Growing up an American Muslim

Re: OMAR1974

Hey, why are you wasting your time on Chowk, you should be back in Jhang leading Anjuman-e-Sipah-Sahaba (ASS)

FYI
Did anybody see the NIghtline show on TV (I don`t know what channel somewhere between 1 and 12) last night.
THere was a special on Pakistan. It dealt with a lot of Women issues. Very informative. The second part is on tonight (tuesday ie). Check it out.

I guess, with all this talk about hijab, women, islam and American Muslims, this show maybe of interest to a lot of you.

regards

Re: Omar1974

All the power to you! Equality Rocks!

This is way, way off topic, but I do not like Rose. I have been experimenting with wines lately, and I tend to graviate towards European wines, most French, some Italian and a few South African vintages. South African wines are approximately where the Californian wines were ten years ago. German wines are good, but they lack the full bodied taste of Bordeaux region wines. Portugese wines are excellent and I really like them, though my favorite would be Port from the Porto region of Portugal - it is a deseret wine.

Also, lately California has seen too many wet summers and that that has shortened the growing season for many of its vinyards. The grapes need a long dry growing season to mature to a full ripness. If you get a chance, try differnt types of regions, grapes etc. If you like chardannoys, you will like wines made from the pinot blanc grape.

I agree: lets not put conspiracy spin on everything!


Re:Zehra and Omar on historical speculation

As to my two-cents on Charles Martel and the battle of Tours, it is hard to say. Historic speculation is always fraught with misgivings. I am merely going to talk about it in the context of the time and then maybe, draw a few conlusions.

At the time of the battle, Europe was in the middle of the Dark Ages, and Islam, was experiencing a sudden surge of growth; both militarily and in the academic sense. Remember, this was almost a hundred years after the Prophet (PBUH)`s death and in the next hundred or so years, Islamic advances in learning and science would eclipse pre-renassiance Europe. During this time, Europe was still struggling within the frame work of the Holy Roman Empire created to replace the legacy of Imperial Rome and Pax Romana.

Unlike Islam, whose unifying theme was religion, Europe was divided on the issues of religion as the Pope, representing Christiandom, fought European princes to transform his spiritual mandate into an earthly authority. There was no separation of chruch and politics at that time. It would take Christanity, nearly four hundred years till 1100 A.D. (Anno Domeni), to organize religiously and they would do so in the guise of the crusades.

At the time of Tours, it important to remember that Charles Martel was not resisting Islamic Moorish inroads for the sake of Christiandom, but to protect his own sphere of interest; his own princely authority. That was the context of the battle and why it was fought.

Had the Muslims won, then still again, based on the Moorish experince in Spain, it is possible to draw a few conclusions.

One; Islam would have offered, given its own renassiance, a place for the European intelligentisa, notably the Jews to migrate towards it. Jews would be more partial to drift towards Islamic Moorish enclaves, because unlike the Christians, who were still buring them for killing Christ, they could find relative safety within Muslim lands. Yes, they would have to pay a tolerance tax, but that would be still preferable to a brutal death. Remember, that in 1498, while Columbus was sailing west, a ship filled with Jews was sailing east to take sanctuary in the Ottoman Empire from the insanity of the Spainish Inquestion.

Two; with this happening, since the Jews were traditional sources of moneylending in Europe, the finance epicenter in Europe would tend to be based within a Muslim Moorish political framework. This would have created fizzures in the context of a Christian Europe, because most princes, distrustful of the Popes` meddling in politics, would have aligned themselves with Muslim Moorish interests. One; to seek a political patronage and two, to have access to money with which to resist the Vatican`s power plays.

Third; this would have created, in fact, two Europes. One under the Muslim influence and other still under the Church`s. Also, and this is the critical distinction, the Europe under the Muslim influence would have advanced in terms of science, knowledge and other academia, because unlike the Christian Europe, the Islamic Europe would have benefited from the Muslim renassiance then in the early stages of its eventual development. Also, given the Muslim tenet of tolerating the people of the book coupled with a sense of political and financial security, it would have created quite strong, magnetic, forces which would influence and sway the perpherial European states, to align with Muslim Europe and thus, benefit from its political, economical and academic openess.

