Growing up an American Muslim

Hi...I really like this article. I have similar growing up experiences as a Muslim American. your article has given me some inspiration for my college admissions essay!! It`s nice to know there are others out there that can relate with what you are going through.

Beautiful??? Charming ... who put these ideas into your mind

Well done Fatima Zehra!!

Now if the purpose of hijaab was to create an identity for muslim women as not to be harrased by and not to bring looks towards them,then waering hijaab in this darulkufr serves quite the opposite.I can bet that if you went to your mall sine your hijaab,modestly dressed,youcould be equally effective woman.This is just a teaser.Ours is afree country and you can wear whatever pleases you.by the way hurry up and graduate.there is more to life than the college campus.

Re: lasiwala

our audacity?!?!?! umm correct me if im wrong but i thought we were all allowed to vocalize our opinions just as you have the right to. In any event.. it seems odd that instead of actually logically shooting down arguments you just covered the responces with a blanket statement of ``Both Uzma and S are nots`` ok thanks.. but i wont continue cause you tire of this..

along with the rest of us. bye

S

RE: ZEHRA

hi. hope youre goods. contrary to what some ppl may say i dont think im intellectually superior to you :) I for one havent been published on chowk.. soo...

:P

S

lasiwala..

there never was a need to apologize.

i didnt get into the ongoing debate, firstly becuz i wasnt aware it was going on. this piece has been off the front page for eons. for somehting so badly written it got people to respond, and respond strongly and passionately..as far as im concerned, that is what counts. to get reactions from people, to get them to think.

another reason i didnt respond was becuase, judging by your comments, you werent out to make points, just nasty jabs at me. and thats fine. you have that right. i need not respond to it. i could care less :)

another reader also thought this piece was awful..faraz i think..if you are so inclined, feel free so scroll through the 140 some odd replies and find it, it`ll make you feel somewhat vindicatated.

z.rizvi

Both Uzma and S are nots. The audisity of both of you to defend the authors values are so unbelievable. Wheres the author, I`m sure she`d be a little upset at my comments. Or maybe you two are sooo intelectually superior, she decided to remain out of this little debate. Amazing how such a not-all-that-good `article` has shut the `witty muslim` up so fast. i tire of this. appolozie i do not.

Both Uzma and S are nots. The audisity of both of you to defend the authors values are so unbelievable. Wheres the author, I`m sure she`d be a little upset at my comments. Or maybe you two are sooo intelectually superior, she decided to remain out of this little debate. Amazing how such a not-all-that-good `article` has shut the `witty muslim` up so fast. i tire of this. appolozie i do not.

Obviously there seem to be some over-arching issues here...and some underlying ones.

I am amused to find someone (ie lasiwala) question whether or not ``zehra`` (the author) knows herself or not... and I guess if she doesnt, then this ``lasiwala`` obviously seems to know her better than herself.

terribly amusing. *wry smile *

i found the comments unbecoming, and not carefully thought out. i commend ``S`` for being able to write back thoughfully and with logically based responses, and yet being careful enough not to have it become a personal issue. two thumbs up for that one.

lasiwala, in the future, i would recommend a few deep breaths and some thought before attacking an article on a personal level. you may comment on the article, style of writing, content, etc...but, to bring in personal issues into the realm of discussion is both irrelevant, and inconsiderate...unless, of course, you have issues with the author regardless of the piece of work and have used this as a medium to express (so very eloquently) your anger.

RE: Zehra.. nice piece. not too melodramaticin my opinion but im sure lasiwala disagrees :P

Re: lasiwala

Disclaimer: this is not meant as a personal attack of any kind. im sure if i knew you i wouldnt hate you or anything-im going to be a little open with my comments. plese take them in stride.. thanks...(i have a friend thats into disclaimers so i figured what the heck...)

i think you misinterpreted a lot of what zehra said..

`` How do you know that. It seems as though you are saying ALL Muslim women are judged and are caracterized ``not legitimate citizens`` for what; dark skin, hijab or a headscarf ???``

how does she know that Karen was not put in the same situation.. well for one she doesnt she said ``probably`` and probably is fine because Karen fits the description of what ppl expect(or when the piece was written however many years ago expected)the typical american to look like so they werent/arent really questioned the same way.. as yes dark skinned-brown, hijabi women are. Unless youre in Edison or an area similar to that people will tur and stare at a women wearing a hijab or a brown person.. male or female ..lemme relate something i encountered in the ``professional world``

I called up a computer consultant company in responce to an add in the paper. I was calling on behalf of a computer consulting company that was interested in subcontracting with them. The women -thought she was familiar with the company and said no quite rudely and said i know you guys. you have a lot of foreigners working there and theres always those foreign names and problems with visas and we dont need any foreigners here. My first nasty b--ch on the phone.. i was shocked and said well i have a foreign name. and im a American citizen.. shes like yeah ok whatever i know youre kind. i dont want to do business with them. As civilly as i could i said thank you and hung up.

And she didnt even see my scarf.. hmm what a pity she could really go at me then..

all she had was my funny sounded name which i have on good authority is a nice pretty sounding name.. :)

I think when Zehra asks

``What nation?

Which God?

Liberty? What kind?

Justice? Hah!``

shes really not showing her complete haterd of teh country but just questioning what nation is it that shes pledgin her allegience to.. yes you answered that (U.S.) even though she did too.. but deeper her question was (as i see it) ``what nation? a nation that looks at me in disgust and contempt that i decided to be me? a ntaion that ridicules my customs until it fits in their own conceptual framework -until demi moore puts mendhi on her hands?``.... well that doesnt work to well.. ppl started wearing sari`s and im sure if a woman walks out in public wearing a sari she will be stared out.. ive worn shalwar kameez`s on campus.. and i recall being asked (by mind you a brown friend of mine).. why do you do that? why would you put yourself out for ridicule or looks like that.. i believe my comeback was something to the effect of the gay pride sticker on a mutual friends car.. why does one put themself out for an attack like that?..

what god? in a secular society isnt church and state separate? hmm correct me if im wrong on that.. but what if one was an atheist? hmm the pledge of a secular country should really not exclude any citizen...

what justice.. yeah the justice system in pakistan sux.. and as u admit yourself the one here screws ppl too.. but it seems to screw specific ppl alot more in terms of public image. the whole media blitz on terrorism and muslims and then wait tim. mcVeigh?!?!? theres very little damage control to be exerted on the muslim image in the media.. seems to me the media and the justice system have to fight stereotypes

``You seem to write in a somewhat condesending manner when refering to `whitie` and all things this great nation has let us be involved in.``

dont you see something wrong there? right there in what you said..

``this great nation has let us be involved in``

it let us.. that implies it did us a favor and allowed us poor schmucks to come in and were not really ``true citizens`` then.. not first class ones in your eyes either... so then all brown ppl are beholden to the great nation run by the ``whities`` and did nothing to help it become that great.. well reread your stuff..

this nation is built by people.. all kinds of people.. so dont go shoving your this nation is great bullsh#t up people`s a$$es..sorry i meant noses- It`s great because of people`s efforts for it.. it didnt just spring up out of no where.. people fought for it. - yeah granted that the US has given many people opportunities that couldnt be found elsewhere but you seem to think that only the brown ppl should be kissing hte ground the ``whitites`` walk on because they gave it to us. seems to me you have a double standard- shouldnt they be thankful that this great nation has let then be involved in it to.. hmm ok so if were all thankfull to be americans (which no one argued negatively and even zehra said her experience was positive and she learnt from it) then who do we thank.. hm why dont we turn around to the person next to us and like Kindergarten go hug them and thank them.. hmm no were supposed to thank ``this great nation``.. well how do you propose we do that? maybe by trying to acheive better and better things for it.. hmm how about we try and erase ignorance from it.. how about we talk about the problems because everyone knows about the good things.. what about we discuss the not so good and attempt to change that to good.. hey does that sound like giving back something? hmm it does to me.. wow.. would you look at that i think thats just what Zehra`s article was doing.. raising questions and exploring things that could be worked with to be improved.

