Growing up an American Muslim

Ferozk: You may not like it buddy, but Latinos, their culture, the Spanish language is here to stay in America. In many of the large cities of the US, it is the Latino which is the largest block of votes. In much of California, they are the majority... and it is that culture and that politics that will in the coming decades determine how the US evolves. Thankfully, they are a tolerant lot, far more so than whites, or other immigrants including the south asians... Don`t worry you won`t have to subsidize anything too much too long... since that culture is poised to be the dominant culture in the US, at least on both sides of the coasts, the southwest, and increasingly in the mid-west... Desis might well get some fovor out of this, since there are many cultural similarities... provided they don`t get wind of the recationaryism within the south asian communities in the US.

Zehra

Darn!! I was thinking about writing something along

the same lines... but gave up after i realized it

would have to be a trilogy ..

Part1--

`` Growing up a British/Pakistani Muslim in Saudi

Arabia where everyone kicks u around for being

non-arab...``

Part 2--

`` Continuing Growing up as a British/Pakistani

Muslim in Pakistan where u are kicked around coz yer

parents were not born in the boundaries of Pakistan``

Part 3--

`` Kinda grown-up British/Pakistani Muslim.. back

in Britain trying to figure out, `what the hell is

going on?` ``

I wanted to jump in the discussion...but the smog in karachi has clogged my brain ... i doubt i`ll say anything

intelligent. Besides .. the regulars are doing a good job .. i think i`ll just read and be enlightened.

ArtZ

Zehra:

My apologies! stand corrected.

Feroze:

Left an interact on the other thread-MATTER OF P.

regards

Re: Aliya post # 15

First of all, to all Chowkwallas and to you, I sincerely apolgise for the profane language I used. You were absolutely justified in admonishing my lack of manners on that point. I stand corrected.

I hope you`ll not be too discouraged by my posts to this article, but I am going to rant on this topic. In the words of a wise and irreverent sage, named Temporal, I am going to continually stir the hornet`s nest!

As to your arguments, I disagree on the simple point that if you are going to mess with the bull, you are going to get the horns. Aliya bibi, I have been kicked, punched, had my shoulder broken and have a few scars from some close encounters with a knife. I have been threatend with death on more than one occassion. The only reason that I am still here, is because I did not back down. I could have folded my tents and could easily have drifted off into the night, but I did not. I stood my ground and I fought my fights. I lost a few and I won some. Thats life, you roll the iron dice and you take your chances.

When I first came to this continent, in Canada, and later in these states, I had to fight tooth and nail for everything. I never expected anything to be handed to me on a silver plate and I knew that I had to be thrice as good as any other American. During my senior semester, I lived on top ramen and I still remember going to sleep with hunger pangs. I never asked for a quarter in any fight, because I knew none would be given to me.

This is where my resentment springs from. The immigrants, regardless of their national origins, who come here, expect everything to be handed to them and that this is the land of milk and honey. Yes, it is free, but you have to pay your dues before you can dine on a feast of milk and honey. This is specially true of the Hispanics. They are not willing to assimilate in the main stream and they are determined to keep their old ways. I have nothing against that, but what angers me is when they ask me to subsidize their cultural traditions. Being an early arrival myself, do I have the right to judge those before me? Yes, I do. I will not stand by while the events which influence my life unfold around me. If I see something which irks me, I will not turn around and go and sulk in some corner, but I will protest and I will rage against it.

Aliya bibi, the only reason I have survivied this harsh, cold and alien land, is because I learned the ways of the street. The life of an immigrant in this country is a street fight. It is not fought with Queensbury rules; it is not a fair fight. It is a dirty fight. In a street fight, Aliya bibi, if you do not put your opponent down, he is going to put you down and if you lose, you have no one to blame but yourself. Everything I do is for the brass ring, because there is no prize for coming second in this culture and there are two kinds of people in this culture; those that exploit and those who get exploited.

I apolgise for Zehra for using her article as a forum for this sort of sentiment, but that is the reality I face every day. Aliya bibi, the world may preach equality, but it will never practice what it preaches. In a perfect world, things may make sense, but this not a perfect world we live in and I react to, in trying to live, the reality as it exists and not I what I would wish it to be.

