Growing up an American Muslim

It must be really difficult growing up in the US or for that matter in any European country while hanging on to a ``controversial`` Islamic heritage.

However, I am always amazed at the mentality behind the Muslims who were born here.

Their basis of relations with the newcomers somehow don`t appear to be different from the reactions that Reformed Jews had to the third wave of Jewish arrivals from the Eastern Europe in the 1880s, which were of shame and abhorance towards the new Jews. This is not a reaction to the article directly but it does shoot off of the article to some extent where I feel that the Muslims who grew up here have a really hard time comming to terms with the fact that the newcomers can be so ``stupid`` and ``unAmerican,`` and then turn around to blast the ``normal`` Americans for discrimination directed towards themselves. This discrimination, they claim, interestingly enough, also comes from them being ``not-so-American.``

Any thoughts, anyone?

Zehra,

This article has brought back some old memories for me. The most prominent one being of when I was 14 years old, and in my grade 9 Social Studies class.

We were studying modern Arab history as part of the Middle East chapter in our textbook. The basics of Islam were also covered in this section.

One day before the start of class, I was chatting with my teacher and let him know that I was in fact a Muslim. The teacher became really excited at this and asked if I`d be willing to answer a few questions about Islam in class.

I thought ``Sure why not? I can answer a couple of questions.`` and agreed to so. Little did I know what I was getting to...

The class starts, and my teacher announces ``Class, as you all know we are studying the Middle East section, and Islam is the major religon there. Fozia just told me that she is a Muslim. Now We all know very little about Islam, but what better way to learn than to ask someone who follows it?

So I`m opening up the class to let you all ask any questions you may have about Islam to Fozia.``

Well to make a long story short, I spent the entire 60 minute class fielding all questions that came to the minds of 30 kids and 2 teachers. Not only that, I spent a good portion of the next day`s class doing the same thing!

I answered questions on everything ranging from fundamental beliefs of Islam, to ``Do you really kill cows in that weird way?``, oh and ``Do you really starve for a like a whole Month?``. Adam/Eve, Jesus, Christmas and dozens of others items I can`t even remember were all brought up.

Let`s just say overwhelmed feelings of Interrogation would be one way of describing how I felt after all that was over!

I grew up in a very small town in Canada, which had only a few Muslim families and no mosque. So my knowledge was limited to what my mother had taught me and a few ``Children`s books on Islam`` and ``Stories of the Prophets`` I had read.

Needless to say all my meagre Islamic knowledge was being stretched to the max.

I wouldn`t say that it was a bad experience, ``challenging`` maybe, but not bad. If anything it made me realize what little I knew and compelled me to remedy this lack of knowledge from that time onwards.

Since then, there have been many occasions where I`ve been asked to speak on Islam. But now it`s pretty easy. Most people just ask the same questions again and again. :)

Fortunately I`ve never had to deal with people not liking me because I was Muslim. In my experience, I was viewed more like I was the follower of some far-off, exotic religon.

It is indeed a struggle to live as a second generation Muslim in North America. Peer pressures, cultural and religous conflicts are not easy to deal with. However I feel it`s struggle that gives life it`s meaning. As Muslims we believe that we have to ``earn`` our way to Paradise, and as such there isn`t a Muslim anywhere in this world who doesn`t have major challenges in their life to overcome.

Most of the Muslims in North America have the luxury of being much more financially well off than their brethern in other parts of the world. But in place of that we have to deal with a greater struggle from within ourselves and shaping our identities as Muslims in this society.

It`ll take many, many years before a true North American Muslim identity emerges. Most likely it won`t be until our children`s generation or even grandchildren.

It`s a great social engineering exercise that`s occuring here. Maybe someday in the future sociologists and anthropologists will be writing on the development of the North American Muslim personality.

On a side note, I wonder how future generations of Canadian Muslims will differ (if at all) from American Muslims. I know there is one major difference in the governments philosophies concerning immigrants. The U.S likes to think of itself as a ``melting pot`` where all cultures/religons mix together and the end result is ``American``. Now here in Canada, the philosophy is that of a ``mosaic`` where different cultures/religons are encouraged to maintain their unique characteristics yet at the same time join together to form a overall Canadian identity. It`ll be interesting to see if this has any effect on the future outcome...