I think it isnt she that doesnt know hereself or is hypocritical .. maybe you should look into why you wrote what you did.. if you try and delude yourself into thinking that your responce had nothing to do with the author and only to do with your nationalism.. look deeper cause if not then you might be the one being hypocritical.

anyway lighter note nice name lasiwala. :) adidaSbly :P

sorry if this sounds harsh or mean..its nothing personal :)And sorry if its too long-i tell long -20 minute long stories too so i guess thats just how i am :P... :)

I wonder if the author in growing up an American Muslim really knows herself. She wrote the article ok, a little too melodramitic for me. Author: You say in your article, ``I look up from the sheet of paper...and meet the eyes of a white

Anglo-Saxon Protestant woman who has probably never had to defend who she is to anyone. I choose my words carefully and smile.`` How do you know that. It seems as though you are saying ALL Muslim women are judged and are caracterized ``not legitimate citizens`` for what; dark skin, hijab or a headscarf ??? i wonder if you are falling prey to the exact action you yourself find soo disturbing; vast genralizations about any group of people. The gaul you have in asking What nation what God. I see your understanding of our country does not do you too well in those intelectual teas you attend. 1) What Nation? The nation known as the United states of America. The nation which your parents and my parents came to to have a better life and to educate their children in a free and democratic society. That my friend is the nation the pledge refers to. 2) What God? Helllooo!!!! You seem to write in a somewhat condesending manner when refering to `whitie` and all things this great nation has let us be involved in. The same God that created al things. as a sedu-Muslim, you should remember the one who created your Mohamed his Jusus and her Noah are is the same person. Duh! the pledge to the flag refers to YOUR GOD. happy? and my personal favorite, 3) ``Justice? Hah!`` Our system of jurisprudence is the only system of laws and regulations which promote all as equalls in the eyes of justice. when the statue of Iustitia gazes down on you, why don`t you raise your nose, sorry eyes at her and notice what she has around her eyes. Its a blindfold since you don`t know. You dont have to be a mahajir or a sindi or a patel or a syed to have a fair trial in this country. sure Most of the times, it seems to not work but I`m sure it`s a hell of a lot more stable than your wonderful pakistan.

shery, thanks for your encouragement..it means a great deal ofcourse ;)

issues of identity are a big deal to me and it has been something that almost everyone living in the united states must deal with. i would be interested to see the piece you are talking about. writing is always catharthic for me so i just let it all out and just hope that its received well and that it is meanigful..

rizvi

Zehra (# 103)

`Thoughts about our children`s ID` (question addressed to Anne, Anita and myself)

It wasn`t that I neglected answering you, I just hadn`t checked this discussion in several days and was not really keeping up. But since you specifically asked here I am.

But first YOU please answer a trivial question. Why do you only use all lower case letters in your writing. You didn`t used to at first, but now you do. First it was BG (who became bg) and now Zehra is in the process of becoming zehra. I`m in no way trying to convince anyone to use UPPER case letters (in first person singular pronouns, beginning of sentences and proper nouns, not to mention name initials and acromyms). BG, in one of her posts somewhere claimed that she was plain old lazy to press the `shift` key every time. What is your reason? Is it some radical feminist revolt against patriarchal conventions of English language or what? There is a trend starting here as I`m beginning to notice others do it more and more. I`m just plain old curious.

Now to my younger child`s identity (my older one is going on 17 and she has already formed one -which will no doubt evolve further). That issue is simply going to have to be dealt by him when he gets old enough to spell `identity crisis`. In the mean time all we intend to do is to give him UNCONDITIONAL love and acceptance and try to encourage him in being the best he can be in whatever it is that he discovers he does best. We have no intention of shoving any pre-packaged cultural system down his throat. He will see and observe and draw his own inferences. We do intend to supplenent his education with home-schooling and shall always tell him whatever he wishes to know and steer him in the direction of learning more about it (whatever `it` is).

I believe an emotionally secure child will enter adolescence better quipped to discover his own identity than to cling on to hand-me-down parental ID parcels. It will just depend on the child`s personality and inclinations. Both his mother and I feel comfortable about who we are and feel to need to cast our child in our own immages. He will be whoever he is, and that is only his job to discover.

re: Ferozk: ``Sharam - shame- in culture``

EXCELLENT point. I`ve been a be-sharam most of my adult life and don`t care for any such nonsence. Rhett Buttler, I think it was, in Gone with the Wind, who says to Scarlet in the study at Seven Oaks, something to the effect that if one is brave and learns to not care about one`s reputation one learns that life really becomes very comfortable. This sharam bullshit is one of our FOUR big curses:

Adab, lehaaz, izzat aur sharam.

Thank you for bringing it up.

re: Faraz #107 ``nation of jahils``

Since you have generalized about the national average, I wonder how much of it stems from our incestuous in-breeding resulting in the gene pool degradation. Anita Zadi wrote an piece once here on Chowk about our nation of cousin phuckers.

re: afrasiyab #: 122

In response to Maliani (``Islam has incorporated lot of Pagan Arab customs.``) you wrote:

[`` Sorry, that is erronous. `Muslims` adopted pagan arab customs or pagan Indian customs not Islam...``]

Maliani said nothing of pagan Indian custom, so lets leave that out. As for pagan Arab customs, the annual worship gathering at Mecca (now Hajj) was an ancient pagan custom which Prophet Mohammad adopted and incorporated into his religion, Islam. This included running circles around the black stone housed in Kabah. Things that the Prophet himself adopted, I think it is safe to say, are a part of `Islam` (like the annual worship gathering at Mecca) and not just something which the `Muslims` picked up from the Arab pagans.

...SR

(please excuse the typos, its late and I`m stupified.)

Mailiani : Zehra hajji `99

Without a Mehram she doesn`t have the option, hijab or no hijab.

cheers,

OMAR1974

re:Ferozk

Or she could go to Mekkah for Haj and absolve herself from all the sins ;-)

Re: Omar1974 post # 127

Agreed. That is why historic speculation can be so interesting. The idea of non-Arabs dominating the scene was interesting, but doesn`t that itself suggest a metamorphis of the prevailing concepts? Would love to hear more on this.

Zehra:

Happy Birthday....21, so you are legal! I will drink a toast to you. Zehra, you need to go to the nearest watering hole and get wasted and just, once, hit on guys! It is because of this reason that I admire the Catholic religion so much. Love the concept of confession - no matter what you`re sins, you`ll be forgiven.

Sinner: Forgive me father for I have sinned!

Prist: Yes!

Sinner: Yesterday, while at the petting zoo, I went down on a baby graffee!

Priest: Yes, that is a serious sin. Say 40 hail marys and 60 hail fathers and ask for forgiveness!

re bina, bg

I never stated that Sindh is immune from honour killings!! What i intended was that honour killings were alien to this region (including Punjab, Pakthtoonkhwa) before the arrival of Islam.

Actually, statistically speaking the incidents have increased since Zia`s era.

Coming back to Sindh, there are soom grass root organizations working to elimiate this evil. One of the more active one is ``Sindhiari Tehreek``.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY ZEHRA !!!

MAY YOU HAVE MANY MORE !!!

HAPPY BIRTHDAY ZEHRA !!!

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO U !!!

lETS all raise a glass and imbibe a Toast to celebrate Zehra`s 21st birthday. Will she be visting the local pub/bar around campus? Don`t hold your breath folks .... although i do find the description of the hijab wearer in Sex Everywhere a trifle amusing. But seriously, enough already, Lets not allow the Hijab to be

used as a yardstick to measure her individuality and make what may be unjustified assumptions about her personally.

Cheers

OMAR1974

Re: Ferozk #100

Given these three conditions, it is reasonable, if not certain, to suggest that Islamic idenity would have metamorphed and mutated in reaction to and with the European influences surrounding it.

OMAR1974: Dear Feroz I hate to disagree with u, but I will. I think if the Battle of Tours had indeed been won in 732, the Arabs would have pushed much deeper into W.Europe than you seem to assume, however as for a metamorphosis of Islam ? Debatable. For starters, I have a strong feeling that while Arabs were certainly partial to both blondes (the last Arab ruler Abd-ul-Radman? had 1% Arab blood i recall reading somewhere) and wine, Non Arab MUSLIMS would have overtaken the rule of the Arabs by today, I have in mind the N.African brand of Islam, and you can forget about indulging in wine & cheese tasting festivals with those guys in charge. (Syed Qutb, Maudoodi et al`s brand of Islam). BTW, enjoyed the digression :)

Cheers,

OMAR1974

ferozk: one of these days i`ll lend you my tie dye hijab...it is `the` latest in hijab wear...we are trying to come up with some catchy slogan to promote the line..like, the salon slectives ad..have some men in beards singing across the street..who`s that lady? who`s that laaady?

or even have some emaciated heroin addicted hijabis with great bods whispering things like..under where? under here...or my personal fave..a spin on that indian number..hijab kay neechay kiya hai hijab kay neechay, nikab kay peechay kya hai, nikab kay peechay..

i think we will run a survey to see which one of these ideas gel..mebbe i will take it to the next ISNA conference.

ps..my birthday is this wednesday..mebbe you can get me one for all my 21 tender years.

rizvi

Re: Zehra

While I was downtown this afternoon, I saw a whole gaggle of hijabs walking on the other side of the street! Most of the colors were white, but some were darker colors....