Re Frozk:

I suggest you take a cold shower - cause what you say makes no sense ;-)

But anyway, this hatred/stereotype is not new for immigrants coming to US. In the past, Irish, Italians, Chinese, Latins, all have been targets of stereotypes. Arabs are the current targets, and since we are mostly muslims (and some of us try to associate with Arabs) - are (wrongfully) considered Arabs as well. But by in large the society here is tolerant and more importantly this country has secular laws. Unlike, the ``land of the pure`` you don`t get killed here for belonging to a different religion or sect or burnt with acid for not wearing a hijab.

BTW, Islam should not be our identity but simply a religion, our identity should be our culture.

Feroze:

maliani may have stumbled on to something very important-----roll the dice( as you say)-----take a cold shower (as he says) and think up of some new opening lines----Valentine`s day is round the corner!

regards

Re: maliani post # 19

I am not sure which of my posts you were refering to, but I will try to give an answer. I think you mis-read my posts. I don`t a care a whit for sterotypes, be they Arabs or Muslims or Muslims pretending to Arabs or what ever. There are sterotypical targets in any society and whether the Arab-Muslim is hated or liked, I really don`t care.

Also, secular laws have nothing to do with what I was saying. My only complaint was, which Altaf in his post # 21 insightfully picked up, that I do not like to give special treatment to minorities just because they happen to be different. That is my only problem with multi-ethnic mosaic which the United States is turning into. I understand that everything evolves and not to evolve, is to die slowly. I have nothing against that argument.

Like Harry Truman said, ``if you can`t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!``

Re: Altaf post # 21

You have brought up some valid points. I am not going to disagree with what you have said, since that is the reality of what is going to happen in this country. The only thing which bothers me in this debate, multiculturism, is that every distinct ethnic group is slicing a piece of the American pie and it is getting increasingly difficult to forge a consensus on any issue, due to the polarization of differing viewpoints.

As a political operative, Gods knows that I am attuned to the votes and after the Hispanic voting block, the next emergent voting block is the Muslims, but that is still a few years ahead of us. Politically speaking, the idea of a cultural mosaic is a nightmare, because in order to satisfy all competing interests, the end result is that you are making promises that are diametrically opposed to what needs to happen. This country is owned by special political interests, be they AMA, NRA, etc and with the ethnic mix, it is damn near impossible to get anything done, because none of these groups wants to compromise. The politics of this country, the judicary, executive and the legislative, operate on the basis of compromise and the system of checks and balances was meant to encourage a sense of compromise.

This against my Republican mantra, but enough is enough and this country needs to revert back to what it was supposed to be and what Jefferson wanted - a populist democracy.

Anyways, yaar, thanks for bring some sanity into this discussion. It was spinning out of control!

``My take on that is to change what being ``american`` is all about. I want the term to fit who I am because dammit! I am american. As an american I can be whomever I choose to be and whoever doesn`t like it, can take a hike :)``

You go girl:)

I love it. That is the attitude you should walk with. Ferozek, hay koi jawab.

(As usual chingari chodday ja raha hoon)

ArtZ:

Please please please write your article! Emphasis on the part of what it`s like to be Pakistani/Muslim growing up in Britain. I feel like it`s a whole world I know nothing about. They`ve been going through this for so much longer than the North American counterparts, and I want to know what it`s like. It seems so much rougher, more violent, the racism more open, the hatred more apparent. It breeds a totally different race. Is there any truth to the comment that the Asians in Britain are treated the way the blacks are in the United States?

Omar1974: Thanks for your comments about circumcision and hijab. I found them very relevant. I feel that hijab is not a farz in Islam (after extensive reading, study, etc. could not find enough evidence to convince me that it was mandated by God). Still it is a practice less harmful than circumcision physically. Yet the way of convincing women that it is necessary (for whatever reason - morality, purity, a source of pride etc.) is the same as with female circumcision. In some quarters it verges on emotional blackmail. I couldn`t agree more with what you said about how our women take something negative and view it in a positive social context in the hopes that it will become more appealing. To me, it just goes against the grain.

ArtZ:

Please please please write your article! Emphasis on the part of what it`s like to be Pakistani/Muslim growing up in Britain. I feel like it`s a whole world I know nothing about. They`ve been going through this for so much longer than the North American counterparts, and I want to know what it`s like. It seems so much rougher, more violent, the racism more open, the hatred more apparent. It breeds a totally different race. Is there any truth to the comment that the Asians in Britain are treated the way the blacks are in the United States?

