Growing up an American Muslim

zehra, a serious topic very humorously expressed. enjoyed reading.

Re: Zehra

Religion is a subset of Culture and not the other way round!!

Re: Ferozk

What i wanted to comment was that you cannot discuss race relations simply on personal experience. And if you were beaten and stabbed it was totally inhumane and shouldn`t have happened. And it certainly does not justify that since it happened with you may happen to other immigrants as well.

Re: Faraz
You say ``..... and who expect the U.S. to change for them and won`t adapt to the local culture themselves.``

Interesting! Now you should apply this same statement in the case of Pakistan especially Sindh where muslim immigrants from India not only rejected the local culture but enforced their language and culture and expected the locals to change for them and did succeed to some extent.

Re: Zehra

BTW nations are made by common history, language, culture and socio-political interests.

Zehra:

well i would email but i dont have yer addie with me so y dont u email me??

and yes i said Karachi .. long story :)

Bina:

Unfortunately i`ve been an eternal FOB ... never stayed in one place long enough to figure it out ..

But as far as Asians in Britain are concerned ... well I have been living there for nearly 4 years now and there are soooo many elements that must be included in any article about the subject ... maybe it could be a sub-trilogy to my original trilogy :)

as far as Asians beaing treated as Blacks ... couldnt say for sure ... i dont have first hand knowledge about the US .. only what i hear, read, or see during my short visits there ..

but here is something interesting ... around November 98 i think .. there was this whole debate going on in various cirlces in London ... about whether `Asians` should be considered a separate race from `Blacks` ... my 2 bits in the opinion poll that followed were ... We Asians are more racist .. towards Africans as compared to any other grouping .. so that by default makes us a separate racial group ... QED :)

but I will soon post something about Muslims in Britain ..

ArtZ.

RE: Faraz

I was giggling throughout your response…this is said in no way to demean you at all but to let you know that i wasn`t offended. ( im sure you didn`t mean to offend so don`t worry, you didn`t). First of all let me make it clear that I never meant to explain anything. It was not an analytical essay but more a catharthic one. It wasn`t meant to edify anyone or any issue but written for the mere pleasure of writing and to collect my prize money ( yep, I got paid for that one). Secondly, name-calling for an adolescent is one of the worst things to happen. When you have children and someone harasses them on account for just being who they are, you let me know how that makes you feel. The image of terrorists, yes ofcourse there is that image, but I personally do not know of any terrorists whereas it used to be assumed that any Muslim walking down the street was a terrorist. All I was suggesting was that, guess what that stereotype has evaporated and hell, it`s a good thing that it has cuz im tired of telling people that yes indeed, I am carrying a bomb underneath my scarf. I suggest you read the content of me piece more carefully because the idea of stereotypes existing is very real and still there I never denied that. The pledge of alligence..i pledge alligence to no one but my god and this counrty of which I am a citizen gives me the choice for not pledging my allegence to it. Thank you amreeka! Adapting to local culture..what is the culture like in your area…every part of america has a different culture. This country of freedom, education and high standards also gives me the chance to be all that I can be ,and all that I can be is me. Why should I adapt? Don`t you think amreeka can handle people like me? isnt it called the melting pot? Incidentally, if I had to choose a local culture in america to live in, I think it would either be the big apple ( nyc) or new orleans..two different yet landmark american cultures. Just for clarification purposes faraz, I am not oppressed and never said I was. Read the piece again, multiple readings can give you a different perspective each time. You also said: ``And I have no desire to raise a family in the culturally schizophrenic manner in which most desi families do.``

I think I owe my parents big time for introducing me to a different perspective on life.