Regards,

Fozia Zaidi

Zehra:

Welcome! Wish your first submission to Chowk had been an original one. Perhaps, next time.

Knee jerk reaction are not confined to these Excited States only. I remember the first few hours after the Oklahoma blast, the media was going haywire over middle eastern connections-- they even unearthed some conference in the deep south that was addressed by some Arab a few days earlier. In Pakistan, recently, the bomb blast near Lahore that failed to cure the excesses of Badmaash Shareef was immediately blamed on the MQM. Later, it transpierd it was the work of Green Shirts. In neigbouring India, even before the first investigator has stepped out of his house, the officials blame ISI. And life goes on..........

regards

Re: Zehra

You are scaring me! My suggestion is stick with polisci and then some day, we will rule the world (insert sounds of hollow laughter here)!

Re: Fozia post # 3

You from Canada eh? Nice knowing that, eh! Not only do I have to deal with that Canuck called Temporal, but now I got to put up with you too, eh? Maybe, the three of us can sing ``O` Canada``, eh?

As for myself, having lived in the Great White North, I am more partial towards the American idea of fondue than a Canadian mosaic. All through high school, in Ottawa, we learned about the Canadian mosaic. The reason that I like the American melting pot is because it blurs all nationalistic cultural identies. The former Jugoslavia is turning into a real mosaic too and the problem with any mosaic is that, after a while, the damn thing crumbles and makes a mess every where.

My biggest problem with the Canadian mosaic is that, in order to preserve distinct cultural traits, it creates a simmering problem. Just look at the Quebecois in Quebec and their zeal for language rights and independence referandums. Even though English is an offical language of Canada, along side with French, they still pass laws that restrict English from appearing and any shop in Quebec with english signs is hounded by the language police. This Canadian mosaic is creating internal problems in Canada, because under this idea, Quebec has been given too much rights and that is alienating the western provinces in the Canadian confederation.

It is about time some one put those damn Quebecois frogs in their places and remind them that Marquis de Montcalm lost the Battle of Abrahams and Montreal and Quebec to the English. What is the flag of Quebec? It is the fleur de lily; the symbol of the Bourbon monarchy of France! The morons in Quebec are still thristing for revanche against le anglis and their offical state motto is j` souviens - I remember. They still remember their defeat at the hands of Wolffe in 1759! The British should have forced these damn frogs to learn english at gun point!

I like the bastardization of the American melting pot, because no cares or knows what is their past history.

Folks, you ain`t speaking inglish, you ain`t welcome in these parts! I got ma gun and I kill yawr ass `cause yaw don`t speak no American yaw damn fur-in-ners! Git yawr ass back `cause I ain`t learnin` oar speakin` no new damn tonque oar mending ma ways!

Umair and the Chowk Muscleman:

Please note this self-confessed 1/4th Parsi-Pakistani-Canadian-American is disturbing the hornet`s nest again. (underlined again). The storm that will brew heneceforth shall be the sole responsibilty of the aforementioned individual!

Feroze:

I could not quite put a finger on your derivative eloquence-----mis-spellings aside. Now I know.
It must have emanated from the fine schooling you received in the Great White Yonder.

Coupla years ago, visiting one of the Shifa Clinic doctor near Harvardistan I stopped for directions. Lo behold! They only spoke Spanish. This was in the North East. I am told there are scores of Spanish only locales in the south and the west. So much for the melting pot theory. More on this later when the single malt fades away.

Fozia:

Don`t be un-nerved with this sheep in wolf`s clothing. He is quite harmless during daylight hours.

Zehra:

Like I was saying......

regards

Feroze:

Please elaborate on this idea of yours about the mosaic and its crumblings.

