Growing up an American Muslim

Zehra says: why spread islam in the awful way that it was after rasool (pbuh)? the awful way meaning with the sword..i mean you very well cannot according to islam force it down peoples throats right? so what you going to do with all that power? all thats going to happen is that certain mullahs will come into power and take peoples rights away, force everyone to grow beards and wear hijab and sites like chowk that garner free thinking will be banned forever. allahkhair karay if such a world come about.

Dear Zehra Islam for your kind information was NOT spread by the sword. The Arabs were very surprised when the dhimmis started to convert. They did not expect it. They preferred an Islam dominated by the Arabs, since like every other nationality in history they believed themselves to be chosen by G-D. The muslim converts were distinctly treated like 2nd class citizens in the hierarchy of power. About the only coercision that might be said to have compelled the mass conversion was the special head tax levied on dhimmis. The Arabs by and large initially left the cities to be run as they found them. It was the incentive provided by the head tax that probably led to the mass conversions to Islam.

I`m curious, are you saying Zehra that you are glad in a way that Charles Martel in the battle of Tours, 732 A.D defeated the Arabs and stopped them at the gates of Western Europe? I have often myself asked that question ... would this be a better world if Islam had triumphed over Western Europe back then, and the Americas had been discovered (and colonized later) by Muslim sailors as opposed to C.Columbus? Lets not get into the side debate over who DISCOVERED what, and what that word means.



OMAR1974

Lets not politicise Valentine`s day! I know BG`s politics are quite left leaning, but MUST EVERYTHING be labelled a great Capitalist Conspiracy?

Ferozk : I disagree with your choice of wines, Rose, (Portugese) chilled, at about $15/bottle would be my choice, but my gf wound up taking me out to dinner. How`s that for feminist equality!

OMAR

Re: Zehra, BG and Omar1974 on Valentine`s Day!

Omar, what are you thinking...75 bucks for a dozen roses! One rose is more than enough to do the trick. Dating is like investing in the stockmarket...you should pick your stocks real carefully and then invest, only if there is a promise of a solid return later on!

I agree with you; Cupid Day costs too much, but there are ways to get around that. Here is how to have a Valentine`s Day for around $50 dollars.

One; kick your roommates out! Two cook a meal (pasta, or whatever you like) and serve it in an elegant way; candle light dinner for two with some romantic CD playing in the background.... Buy yourself,if you drink, a nice bottle of wine: merlot is an excellent choice, because it is not too heavy and has fruity flavors with a hint of oaky finish, from the barrels. A claret is an exceptional choice, but it is a full flavored wine, and most girls shy away from it. Pinot grise is another excellent choice...Rent a chick flick that she likes...turn the lights down (helps to have dimmer switch) and just be there for her! :)

She will like the attention she is getting and remember, it is all in the presentation....! As far as the meaningful conversations go, looks speak more than mere words and pretend that you are really attentive to what she is saying....here is how you do it, just keep saying: really...I didn`t know that....you`re kidding me...I am sorry what was that again...that will keep the conversation going in a ``repeat mode``! Let her do the talking and just keep agreeing with her! :)

BG; I just put the disclaimer in the case people sued me for libel..no offense taken!

The Valentine`s Day is a mutation from the pagan Roman holiday of fertility celebrating spring. It was called the Feast of Lupress (I think that is the correct spelling) and it was a wild party. It was not an orgy! A Roman orgy BTW, has nothing to do with it sex - it is about stuffing yourself with food and then puking and eating like a pig again! the closest modern contempory example would be an all you can eat shrimp deal at the local Red Lobster!

The Catholic Church has kept a lot of pagan tradtions and holidays, but changed their symbolism! Trust religion to that...

Zehra, easy there! Me thinks that you need talk with Oliver Stone! I betcha ya, the phone company after killing Kennedy, came up with Valentines Day and Momma and Papa days, as a massive cover up to keep the Americans from guessing that Mickey Mouse is the one running this country! And while I am at it, do you know that Alan Greenspan, the Chairman of Fed Reserves is an alien...yup! He is on a scouting mission to confuse us so that we do not put up a fight when the aliens invade us! Agent Mulder is working on it...he has secret government files which show that Old Faithful, in the Yellowstone National Park, is in reality a top secret homing device for the alien invasion ships...

alien or not, Greenspan is a great economist..now only if the leaders of this country actually listened to what he was saying and implemented that..

ferozk...remind me to never date you.

rizvi

re OMAR1974

``Just cause you dont get some/any is no reason to wanna puke.``

that`s not the reason, it is explained below:

``This is one American custom which is definitely a way of saying to that special someone that I Love U/I thought about U/You mean
something to me. Cant imagine why you hate V-Day!
Curious to know your reasons.``

just `cause you asked:

omar, love is one of the most important forces in this world. and, when i say, forces, i dont mean just romantic love that is packaged and sold by hallmark and florists on valentine`s day.

by all means show people how much you love them, tell them EVERYDAY that you love them. why wait for once a year and show them in a way that is determined by hallmark? why should hallmark and florists decide how we should show our love? heart shaped red/pink everything. is that the true symbol of love? who decided that? why only feb14? why cant we show our love EVERYDAY, not with flowers and a stuffed teddy bear, but by trusting those we love, believing they are worthy of the best in life, showing our respect for them, for their dreams, not taking it out on them if we had a bad day at work, really listening to them, paying attention to what they like and who they are.

its sad to see the commercialization of everything, including relationships and feelings. that`s what makes me puke.

giki19: you can be whomever you want to be. some choose nationality as their first identity, some choose religion and others choose ethnicity. its all up to the individual. i don`t know how i feel about all thse conspiracy type theories of muslims taking over the world etc and how that scares the westerners...for one reason alone..what is the point of taking over the world..i mean reallly..what are you going to do with all that power..spread islam? puhleeze..why spread islam in the awful way that it was after rasool (pbuh)? the awful way meaning with the sword..i mean you very well cannot according to islam force it down peoples throats right? so what you going to do with all that power? all thats going to happen is that certain mullahs will come into power and take peoples rights away, force everyone to grow beards and wear hijab and sites like chowk that garner free thinking will be banned forever. allahkhair karay if such a world come about.

ferozk, temporal (your eyes might hurt, im not good about the typos) and Bg..on the chowk world. very nicely timed piece just got put up about the chowk world. for me it has symbolized..or rather Had symbolized a place where i could come and just be and think freely and not be judged on my thinking. i see i got placed among the activists for my not so mainstream ideas and way of thinking or rather way of living that i project. you are too kind. i saw ferozk`s picture of chowk too bland and too black and white....we are afterall msotly brown and this is what we embrace and celebrate in this cyber world. i don`t feel too much a citizen of of it as some seem to but i do definetlty feel a part of it. as for the new immigrants comming in to mix with the old...i consider myself as the first wave of immigrants who came in..people like Anita and BG, saima and sr have been here ( the natives..along with umair and rad and all the others im missing out) and will continue to enlighten us with their ideas and commentary and its great to think that i came on into this world, not so much by mistake but that i was able to find my place and was welcomed and also made part of a growing community. im here to welcome new people like, for instance Zed ( who i found out was my best friend in third grade, we both loved english..it is such a small world isn`t it?). umair and i share a friend who had first mentioned the site to me and he reminisces about when umair had told him all about it and he is amazed at the way it has just taken off. i am amazed constantly by the new ideas and also at my narrow-mindedness at thinking that doctors and engineers could not write as well as they do. that if anything takes me most by surprise. there is a nation of thinkers and philosophers out there in south asia and they are just getting the chance to see waht it is like to be published and how their work is received. anyhow, i liked bg`s version of it much more than yours feroz..but perhaps we should move this discussion on to the new piece that was just posted about this. :)

re: v-day. its so absolutely pointelss to have a day called valentines day. it is one of the most commercialized non secular holidays that has NO point at all wahtsoever unless you own a hallmark store. then ofcourse, you are rolling in the dough. its ridiculous that only ONE day out of the whole year is when you let your loved ones know that they are loved. not only that but for those who are lonley and are not happy about it to begin with are just reminded of this fact. those who are happy being just who they are and don`t feel the need for a sgnificant other begin to wonder about themselves around this time of year and it causes them to second guess their lives. i was walking with some flowers on friday and i had most of the women on the streets just gaze at me longingly. i have never been so disturbed. what disturned me most is that these women would probably not feel this way if it were not instilled in them through commercials and society that it is NOT OK To be unattached. people who say they hate valentines day are usually stigmatized as those who coldnt get dates and had no one who loved them. trust me..there are people out there who are plenty loved but still don`t see the point of valentines day. i mean, buying these expensive roses and making sure the movie you need to see is not sold out not to mention the restuarant you need to take your date out to..i mean come on..couldnlt you just do it some other day? it might actually mean more to that special somone then..you telling them you love them on just any ole day...there are many counter arguments to having v-day, like why then have mothers day and fathers day, teachers day etcetc...its all the capitalist conspircay ofcourse but the other holidays don`t cause unattached men and women feel pressure to be attached. imagine having something like this in pakistan on a large scale...not only are women pressured to get married, now there would be pressure to have a valentine each february lined up...talk about self esteem in that case.



for what its worth, i hope you all, in your own ways, celebrated the 14th of february, happy and content. february is a month of love, dreams and fanstasy..it being eqauted with the pisceans among us.

take care

rizvi

Re: GIKI99 (79)

``...make us Muslims the leaders of the next century.``

Wake up and smell the coffee, dude!