Re: Rishi you said : `` Then i realized that the truth is your choice is as individual as you are and as long as you can defend it to yourself then you must be okay. And expecting to convince everyone would be too much.`` Thank you so much. It does all come down to ME being comfortable with it. I mean how does one explain the myriad of reasons and feelings why we do the things we do? Its impossible and any explanation comes out half baked and its only frustrating. It does come down how I can explain things to myself and how I feel about that. Your anology of the dirty jeans was perfect. There are some things that we do to please our parents, that is so very true, and I will admit that that definitely plays a part in my wearing hijab. South asian parents have a strange hold on their children, and at times its almost tangible. But again, as you so wonderfully put it, I would not expect my parents to stand in my way if I chose to marry someone outside of my culture and/or religion. They wouldn`t give me the green light on that one but its something I would feel very strongly about and would have to counter whatever arguments they presented. Its all about how much priority you give that issue in your life and how much you want to fight for it. Thanks.

z.rizvi

re maliani
``religion is a subset of culture``

this is a rather narrow and linear view of culture, religion and identity. where does religion end and culture begin? can you truly cut up and break down your own person, your thoughts, your material environment into its `cultural` and `religious` pieces? EVEN if one takes the rather limited set theory definition of religion and culture, how does it delegitimise zehra`s self-identification as a cultural and religious muslim?

re: maliani
I see what you are saying regarding religion and culture. You separate the RITUAL from the SPIRITUAL. Like popular schools of Sufi thought that flourished in India, Bhakti movement and even modern day secularism.
However, to some Muslims the ritual, spiritual, culture, politics, clothing, eating, everything comes from Islam. While looking at non Arab countries one can easily point out cultural things that come from Islam (hence Arabic) and culture that comes from their pre-Islamic past (which the orthodox may consider pagan).
I think thats where the religion vs culture mixup occurs.

re:Zehra

In one instance you say ``how does one differentiate between your religion, your identity and your culture?`` and you go on to say that ``Islam specifically derives its culture from religion``. hence Muslims also do. Fair enough.

But then elsewhere you say, ``We (Muslims) are not so foreign anymore and are making forays into mainstream culture all the time (the runways, Madonna, Talvin Singh, Cornershop, its all there). I am not exactly sure what you mean. TS and Cornershop have nothing to do with Islam or Arabia. runway ???? Yasmin Ghauri (half German/half Pak) maybe.... Madonna chants in Sankrit and wears Mehandi ????
I think this is the dichotomy Maliani is referring to when he brings up differences in culture and religion in reference to non-Arab Muslims.

regards

Re: maliani post # 34

In response to your comment not to base race relations on personal experiences. Pray, please enlighten me just how we should base our race relations? Should we base them on texts books writen by an acdemic committee on Social Harmony?

We are all creatures of our environment and our own experiences in that environment shapes our realities. It seems that our experineces were different in this regard. As to being stabbed and being beaten being considered inhumane, inhumanity had nothing to do with it. I just didn`t put up a better fight that is all and I lost! I have only myself to blame!

Re: Aliya post # 29

In hindsight, I am sorry for subjecting you to my diatribe. It was uncalled for and I sincerely and humbly apoligise for my actions. You did not deserve such a response to your questions. My most sincere apology to you dear lady and in the future, I will promise to behave myself!!

As to your comment about my labeling different groups under one identity, the reason for that is they are all losers. North American indians, Spanish speaking population of pre-Texas, California, French speaking peoples in Canada, Americans or where ever such groups exist are losers because they lost their fights. Why don`t they expect the fact that they lost and themselves are to blame for their lot in life and just shut the hell up!!!

Aliya bibi, it rankles the hell out of me when these groups play the victim and ask people to feel sorry for them for being losers. It is the same with the American revisionism of Vietnam in movies and all the Rambo movies which try to show that America did not get its ass handed to it in Vietnam. The simple matter of fact is that they lost. They lost. This is nothing more than Darwinism at play.

You asked should these groups lose their cultural identity, language and traditions, because they lost a battle? The answer is yes! Look what the Romans did to Carthage after winning the Punic Wars of Hannibal. The Romans killed all the males, sold all the women and children into slavery and sowed salt in the ground, where Carthage was, so that nothing would grow there. That is the way I like it! That is retribution and fire and brimestone the way I like it! That is how we should deal with people like Saddam Hussein and that Butcher of Belgrade. I am sick and tired of those appeasers in NATO who just promise idle threats and do not back them up.