Personally, I disagree with the melting pot idea simply because my friend, it ain`t workin` south of the border either. Since you are taking examples off of real life situations and history, why don`t you pull your examples closer to the contemporary situations and look at the contemporary examples of the ``melting pot.`` The melting hot fact is that it just does not work.

Melting pot? US? Where? English only? Sure, in schools maybe... aqui en Los Angeles hablamos espanol!

Re: all

Feroze makes a valid point when he talks about ``the melting pot``. (atleast in my opinion). However it must be noted that the melting pot theory worked well as long as the underlying structure depended on racial and religious similarities . Thus a German American or an Irish American or an English American can proudly proclaim their national origins but remain unswayed by the happenings in their countries of origin and could even go to war with their countries of origin. This happens primarily because of the melting pot concept. Religion aids this aspect too. It is interesting to note that the melting pot theory fails when applied to people of non WASP or non-WASC origins. Thus hispanics, Jews and Asians tend to move away from the melting pot. However, From what i have seen, second generation Jews, Chinese and other non-muslims (buddhists, Hindus, Shintos) assimilate to a greater extent into the melting pot than the muslims since their religious tenets are not strong enough to prevent such an inter-racial, inter-religious mixture. Interestingly though, black converts to islam also do not face such a cultural or other barrier with this melting pot issue. It is predominantly the Asian (East, South and West) muslims and hispanics who face this issue. And of these the hispanics are the ones who can really be blamed for their refusal to identify with the mainstream American context . Quite a few American friends of mine have grumbled about the Hispanics refusal to learn English. (one of them a second generation Italian American questioned the principle of the Hispanics in comparison with himself --- given the fact that he does not know an iota of his original mother tongue)

Any comments ?

Rishi

Re; Rishi:
``hispanics are the ones who can really be blamed for their refusal to identify with the mainstream American context``

If I was a Spanish speaking American who grew up in a ranch in Texas much like her ancestors( who lived on the land here before the English speaking man proclaimed it to be a part of his country), or in Peurto Rico for that matter,I would`ve found your comments pretty offensive.

Ferozk

Well if you are interested in knowing about who all participate on the web, let me introduce myself as being Canadian. Since others have already pointed out that there are areas where only Spanish is spoken. I would like to add there are shopping areas in North America where only chinese is spoken and all the signs are in chinese (and no there are no laws saying that the shop signs should be in chinese).

fozia

I hope that you are able to write an article or maybe establish a website for the most frequently asked questions about Islam in school. This would be a great help to students and parents alike (as parents would be able to advise their children what to answer).

P.S. Does anybody know why women are not allowed to go to the graveyard (Jordan context).

Well written, I know how hard it is to stay focused on your identity and how hard it can be to keep explaining and apologising to the rest of the western world for being a muslim...the religion of Saddam Hussain and most terrorist

factions..and at the same time being proud of who you are.

I have two growing children and I struggle hard to instill in them a love of their identity..without warping their minds into thinking that everyone else is ``bad and wrong``.

I don`t want them to think everything so called muslims do is right, yet I want them to believe Islam is right.I don`t want them to not fit in or

to have to live a dual lifestyle, one at home and one at school.... yet the balance seems to be just out of my reach....am I missing something?

temporal,

let me welcome you to chowk..i was published once before with an original piece which i guess the chowk staff forgot to add to my list of ``other articles by F. Zehra Rizvi`` its called ``the temptress at barnes and noble``.

re: all

i am strapped for time but love that the first time i lay eyes on my piece at chowk, we have ten replies already posted. i am really hoping for some constructive discussion on one of my favorite topics of discussions..the melting pot and our place in the stew. (the siberia north to the US not to be forgotten..my aunts tell of harrowing tales of discrimination in canada when they first got off the boat in the late 60`s and early 70`s).

re:ferozk

whats the use of polisci again? art history..now THAT opens up so much. not only does it speak of culture, but history and also politics..covering more ground that way..its not so much one dimensional. trouble is, there is too much i want to do and therefore keep wavering between everythign i set my eyes on...i need to close my eyes and just start getting things done.

rizvi.

gulf war was a turning point for many of us going through high schools and junior highs in amreeka-canada. it made something that might not have been a issue into something more just a issue. it is interesting to see so many different reactions to this piece some more engaging than others

but i think the writing here is refreshinly clear and honest. i don`t think the author makes any judgment calls or distinctions between fobs and abcd`s (re: first reply to this piece. by the way i am a fob so i have the license to use the term). but she is simply observing how she is percieved and categorized due to her subject position and how that differs from what how she percieves herself.