Omar1974: Thanks for your comments about circumcision and hijab. I found them very relevant. I feel that hijab is not a farz in Islam (after extensive reading, study, etc. could not find enough evidence to convince me that it was mandated by God). Still it is a practice less harmful than circumcision physically. Yet the way of convincing women that it is necessary (for whatever reason - morality, purity, a source of pride etc.) is the same as with female circumcision. In some quarters it verges on emotional blackmail. I couldn`t agree more with what you said about how our women take something negative and view it in a positive social context in the hopes that it will become more appealing. To me, it just goes against logic.

re: omar1974

i am absolutely dumbfounded by the fact that you have managed to draw a whole profile of Zehra just on the basis of her wearing a Hijab. you equate her choice, yes choice (i do know her) as a product of conditioning, ostracized adolesence, and false martyr complex.

Meanwhile you stand their with this holier than though voice of reason that is not interrupted by your very own biases or should i say conditioning. what fascinates me about (ex-)muslim `progressive boys` like you is how you run to defend a muslim womens right to wear a hijab but turn around to assert your progressiveness by reducing her to the status just that a hijabi, not a complete individual. so what is the difference between you and others who want to liberate the muslim women by forcing them to `unveil` themselves?

people have many different ways of relating to their belief systems, their identities. these relationships are not fixed in stone, inscribed in genes. one should have the right to express their identity any way they wish to as long as they are not causing harm to others. your false characterization of Zehra is a example of the pre-suppositions that you have about women who wear the hijab; i.e. she wears a hijab so she must be oppressed or brainwashed. if you want to get down to it we are all brainwashed by one form of discourse or another. to say that you hold the absolute truth on complex social issues is to be as fundamentalist as any retro-grade taliban mullah.

my thirty seconds of glory again.

temporal and ferozk..yaar tum logoon kay pass aur koiee kaam nahi hai? heheh, kidding, love hearing from you guys and im absolutely psyched that these issues are coming up into the forefront..thanks to the aliya/ferozk interaction.

re: omar1974 you said ``any comments?``

PLENTY. if you would like to know my stance on hijab please refer to the article by shandana minhas ``this should do it``. i went into unnecessary detail about my private life and the reasons i wore hijab. also see bina shahs article dealing with the shariat bill being passed in pakistan..the name of the article escapes me at this moment. regardless of my stance on hijab i must say, you have a patriarchal view on it yourself. you say that if you had a sister and if she wanted to wear hijab you would be against that....that if ANYTHING is what one should not have to deal with. being forced to be what somone else wants them to be. sometimes i think i wear hijab becuase i love the shocking value that comes from it. i routinely get stopped on the street from classmates asking why i wear hijab when i am not reinforcing any of their sterotypes that go along with it. i tell them its time that things changed and that everything really comes down to illusion doesnt it? what is my reality and how well can you deal with it, but more importantly, how is affecting your preception of the world? now im not saying that i wear hijab as a cute and clever gimmic, but for my own personal reasons..the shock value is just a bonus. thanks for your comments.

re: artz..WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN? your response cracked me up, but then you always did. email me or die :) also, did you say karachi???

re: ferozk..my my, preaching tons and tons of violence now, arent we? i know im totally going to come across a peace preaching hippie, but really, is alllll that violence necessary..i see your republican prespective but what about us liberals who want to give peace a chance? what about being the better person? im not saying to back down but is there NO other way we can go about this? are the canucks realllly that bad? also, is quebec city really as beautiful as some people say? one of these days, one of these days.

Re: maliani…you said:

``BTW, Islam should not be our identity but simply a religion, our identity should be our culture.``

Don`t you think the three are inextricably linked? I mean how does one differentiate between your religion, your identity and your culture? I call myself an American Muslim..that is my identity and I use both culture and religion to identity myself with. Also, many religions around the world, and we can talk specifically about Islam derive their culture from their religion..which would negate your point completely. Thanks for the commentary…though the bad mouthing of other readers could be omitted.