Given these three conditions, it is reasonable, if not certain, to suggest that Islamic idenity would have metamorphed and mutated in reaction to and with the European influences surrounding it. The idea of European Islam from the Arabic Islam, as practiced in the Arabian peninsula, might be different and the European Islam might have been more tolerant than its Arabian counter-part. The logic behind this statement is derived simply from the expedient that unlike the Arabian version, the European Islam would have been exposed to a greater varity of cross cultural-political thoughts.

If we take the concept of contempory melting pot or even a mosaic, and apply it to an European based Islamic experiment, it not too difficult to see a similar response. There would be a diffusion of cultural traits and the sense of an idenity, would not be based on a national, religious or political creed, but would seem to based on the that power political-financial security came from a confluence of different sources and hence, there should be no distinctions on what consitutes the emergent influences.

This is what the historic record would suggest, based on emperical historic evidence. As to the colonization of North America by Muslim explorers, it is possible, but then again, we have to look at the historic record, of Muslim conquests eleswhere and draw the proper insights. Would it be a tolerant colonization. No, colonization has never been tolerant. What would determine such a an outcome, would be reaction of the established culture, in this case the native Americans, to the Muslim colonizations and how successfully they could resist it or were assmilated it into the mainsteam culture.

As to the future, that is highly speculative, because the historic timeline would have changed dramtically. Hence, I am a little leary to speculate beyond this point due to a lack of emperical evidence.

Hope this exteremely long, tedious, trugid and boring analysis helps.

Maliani : Grow Up kid! Sipah-e-Sahaba are about on the furtherest end of the political spectrum from me that you can possibly get. Just because i happen to know a thing or two about Islamic history does not make me a bearded fanatic. As i already stated the only thing i was concerned about was that what Zehra said was not causally related to her argument stating that Islam was spread by the sword.

omar: as i had thought..your inquiries once handed over to ferozk saab fared much better. i am no historical guru as, that much should be obvious...i like to live in my own little utopia where i am not judged by the color of my hijab but the material it is made of. i should translate what i meant by that statement since it is metaphorical ( for those of you less dense then our resident chowk `voice of reason`, you may skip this part). ever saince you found out i wear hijab you have formed your own opinion of me without really knowing who i am. this is somethng i have come to expect from people i meet on the streets but not sumthing i expected from people i bump into in the gallis of chowk. this was my disenchanment with chowk for a while the first time i had to defend myself from the onslaught of those trying to save me from my hiajb wearing self. i tend to get defensive and who can really blame me? just wanted to put that out there and put an end to any ideas you may have of reforming me..if i must be `reformed` trust me, you are not going to be the one doing it :)

re: all

this tangent from the current topic is, i suppose egotistal on my part, but i feel a lot of the discussion is an offshoot of the hijab one. when i wrote this essay, it was a great experiance for a couple of reasons. one being the fact that i love when i am able to write with ease and fluidity and the way words just find their places by themselves and jel together. this piece jelled well for me in that it was experssing alot of what i was feeling and had felt. i went backwards trying to remeber what it used to feel like to be called a towel head and how i used to try to convince myself that i was the stronger person and it would get easier. i did not want to turn this into a hijab and my struggle with hijab becuase that was the last thing on my mind..hijab just is..a friend of mine didn`t like the way her bisexuality was the one thing that people focused on..she would say, im female first, philosphy major and yeah im bisexual too, it just was..i feel the same way about hijab..ofcourse it isn`t as easy to take the hijab out of focus as she was able to take her bi sexuality out of focus and that was sumthing i came to terms with. the essay is about a young woman comming to terms with who she is. try also to remember the audience i was writing to..in order to win the moola i had to cater to the AMC needs of being proud of my heritage ( which i am) and showing it off in a real positive light ( which im mixed about..i had thgouht about bringing up the real dark issues that young women have to face being muslims and how many problems i have with some `hard islamic facts` but i was writing for a specific audience here). anyhow, i hope this somewhat clears up the reason behind the writing ( i think faraz in some reply of his was wondering why i had written this and why it has been published on chowk). im thrilled beyond belief that so many issues have sprung up from the essay..i wasn`t expecting them to which is a bit naive on my part since it is an essay dealing with identity and culture...something most chowkwalay have to deal with. i am curious to ask for other readers with young children to share how they feel their children will grow up..not only in the states but also in pakistan..we had one response from gk and it was a repeat of what my parents had felt which is why i lived in pakistan for 7 years..anita or sr, annogul ( only chowkwalay i know with kids), would you guys care to share?

rizvi

Z: I thought we were past the hijab issue quite a while back, and had moved onto the question of whether Islam was spread by the sword or not, but apparently, you`re still not over it!

