know where you are getting this from. Please refer to the sources and if possible post them with your reply. Thanx. Look forward to a reply from you soon.

PS I was wondering, if maybe, we should take this discussion elsewhere, since this section has over a hundred replies on it already.

What do you say.

Afrasiyab wrote:
``First of all Pakistani customs and even Arab customs should not be used as examples of religious orders. Secondly, I don`t remember this clause that you are talking about in the Pakistani Nikahnama.``

Perhaps I am wrong (in case of Pakistan), but Islam emerged as an Arab religion and therefore their culture/customs should be considered when discussing Islam. Islam has incorporated lot of Pagan Arab customs and i don`t want to go into those details here.

Secondly, there is a clause i mentioned in the nikkah nama - you should read carefully if you have one ;-) i have one and i know!

Getting back to my point, Islamic law (sharia), suggests that a single woman who loses her virginity should suffer 100 lashes after proof is obtained. And for an Adultress the sentence is death by stoning. So basically Islam is encouraging violence.

Sindh is not immune to honor killings, just because Shah Abdul Latif Bhitai wrote some beautiful poetry. As part of my heritage, I also get to have the lovely tradition of karo-kari, in which usually the man goes free but the woman is the one that gets killed.

But, good news - just yesterday, in the court case of Humaira and Mahmood Butt (she married him of her own free choice, the parents had her caught, arrested, and produced a trumped up court case of zina against her as they claimed she had married her cousin and even produced a wedding video - in which she was weeping and completely upset), the judge upheld their marriage as legal and threw the case out of court!

The policeman who had Humaira jailed was himself jailed and ordered to pay a fine for the gross violation of justice.

i need someone to go over exactly what the hudood ordinance and the zina laws are...i would prefer that the history behind them also be elaborated on...

faraz, how possible do you think it is to repeal these laws in pakistan as you mentioned in your post and is there work being done in that vein of thinking?

my mom was able to see both parts of the program and unfortuantely did not tape any of it...while we were living in pakistan , my siblings and i, it seems, led an almost sequestered life in a bubble..my horror at what was happening was met by a matter of fact attitude and a disbelief on both our parts..on my part that it was happening and on my mothers part for my being so naive. she takes it for granted that i would know about the lives of the people she kept me hidden from..the stories that were whispered with my aya but not shared with us. i guess i was supposed to get this sordid side of pakistan thru osmosis. i think we just lost track of time and by the time i was old enough to talk about it with my mother it was no longer in the forefront of our priorities...espcailly since we were in the states. this is what i am afraid of...once this news is no longer in the forefront, what will happen to these women? its not like its stopping now but atleast there is light on the issue and something can be done.

what is really distressing is that it is the women (this is all heresay, i have not been able to watch either part one or two as of yet), are the ones who are prepetuating these crimes. the women are not standing up agaisnt it. they need somehow to realize that these killings are in no way, what so ever islamic or rational.

i think the one mistake that people going in to help make is that we do not speak the language of these women..i am not speaking about urdu..you could go in there and tell them in urdu that they shouldn`t stand up for what is happening and that they have just as equal rights as men and how many of them do you think would actully agree with you...very few..speak to them in their language. tell them what the islamic law is..it does not say to kill a woman just for leaving the house without permission or it does not say to kill her for talking to a male cousin or sumthing. speaking the vernacular of the people in a way that they will understand is what is importnat here. i mean, no offense to asma jehnagir`s work or to her, but i can just imagine how much these women can relate to her in her nice house and nice car...not very much.

did anyone tape the show? i need a copy.

chowk should set up a place where items like this can be placed up for sale (thru abc, no breaking the law in that) and proceeds go to these women.

i would like to continue but i find that words are just not doing it for me right now and in fear of being inarticulate i will stop now.

rizvi

Maliani wrote:

``Muslim customs and religion dictate that a woman must be a virgin before marriage. In fact if you look at Pakistani Nikah nama forms, one of the question is about bride`s virginity but there is no question about groom`s virginity.``

First of all Pakistani customs and even Arab customs should not be used as examples of religious orders. Secondly, I don`t remember this clause that you are talking about in the Pakistani Nikahnama.

I don`t know why most people assume just like the myth that all arabs are muslims that all their customs also come from Islam.

You must also remember that some of the most heinous crimes that are ccommitted in our society are due to following the customs of the region before Islam. You are trying to paint Islam as the problem here which is exactly contrary to what Riffat Hassan and Aasma Jahangir said during these presentations on ABC.

Re: Faraz

I agree with Zehra. Honour killings are common in the arab world. In fact an earlier show was about honor killings in the arab countries. In fact there is quite an activity among arab feminists to stop honour killings. The sad thing is that it happens in Palestine as well where women have struggled side by side with their men. I had read somewhere that Female PLO freedom fighters have been harrased as well.

Muslim customs and religion dictate that a woman must be a virgin before marriage. In fact if you look at Pakistani Nikah nama forms, one of the question is about bride`s virginity but there is no question about groom`s virginity.

I guess what i am trying to say is that we must have picked this up from the Arabs or invading Turks. Historically, Indus Valley civilization is alien to such violent culture. Our culture is full of love stories. We had strong Sufi traditions and love is the highest value to a sufi. If anyone of you has read Shah Latif then you would know that Women in Shah`s poetry are the central character, the heroines: and they are dynamic, uninhibited, independent minded, autonomous, dedicated, and persistent. Women in Shah do not respect social tradition, only their independent heart`s calling.