I think that the basic United States Marine Corps` creed should be this country`s basic policy in dealing with everyone: lets kill him all now and let God sort them out later! Thin the herd, thin the herd I say!!!!!

Re: Zehra post # 26

Hiya bud! I would give peace a chance, but it died with John Lennon a long time ago. I am not preaching violence, but merely reacting to it. Though I promise you, I will be a better person when I have killed all these (expletive deleted in deference to Aliya) who are making a (expletive deleted) and the world is a better place, because these (expletive deleted) are no longer around to (expletive deleted) thing ups!

Is there an alternative to violence? If there is, I am not interested in it!

On a lighter note. Quebec City is a beautiful and a charming place. It is like a piece of old Paris which has been transported to this continent. In winter, Quebec City holds an annual Winter Carnavel where people sculpt amazing ice sculptures. In summer, it is just a sheer delight. There are so many drop dead beautiful women in Quebec City and they know how to dress to your imaginations!

I love Canadians!!! Canadian women are more liberal, in my opinion in their sexual mores than American. On the other hand of the spectrum, the hardest women to get into bed are the Germans. Trying to get them into bed is like convincing the Gesatpo that one is not Jewish! Damn near impossible!! Now the best, are the French Canadians women...oh yeah, baby!!!:)

Re: To all who wrote about the melting pot/vs mosaic

It`s been interesting to read everyone`s comments on the subject. Personally I think despite the U.S`s best efforts to make their society a melting pot it will inevitably end up a mosaic. Question remains to be seen how long it will remain a harmonious mosaic.

It doesn`t matter that 2nd/3rd generation desis will all speak English only and eat pizza and french fries more than daal and curry. This is due to several reasons:

a) First generation immigrants socialize almost exclusively with people of the same cultural background. Small cities, large cities, the pattern is the same. Now in larger cities, the children grow up having socialized mainly with children of family friends and relatives - who are all desi. And as such feel more comfortable socializing with ``2nd generation`` desis. This doesn`t mean they won`t have friends that are non-desi, many still do,and there are always exceptions to this rule however the bulk of their socialization are with desis, or at the very least same religon if they are muslim.

Also most cities have ethnic ghettos which facilitate the socialization ``with your own kind``. Case in point: In the province of British Columbia there is a significant Sikh/Punjabi population that came in the early 1900`s to help build the Canadian Rail system ,do logging and farming. Now their descendants are 3rd generation plus, and they are still very distinct in their cultural outlook from what would be considered ``mainstream`` (read white anglo-saxon) Canadian society. However they are becoming more politically active as one of the cabinet ministers in the BC provincial gov`t is Sikh.

b)While myself and another other desis/muslim who are born on North America have an emotional attachment to the land (due to it being where one was born), I can not relate to the historical ``nostalgia`` of the pioneers forging out a place for themselves in the ``New World``. It doesn`t matter how many times I made paper log cabins in school and studied about the pioneers, it means nothing to me, aside from it being an interesting historical note. My history in North America started only after my parents arrived here. And so I reject the idea of having to conform to the anglo-saxon (or french)culture to be ``Canadian``. Of course I`m different than a desi from Pakistan, many of my opinions interests and outlooks on life will be different of someone directly from Pak. However, the effect of my parent`s values, opinions,outlook and interests shapes my personality as well and as such my definition of what it is to be Canadian will be very different than a descendant of a pioneer.

And that is where the melting pot idea fails.

Re: Amin Saleh

I actually have a pamphlet entitled:

25 Most Frequently Asked Questions About Islam by Shahid Athar. It`s published by Abdul Jalil

P.o box 962, Elberton, GA 30635

phone 706-283-7510.

It was reprinted by the Dawa Information Group

8424 Naab Road, Suite 1C, Indianapolis, IN 46260.

Give the above number a call or write them, and

I`m sure they can mail you a free copy.

Regards,

Fozia

Mubashir:

I resent your characterization of me as an x-muslim, were you to say that to my face in a public street, i assure u, you would be left spitting out a mouthful of teeth, wondering how you came to find yourself lying flat on your back in the dirt. I however am big enough not to feel the need to question your profession of faith, since i know that only G-D can judge what is in men`s/women`s hearts, not I, for i am not infallible.