Bg : What is it about Valentine`s day that makes you puke? After all, its the guys who have to spend 3x the price on Roses ($75/dozen on this day). Is it the fact that Paki males just dont pay it any attention in N.A if they are married to/or dating? desi chicks?

Just cause you dont get some/any is no reason to wanna puke. This is one American custom which is definitely a way of saying to that special someone that I Love U/I thought about U/You mean something to me. Cant imagine why you hate V-Day!

Curious to know your reasons.

OMAR1974

Dear Zehra:

Thanks for referring to me as a Patriarch! Thats a term i haven`t been labelled with till now! As for asking your mommy and daddy about permission for everything, well, how about asking them if they mind your bringing over your latest heart throb from campus over to visit your home, and maybe stay over a few days? Or would you rather give them a surprise when you go back home for the summer? :)

Just trying to define the limits of acceptability & personal autonomy w/o offending anyone! :) This maybe a sensitive issue for u. But, its something which all of us should ask ourselves, and its not restricted to u alone. Think of the hijab issue as a subset of personal autonomy. Some of us have more, some less. And isint that defined primarily by our families when we are growing up?

Just cause you wear hijab does not mean you cant be as liberal as anyone else (to answer an old question u posed) or that you are a close minded freak yourself. On the other hand the words, [Zehra quote] Choice? What Choice? (with regard to your wearing the hijab that you posted in an earlier discussion) certainly make me feel that you are yourself unsure of your identity. And that is okay! So you dont have to convince us about why you are doing it, and be all defensive about it. Its okay to be unsure and express that. You dont have to give any definitive answers to me or anyone else to justify yourself. Nor do u have to represent all hijabans. Just yourself. Its also okay if your decide later in life to discard it. There is nothing for u to prove to the world by either wearing it, or refusing to wear it.

Friends? Why not. Absolutely.

My view is that there are no strangers in the world, just friends you havent met yet.

OMAR

Feroze:

Some glaring ommisions in your post---Wasiq, Beena Saima, & Shandana. The other `management` names that are not very visible were mentioned by bg.

To me Chowk is an exclusive Carribean Cruise ship, which I can board or disembark at any time thru cyber magic.

It has its main ball room, piano bar, auditorium, casino, coffee shop, several specialty dining rooms, gym----you know the routine------AND it calls on a different exotic port every day---some ports are on the map book some are not.

The un-ending pleasure of S.S. Chowk for me is that I can chose when to visit it and once onboard I can decide where to relax, sit, indulge or walk by.

Now to some specifics.

----I must argue in favour of the Management to `disembark`` rowdies. We all must behave in a responsible way....(I know, I know, sometimes your holiness and more often this scribe drag ourselves almost to the edge of precipice, where perhaps only a gentle push from the Mighty can doom us in cyberspace!)

----Resident cynic? Me? No! I merely observe submissions (read CONTENT WITH STYLE) .
Can`t stand more than three typos or errors in one article.

----It is not only old vs. new Chowkies; it is them
TOTEM POLES; Saad`s Angraziat factor; the tint in our eye glasses; the chips on our shoulders that we think we`ve shaken off: these and more make us act the way we do
(Confession: I steer clear of some pompous egos, usually followed by regret at not having punctured their inflated egos every so slightly. But if we overcame slight imperfections would`t we become perfect? The thought gives me shivers!)

Enough for now. Unlike skiing I have to run a more mundane errand.

regards

Zehra,

Very well-written, it captures the feelings of the muslims raised in the US fairly accurately

with a nice comical side to it also. The replies seem to be dominated by quite a few

Northeasterners who like to argue simple concepts using only complex terms. Being a

reformed Northeasterner now in the South, I am going to stick to the simple issues that

you have addressed in your article and here are my two cents on each of them:

1) Hijab - Honestly speaking I truly admire the young muslim girls who have ‘truly’ adapted the Hijab into their lifestyle. I emphasize the word ‘truly’ becuase despite the fact that there are some really modest and sincere girls that wear the hijab, there are also many that wear make-up and jewellry along with their hijab - this seems to defeat the whole purpose. In my opinion the hijab in essence is really only a symbol of a woman’s modesty.

Whether or not a woman wears the hijab is not as important as whether or not she carries herself and acts modestly.