Re: Aamina and anyone interested in the ABC show

The ABC show last night was almost painful to watch. Interestingly enough the program (the 2nd part) started off with a specific disclaimer about how this was not a commentary on Islam; the host explained how ABC had received a lot of mail, calls, etc from ``concerned Muslims``. I am sure hundreds of people were ready to talk to ABC, with various quotes from the Quran and Hadis, etc. I am sure e-mails were sent, and announcements made at mosques about this ``attack`` against Islam.

What I find extremeley disturbing, however, is my gut feeling that in all likelihood none of the people that called in to complain to ABC, are probably doing (or plan to do) a damn thing to stop this honor killing nonsense. Islam has been around for 1400 years, withstood far worse attacks, it does not need your help to survive...but these women are being burnt alive, they could use some help.

Now I know that watching the documentary was nothing like what I am used to seeing in Lahore or what most chowkwallahs are used to at home, but the sad fact of the matter is that most of our women are still stuck in shuttlecock-burqas, enslaved to their men and if we have to make a crude generalization about our country it is that we are a nation of jahils.

Both Riffat Hasan and Asma Jahangir made interesting points. I though Dr. Hasan was very much on point when she talked about the Western Media not being interested in the self-actualization process most Muslim women are going through. Ofcourse both women were very correct in stressing, that the more pressing problem is these women`s situations and not the western media`s misconceptions of Islam.

The only thing that the show did not stress enough, and what the host kept asking was ``what goes through the head of someone who kills their wife or daughter or sister?`` The answer ofcourse is not much. These people are usually illiterate. And at its most basic level I think these attitudes are caused by a lack of basic education.

Faraz

ps. I don`t care if certain Muslim women in western society wear the Hijab. Its your right even if I do think it looks ridiculous.. But I do think it is a little bit hypocritical and insensitive to wax philisophic on its ``liberating effects`` when that, along with purdah, is one of the most effective tools that these Jaahils use to control their women.

Zehra:

Pls. have some mercy and break your sentences! You do express yourself well--- just think of others who have to read the interacts. A page long paragraph is often hard to take. No offence intended.

regards

re: faraz you are right, islam doesnt need any protection from the attacks most people imagine it going thru..the people who need help desparetly are the women that are being brutally murdered by their own family for wanting to just be themselves. the first i had heard of the honor killings was 4 years ago...that man had been jailed becuase it was in the states. some palestinian dude. i remember watching part 1 of the honor killings ( this is the one with diane sawyer correct? all of a sudden its the hot topic and a lot of media attention is being given to it). one thing we fail to understand is that it is part of the Arab culture which does happen to be predominately muslim. honor killings are quite popular in israel too. this did come as a surprise to me. did the program come up with any resolutions on how to deter the honor crimes or was it just a commentary and a want for a basic understanding on why this is happening? they do have hotlines (in the translation many thought it was a sex line) and laws against such aurtocity in the arab world but since it is acceptable i n their society, those who are working agaisnt it are in the minority. a petition seems like a good first step but what more can be done..i feel useless just sitting and watching and tsking away..is there anything proactive that can be done??

rizvi

Re: Aamina Ahmed
Yes the ABC show about ``honor killings`` did well to interview Asma Jehangir. I loved the way she cut short the American host`s holier than thou attitude. It was sad to see men casually describe their sister/daughter`s murder as justifiable.