Zehra : I Read your ALL your comments from the Shandana Minhas article. Okay, so you`re a real living, sensitive, breathing human being with real feelings, character and a mind of your own, under that black potato sack. There i said it!

I respect your rght to be American and be whatever you want to be completely since i deeply cherish the value of free speech and freedom of personhood.

Frankly if you are saying that you don`t don a hijab for religious reasons, well then I don`t care whether you wear jeans, Shalwar Kameez,a skirt, fishnet stockings or a bikini in public.

My point about hijab is that almost all women who wear it have the desire to do so inculcated into them, no one wakes up one fine morning and says, `let me hide my face from the world.` Lets not kid ourselves, you wear it not because hijab is in fashion or for any other frivilous reason, but because you believe its religiously required.

And that is precisely where i disagree with u, and will till my last breath.

As for my comment about my hypothetical sister, i didn`t mean to imply that i`d use anything beyond reasonable persuasion with her, it would shock me though since no one i know in my family wears it. There is no compulsion to, no one encourages it. Fact is, without a Hijab nurturing enviornment no woman will wear it. If i did anything beyond talk till i was blue in the face, yes, i`d be no better than those i despise).

I have developed a distaste for Hijab after thinking deeply and carefully about the insidious institution of patriarchy.

The women patriarchy produces only invite my pity, and perhaps contempt (though its not their fault) because they can never aspire to equality, or anything beyond servility in general. I respect those who stand up for themselves and no others. It doesn`t matter if they disagree with me, the point is to be able to think independantly for oneself. You really think Afghan women or Baluch women have that choice? Gimme a break. Their seclusion from society is enforced by their menfolk. You may be the exception to the rule, you may believe you are, but lets cut the b.s, we both know that at some point in your life the burqa/veil/hijab was presented as a pure ideal, and you accepted that at face value. Lets not deny that. My point is only that we should scratch between the hijab to determine who put the seed into your head and we will arrive at the truth. You yourself said you don`t understand why you wear it. Well, i am giving you the answer. But, doubtless your experiences in the world have created a shell around you that prevents words like these from penetrating and having any effect or inspiring self-questioning. As for sexless objects, can you really deny that its precisely what it looks like men have reduced women to? Because the men we are dealing with are secretly afraid of women?s sexuality/sensuality?

Check out, The Lack of Women`s Rights in Pakistan by Omar Mirza (moi) & Replies by me, and you will understand why i speak with such passion about this subject.

Rishi: re: ``few hispanics want to learn english`` -this is not really true, by and large most overwhleming majority want to learn English. The issue is a bigoted treatment towards Spanish. Latinos, 2nd generation etc. are very much bi-lingual. While for now English has a hold, iin the future Spanish will be the key to good positions, and networking. Even if English is the language of trade, Spanish is the language that will get you in through the ``informal`` door... this is a demographic reality. I honestly do not think that Muslims even register as a blip on the radar screen for now, they`re mostly concentrated in low level white collor jobs , rarely with any position of power or authority, and with little political muscle to show `cause of infighting, and disorganization.

Freozk: re: compromise: yes groups generally do need to compromise... but only when they need to do so. Right now Latinos have no need to compromise, speaking for Los Angeles, for example... the old Black political structrue is whitering away, and being rapidly replaced by Latino politics, that includes demmands that schools, and social services train and recruite people familiar with their language and culture. -I work as a social worker, in Compton, CA, a once Black city, now 60% Latino.. but the social services have not changed and continue to be focused only on Blacks. This will have to change very soon. (I by the way speak fluent Spanish, and lived in Mexico, and on the Texas/Mexico border for a few years -hence my sympathies:)) . Right now, in California, if you go for a job that involves any public contact, and you speak Spanish, chances are you`ll be placed fare ahead of other applicants). -Anyways this is a little digression from the topic) -But the next generation of desis may not be talking about