Re: afraisayab..you said :

``However, I am always amazed at the mentality behind the Muslims who were born here``

I was born and for most of the part have been bred here. Your point is a valid one of fob`s vs abcd`s but since in some circles im considered a fob and in others a abcd, I can say ive seen both sides of the picture..as for people whining about discrimination..well, we know it exist, but should really not whine about it. As ferozk has been saying, get up and fight, its not about to be handed to you on a chandi ka platter. I don`t quite agree with his aggressive stance but feel that awareness is ofcourse the key…education as always comes in and people like, fozia, who was the `token muslim` in her class and had to field questions, people like that make a difference. As I wrote, gone is the terrorist and enter your next door neighbors or classmates. We are not so foreign anymore and are making forays into mainstream culture all the time (the runways, Madonna, Talvin Singh, Cornershop, its all there). If we stop thinking of ourselves as foreign so will everyone else. Then again, why let go of who we are to become more `american`? My take on that is to change what being ``american`` is all about. I want the term to fit who I am because dammit! I am american. As an american I can be whomever I choose to be and whoever doesn`t like it, can take a hike :)

Re: gk…you said:

``I don`t want them to not fit in or to have to live a dual lifestyle, one at home and one at school.... yet the balance seems to be just out of my reach....am I missing something?``

don`t kid yourself. We all live dual lifestlyes. And its not only south asians, its all minorites who are trying to fit into the culture and scoiety that is different from their ``indigenous`` one ( I do qustion how mcuh of their societies are going to be left untouched by the corporate kfc, pizza hut fingers). The balance is in knowing that you have this duality and not feeling strange or bewildered by it but to embrace it ( I feel so completely cheesy at this point). By embracing this duality they can get the best ( and yes, there will be some not so good parts) of both worlds and be better, more aware, more understanding people. I went to pakistan for my formative years so take all of this with a handfull of salt. Doesn`t mean I still didn`t have to deal with it.

Thanks everyone for your comments. Its been a while since I have `dil khol kay baat` on chowk.

z.rizvi

Ms. Rizvi,

First of all you make it clear that there are conflicts between being a Muslim and being American but you never really explain them. What is it that you find so hard about being a Muslim in America. Name calling? Is that it? Please...most minorities have been subjected to far worse.

You also are very disturbed at the media image of Muslims, ie one of terrorists. Ever wonder why that stereotype exists. Could it be that ``our people`` have a higher than average propensity to blow up things (specially buildings with people inside). You yourself were ``convinced`` that the Okhlahoma blast was the work of Muslims. How can you expect apple-pie-Americans to not have the same reaction? Stereotypes do not evaporate overnight.

And pray tell... where do you get off not standing for the pledge of allegiance. Are you not an American? Has this country not given you freedom, an education and a high standard of living? Oh but yeah you get sh_t from cashiers for wearing mehndi. Oh my such oppression. Believe me I have no sympathy for immigrants who do not respect the institutions of this country. I am amazed at the number of immigrants this country accepts, whose loyalty in suspect at best and who expect the U.S. to change for them and won`t adapt to the local culture themselves.

Incidentally, I am working in the U.S. am planning on going back home and have no desire to become an American citizen. And I have no desire to raise a family in the culturally schizophrenic manner in which most desi families do.

Re: Aliya

``My initial objection to Rishi was also about this generalization about ALL hispanics .``

-- I was referring mostly to the views held by white/black Americans in America and also published information available on this issue. It is also a fact that California due to its huge Hispanic population is considering/considered spanish medium primary schools. But then, i perfectly understand that i am nobody to force them to learn English... Again, as a few Hispanics are realising nowadays, only English is going to help them grow up the social/economic ladder. There could be very many spanish speaking areas within America, but without English they would be only a sub-nation of shopkeepers and restauranteurs ....and that too is a fact.

However i stand corrected if it came across as a gross generalization. I accept that there are people within the community who don`t subscribe to this anti-english viewpoint.

Re: Zehra.

I have read your replies about your choice of Hijab in both the articles that you quoted. But then i was never convinced with the reasons that you gave. Heck, i was not convinced because you had to give reasons to convince. (do you really believe you wear it for the shock value you generate ...even if it happens to be a bonus). Then i realized that the truth is your choice is as individual as you are and as long as you can defend it to yourself then you must be okay. And expecting to convince everyone would be too much.