Is there a color requirement....can you wear a hijab that has polka dots on it?

How about one which has the characters from Stars Wars printed on them....can imagine Darth Vader saying, ``fight your hijab Zehra and come to the dark side, Zehra.......``

Laters...:)

re maliani: you said in a post along time ago in this piece : ``BTW, Islam should not be our identity but simply a religion, our identity should be our culture.`` this is the same argument you are trying to preesnt currently again. you are mistaken in assuming that ther is only one answer as to where the religion we lovingly call Islam came from...there is no one right answer and instead of etching into stone your answer..consider the alternatives..( which have been presented in this ongoing discussion).

back to the honor killings..how about a petition to the governments..has anyone come across any as of yet? i would imagine they are all over the net at this point..maybe even a petition to our own government (applies to US readers) to sanction the governments who do not strengthen their laws regarding the honor crimes. it would mean ofcourse, tightening sanctions on an already unsteady pakistan but what can be done? has anyone heard from cair or icna etcetc.? anyone on their mailing list? i haven`t joined any of their email lists for fear of getting the `hadith a day that will keep the devil away`. money can be sent to the hotlines and orgaznizations within these countries who are trying to stop the honor crimes and to protect the women who run away from home for fear of their lives. i know that such organizations exist in Jordan and in Israel. Also, just FYI, the abc website has the two day interview on their site if anyone wants to take alook at it. its the transcript or atleast a part of it..i haven`t been able to go thru it all as of yet. please let me know if anyone has any other info...also, if you are interested if i find out more info please let me know either by email or interact....i don`t want to have to use this forum needlessly.

bina: if you have any info on the type of work going on in pakistan, (beyond the scope of the interview) could you share with us please?

rizvi

re bina and maliani
``Sindh is not immune to honor killings, just because Shah Abdul Latif Bhitai wrote some beautiful poetry``

bina makes a very valid point. maliani, could you explain?

Maliani wrote:

``Islam has incorporated lot of Pagan Arab customs.``

Sorry, that is erronous. `Muslims` adopted pagan arab customs or pagan Indian customs not Islam.



Maliani wrote:

``Secondly, there is a clause i mentioned in the nikkah nama - you should read carefully if you have one ;-) i have one and i know!``

I don`t have one fortuenately, I guess or unfortuenately, whichever way you wanna look at it:) Why don`t you provide me with the wordings and the clause number of that nikahnama. It will help. Also, you must realize that by the token of my earlier arguement the point about PAKISTANI laws is moot. They are not all Islamic, infact, I can`t think of anyone that is by letter or by spirit in conformity with Islam.

Maliani wrote:

``Getting back to my point, Islamic law (sharia), suggests that a single woman who loses her virginity should suffer 100 lashes after proof is obtained. And for an Adultress the sentence is death by stoning. So basically Islam is encouraging violence.``

I don`t know where you are getting this from. Please refer to the sources and if possible post them with your reply. Thanx. Look forward to a reply from you soon.

PS I was wondering, if maybe, we should take this discussion elsewhere, since this section has over a hundred replies on it already.

What do you say.

Afrasiyab wrote:
``First of all Pakistani customs and even Arab customs should not be used as examples of religious orders. Secondly, I don`t remember this clause that you are talking about in the Pakistani Nikahnama.``

Perhaps I am wrong (in case of Pakistan), but Islam emerged as an Arab religion and therefore their culture/customs should be considered when discussing Islam. Islam has incorporated lot of Pagan Arab customs and i don`t want to go into those details here.

Secondly, there is a clause i mentioned in the nikkah nama - you should read carefully if you have one ;-) i have one and i know!

Getting back to my point, Islamic law (sharia), suggests that a single woman who loses her virginity should suffer 100 lashes after proof is obtained. And for an Adultress the sentence is death by stoning. So basically Islam is encouraging violence.

Sindh is not immune to honor killings, just because Shah Abdul Latif Bhitai wrote some beautiful poetry. As part of my heritage, I also get to have the lovely tradition of karo-kari, in which usually the man goes free but the woman is the one that gets killed.

But, good news - just yesterday, in the court case of Humaira and Mahmood Butt (she married him of her own free choice, the parents had her caught, arrested, and produced a trumped up court case of zina against her as they claimed she had married her cousin and even produced a wedding video - in which she was weeping and completely upset), the judge upheld their marriage as legal and threw the case out of court!

The policeman who had Humaira jailed was himself jailed and ordered to pay a fine for the gross violation of justice.

i need someone to go over exactly what the hudood ordinance and the zina laws are...i would prefer that the history behind them also be elaborated on...

faraz, how possible do you think it is to repeal these laws in pakistan as you mentioned in your post and is there work being done in that vein of thinking?

my mom was able to see both parts of the program and unfortuantely did not tape any of it...while we were living in pakistan , my siblings and i, it seems, led an almost sequestered life in a bubble..my horror at what was happening was met by a matter of fact attitude and a disbelief on both our parts..on my part that it was happening and on my mothers part for my being so naive. she takes it for granted that i would know about the lives of the people she kept me hidden from..the stories that were whispered with my aya but not shared with us. i guess i was supposed to get this sordid side of pakistan thru osmosis. i think we just lost track of time and by the time i was old enough to talk about it with my mother it was no longer in the forefront of our priorities...espcailly since we were in the states. this is what i am afraid of...once this news is no longer in the forefront, what will happen to these women? its not like its stopping now but atleast there is light on the issue and something can be done.

what is really distressing is that it is the women (this is all heresay, i have not been able to watch either part one or two as of yet), are the ones who are prepetuating these crimes. the women are not standing up agaisnt it. they need somehow to realize that these killings are in no way, what so ever islamic or rational.

i think the one mistake that people going in to help make is that we do not speak the language of these women..i am not speaking about urdu..you could go in there and tell them in urdu that they shouldn`t stand up for what is happening and that they have just as equal rights as men and how many of them do you think would actully agree with you...very few..speak to them in their language. tell them what the islamic law is..it does not say to kill a woman just for leaving the house without permission or it does not say to kill her for talking to a male cousin or sumthing. speaking the vernacular of the people in a way that they will understand is what is importnat here. i mean, no offense to asma jehnagir`s work or to her, but i can just imagine how much these women can relate to her in her nice house and nice car...not very much.

did anyone tape the show? i need a copy.

chowk should set up a place where items like this can be placed up for sale (thru abc, no breaking the law in that) and proceeds go to these women.

i would like to continue but i find that words are just not doing it for me right now and in fear of being inarticulate i will stop now.

rizvi

Maliani wrote:

``Muslim customs and religion dictate that a woman must be a virgin before marriage. In fact if you look at Pakistani Nikah nama forms, one of the question is about bride`s virginity but there is no question about groom`s virginity.``

First of all Pakistani customs and even Arab customs should not be used as examples of religious orders. Secondly, I don`t remember this clause that you are talking about in the Pakistani Nikahnama.

I don`t know why most people assume just like the myth that all arabs are muslims that all their customs also come from Islam.

You must also remember that some of the most heinous crimes that are ccommitted in our society are due to following the customs of the region before Islam. You are trying to paint Islam as the problem here which is exactly contrary to what Riffat Hassan and Aasma Jahangir said during these presentations on ABC.

Re: Faraz

I agree with Zehra. Honour killings are common in the arab world. In fact an earlier show was about honor killings in the arab countries. In fact there is quite an activity among arab feminists to stop honour killings. The sad thing is that it happens in Palestine as well where women have struggled side by side with their men. I had read somewhere that Female PLO freedom fighters have been harrased as well.