Pepsi, and McDonalds -they may be talking about burritos, enchiladas, horchata, and tortas, and tamarindos... -Altaf

omar1974 = God? are you telling me WHY i do certain things? you stand agaisnt patriarchy of any kind and here i feel that you are trying to run my life for me. don`t presume to tell me why i do certain things that i do. you, of all people will never know why i do anything, so please stop inferring from reading ONE piece by me why i do anything i do. this comming from someone who ``deeply cherishes the value of free speech and freedom of personhood``. let me be my own person and don`t answer any of my questions for me. bringing up afghan or balouchi women was totally a low blow since we are all more than aware that it is NOT a choice for them. tell me when have ``I`` preached to others to wear hijab and brainwashed them in any instance? your narrow-mindedness on this topic is...somehow not surprising. you say : ``but lets cut the b.s, we both know that at some point in your life the burqa/veil/hijab was presented as a pure ideal, and you accepted that at face value.`` i cannot Believe the gal it must have taken to write down such a patronzing and utterly ludicrous statement. your response just totally disturbed me...and to drive that point home, do NOT assume anything about me OR other women who wear hijab. you do NOT know the reasonsing behind it. in your god like stance you guessed the wrong color of my hijab..its white. i really want to succumb to a childish instinct and say nya nya na boo boo.

re: rana you said...

In one instance you say ``how does one differentiate between your religion, your identity and your culture?`` and you go on to say that ``Islam specifically derives its culture from religion``. hence Muslims also do.``

my lack of puncuation really is awful i know, what i said, and should have puncuated corretly was that ``that is my identity and I use both culture and religion to identity myself with. Also, many religions around the world, and we can talk specifically about Islam, (the missing comma there) derive their culture from their religion...``

what i meant by that statement, to just clarify was that there is no way one can hold culture identiy and religion as separate. there are so many things in my culture and in the arab culture that are direct resonants of religion, Islam. i am not saying that it is exclusivly Islam that is creating this culture but it does play a big role in forming culture. you also wrote :``TS and Cornershop have nothing to do with Islam or Arabia. runway ???? Yasmin Ghauri (half German/half Pak) maybe.... Madonna chants in Sankrit and wears Mehandi ????`` i should have again clarified. you took the ``we`` in that sentence to mean Muslim and i was referring to South Asians. i should have been more careful in presenting that bit but since being an american muslim of south asian decsent, things liek that do escape me. i meant that south asian culture is coming into the mainstream and that is why we are not so foreign anymore. on the runaway, i maent in terms of fashion. if you follow vogue etc, you will notice a definite trend in that direction. Ts and cornershop are also comming into the limelight or have been..i should have mentioned authors like arundathi roy and hanif kureshi. i hope that clarifys my position on that. for malianai edification i wil ljust cut and past bg`s response since its one that i would echo..

``

Feb-10-99 16:1:27 EST Reply #: 36

bg

re maliani

``religion is a subset of culture``

this is a rather narrow and linear view of culture, religion and identity. where does religion end and culture begin? can you truly cut up and break down your own person, your thoughts, your material environment into its `cultural` and `religious` pieces? EVEN if one takes the rather limited set theory definition of religion and culture, how does it delegitimise zehra`s self-identification as a cultural and religious muslim?

z.rizvi

Volumes can and will be written on this subject.
And somehow we need to continue to reach the American mass media on a regular basis.

The question is HOW?

The Muslim minority in the United States is
small yet generally quite successful. It needs
to find a balance between assimilation and
the negation of its environment.

Either way it is now a part of Americana. It certainly needs to work as hard as possible in building a more positive image in this society
in spite of the resistance faced. Getting into
the political mainstream (Democratic Party
or the Republicans) here is now a must.

Muslims need to advance further economically
and become EMPLOYERS instead of model employees.
Economic clout is almost divine in most parts
of the world today in which the West is no exception. We also need to COMMUNICATE with
our environment and attempt to dampen the ignorance and hate. Silent acceptance is no help.