Re: Amin Saleh post # 10

Thanks! It was nice knowing you are a Canadian!

My reference to language rights was not intended to cover all of North America, but apply to Quebec only. I know there is Chinese spoken in Vancouver (I miss having tea at the Victoria hotel), but it is only in Quebec, where the French speaking population is determined to enforce French as the only lingua franca of the province. As to the language police, it is not the offical provincial police, but groups of Quebecois who have created a self styled watch dog lobby which tells the authorities about English signs. The Quebec parliament passed a bill, Bill 101, which makes it illegal to post signs in English.

Re: Zehra

What ever! Polisci is about exploiting and abusing the system; who wants to care about cultural non sense? Take my advice, go pre-law and then go to a law school and become a lawyer and screw every one, legally, in sight!!!:)

Re: Temporal post # 5

Oye yaar what are doing to me?!

I tell you buddy, race baiting is such a fun way to get a reaction out of people! No wonder why politicans love to play this issue. Rabble rousing, that is the way to go!! Since I am in self confessing mood, I admit, on the record, that I am an equal opportunity discriminator. I hate every one equally without passion or prejudice!!! So bring it on, I am ready to rumble!

Re: afrasiyab post # 6

Getting serious, the reason that I dislike the idea of mosaic is that it preserves the identity, past history and cultural affinities of a group. Under the assumption of a mosiac based society is the simmering feelings of a distinct group nationalism. This dynamic may be mooted, but it always exists and there is always a person willing to exploit it.

It is for this reason that I prefer the American melting pot. As Rishi said, the idea of the melting pot has evolved and is mostly non-applicable to the new immigrants, but still, that does not lessen the value of the idea. The melting pot erases all different nationalistic traits. In socities like the Canadian or the American, most immigrants come here to escape their old political and religious animosities.

A mosaic preserves those emotions, habits or traits, but a melting pot dilutes them over a period of time.

In other words, what is the point of moving your self across the ocean in search for a better life and still drag along the baggage of the old world with all its hate, rancour and bitterness with you? If you want to preserve the life that forced you to move, why move and why not stay where you are!

As to Aliya`s contention to Rishi about offending the sensibilities of the Spainish speaking population, all I can say is get used to it! It is the same with the native Americans who complain about the loss of their ancestral lands to the white men. My one and only answer for these people with hurt and wounded nostalgia for the past is, ``well, you should have fought harder, shouldn`t you?`` The language of this country is English - so either swim or sink, the choice is yours, but don`t blame the society for your short comings!

I am sick and tired of comforting these cry babies and giving them everything on a silver plater. There is racism every where and that is a fact of life. No one is going to love you because you are different and to demand so, is utterly sophmoric. Either you can stand up to racism or you can play the victim. Speaking for myself, the only way to deal with racists fucknuts is look them straight in the eye and promise and tell those sons of bitches to go to hell!!!!!!

Nice article Zahra! I especially liked the way you dealt with the issue of the pledge of allegience. I just stood quietly, not being an American citizen at the time i was in middle school, but i certainly remember that EVERYDAY nonsense. In retrospect, growing up in Karachi I remember have to sing ``PAK SAR ZAMEEN``, which also seems like nonsense now, considering we were then under the rule of the dictator Zia. You certainly didn`t make an unusual comment about the Oklahoma City bombing, i thought it was Muslims too, initially! But the press totally assumed it was middle east related like a knee jerk reaction.