I agree that we all compromise somewhere. Like me choosing not to wear a certain torn, dirty Jeans just to please my parents or not to speak to a girl i somewhat fancy just because my girlfriend does not want me to. And when i make such compromises i come out with a feeling of having lost something within the bigger picture of making someone happier. Sometimes the sacrifices we make might mean a greater loss to us than to the people for whom we make a loss. In such cases, convincing the other person about the rationality would be more helpful for both than to blindly follow his/her wishes. For me something like the Hijab would be such an issue. For you it might be not so.

I would perceive it as causing more harm to my individual self than the comparative gain it provides my parents. In which case i would try hard to convince them about the difference between our choices. The final decision would depend on the circumstances. Like I would definitely marry a girl even against my parents wishes, but not wear a dirty jeans.

The distinction is a very fine line , if at all it exists. And towards the end it is only a personal choice as to where we all draw the line between our and others choice.

And the funnier part is nothing matters at all one way or the other

Responses eagerly awaited,

Rishi

re: bina To read more about what its like to grow up paki/british , pick up any hanif kureshi book. the black album or my all time favorite, the bhudda of suburbia. His books were my first glance at what pakis have to go through in Britain. I had NO idea it was that bad. That might have been why I enjoyed `the black album` actually. As to comparing FGM (female genital mutation) to hijab...you remind me of the close-minded freaks I had to deal with my freshman year in an all women`s institution (and we wonder why I wasn`t too keen about the college experience). They equated hijab with someone who would hold down another woman to see her all chopped up and sexless. I love your work and I think its so important that people like you are in Karachi creating awareness but there is no reason to alienate one group of women from another. Its like the suffragettes movement, where they felt that to further their cause they would have to overlook the rights of black women since the white male still couldn`t get the black chip off his shoulder. It`s a shame and instead of creating a bond that can strengthen and grow you are asking people to choose sides. If I wear hijab I cant be as liberal and open-minded as the rest. That is the message that you send out. I do not want this to turn into a hijab discussion..as ive pointed out countless times before..its pointless to discuss it. Thanks for your comments and lets see if we can pressure artz into becoming the next hanif kureshi.

Re: aliya. What a fascinating thing you said about hispanics in the united states. Who is included under this hispanic name? It usually entails all spanish speaking people ( that is also debatable since many cultures speaking what we term spanish don`t even call it spanish). Most of the south americans in the US feel out of place and do reminecse about their life back home. They are a resilient people and will make it work here because they have better living conditions and the civil wars they fight on the streets are less evil compared to the ones that left them homeless. I am not being in anyway patronizing, just very truthful about what really goes one. This is the land of my birth but I don`t call it home. I have yet to realize what home is for me. Its more a feeling than a physical location. I am lucky that way. There is an idea of home for every culture, especially in the US where its so easy to feel alienated. Im reading a book called `Zami: a different spelling of my name` by Audre Lourde right now and there is this definite idea of feeling isolated in this culture and needing something that represents home…in lourdes case it is this mythical land that her mother used to talk of and for lourde`s mother it is a mythical place that her mother used to talk about. Im getting tangential but the bottom line was, I don`t agree with your statement about this being home and that it is here and now or gone forever for hispanics. Who are we to make calls on their culture anyway? Now im really going to get tangential but since I can`t sit here for the next thirty minutes, mebbe it can be raised at some other point. Its like anthropologists going into these indigenous cultures and coming up with their theories..atleast we see representation in these departments in the present day and age by people of that specific culture being in that academic circle…atleast for south asain anthropology, can`t speak too much for the others. Thanks for raising that up aliya :)

z.rizvi

Re: ferozk

Good to see you back in your usual form.

I thought Altaf`s comments were quite relevant.

A minor detail about your earlier reply though:
How come you took one swipe at all the groups (native Americans, local spanish speaking and immigrant spanish speaking) together, I think these are very different groups and have very different historical/ cultural issues.

My initial objection to Rishi was also about this generalization about ALL hispanics .

Also: your message of fighting till the last breath may apply to Hispanics too who are trying to preserve their culture regardless of what American white majority determines as the ``norm``. Unlike you and me, this is their land by birth and not by choice, for many of them, their culture is not thriving in Pakistan or India or wherever, for them, its here and now or gone forever.