Good essay FZR. I`ll talk about one issue here that has my attention at the moment and that is the effectiveness with which both the foreign policy involving a community`s concerns and domestic image of that community can be shaped. And I want to mention the Jewish community in the US. In the last few decades, AIPAC and the Jewish lobbies have organized themselves into an effective force. They are not only involved in the shaping of US policies in the Middle East, but the way they have set their objectives, they`ve been crucial in garnering sympathies for the state of Israel and Jews in general in the American public. Mind you, this is the same public that barely tolerated them only a few decades ago.

Their greatest assets have been an educated and politically active, not to mention wealthy, community with plenty of political scientists actively seeking high places in the decision making apparatus in Washington. There`s a lot that can be learned from them. For example, they only spent $3.6 million in the `92 elections on congressional candidates and not only do they have 23 Jewish representative in the house, but they have support of the entire Congress.

They`ve demonstrated that anyone who goes against their agenda can say good bye to public office. Rep. Percy from Illinois learned that the hard way in `84 when he opposed AIPAC on an issue, and was defeated by Paul Simon, an AIPAC candidate. Pres. Bush too learned why a president should never put any conditions in providing loan guarantees, nay anything, to Israel. Granted, the Jews do have an advantage over other communities as they`ve been here the longest and have considerable influence in the financial and media sectors. But as far as the elections go, what we can learn from them is how to pick the right candidates to support; which candidates should be opposed and how to efficiently make the campaign contributions work for your cause.

With Muslims closing ranks with them in sheer numbers, it`s time we try to assert our influence on issues that directly or indirectly concern us. And the only way to do it is keeping our differences within the community and presenting a single and united front to promote our causes. If one community can do it, there`s no reason why another cannot do the same.

...Rehan

Re: Zehra

I`m not entirely sure about the Arab culture bit. I`m sure it happens there too, but in Pakistan we also have local cultural influences that propagate this sort of behavior. For example, the Pathan zan, zar and zameen code does not contain anything overtly oppressive but does contribute to men feeling a need to control their honor by controlling their women ( asignificant portion of the cases occur in NWFP). Then various hindu traditions remain in Pakistan, such as doweries, that lead to violence amongst women. So while women are repressed all over the Islamic world our fundos have also incorporated local traditions in to their fanaticism.

Regarding what can be done, you are right it very futile to tsk tsk away. For starters, I think it is imperative that both men and women start standing up for these victims instead of shunning them...and that the so-called ``state`` (as if we have one)start prosecuting these idiots. And here`s one that might actually bring us in to the 20th century; repeal the zina laws and hudood ordinance.(I promise it won`t lead to the degeneration of moral values)

However, as I mentioned in my last post the primary cause of almost all of Pakistan`s social ills is a lack of education (something I think the documentary failed to highlight). And that should be our goal as a nation, to ensure that our citizens can read and write. I think there are some philanthropic organizations devoted to this cause, notably The Citizen`s Foundation.

If you look at women`s development in Islamic society in terms of education, I think the clear leader is Iran (I am not sure about this). It would be interesting to see the degree of domestic violence in that society.

This is a tangent, but another root cause of our problems is the concept of Sharam (Something that Rushdie shows quite brillinalty in his novel ``Shame``.) Everything we do is centered around our need to avoid shame, and most causes of our shame are related to women. And what is it they say to little kids when they do something bad: ``sharam nahin aatee?`` If the primary problem of the U.S. is the lack of shame in this culture, then our problem is quite the opposite.

Yesterday in the documentary they showed a fundo rally held during the riots over that love marriage (I forget the couple`s names).The mullah in charge said to his very emotional male audience ``kya aap yeh bardash karain gay keh aap keee bhain ya bhetee key saath love ishtory (story) hoi?``

Nahin Qazi Sahib, Khudaa maree bhaetee ko kabhee sacha pyaar na naseeb karai.

Faraz

ps The 1st part I was referring to the part of the documentary that aired Monday night.