Here a couple of verses from Shah:

``adiyuun varu ughaarra, vihaanu jehen visaariyo
jeddiyuun! chhadde jaarra, sabhi nangiyuun thii nikro``

Trans:
``Sisters! success is theirs, who abondan vanity.
Become naked [1] and come out.``

[1] uninhibited

``sabhi nangiyuun thii nikro, laalacha chhadde lobha
supriyaan siin sobha, ninddruun kande na thiye``

Trans:
``By giving up avarice, greed and clothing [2]
set out for the desired goal.
Success with the beloved cannot be achieved merely by sleeping.``

[2] the veil, inhibitions

Re: RR post # 109

It was good to ``read`` you again!

You have brought a valid point. The Jewish experience in this country is a textbook example on how to organize political support and earn legitimacy within the establishment hierarchy.

As to the Pakistanis doing something similar, there is a past precedent. Senator Larry Pressler was defeated for re-election when the Pakistanis living in the States began to support the Democratic candidate running against him. It was the first time, that I could remember, when the Pakistani community used its political muscles and financial dollars to influence a decision.

Since then there has been no focus in the last elections, but the defeat of Sen. Pressler proves that Pakistanis, Indians can influence US politics through contributions supporting a specific candidate, influencing election results through voting, mobilizing grassroots efforts etc.

Good point Rehan. It can be done and it was done, but it needs to a sustained effort over the duration to have a marked effect and should not be just an ad hoc approach to the problem.

Thanks for tangent!

Re: Abc show, & Faraz`s comments

I really think Faraz in his post, especially the last paragraph has it right. The first thing that must be done to stop the honor killings is to impart education to these people. 2ndly, in order to break the hold of patriarchical society over these women, it is necessary to instill in them the notion of equality with men. This cannot be imparted if they are restricted at the will of their male relatives to the chardivari of the house thru the custom of purdah, or treated as a special class of chattal (for they are not treated like human beings) that must don the hijab, and this is force fed to them at an early age through the institutions of so called CULTURE, TRADITION & RELIGION. How can they (these abused women) be exprected to break free

from from the shackles that bind them, if their educated sisters themselves justify the institution of separate treatment for women,from men, by actually donning the hijab, and thus reinforcing patriarchical social roles/(gender based ofcourse), which hold the uneducated women back in the first place! Like I have said before its all a male trick to dupe women into being submissive and docile, in order to deprive them of their rights and to insure that AN ASSERTIVE WOMAN is an oxymoron in that society, i,e a contradiction in terms.

Re: Abc show, & Faraz`s comments

I really think Faraz in his post, especially the last paragraph has it right. The first thing that must be done to stop the honor killings is to impart education to these people. 2ndly, in order to break the hold of patriarchical society over these women, it is necessary to instill in them the notion of equality with men. This cannot be imparted if they are restricted at the will of their male relatives to the chardivari of the house thru the custom of purdah, or treated as a special class of chattal (for they are not treated like human beings) that must don the hijab, and this is force fed to them at an early age through the institutions of so called CULTURE, TRADITION & RELIGION. How can they (these abused women) be exprected to break free

from from the shackles that bind them, if their educated sisters themselves justify the institution of separate treatment for women,from men, by actually donning the hijab, and thus reinforcing patriarchical social roles/(gender based ofcourse), which hold the uneducated women back in the first place! Like I have said before its all a male trick to dupe women into being submissive and docile, in order to deprive them of their rights and to insure that AN ASSERTIVE WOMAN is an oxymoron in that society, i,e a contradiction in terms.

Re: Zehra

I`m not entirely sure about the Arab culture bit. I`m sure it happens there too, but in Pakistan we also have local cultural influences that propagate this sort of behavior. For example, the Pathan zan, zar and zameen code does not contain anything overtly oppressive but does contribute to men feeling a need to control their honor by controlling their women ( asignificant portion of the cases occur in NWFP). Then various hindu traditions remain in Pakistan, such as doweries, that lead to violence amongst women. So while women are repressed all over the Islamic world our fundos have also incorporated local traditions in to their fanaticism.

Regarding what can be done, you are right it very futile to tsk tsk away. For starters, I think it is imperative that both men and women start standing up for these victims instead of shunning them...and that the so-called ``state`` (as if we have one)start prosecuting these idiots. And here`s one that might actually bring us in to the 20th century; repeal the zina laws and hudood ordinance.(I promise it won`t lead to the degeneration of moral values)

However, as I mentioned in my last post the primary cause of almost all of Pakistan`s social ills is a lack of education (something I think the documentary failed to highlight). And that should be our goal as a nation, to ensure that our citizens can read and write. I think there are some philanthropic organizations devoted to this cause, notably The Citizen`s Foundation.

If you look at women`s development in Islamic society in terms of education, I think the clear leader is Iran (I am not sure about this). It would be interesting to see the degree of domestic violence in that society.

This is a tangent, but another root cause of our problems is the concept of Sharam (Something that Rushdie shows quite brillinalty in his novel ``Shame``.) Everything we do is centered around our need to avoid shame, and most causes of our shame are related to women. And what is it they say to little kids when they do something bad: ``sharam nahin aatee?`` If the primary problem of the U.S. is the lack of shame in this culture, then our problem is quite the opposite.

Yesterday in the documentary they showed a fundo rally held during the riots over that love marriage (I forget the couple`s names).The mullah in charge said to his very emotional male audience ``kya aap yeh bardash karain gay keh aap keee bhain ya bhetee key saath love ishtory (story) hoi?``

Nahin Qazi Sahib, Khudaa maree bhaetee ko kabhee sacha pyaar na naseeb karai.

Faraz

ps The 1st part I was referring to the part of the documentary that aired Monday night.