Muslim customs and religion dictate that a woman must be a virgin before marriage. In fact if you look at Pakistani Nikah nama forms, one of the question is about bride`s virginity but there is no question about groom`s virginity.

I guess what i am trying to say is that we must have picked this up from the Arabs or invading Turks. Historically, Indus Valley civilization is alien to such violent culture. Our culture is full of love stories. We had strong Sufi traditions and love is the highest value to a sufi. If anyone of you has read Shah Latif then you would know that Women in Shah`s poetry are the central character, the heroines: and they are dynamic, uninhibited, independent minded, autonomous, dedicated, and persistent. Women in Shah do not respect social tradition, only their independent heart`s calling.

Here a couple of verses from Shah:

``adiyuun varu ughaarra, vihaanu jehen visaariyo
jeddiyuun! chhadde jaarra, sabhi nangiyuun thii nikro``

Trans:
``Sisters! success is theirs, who abondan vanity.
Become naked [1] and come out.``

[1] uninhibited

``sabhi nangiyuun thii nikro, laalacha chhadde lobha
supriyaan siin sobha, ninddruun kande na thiye``

Trans:
``By giving up avarice, greed and clothing [2]
set out for the desired goal.
Success with the beloved cannot be achieved merely by sleeping.``

[2] the veil, inhibitions

Re: RR post # 109

It was good to ``read`` you again!

You have brought a valid point. The Jewish experience in this country is a textbook example on how to organize political support and earn legitimacy within the establishment hierarchy.

As to the Pakistanis doing something similar, there is a past precedent. Senator Larry Pressler was defeated for re-election when the Pakistanis living in the States began to support the Democratic candidate running against him. It was the first time, that I could remember, when the Pakistani community used its political muscles and financial dollars to influence a decision.

Since then there has been no focus in the last elections, but the defeat of Sen. Pressler proves that Pakistanis, Indians can influence US politics through contributions supporting a specific candidate, influencing election results through voting, mobilizing grassroots efforts etc.

Good point Rehan. It can be done and it was done, but it needs to a sustained effort over the duration to have a marked effect and should not be just an ad hoc approach to the problem.

Thanks for tangent!

Re: Abc show, & Faraz`s comments

I really think Faraz in his post, especially the last paragraph has it right. The first thing that must be done to stop the honor killings is to impart education to these people. 2ndly, in order to break the hold of patriarchical society over these women, it is necessary to instill in them the notion of equality with men. This cannot be imparted if they are restricted at the will of their male relatives to the chardivari of the house thru the custom of purdah, or treated as a special class of chattal (for they are not treated like human beings) that must don the hijab, and this is force fed to them at an early age through the institutions of so called CULTURE, TRADITION & RELIGION. How can they (these abused women) be exprected to break free

from from the shackles that bind them, if their educated sisters themselves justify the institution of separate treatment for women,from men, by actually donning the hijab, and thus reinforcing patriarchical social roles/(gender based ofcourse), which hold the uneducated women back in the first place! Like I have said before its all a male trick to dupe women into being submissive and docile, in order to deprive them of their rights and to insure that AN ASSERTIVE WOMAN is an oxymoron in that society, i,e a contradiction in terms.

Re: Abc show, & Faraz`s comments

I really think Faraz in his post, especially the last paragraph has it right. The first thing that must be done to stop the honor killings is to impart education to these people. 2ndly, in order to break the hold of patriarchical society over these women, it is necessary to instill in them the notion of equality with men. This cannot be imparted if they are restricted at the will of their male relatives to the chardivari of the house thru the custom of purdah, or treated as a special class of chattal (for they are not treated like human beings) that must don the hijab, and this is force fed to them at an early age through the institutions of so called CULTURE, TRADITION & RELIGION. How can they (these abused women) be exprected to break free

from from the shackles that bind them, if their educated sisters themselves justify the institution of separate treatment for women,from men, by actually donning the hijab, and thus reinforcing patriarchical social roles/(gender based ofcourse), which hold the uneducated women back in the first place! Like I have said before its all a male trick to dupe women into being submissive and docile, in order to deprive them of their rights and to insure that AN ASSERTIVE WOMAN is an oxymoron in that society, i,e a contradiction in terms.

Re: Zehra

I`m not entirely sure about the Arab culture bit. I`m sure it happens there too, but in Pakistan we also have local cultural influences that propagate this sort of behavior. For example, the Pathan zan, zar and zameen code does not contain anything overtly oppressive but does contribute to men feeling a need to control their honor by controlling their women ( asignificant portion of the cases occur in NWFP). Then various hindu traditions remain in Pakistan, such as doweries, that lead to violence amongst women. So while women are repressed all over the Islamic world our fundos have also incorporated local traditions in to their fanaticism.

Regarding what can be done, you are right it very futile to tsk tsk away. For starters, I think it is imperative that both men and women start standing up for these victims instead of shunning them...and that the so-called ``state`` (as if we have one)start prosecuting these idiots. And here`s one that might actually bring us in to the 20th century; repeal the zina laws and hudood ordinance.(I promise it won`t lead to the degeneration of moral values)

However, as I mentioned in my last post the primary cause of almost all of Pakistan`s social ills is a lack of education (something I think the documentary failed to highlight). And that should be our goal as a nation, to ensure that our citizens can read and write. I think there are some philanthropic organizations devoted to this cause, notably The Citizen`s Foundation.

If you look at women`s development in Islamic society in terms of education, I think the clear leader is Iran (I am not sure about this). It would be interesting to see the degree of domestic violence in that society.

This is a tangent, but another root cause of our problems is the concept of Sharam (Something that Rushdie shows quite brillinalty in his novel ``Shame``.) Everything we do is centered around our need to avoid shame, and most causes of our shame are related to women. And what is it they say to little kids when they do something bad: ``sharam nahin aatee?`` If the primary problem of the U.S. is the lack of shame in this culture, then our problem is quite the opposite.

Yesterday in the documentary they showed a fundo rally held during the riots over that love marriage (I forget the couple`s names).The mullah in charge said to his very emotional male audience ``kya aap yeh bardash karain gay keh aap keee bhain ya bhetee key saath love ishtory (story) hoi?``

Nahin Qazi Sahib, Khudaa maree bhaetee ko kabhee sacha pyaar na naseeb karai.

Faraz

ps The 1st part I was referring to the part of the documentary that aired Monday night.

Good essay FZR. I`ll talk about one issue here that has my attention at the moment and that is the effectiveness with which both the foreign policy involving a community`s concerns and domestic image of that community can be shaped. And I want to mention the Jewish community in the US. In the last few decades, AIPAC and the Jewish lobbies have organized themselves into an effective force. They are not only involved in the shaping of US policies in the Middle East, but the way they have set their objectives, they`ve been crucial in garnering sympathies for the state of Israel and Jews in general in the American public. Mind you, this is the same public that barely tolerated them only a few decades ago.

Their greatest assets have been an educated and politically active, not to mention wealthy, community with plenty of political scientists actively seeking high places in the decision making apparatus in Washington. There`s a lot that can be learned from them. For example, they only spent $3.6 million in the `92 elections on congressional candidates and not only do they have 23 Jewish representative in the house, but they have support of the entire Congress.

They`ve demonstrated that anyone who goes against their agenda can say good bye to public office. Rep. Percy from Illinois learned that the hard way in `84 when he opposed AIPAC on an issue, and was defeated by Paul Simon, an AIPAC candidate. Pres. Bush too learned why a president should never put any conditions in providing loan guarantees, nay anything, to Israel. Granted, the Jews do have an advantage over other communities as they`ve been here the longest and have considerable influence in the financial and media sectors. But as far as the elections go, what we can learn from them is how to pick the right candidates to support; which candidates should be opposed and how to efficiently make the campaign contributions work for your cause.

With Muslims closing ranks with them in sheer numbers, it`s time we try to assert our influence on issues that directly or indirectly concern us. And the only way to do it is keeping our differences within the community and presenting a single and united front to promote our causes. If one community can do it, there`s no reason why another cannot do the same.