Having lived a number of years in Saudi Arabia before the US, I have seen firsthand how women can act quite immodestly while hiding behind the ‘abaya’(arab equivalent of burkha). First of all the material of the abaya was such that it draped right along the shape of a woman’s body (seemed to defeat the whole purpose), secondly they often walked in a very seductive manner in public places, thirdly any part of their body that was exposed such as their hands and feet were heavily decorated with jewellry and mehendi and they frequently made a very conscious effort to display it - so despite the fact that they were covered they definitely were trying to attract the opposite sex. (having seen Arab men I wonder why?!)

As a generation-X Pakistani-American muslim I have often contemplated wearing the hijab and have arrived at the conclusion that wearing the hijab is not as important as acting modestly and respectfully in public, however, those that do wear the hijab and still act modestly are truly good muslims in my opinion.

2) Future of muslims in America - Losing the strength of our religion and culture is something that concerns many of us, however the truth is that it is not only the muslims in the US that are at risk but also the ones that live in Pakistan. From my own observations, I have found young Pakistanis of my age raised in Pakistan to be not much more knowledgeable about our religion and culture than those of us raised here in the US. Perhaps it’s because today the culture of dominance is the pop culture which cuts across geographic boundaries. Unfortunately the harsh reality is that with time the strength of our religion and culture will die down, we will perhaps become like the Italian-Americans, the Hispanic-Americans and the Jewish-Americans, who though proud of their original heritage, are neither Italians nor ‘true blue’ Americans but only Italian-Americans. Realistically speaking there is no way that we can expect our future generations brought up in the US to act like traditional Pakistanis from back home, all’s we can do is instill in them a pride of our culture and hope that they turn out to be good human beings - that is essentially the most important thing.

3) Perceptions of Muslims in the US - I am often dumbfounded by the lack of understanding about Islam by fairly well-educated Americans. During my college years I was amazed at how ignorant some fellow students were - ‘Yeah, isn’t Buddha your prophet’ or ‘You don’t have machine guns stashed away in your room do you?’ or ‘How come you’re not wearing your veil - aren’t you supposed to?’. Believe it or not these

were Ivy Leaguers. Unfortunately people fail to realize that just like the Christians and Jews that vary from the fundametalist/terrorist type to the regular everyday ones, not all muslims are fundamentalists, some of us are just balanced human beings trying to just live a simple good life.

re ferozek

have a good day on the slopes. i took it all in good fun. no offence taken or intended. i tried to punctuate my directness with smileys (tho i hate those suckers, they are useful in written communication, when there is no other way of pointing out that one is not grim)but anyway...i am totally chilled.

btw, you started an interesting discussion, so whether or not we agree, a whole lot of credit for that.

valentine`s day makes me puke!

Zed! i loved miss shakir..she was my role model for most of my years in mama parsi. i am beyond intrigued by this blast from the past. who are you? email me at errerr@hotmail.com please.

i noticed you called me fatima which only people in mama school did..no where else in my life have i have been called by my first name. i belive however, ms shakir only taught 3 and 4th grade...

rizvi

Re: Ferozk

Feroz, I`ve noticed that your replies have gotten better. Better for me, that is. You are very witty! I like that. I hope you keep this up. I ususlly scroll down real fast from long, verbose replies, catching a word here and there, wondering how the hell these people find time! Some people have just too much time on their hands.

Buck up, F.Z.R, we are Muslims first and Pakistanis or Americans etc. afterwards. This feeling is what scares the hell out of these `Westerners` and this`s what`s going to make us Muslims the leaders of the next century.

Re: BG # 76

I should have put a disclaimer, but then hindsight is always perfect!

That was just some errant musings on my part; I was thinking out aloud. To all and each who contribute to Chowk, I did not intend any disrespect and if such is taken, then I am trully sorry for any hurt feelings since that was not my intention. I was merely wondering, through that interact, how Chowkwallahs saw themselves in this forum! The idea was to elilict a response and judging from your reaction, I seem to have struck a chord! I justed wanted to ``read`` how others viewed Chowk!

BG, yaar, relax and chill with a cool drink! It is the weekend, give the conspiracy spin a rest! :) This was not an attempt by me to forge a process which would have ended up in the balkanization of Chowk!

Unfortuneately, I have to run, but I will be back, minus Sunday, after getting my frustrations out on the slopes! I need a little I`n`I to get over the Clinton Blues! Some Miles Davis with a snifter of Rémy Martin VSOP and a slow buring Davidoff corona...soothes the soul just to think of it!

Tonight, I am gonna give the beat a chance....and talking of the drums will say everything gonna be alright! The far, far starlight say everything gonna be alright here tonight!

Have a nice weekend and Happy Valentine`s Day to all of you love birds out there!!!!

Feroz