Re: Abc show, & Faraz`s comments

I really think Faraz in his post, especially the last paragraph has it right. The first thing that must be done to stop the honor killings is to impart education to these people. 2ndly, in order to break the hold of patriarchical society over these women, it is necessary to instill in them the notion of equality with men. This cannot be imparted if they are restricted at the will of their male relatives to the chardivari of the house thru the custom of purdah, or treated as a special class of chattal (for they are not treated like human beings) that must don the hijab, and this is force fed to them at an early age through the institutions of so called CULTURE, TRADITION & RELIGION. How can they (these abused women) be exprected to break free

from from the shackles that bind them, if their educated sisters themselves justify the institution of separate treatment for women,from men, by actually donning the hijab, and thus reinforcing patriarchical social roles/(gender based ofcourse), which hold the uneducated women back in the first place! Like I have said before its all a male trick to dupe women into being submissive and docile, in order to deprive them of their rights and to insure that AN ASSERTIVE WOMAN is an oxymoron in that society, i,e a contradiction in terms.

Re: Abc show, & Faraz`s comments

I really think Faraz in his post, especially the last paragraph has it right. The first thing that must be done to stop the honor killings is to impart education to these people. 2ndly, in order to break the hold of patriarchical society over these women, it is necessary to instill in them the notion of equality with men. This cannot be imparted if they are restricted at the will of their male relatives to the chardivari of the house thru the custom of purdah, or treated as a special class of chattal (for they are not treated like human beings) that must don the hijab, and this is force fed to them at an early age through the institutions of so called CULTURE, TRADITION & RELIGION. How can they (these abused women) be exprected to break free

from from the shackles that bind them, if their educated sisters themselves justify the institution of separate treatment for women,from men, by actually donning the hijab, and thus reinforcing patriarchical social roles/(gender based ofcourse), which hold the uneducated women back in the first place! Like I have said before its all a male trick to dupe women into being submissive and docile, in order to deprive them of their rights and to insure that AN ASSERTIVE WOMAN is an oxymoron in that society, i,e a contradiction in terms.

Re: RR post # 109

It was good to ``read`` you again!

You have brought a valid point. The Jewish experience in this country is a textbook example on how to organize political support and earn legitimacy within the establishment hierarchy.

As to the Pakistanis doing something similar, there is a past precedent. Senator Larry Pressler was defeated for re-election when the Pakistanis living in the States began to support the Democratic candidate running against him. It was the first time, that I could remember, when the Pakistani community used its political muscles and financial dollars to influence a decision.

Since then there has been no focus in the last elections, but the defeat of Sen. Pressler proves that Pakistanis, Indians can influence US politics through contributions supporting a specific candidate, influencing election results through voting, mobilizing grassroots efforts etc.

Good point Rehan. It can be done and it was done, but it needs to a sustained effort over the duration to have a marked effect and should not be just an ad hoc approach to the problem.

Thanks for tangent!

Re: Faraz

I agree with Zehra. Honour killings are common in the arab world. In fact an earlier show was about honor killings in the arab countries. In fact there is quite an activity among arab feminists to stop honour killings. The sad thing is that it happens in Palestine as well where women have struggled side by side with their men. I had read somewhere that Female PLO freedom fighters have been harrased as well.

Muslim customs and religion dictate that a woman must be a virgin before marriage. In fact if you look at Pakistani Nikah nama forms, one of the question is about bride`s virginity but there is no question about groom`s virginity.

I guess what i am trying to say is that we must have picked this up from the Arabs or invading Turks. Historically, Indus Valley civilization is alien to such violent culture. Our culture is full of love stories. We had strong Sufi traditions and love is the highest value to a sufi. If anyone of you has read Shah Latif then you would know that Women in Shah`s poetry are the central character, the heroines: and they are dynamic, uninhibited, independent minded, autonomous, dedicated, and persistent. Women in Shah do not respect social tradition, only their independent heart`s calling.

Here a couple of verses from Shah:

``adiyuun varu ughaarra, vihaanu jehen visaariyo
jeddiyuun! chhadde jaarra, sabhi nangiyuun thii nikro``

Trans:
``Sisters! success is theirs, who abondan vanity.
Become naked [1] and come out.``

[1] uninhibited

``sabhi nangiyuun thii nikro, laalacha chhadde lobha
supriyaan siin sobha, ninddruun kande na thiye``

Trans:
``By giving up avarice, greed and clothing [2]
set out for the desired goal.
Success with the beloved cannot be achieved merely by sleeping.``

[2] the veil, inhibitions