Can we really blame them though? Afterall, all the stuff that makes the headline news that involves Muslims is pretty negative stuff in general. (Lets not get into the issue of who decides what qualifies as News per se) I definitely also can relate to your social studies grade 9 experience. Mine however was NOT a positive experience. Faced a similar situation in N.Y. But, the most embarrasing aspect of it was the lecture on Islam that a 70 yr old x-Punjab University Prof Dr.Moizuddin? [he taught at P.U for 30 yrs] (who happened to be a substitute teacher in the high school) gave to the class as he was invited as a guest speaker. Some of the issues he discussed, and the way he discussed them really made me sqirm in my seat and want to hide under the desk.

Issue #1 The importance Pakistani culture & Islam place on the Virginity of unmarried girls. Her, ``most precious jewel/ornament.``

Issue #2 Pork. Why don`t Muslims eat it ? Well, it ``encourages shamelessness.`` Why? Well thankfully he didn`t elaborate any further. His theory was apparently that it increased women`s sex drives. (It would have been better if he had just described the facts of early Islamic history that led to the banning of pork: namely, people had been dying after eating pork because the worms form cysts around them that could not be killed by fire & furthermore, that pigs eat their own excrement and therefore are FILTHY animals unfit for human consumption).

Being a VERY ANTI-HIJAB person myself, I can`t empathize with you on this issue. I would never permit this in my own family (when I have one, or if i had a sister, perhaps even if she wanted to), since I sincerely believe it is a symbol of the enforced stagnation in thinking prevelant in Islam. On the other hand, I will defend your right to wear it, though i disapprove of your choice personally. Operant Conditioning. The reason why women wear it, and feel self empowered. (Cause I know you`ll say this, its fashionable to say its a product of free choice)Its really just a male trick on women to make them wear it to begin with, a means of control, and to inclucate the value of modesty in women initially (remember how Violent Hazrat Omar (pbuh) could be towards his own sister & brother in law when he found they converted, imagine him and others who honestly, albeit mistakenly believed that G-D mandated Hijab, and you can see clearly how it all started), and then let mothers pass it on to daughters and make them proud of actually wearing it. Yes, when you`re under fire it begins to feel like its part of the seperate/different identity that`s under seige and so much a part of you but it really just goes back to the days your great great et al grandma was told by society she MUST wear it, and then just passed it/inclucated it in on to her daughter as a positive social value/good, and it just continued onwards. Do u really have a choice?

Nope, more like an APPARENT CHOICE. You have the freedom not to wear it if you choose and your family is willing to let u, BUT here`s the really deceptive part. Patriachical Muslim society in N.America knows full well that at the age of 18 you are an adult, and can leave home if you choose, (and wear whatever you want)[and unlike Pakistan, Parents cannot confine you against your will, use the police/state power of the courts aginst you, example. Humerira/Butt case, so they need for you to believe in your consent, kind of like the situation in Somalia where WOMEN circumcise other women and create the pressure to do so, but initially and even today female circumcision is a form of male control over women, to deprive them of the pleasure of sex and by eliminating sexual desire, reducing the chance of MEN being made cuckolds, with all the communal loss of face that entails] so it fosters the value of the WORTHIER choice, the self- sacrificing choice, it tells you when you are young and follow their wishes unquestioningly, kei, ``beeti, sahih rasta kabhi aasaan nahinh hota, ghalat rasta hameesha aasaan hota hai``. I.E The morally right path will not be easy, but the wrong path will always be easier to travel. When you`re young this impresses upon you the feeling of martyrdom, afterall, you need something to keep you going since you can`t have a normal N.American social life and you know this early on (that you are different, so in order to withstand the pressure from the outside world, you need to at least have the feeling of noble sacrifice within u, which is precisely what patriarchial society allows you to do and fosters). So from within you has to come the power, the feeling of one individual standing up against the crowd, which can only be justified if you feel that sometimes the crowd can be wrong and the individual right, in standing up with a different view/way of life. Ofcouse in a tolerant society like the U.S this is possible. In Pakistan, it just leads to massacres in mosques, and the abductions of baligh (legally adult) women who are free according to G-D`s law to marry whomsoever they choose. Here in N.America you can choose to be different and defy social conventions, but the land of your parent`s birth is not so tolerant of individuals who ``defy`` social customs. In fact, they are branded as trouble makers and hounded.