...Rehan

Re: Aamina Ahmed
Yes the ABC show about ``honor killings`` did well to interview Asma Jehangir. I loved the way she cut short the American host`s holier than thou attitude. It was sad to see men casually describe their sister/daughter`s murder as justifiable.

re: faraz you are right, islam doesnt need any protection from the attacks most people imagine it going thru..the people who need help desparetly are the women that are being brutally murdered by their own family for wanting to just be themselves. the first i had heard of the honor killings was 4 years ago...that man had been jailed becuase it was in the states. some palestinian dude. i remember watching part 1 of the honor killings ( this is the one with diane sawyer correct? all of a sudden its the hot topic and a lot of media attention is being given to it). one thing we fail to understand is that it is part of the Arab culture which does happen to be predominately muslim. honor killings are quite popular in israel too. this did come as a surprise to me. did the program come up with any resolutions on how to deter the honor crimes or was it just a commentary and a want for a basic understanding on why this is happening? they do have hotlines (in the translation many thought it was a sex line) and laws against such aurtocity in the arab world but since it is acceptable i n their society, those who are working agaisnt it are in the minority. a petition seems like a good first step but what more can be done..i feel useless just sitting and watching and tsking away..is there anything proactive that can be done??

rizvi

Zehra:

Pls. have some mercy and break your sentences! You do express yourself well--- just think of others who have to read the interacts. A page long paragraph is often hard to take. No offence intended.

regards

Re: Aamina and anyone interested in the ABC show

The ABC show last night was almost painful to watch. Interestingly enough the program (the 2nd part) started off with a specific disclaimer about how this was not a commentary on Islam; the host explained how ABC had received a lot of mail, calls, etc from ``concerned Muslims``. I am sure hundreds of people were ready to talk to ABC, with various quotes from the Quran and Hadis, etc. I am sure e-mails were sent, and announcements made at mosques about this ``attack`` against Islam.

What I find extremeley disturbing, however, is my gut feeling that in all likelihood none of the people that called in to complain to ABC, are probably doing (or plan to do) a damn thing to stop this honor killing nonsense. Islam has been around for 1400 years, withstood far worse attacks, it does not need your help to survive...but these women are being burnt alive, they could use some help.

Now I know that watching the documentary was nothing like what I am used to seeing in Lahore or what most chowkwallahs are used to at home, but the sad fact of the matter is that most of our women are still stuck in shuttlecock-burqas, enslaved to their men and if we have to make a crude generalization about our country it is that we are a nation of jahils.

Both Riffat Hasan and Asma Jahangir made interesting points. I though Dr. Hasan was very much on point when she talked about the Western Media not being interested in the self-actualization process most Muslim women are going through. Ofcourse both women were very correct in stressing, that the more pressing problem is these women`s situations and not the western media`s misconceptions of Islam.

The only thing that the show did not stress enough, and what the host kept asking was ``what goes through the head of someone who kills their wife or daughter or sister?`` The answer ofcourse is not much. These people are usually illiterate. And at its most basic level I think these attitudes are caused by a lack of basic education.

Faraz

ps. I don`t care if certain Muslim women in western society wear the Hijab. Its your right even if I do think it looks ridiculous.. But I do think it is a little bit hypocritical and insensitive to wax philisophic on its ``liberating effects`` when that, along with purdah, is one of the most effective tools that these Jaahils use to control their women.

Z: I thought we were past the hijab issue quite a while back, and had moved onto the question of whether Islam was spread by the sword or not, but apparently, you`re still not over it!

omar: as i had thought..your inquiries once handed over to ferozk saab fared much better. i am no historical guru as, that much should be obvious...i like to live in my own little utopia where i am not judged by the color of my hijab but the material it is made of. i should translate what i meant by that statement since it is metaphorical ( for those of you less dense then our resident chowk `voice of reason`, you may skip this part). ever saince you found out i wear hijab you have formed your own opinion of me without really knowing who i am. this is somethng i have come to expect from people i meet on the streets but not sumthing i expected from people i bump into in the gallis of chowk. this was my disenchanment with chowk for a while the first time i had to defend myself from the onslaught of those trying to save me from my hiajb wearing self. i tend to get defensive and who can really blame me? just wanted to put that out there and put an end to any ideas you may have of reforming me..if i must be `reformed` trust me, you are not going to be the one doing it :)

re: all

this tangent from the current topic is, i suppose egotistal on my part, but i feel a lot of the discussion is an offshoot of the hijab one. when i wrote this essay, it was a great experiance for a couple of reasons. one being the fact that i love when i am able to write with ease and fluidity and the way words just find their places by themselves and jel together. this piece jelled well for me in that it was experssing alot of what i was feeling and had felt. i went backwards trying to remeber what it used to feel like to be called a towel head and how i used to try to convince myself that i was the stronger person and it would get easier. i did not want to turn this into a hijab and my struggle with hijab becuase that was the last thing on my mind..hijab just is..a friend of mine didn`t like the way her bisexuality was the one thing that people focused on..she would say, im female first, philosphy major and yeah im bisexual too, it just was..i feel the same way about hijab..ofcourse it isn`t as easy to take the hijab out of focus as she was able to take her bi sexuality out of focus and that was sumthing i came to terms with. the essay is about a young woman comming to terms with who she is. try also to remember the audience i was writing to..in order to win the moola i had to cater to the AMC needs of being proud of my heritage ( which i am) and showing it off in a real positive light ( which im mixed about..i had thgouht about bringing up the real dark issues that young women have to face being muslims and how many problems i have with some `hard islamic facts` but i was writing for a specific audience here). anyhow, i hope this somewhat clears up the reason behind the writing ( i think faraz in some reply of his was wondering why i had written this and why it has been published on chowk). im thrilled beyond belief that so many issues have sprung up from the essay..i wasn`t expecting them to which is a bit naive on my part since it is an essay dealing with identity and culture...something most chowkwalay have to deal with. i am curious to ask for other readers with young children to share how they feel their children will grow up..not only in the states but also in pakistan..we had one response from gk and it was a repeat of what my parents had felt which is why i lived in pakistan for 7 years..anita or sr, annogul ( only chowkwalay i know with kids), would you guys care to share?

rizvi

Maliani : Grow Up kid! Sipah-e-Sahaba are about on the furtherest end of the political spectrum from me that you can possibly get. Just because i happen to know a thing or two about Islamic history does not make me a bearded fanatic. As i already stated the only thing i was concerned about was that what Zehra said was not causally related to her argument stating that Islam was spread by the sword.

Re: Omar1974

All the power to you! Equality Rocks!

This is way, way off topic, but I do not like Rose. I have been experimenting with wines lately, and I tend to graviate towards European wines, most French, some Italian and a few South African vintages. South African wines are approximately where the Californian wines were ten years ago. German wines are good, but they lack the full bodied taste of Bordeaux region wines. Portugese wines are excellent and I really like them, though my favorite would be Port from the Porto region of Portugal - it is a deseret wine.

Also, lately California has seen too many wet summers and that that has shortened the growing season for many of its vinyards. The grapes need a long dry growing season to mature to a full ripness. If you get a chance, try differnt types of regions, grapes etc. If you like chardannoys, you will like wines made from the pinot blanc grape.

I agree: lets not put conspiracy spin on everything!


Re:Zehra and Omar on historical speculation

As to my two-cents on Charles Martel and the battle of Tours, it is hard to say. Historic speculation is always fraught with misgivings. I am merely going to talk about it in the context of the time and then maybe, draw a few conlusions.

At the time of the battle, Europe was in the middle of the Dark Ages, and Islam, was experiencing a sudden surge of growth; both militarily and in the academic sense. Remember, this was almost a hundred years after the Prophet (PBUH)`s death and in the next hundred or so years, Islamic advances in learning and science would eclipse pre-renassiance Europe. During this time, Europe was still struggling within the frame work of the Holy Roman Empire created to replace the legacy of Imperial Rome and Pax Romana.

Unlike Islam, whose unifying theme was religion, Europe was divided on the issues of religion as the Pope, representing Christiandom, fought European princes to transform his spiritual mandate into an earthly authority. There was no separation of chruch and politics at that time. It would take Christanity, nearly four hundred years till 1100 A.D. (Anno Domeni), to organize religiously and they would do so in the guise of the crusades.

At the time of Tours, it important to remember that Charles Martel was not resisting Islamic Moorish inroads for the sake of Christiandom, but to protect his own sphere of interest; his own princely authority. That was the context of the battle and why it was fought.

Had the Muslims won, then still again, based on the Moorish experince in Spain, it is possible to draw a few conclusions.

