Growing up an American Muslim

Maliani wrote:

``Muslim customs and religion dictate that a woman must be a virgin before marriage. In fact if you look at Pakistani Nikah nama forms, one of the question is about bride`s virginity but there is no question about groom`s virginity.``

First of all Pakistani customs and even Arab customs should not be used as examples of religious orders. Secondly, I don`t remember this clause that you are talking about in the Pakistani Nikahnama.

I don`t know why most people assume just like the myth that all arabs are muslims that all their customs also come from Islam.

You must also remember that some of the most heinous crimes that are ccommitted in our society are due to following the customs of the region before Islam. You are trying to paint Islam as the problem here which is exactly contrary to what Riffat Hassan and Aasma Jahangir said during these presentations on ABC.

i need someone to go over exactly what the hudood ordinance and the zina laws are...i would prefer that the history behind them also be elaborated on...

faraz, how possible do you think it is to repeal these laws in pakistan as you mentioned in your post and is there work being done in that vein of thinking?

my mom was able to see both parts of the program and unfortuantely did not tape any of it...while we were living in pakistan , my siblings and i, it seems, led an almost sequestered life in a bubble..my horror at what was happening was met by a matter of fact attitude and a disbelief on both our parts..on my part that it was happening and on my mothers part for my being so naive. she takes it for granted that i would know about the lives of the people she kept me hidden from..the stories that were whispered with my aya but not shared with us. i guess i was supposed to get this sordid side of pakistan thru osmosis. i think we just lost track of time and by the time i was old enough to talk about it with my mother it was no longer in the forefront of our priorities...espcailly since we were in the states. this is what i am afraid of...once this news is no longer in the forefront, what will happen to these women? its not like its stopping now but atleast there is light on the issue and something can be done.

what is really distressing is that it is the women (this is all heresay, i have not been able to watch either part one or two as of yet), are the ones who are prepetuating these crimes. the women are not standing up agaisnt it. they need somehow to realize that these killings are in no way, what so ever islamic or rational.

i think the one mistake that people going in to help make is that we do not speak the language of these women..i am not speaking about urdu..you could go in there and tell them in urdu that they shouldn`t stand up for what is happening and that they have just as equal rights as men and how many of them do you think would actully agree with you...very few..speak to them in their language. tell them what the islamic law is..it does not say to kill a woman just for leaving the house without permission or it does not say to kill her for talking to a male cousin or sumthing. speaking the vernacular of the people in a way that they will understand is what is importnat here. i mean, no offense to asma jehnagir`s work or to her, but i can just imagine how much these women can relate to her in her nice house and nice car...not very much.

did anyone tape the show? i need a copy.

chowk should set up a place where items like this can be placed up for sale (thru abc, no breaking the law in that) and proceeds go to these women.

i would like to continue but i find that words are just not doing it for me right now and in fear of being inarticulate i will stop now.

rizvi

Sindh is not immune to honor killings, just because Shah Abdul Latif Bhitai wrote some beautiful poetry. As part of my heritage, I also get to have the lovely tradition of karo-kari, in which usually the man goes free but the woman is the one that gets killed.

But, good news - just yesterday, in the court case of Humaira and Mahmood Butt (she married him of her own free choice, the parents had her caught, arrested, and produced a trumped up court case of zina against her as they claimed she had married her cousin and even produced a wedding video - in which she was weeping and completely upset), the judge upheld their marriage as legal and threw the case out of court!

The policeman who had Humaira jailed was himself jailed and ordered to pay a fine for the gross violation of justice.

Afrasiyab wrote:
``First of all Pakistani customs and even Arab customs should not be used as examples of religious orders. Secondly, I don`t remember this clause that you are talking about in the Pakistani Nikahnama.``

Perhaps I am wrong (in case of Pakistan), but Islam emerged as an Arab religion and therefore their culture/customs should be considered when discussing Islam. Islam has incorporated lot of Pagan Arab customs and i don`t want to go into those details here.

Secondly, there is a clause i mentioned in the nikkah nama - you should read carefully if you have one ;-) i have one and i know!

Getting back to my point, Islamic law (sharia), suggests that a single woman who loses her virginity should suffer 100 lashes after proof is obtained. And for an Adultress the sentence is death by stoning. So basically Islam is encouraging violence.

Maliani wrote:

``Islam has incorporated lot of Pagan Arab customs.``

Sorry, that is erronous. `Muslims` adopted pagan arab customs or pagan Indian customs not Islam.



Maliani wrote:

``Secondly, there is a clause i mentioned in the nikkah nama - you should read carefully if you have one ;-) i have one and i know!``

I don`t have one fortuenately, I guess or unfortuenately, whichever way you wanna look at it:) Why don`t you provide me with the wordings and the clause number of that nikahnama. It will help. Also, you must realize that by the token of my earlier arguement the point about PAKISTANI laws is moot. They are not all Islamic, infact, I can`t think of anyone that is by letter or by spirit in conformity with Islam.