Ras

Zehra:
Religious identity seems so different for people who grow up in the US, and for those who grow up back home. In my experience I see Americans embrace religion with a renewed sense of energy - maybe a reaction to the racism against and marginalization of Muslims in the US. Some non Americans, on the other hand, feel so detached from and weighed down by religion. Being bombarded in the 80s by Zia induced television that screamed religious propaganda, and presented one bearded man after another, and ended the day`s tv entertainment with Farman-i-elahi and the national anthem, one feels strangely about religion. Religion and Nationalism, all in one cup of bed time medicine. Seeing women tv actors cover their heads even while they slept in bed. Zia handing chaddors to dignatory wives, symbolizing, ``well this is how we want are women to be --wrapped up in chaddors..`` Seeing society become more and more hyprocritical in terms of religion. Telling you, I think it has an effect on you.

Ont thing, religion starts to scare you.

Religion scares me. I associate it with the world`s most perverse joke on humankind.

Zehra said:

There are some things that we do to please our parents, that is so very true, and I will admit that that definitely plays a part in my wearing hijab. South asian parents have a strange hold on their children, and at times its almost tangible. But again, as you so wonderfully put it, I would not expect my parents to stand in my way if I chose to marry someone outside of my culture and/or religion. They wouldn`t give me the green light on that one but its something I would feel very strongly about and would have to counter whatever arguments they presented. Its all about how much priority you give that issue in your life and how much you want to fight for it. Thanks.

z.rizvi

Listen Zehra, the last thing I meant to do was hurt your feelings, but in this post you yourself virtually admit my point about the PURE IDEAL that patriarchy presented to u (and I had not read this post when I sent my previous reply). So why quibble? As for my being G-D, well i`m most certainly not informed about other aspects of life, i can only make an educated guess at best regarding motivation, but i`m probably (rolling the dice) pretty darn close (if not rolling snake eyes every time), and perhaps that is making you too defensive.

I don`t think i implied that you encouraged anyone to don the hijab against their will, if you felt i did, i apologize, but facts are facts. That is precisely what most hijabans are forced to do. Sorry, but this is planet Earth, 1999, yet most Muslim women are living like it is still the middle ages thanks to muslim men who have made the value of wearing restrictive clothing into a positive social good. YES, its not about you only, my dear selfish one(grin), it IS POLITICAL.

The strange hold that S.Asian parents have (your self-confession) over their kids is possible only thru the institution of patriarchy.

And if you choose to marry someone outside your culture/religion be sure to write an article for all of us on your parents reaction/your (quite likely) ostracization from the extended family structure, the catharsis you went went thru, the final choice you made --- to desert your True Love Vs. Your Family. The Agony of that choice. The reality of today, as you write that piece. And conclude with your hope for a reconcilliation or better yet, leave it open ended with a sort of Che Serra Serra, whatever will be will be, the futures not ours to see Chae Serra Serra, i will always love my parents deep in the recesses of my heart/ or (depending on the outcome) my lost love. And finally,either the husband out of an arranged marriage comes home as the climax and you welcome him with din-din, or we realize that what your choice has cost you, you are 40, an aging old maid, still sitting at the home of your parents, never found love in life after you made another self-sacrifice. I?ll be more than happy to read the piece when u write it, if you care to share ofcourse.

PLEASE dont be mad at my little attempt at predective writing. I truly dont mean to make you mad. Just want to force you to think critically. I am not G-D! My opinions are not written on stone tablets. Still, I know something about how this world works, while i humbly acknowledge the possibility (say 15%) that I could be completely off base, 85% chances are that I struck a chord somewhere. Okay, so its a White head sack (the possibilty had crossed my mind) like a 5 kg bag of basmati rice or sugar. Yeah, i was wrong ....

I know life must be tough, and i seriously am the last guy who wants to make it tougher for you, honestly. In all liklihood im more likely to be one of the guys on your side than not, in terms of admiration for your donning the ghilaf (pillow case)in N.America, just because its gotta make everyday life more difficult. But i am a deep skeptic at heart regarding whether it can ever really be a product of free choice. Still i respect your courage, if not your, uh, (choice?).

sincerely,

Omar

If anyone knows the name of the article on Chowk on the Shariat Bill Zehra referred to earlier I`d be most obliged. I don`t believe that Bina Shah was the author.

sincerely,

OMAR1974