One; Islam would have offered, given its own renassiance, a place for the European intelligentisa, notably the Jews to migrate towards it. Jews would be more partial to drift towards Islamic Moorish enclaves, because unlike the Christians, who were still buring them for killing Christ, they could find relative safety within Muslim lands. Yes, they would have to pay a tolerance tax, but that would be still preferable to a brutal death. Remember, that in 1498, while Columbus was sailing west, a ship filled with Jews was sailing east to take sanctuary in the Ottoman Empire from the insanity of the Spainish Inquestion.

Two; with this happening, since the Jews were traditional sources of moneylending in Europe, the finance epicenter in Europe would tend to be based within a Muslim Moorish political framework. This would have created fizzures in the context of a Christian Europe, because most princes, distrustful of the Popes` meddling in politics, would have aligned themselves with Muslim Moorish interests. One; to seek a political patronage and two, to have access to money with which to resist the Vatican`s power plays.

Third; this would have created, in fact, two Europes. One under the Muslim influence and other still under the Church`s. Also, and this is the critical distinction, the Europe under the Muslim influence would have advanced in terms of science, knowledge and other academia, because unlike the Christian Europe, the Islamic Europe would have benefited from the Muslim renassiance then in the early stages of its eventual development. Also, given the Muslim tenet of tolerating the people of the book coupled with a sense of political and financial security, it would have created quite strong, magnetic, forces which would influence and sway the perpherial European states, to align with Muslim Europe and thus, benefit from its political, economical and academic openess.

Given these three conditions, it is reasonable, if not certain, to suggest that Islamic idenity would have metamorphed and mutated in reaction to and with the European influences surrounding it. The idea of European Islam from the Arabic Islam, as practiced in the Arabian peninsula, might be different and the European Islam might have been more tolerant than its Arabian counter-part. The logic behind this statement is derived simply from the expedient that unlike the Arabian version, the European Islam would have been exposed to a greater varity of cross cultural-political thoughts.

If we take the concept of contempory melting pot or even a mosaic, and apply it to an European based Islamic experiment, it not too difficult to see a similar response. There would be a diffusion of cultural traits and the sense of an idenity, would not be based on a national, religious or political creed, but would seem to based on the that power political-financial security came from a confluence of different sources and hence, there should be no distinctions on what consitutes the emergent influences.

This is what the historic record would suggest, based on emperical historic evidence. As to the colonization of North America by Muslim explorers, it is possible, but then again, we have to look at the historic record, of Muslim conquests eleswhere and draw the proper insights. Would it be a tolerant colonization. No, colonization has never been tolerant. What would determine such a an outcome, would be reaction of the established culture, in this case the native Americans, to the Muslim colonizations and how successfully they could resist it or were assmilated it into the mainsteam culture.

As to the future, that is highly speculative, because the historic timeline would have changed dramtically. Hence, I am a little leary to speculate beyond this point due to a lack of emperical evidence.

Hope this exteremely long, tedious, trugid and boring analysis helps.

FYI
Did anybody see the NIghtline show on TV (I don`t know what channel somewhere between 1 and 12) last night.
THere was a special on Pakistan. It dealt with a lot of Women issues. Very informative. The second part is on tonight (tuesday ie). Check it out.

I guess, with all this talk about hijab, women, islam and American Muslims, this show maybe of interest to a lot of you.

regards

Re: OMAR1974

Hey, why are you wasting your time on Chowk, you should be back in Jhang leading Anjuman-e-Sipah-Sahaba (ASS)

omar..try to ignore the underlying hostility..im doing my best to hide but i cant seem to. the islam i know was spread by a sword after rasools` death. being the shi`aa i am ( dont enyone dare jump on me for that one), the brutal murder of the grandson of the prophet, 71 of his family members, the rape and pillage of the women of the house, doenst aspire to be an auspicious begginning to spreading islam...you ofcourse have a different idea. why other muslims would kill the grandson of the prohpet they belived in, is ofcourse beyond me but why do people do anything..FOR POWER! this is how it was and this is how it is..power hungry lunatics are out there and i don`t understand why islam should be mixed into this at all. the more powerful you need to prove you are the more frightening and memorable you make yourself. there are exceptions of good rulers etc, but i mean reallly, how rare are those? ( dont spew historic evidence at me, it hardly applies to waht we are talking about). we could talk of any of the mughals but that wasnt real islam and some of their rules werent the best either. i shudder to think what this world would be like if religion were the ruling factor..im not just talking about muslims taking over the world but how about the catholic church taking over the world. its very sad that the one thing that i find solace, peace and inner satisfaction is the one thing that can be so very evil..i.e. religion. religion has always been a personal thing for me and i believe it should be that way for everyone. ofcourse my believing that does nothing to change hard facts that countries that have islamic governments have some of the most oppressed citizens. to answer your question..if muslims `discovered` amreeka first...what would that be like...well for starters, the native americans would blame us instead of the white man and..well basically we would be seen in the role of the oppressors and not the oppressed. i somehow think ferozk could tackle the what if scenario that you are asking about cuz all of a sudden my mind is reeling with the international implications this would cause etc..i eman what effects would that have on pakistan and would there be a pakistan or would we all just move to better land..and would we all still have those inherent desi qulaities that we love to yack about or would they just be myths that the elders talk about? would intermarriage between arabs, pakis and indians be all the more common or not? interesting scenarios. is it the land itself that make the people or do the people affect each other?

ferozk: my obsessions with the color brown. i like the color brown..i like the way differnt shades of desiness look agaisnt my skin. facetiousness aside..i use the term `brown` synonomous with desi or south asian. a linguistic quirk of mine if you will :)

rizvi

Ooops, that last post should have been posted to Sound Quest.

Omar

I KNOW you are not trying to suggest that the prophet(pbuh)`s family was in need of conversion to Islam and that because they refused to convert peacefully they were killed. Therefore the question of violence against them to spread Islam as you put it, is irrelevant. Yes, as you say yourself, it was about POWER. It was a POWER struggle. And the prophet`s near and dear lost. But, I don`t think this can be justified by anyone in any shape or form as having been done to spread Islam, so your comment is WAY OFF the topic. It has nothing to do in fact with the facts you stated. Lets not get hysterical about something which is beyond debate and is not even being debated related to you point you raised earlier and to which i responded earlier. This is a very wierd tangent introduced solely because of your strong feelings about it, not because it is causally related to your previous remarks or mine.

Can anyone comprehend the logic of what i am saying?

The Voice of Reason

Dear Zehra,

Firstly, no one is jumping on you about being shia, so don`t be all defensive please.

Now, maybe i`m missing something, but what does the murder of the prophet`s grandson have to do with the spread of Islam? I don`t wanna get into the shia-sunni nonsense (A topic I dont like too much), but as i recall, an extremist group of Shias assasinated Hazrat Ali. (pbuh) As for the implications of the death of the prophet`s grandson(S) WELL, all that tells me is that perhaps thats the reason why Sunni Islam is the brand of Islam 90% of muslims in the world profess as their faith, not whether had the grandson survived, Islam would have been spread by the gospel of love (lets not kid ourselves). FACT: Islam was spread by a bunch of marauding Arabs under the military leadership of my namesake to begin with, who vastly expanded its borders. The reasons why the Shahs of Iran compelled their people to accept the Shia version of Islam are deeply political, rooted more so in their being a non-Arab, Persian group of people who did not want their long lasting culture and historical autonomy absorbed/subsumed into a crude identity based on the Islam the Arabs were propagating. Lets face it, the bedouins had minimal culture being a nomadic tribal people. They were not city dwellers like the Byzantines & Persians with their capitals at Ctesiphon (with many palaces) and Constantinople. Syria had a very well established, civilized urban population well before the Arabs got there. But the early shias were Arabs, not Persians.