Maliani wrote:

``Getting back to my point, Islamic law (sharia), suggests that a single woman who loses her virginity should suffer 100 lashes after proof is obtained. And for an Adultress the sentence is death by stoning. So basically Islam is encouraging violence.``

I don`t know where you are getting this from. Please refer to the sources and if possible post them with your reply. Thanx. Look forward to a reply from you soon.

PS I was wondering, if maybe, we should take this discussion elsewhere, since this section has over a hundred replies on it already.

What do you say.

re bina and maliani
``Sindh is not immune to honor killings, just because Shah Abdul Latif Bhitai wrote some beautiful poetry``

bina makes a very valid point. maliani, could you explain?

re maliani: you said in a post along time ago in this piece : ``BTW, Islam should not be our identity but simply a religion, our identity should be our culture.`` this is the same argument you are trying to preesnt currently again. you are mistaken in assuming that ther is only one answer as to where the religion we lovingly call Islam came from...there is no one right answer and instead of etching into stone your answer..consider the alternatives..( which have been presented in this ongoing discussion).

back to the honor killings..how about a petition to the governments..has anyone come across any as of yet? i would imagine they are all over the net at this point..maybe even a petition to our own government (applies to US readers) to sanction the governments who do not strengthen their laws regarding the honor crimes. it would mean ofcourse, tightening sanctions on an already unsteady pakistan but what can be done? has anyone heard from cair or icna etcetc.? anyone on their mailing list? i haven`t joined any of their email lists for fear of getting the `hadith a day that will keep the devil away`. money can be sent to the hotlines and orgaznizations within these countries who are trying to stop the honor crimes and to protect the women who run away from home for fear of their lives. i know that such organizations exist in Jordan and in Israel. Also, just FYI, the abc website has the two day interview on their site if anyone wants to take alook at it. its the transcript or atleast a part of it..i haven`t been able to go thru it all as of yet. please let me know if anyone has any other info...also, if you are interested if i find out more info please let me know either by email or interact....i don`t want to have to use this forum needlessly.

bina: if you have any info on the type of work going on in pakistan, (beyond the scope of the interview) could you share with us please?

rizvi

Re: Zehra

While I was downtown this afternoon, I saw a whole gaggle of hijabs walking on the other side of the street! Most of the colors were white, but some were darker colors....

Is there a color requirement....can you wear a hijab that has polka dots on it?

How about one which has the characters from Stars Wars printed on them....can imagine Darth Vader saying, ``fight your hijab Zehra and come to the dark side, Zehra.......``

Laters...:)

ferozk: one of these days i`ll lend you my tie dye hijab...it is `the` latest in hijab wear...we are trying to come up with some catchy slogan to promote the line..like, the salon slectives ad..have some men in beards singing across the street..who`s that lady? who`s that laaady?

or even have some emaciated heroin addicted hijabis with great bods whispering things like..under where? under here...or my personal fave..a spin on that indian number..hijab kay neechay kiya hai hijab kay neechay, nikab kay peechay kya hai, nikab kay peechay..

i think we will run a survey to see which one of these ideas gel..mebbe i will take it to the next ISNA conference.

ps..my birthday is this wednesday..mebbe you can get me one for all my 21 tender years.

rizvi

Re: Ferozk #100

Given these three conditions, it is reasonable, if not certain, to suggest that Islamic idenity would have metamorphed and mutated in reaction to and with the European influences surrounding it.

OMAR1974: Dear Feroz I hate to disagree with u, but I will. I think if the Battle of Tours had indeed been won in 732, the Arabs would have pushed much deeper into W.Europe than you seem to assume, however as for a metamorphosis of Islam ? Debatable. For starters, I have a strong feeling that while Arabs were certainly partial to both blondes (the last Arab ruler Abd-ul-Radman? had 1% Arab blood i recall reading somewhere) and wine, Non Arab MUSLIMS would have overtaken the rule of the Arabs by today, I have in mind the N.African brand of Islam, and you can forget about indulging in wine & cheese tasting festivals with those guys in charge. (Syed Qutb, Maudoodi et al`s brand of Islam). BTW, enjoyed the digression :)

Cheers,

OMAR1974

HAPPY BIRTHDAY ZEHRA !!!

MAY YOU HAVE MANY MORE !!!

HAPPY BIRTHDAY ZEHRA !!!

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO U !!!

lETS all raise a glass and imbibe a Toast to celebrate Zehra`s 21st birthday. Will she be visting the local pub/bar around campus? Don`t hold your breath folks .... although i do find the description of the hijab wearer in Sex Everywhere a trifle amusing. But seriously, enough already, Lets not allow the Hijab to be

used as a yardstick to measure her individuality and make what may be unjustified assumptions about her personally.