Again, i fail to see what the issue of Islam being spread by the sword has to do with the dhimmis (Christians) conversion in mainly N.Africa? Many Christians welcomed the Arabs as liberators from Byzantine, because the Byzantine Empire prosecuted heretic Christian sects. I dont think the killing of the prophet`s grandson was for the cause of spreading Islam. Rather, it was the result of domestic turmoil within Islam over who would lead the Empire. It was about who would assume the leadership, would it be a heraditary form of leadership (something the prophet himself never endorsed, unless you also subscribe to the idea that he was the Son of G-D himself in which case keeping the leadership within his divine family would certainly make sense) or a democratic form of leadership based upon ijma of the community. Although i freely admit that a small coterie of the wealthy and influential deciding who would be Caliph does not represent either ijma or democracy which is what happened, that led to the Prophet`s grandson`s death. So the people who claimed to represent the Sunnis 1300 years ago may well have been wrong to do what they did 1300 years ago. How/Why should that affect us today? I dont give a damn about the so-called differences, although many religious bigots do and are willing to kill over them. Lets leave those kind of judgements unto G-D and the last day shall we?

I`m curious to know why Shias don`t believe in paying Zakat though.

Also, now i know that the regular matams & functions keep the issue alive for the shia community, but isint it time to bury the hatchet already? Or must old hatreds be continually fanned. Incidently i don`t think cursing the names of Omar, Uthman, Abu-Bakr etc does any good but lead to unnecessary violence by Sunnis in retaliation. Bad thoughts beget bad reactions. What i find amusing though, in all this, is that Shias read the same Quran that was compiled under Uthman`s reign, upon his orders, yet still curse him. Ofcourse the traditions (hadith) they compiled are different from the Sunni traditions.

Forgive & Forget. Even if half ass illiterate fundos are willing to drain each others blood in 3rd world countries over quarrels that started well over 1300 years ago, must the educated and enlightened in society in countries far away also harbour the same ridiculous prejeduices and grudges?

A Voice of Reason.

P.S Yes, I was a Poly Sci & History double major as an Undergrad. Forget about Art history, Poltsci is the best!

Beautifully written piece about a taboo desi topic. I find that Bina`s situation (reply #5)in the Supermarket in Karachi was ridiculous, pathetic, agonizing. Poor Bina, what could she have done, even though she knew. What could any of us have done? What could a man in Bina`s shoes have done? Had a word with the guy? Punched his lights out? Followed his car home? What? Its difficult to say isint it. Thankfully the women of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan are protected by that all encompassing piece of legislation, the Hudood Ordinance (droll little smile). Perhaps both the child and Uncle could have been jailed together on Bina`s complaint to the police.

OMAR1974

Zehra says: why spread islam in the awful way that it was after rasool (pbuh)? the awful way meaning with the sword..i mean you very well cannot according to islam force it down peoples throats right? so what you going to do with all that power? all thats going to happen is that certain mullahs will come into power and take peoples rights away, force everyone to grow beards and wear hijab and sites like chowk that garner free thinking will be banned forever. allahkhair karay if such a world come about.

Dear Zehra Islam for your kind information was NOT spread by the sword. The Arabs were very surprised when the dhimmis started to convert. They did not expect it. They preferred an Islam dominated by the Arabs, since like every other nationality in history they believed themselves to be chosen by G-D. The muslim converts were distinctly treated like 2nd class citizens in the hierarchy of power. About the only coercision that might be said to have compelled the mass conversion was the special head tax levied on dhimmis. The Arabs by and large initially left the cities to be run as they found them. It was the incentive provided by the head tax that probably led to the mass conversions to Islam.

I`m curious, are you saying Zehra that you are glad in a way that Charles Martel in the battle of Tours, 732 A.D defeated the Arabs and stopped them at the gates of Western Europe? I have often myself asked that question ... would this be a better world if Islam had triumphed over Western Europe back then, and the Americas had been discovered (and colonized later) by Muslim sailors as opposed to C.Columbus? Lets not get into the side debate over who DISCOVERED what, and what that word means.



OMAR1974

Lets not politicise Valentine`s day! I know BG`s politics are quite left leaning, but MUST EVERYTHING be labelled a great Capitalist Conspiracy?

Ferozk : I disagree with your choice of wines, Rose, (Portugese) chilled, at about $15/bottle would be my choice, but my gf wound up taking me out to dinner. How`s that for feminist equality!

OMAR

Re: Zehra, BG and Omar1974 on Valentine`s Day!

Omar, what are you thinking...75 bucks for a dozen roses! One rose is more than enough to do the trick. Dating is like investing in the stockmarket...you should pick your stocks real carefully and then invest, only if there is a promise of a solid return later on!

I agree with you; Cupid Day costs too much, but there are ways to get around that. Here is how to have a Valentine`s Day for around $50 dollars.

One; kick your roommates out! Two cook a meal (pasta, or whatever you like) and serve it in an elegant way; candle light dinner for two with some romantic CD playing in the background.... Buy yourself,if you drink, a nice bottle of wine: merlot is an excellent choice, because it is not too heavy and has fruity flavors with a hint of oaky finish, from the barrels. A claret is an exceptional choice, but it is a full flavored wine, and most girls shy away from it. Pinot grise is another excellent choice...Rent a chick flick that she likes...turn the lights down (helps to have dimmer switch) and just be there for her! :)

She will like the attention she is getting and remember, it is all in the presentation....! As far as the meaningful conversations go, looks speak more than mere words and pretend that you are really attentive to what she is saying....here is how you do it, just keep saying: really...I didn`t know that....you`re kidding me...I am sorry what was that again...that will keep the conversation going in a ``repeat mode``! Let her do the talking and just keep agreeing with her! :)

BG; I just put the disclaimer in the case people sued me for libel..no offense taken!

The Valentine`s Day is a mutation from the pagan Roman holiday of fertility celebrating spring. It was called the Feast of Lupress (I think that is the correct spelling) and it was a wild party. It was not an orgy! A Roman orgy BTW, has nothing to do with it sex - it is about stuffing yourself with food and then puking and eating like a pig again! the closest modern contempory example would be an all you can eat shrimp deal at the local Red Lobster!

The Catholic Church has kept a lot of pagan tradtions and holidays, but changed their symbolism! Trust religion to that...

Zehra, easy there! Me thinks that you need talk with Oliver Stone! I betcha ya, the phone company after killing Kennedy, came up with Valentines Day and Momma and Papa days, as a massive cover up to keep the Americans from guessing that Mickey Mouse is the one running this country! And while I am at it, do you know that Alan Greenspan, the Chairman of Fed Reserves is an alien...yup! He is on a scouting mission to confuse us so that we do not put up a fight when the aliens invade us! Agent Mulder is working on it...he has secret government files which show that Old Faithful, in the Yellowstone National Park, is in reality a top secret homing device for the alien invasion ships...

alien or not, Greenspan is a great economist..now only if the leaders of this country actually listened to what he was saying and implemented that..

ferozk...remind me to never date you.

rizvi

re OMAR1974

``Just cause you dont get some/any is no reason to wanna puke.``

that`s not the reason, it is explained below:

``This is one American custom which is definitely a way of saying to that special someone that I Love U/I thought about U/You mean
something to me. Cant imagine why you hate V-Day!
Curious to know your reasons.``

just `cause you asked:

omar, love is one of the most important forces in this world. and, when i say, forces, i dont mean just romantic love that is packaged and sold by hallmark and florists on valentine`s day.

by all means show people how much you love them, tell them EVERYDAY that you love them. why wait for once a year and show them in a way that is determined by hallmark? why should hallmark and florists decide how we should show our love? heart shaped red/pink everything. is that the true symbol of love? who decided that? why only feb14? why cant we show our love EVERYDAY, not with flowers and a stuffed teddy bear, but by trusting those we love, believing they are worthy of the best in life, showing our respect for them, for their dreams, not taking it out on them if we had a bad day at work, really listening to them, paying attention to what they like and who they are.

its sad to see the commercialization of everything, including relationships and feelings. that`s what makes me puke.

giki19: you can be whomever you want to be. some choose nationality as their first identity, some choose religion and others choose ethnicity. its all up to the individual. i don`t know how i feel about all thse conspiracy type theories of muslims taking over the world etc and how that scares the westerners...for one reason alone..what is the point of taking over the world..i mean reallly..what are you going to do with all that power..spread islam? puhleeze..why spread islam in the awful way that it was after rasool (pbuh)? the awful way meaning with the sword..i mean you very well cannot according to islam force it down peoples throats right? so what you going to do with all that power? all thats going to happen is that certain mullahs will come into power and take peoples rights away, force everyone to grow beards and wear hijab and sites like chowk that garner free thinking will be banned forever. allahkhair karay if such a world come about.

ferozk, temporal (your eyes might hurt, im not good about the typos) and Bg..on the chowk world. very nicely timed piece just got put up about the chowk world. for me it has symbolized..or rather Had symbolized a place where i could come and just be and think freely and not be judged on my thinking. i see i got placed among the activists for my not so mainstream ideas and way of thinking or rather way of living that i project. you are too kind. i saw ferozk`s picture of chowk too bland and too black and white....we are afterall msotly brown and this is what we embrace and celebrate in this cyber world. i don`t feel too much a citizen of of it as some seem to but i do definetlty feel a part of it. as for the new immigrants comming in to mix with the old...i consider myself as the first wave of immigrants who came in..people like Anita and BG, saima and sr have been here ( the natives..along with umair and rad and all the others im missing out) and will continue to enlighten us with their ideas and commentary and its great to think that i came on into this world, not so much by mistake but that i was able to find my place and was welcomed and also made part of a growing community. im here to welcome new people like, for instance Zed ( who i found out was my best friend in third grade, we both loved english..it is such a small world isn`t it?). umair and i share a friend who had first mentioned the site to me and he reminisces about when umair had told him all about it and he is amazed at the way it has just taken off. i am amazed constantly by the new ideas and also at my narrow-mindedness at thinking that doctors and engineers could not write as well as they do. that if anything takes me most by surprise. there is a nation of thinkers and philosophers out there in south asia and they are just getting the chance to see waht it is like to be published and how their work is received. anyhow, i liked bg`s version of it much more than yours feroz..but perhaps we should move this discussion on to the new piece that was just posted about this. :)

re: v-day. its so absolutely pointelss to have a day called valentines day. it is one of the most commercialized non secular holidays that has NO point at all wahtsoever unless you own a hallmark store. then ofcourse, you are rolling in the dough. its ridiculous that only ONE day out of the whole year is when you let your loved ones know that they are loved. not only that but for those who are lonley and are not happy about it to begin with are just reminded of this fact. those who are happy being just who they are and don`t feel the need for a sgnificant other begin to wonder about themselves around this time of year and it causes them to second guess their lives. i was walking with some flowers on friday and i had most of the women on the streets just gaze at me longingly. i have never been so disturbed. what disturned me most is that these women would probably not feel this way if it were not instilled in them through commercials and society that it is NOT OK To be unattached. people who say they hate valentines day are usually stigmatized as those who coldnt get dates and had no one who loved them. trust me..there are people out there who are plenty loved but still don`t see the point of valentines day. i mean, buying these expensive roses and making sure the movie you need to see is not sold out not to mention the restuarant you need to take your date out to..i mean come on..couldnlt you just do it some other day? it might actually mean more to that special somone then..you telling them you love them on just any ole day...there are many counter arguments to having v-day, like why then have mothers day and fathers day, teachers day etcetc...its all the capitalist conspircay ofcourse but the other holidays don`t cause unattached men and women feel pressure to be attached. imagine having something like this in pakistan on a large scale...not only are women pressured to get married, now there would be pressure to have a valentine each february lined up...talk about self esteem in that case.



for what its worth, i hope you all, in your own ways, celebrated the 14th of february, happy and content. february is a month of love, dreams and fanstasy..it being eqauted with the pisceans among us.

take care

rizvi

Re: GIKI99 (79)

``...make us Muslims the leaders of the next century.``

Wake up and smell the coffee, dude!

Bg : What is it about Valentine`s day that makes you puke? After all, its the guys who have to spend 3x the price on Roses ($75/dozen on this day). Is it the fact that Paki males just dont pay it any attention in N.A if they are married to/or dating? desi chicks?

Just cause you dont get some/any is no reason to wanna puke. This is one American custom which is definitely a way of saying to that special someone that I Love U/I thought about U/You mean something to me. Cant imagine why you hate V-Day!

Curious to know your reasons.

OMAR1974

Dear Zehra:

Thanks for referring to me as a Patriarch! Thats a term i haven`t been labelled with till now! As for asking your mommy and daddy about permission for everything, well, how about asking them if they mind your bringing over your latest heart throb from campus over to visit your home, and maybe stay over a few days? Or would you rather give them a surprise when you go back home for the summer? :)

Just trying to define the limits of acceptability & personal autonomy w/o offending anyone! :) This maybe a sensitive issue for u. But, its something which all of us should ask ourselves, and its not restricted to u alone. Think of the hijab issue as a subset of personal autonomy. Some of us have more, some less. And isint that defined primarily by our families when we are growing up?

Just cause you wear hijab does not mean you cant be as liberal as anyone else (to answer an old question u posed) or that you are a close minded freak yourself. On the other hand the words, [Zehra quote] Choice? What Choice? (with regard to your wearing the hijab that you posted in an earlier discussion) certainly make me feel that you are yourself unsure of your identity. And that is okay! So you dont have to convince us about why you are doing it, and be all defensive about it. Its okay to be unsure and express that. You dont have to give any definitive answers to me or anyone else to justify yourself. Nor do u have to represent all hijabans. Just yourself. Its also okay if your decide later in life to discard it. There is nothing for u to prove to the world by either wearing it, or refusing to wear it.

Friends? Why not. Absolutely.

My view is that there are no strangers in the world, just friends you havent met yet.

OMAR

Feroze:

Some glaring ommisions in your post---Wasiq, Beena Saima, & Shandana. The other `management` names that are not very visible were mentioned by bg.

To me Chowk is an exclusive Carribean Cruise ship, which I can board or disembark at any time thru cyber magic.

It has its main ball room, piano bar, auditorium, casino, coffee shop, several specialty dining rooms, gym----you know the routine------AND it calls on a different exotic port every day---some ports are on the map book some are not.

The un-ending pleasure of S.S. Chowk for me is that I can chose when to visit it and once onboard I can decide where to relax, sit, indulge or walk by.

Now to some specifics.

----I must argue in favour of the Management to `disembark`` rowdies. We all must behave in a responsible way....(I know, I know, sometimes your holiness and more often this scribe drag ourselves almost to the edge of precipice, where perhaps only a gentle push from the Mighty can doom us in cyberspace!)

----Resident cynic? Me? No! I merely observe submissions (read CONTENT WITH STYLE) .
Can`t stand more than three typos or errors in one article.

----It is not only old vs. new Chowkies; it is them
TOTEM POLES; Saad`s Angraziat factor; the tint in our eye glasses; the chips on our shoulders that we think we`ve shaken off: these and more make us act the way we do
(Confession: I steer clear of some pompous egos, usually followed by regret at not having punctured their inflated egos every so slightly. But if we overcame slight imperfections would`t we become perfect? The thought gives me shivers!)

Enough for now. Unlike skiing I have to run a more mundane errand.

regards

Zehra,

Very well-written, it captures the feelings of the muslims raised in the US fairly accurately

with a nice comical side to it also. The replies seem to be dominated by quite a few

Northeasterners who like to argue simple concepts using only complex terms. Being a

reformed Northeasterner now in the South, I am going to stick to the simple issues that

you have addressed in your article and here are my two cents on each of them:

1) Hijab - Honestly speaking I truly admire the young muslim girls who have ‘truly’ adapted the Hijab into their lifestyle. I emphasize the word ‘truly’ becuase despite the fact that there are some really modest and sincere girls that wear the hijab, there are also many that wear make-up and jewellry along with their hijab - this seems to defeat the whole purpose. In my opinion the hijab in essence is really only a symbol of a woman’s modesty.

Whether or not a woman wears the hijab is not as important as whether or not she carries herself and acts modestly.

Having lived a number of years in Saudi Arabia before the US, I have seen firsthand how women can act quite immodestly while hiding behind the ‘abaya’(arab equivalent of burkha). First of all the material of the abaya was such that it draped right along the shape of a woman’s body (seemed to defeat the whole purpose), secondly they often walked in a very seductive manner in public places, thirdly any part of their body that was exposed such as their hands and feet were heavily decorated with jewellry and mehendi and they frequently made a very conscious effort to display it - so despite the fact that they were covered they definitely were trying to attract the opposite sex. (having seen Arab men I wonder why?!)

As a generation-X Pakistani-American muslim I have often contemplated wearing the hijab and have arrived at the conclusion that wearing the hijab is not as important as acting modestly and respectfully in public, however, those that do wear the hijab and still act modestly are truly good muslims in my opinion.

2) Future of muslims in America - Losing the strength of ou