Cheers

OMAR1974

re bina, bg

I never stated that Sindh is immune from honour killings!! What i intended was that honour killings were alien to this region (including Punjab, Pakthtoonkhwa) before the arrival of Islam.

Actually, statistically speaking the incidents have increased since Zia`s era.

Coming back to Sindh, there are soom grass root organizations working to elimiate this evil. One of the more active one is ``Sindhiari Tehreek``.

Re: Omar1974 post # 127

Agreed. That is why historic speculation can be so interesting. The idea of non-Arabs dominating the scene was interesting, but doesn`t that itself suggest a metamorphis of the prevailing concepts? Would love to hear more on this.

Zehra:

Happy Birthday....21, so you are legal! I will drink a toast to you. Zehra, you need to go to the nearest watering hole and get wasted and just, once, hit on guys! It is because of this reason that I admire the Catholic religion so much. Love the concept of confession - no matter what you`re sins, you`ll be forgiven.

Sinner: Forgive me father for I have sinned!

Prist: Yes!

Sinner: Yesterday, while at the petting zoo, I went down on a baby graffee!

Priest: Yes, that is a serious sin. Say 40 hail marys and 60 hail fathers and ask for forgiveness!

re:Ferozk

Or she could go to Mekkah for Haj and absolve herself from all the sins ;-)

Mailiani : Zehra hajji `99

Without a Mehram she doesn`t have the option, hijab or no hijab.

cheers,

OMAR1974

Zehra (# 103)

`Thoughts about our children`s ID` (question addressed to Anne, Anita and myself)

It wasn`t that I neglected answering you, I just hadn`t checked this discussion in several days and was not really keeping up. But since you specifically asked here I am.

But first YOU please answer a trivial question. Why do you only use all lower case letters in your writing. You didn`t used to at first, but now you do. First it was BG (who became bg) and now Zehra is in the process of becoming zehra. I`m in no way trying to convince anyone to use UPPER case letters (in first person singular pronouns, beginning of sentences and proper nouns, not to mention name initials and acromyms). BG, in one of her posts somewhere claimed that she was plain old lazy to press the `shift` key every time. What is your reason? Is it some radical feminist revolt against patriarchal conventions of English language or what? There is a trend starting here as I`m beginning to notice others do it more and more. I`m just plain old curious.

Now to my younger child`s identity (my older one is going on 17 and she has already formed one -which will no doubt evolve further). That issue is simply going to have to be dealt by him when he gets old enough to spell `identity crisis`. In the mean time all we intend to do is to give him UNCONDITIONAL love and acceptance and try to encourage him in being the best he can be in whatever it is that he discovers he does best. We have no intention of shoving any pre-packaged cultural system down his throat. He will see and observe and draw his own inferences. We do intend to supplenent his education with home-schooling and shall always tell him whatever he wishes to know and steer him in the direction of learning more about it (whatever `it` is).

I believe an emotionally secure child will enter adolescence better quipped to discover his own identity than to cling on to hand-me-down parental ID parcels. It will just depend on the child`s personality and inclinations. Both his mother and I feel comfortable about who we are and feel to need to cast our child in our own immages. He will be whoever he is, and that is only his job to discover.

re: Ferozk: ``Sharam - shame- in culture``

EXCELLENT point. I`ve been a be-sharam most of my adult life and don`t care for any such nonsence. Rhett Buttler, I think it was, in Gone with the Wind, who says to Scarlet in the study at Seven Oaks, something to the effect that if one is brave and learns to not care about one`s reputation one learns that life really becomes very comfortable. This sharam bullshit is one of our FOUR big curses:

Adab, lehaaz, izzat aur sharam.

Thank you for bringing it up.

re: Faraz #107 ``nation of jahils``

Since you have generalized about the national average, I wonder how much of it stems from our incestuous in-breeding resulting in the gene pool degradation. Anita Zadi wrote an piece once here on Chowk about our nation of cousin phuckers.

re: afrasiyab #: 122

In response to Maliani (``Islam has incorporated lot of Pagan Arab customs.``) you wrote:

[`` Sorry, that is erronous. `Muslims` adopted pagan arab customs or pagan Indian customs not Islam...``]

Maliani said nothing of pagan Indian custom, so lets leave that out. As for pagan Arab customs, the annual worship gathering at Mecca (now Hajj) was an ancient pagan custom which Prophet Mohammad adopted and incorporated into his religion, Islam. This included running circles around the black stone housed in Kabah. Things that the Prophet himself adopted, I think it is safe to say, are a part of `Islam` (like the annual worship gathering at Mecca) and not just something which the `Muslims` picked up from the Arab pagans.

...SR

(please excuse the typos, its late and I`m stupified.)