Any Comments ?

Re: Ferozk:
Aray aray baba itna ghussa, such profane language, it doesn’t become you Khan Sahib.
You Say:
``all I can say is get used to it! It is the same with the native Americans who complain about the loss of their ancestral lands to the white men. My one and only answer for these people with hurt and wounded nostalgia for the past is, ``well, you should have fought harder, shouldn`t you?`` The language of this country is English -``

If one were to take up your position, all the people who were conquered should lose their languages as a price (something that fortunately didn’t happen in the subcontinent, or Africa, or..... ….). This inhumane practice hopefully ended with slavery.

Someone might say that it is not your (the newest of immigrants ) place to chastise the natives of the land for not being ruthless enough when they were attacked with foreign diseases and weapons.

Because a group of people killed more natives than the other way around does not make it OK to defend all their future actions. Hopefully, even if they managed to ``win``, most civilized nations will continue to enrich themselves by the diversity in culture and language, which is why the old method of destroying all that was indigenous has long ago been abandoned by most civilized ``conquerors``.

Ferozk: You may not like it buddy, but Latinos, their culture, the Spanish language is here to stay in America. In many of the large cities of the US, it is the Latino which is the largest block of votes. In much of California, they are the majority... and it is that culture and that politics that will in the coming decades determine how the US evolves. Thankfully, they are a tolerant lot, far more so than whites, or other immigrants including the south asians... Don`t worry you won`t have to subsidize anything too much too long... since that culture is poised to be the dominant culture in the US, at least on both sides of the coasts, the southwest, and increasingly in the mid-west... Desis might well get some fovor out of this, since there are many cultural similarities... provided they don`t get wind of the recationaryism within the south asian communities in the US.

Zehra

Darn!! I was thinking about writing something along

the same lines... but gave up after i realized it

would have to be a trilogy ..

Part1--

`` Growing up a British/Pakistani Muslim in Saudi

Arabia where everyone kicks u around for being

non-arab...``

Part 2--

`` Continuing Growing up as a British/Pakistani

Muslim in Pakistan where u are kicked around coz yer

parents were not born in the boundaries of Pakistan``

Part 3--

`` Kinda grown-up British/Pakistani Muslim.. back

in Britain trying to figure out, `what the hell is

going on?` ``

I wanted to jump in the discussion...but the smog in karachi has clogged my brain ... i doubt i`ll say anything

intelligent. Besides .. the regulars are doing a good job .. i think i`ll just read and be enlightened.

ArtZ

Zehra:

My apologies! stand corrected.

Feroze:

Left an interact on the other thread-MATTER OF P.

regards

Re: Aliya post # 15

First of all, to all Chowkwallas and to you, I sincerely apolgise for the profane language I used. You were absolutely justified in admonishing my lack of manners on that point. I stand corrected.

I hope you`ll not be too discouraged by my posts to this article, but I am going to rant on this topic. In the words of a wise and irreverent sage, named Temporal, I am going to continually stir the hornet`s nest!

As to your arguments, I disagree on the simple point that if you are going to mess with the bull, you are going to get the horns. Aliya bibi, I have been kicked, punched, had my shoulder broken and have a few scars from some close encounters with a knife. I have been threatend with death on more than one occassion. The only reason that I am still here, is because I did not back down. I could have folded my tents and could easily have drifted off into the night, but I did not. I stood my ground and I fought my fights. I lost a few and I won some. Thats life, you roll the iron dice and you take your chances.

When I first came to this continent, in Canada, and later in these states, I had to fight tooth and nail for everything. I never expected anything to be handed to me on a silver plate and I knew that I had to be thrice as good as any other American. During my senior semester, I lived on top ramen and I still remember going to sleep with hunger pangs. I never asked for a quarter in any fight, because I knew none would be given to me.

This is where my resentment springs from. The immigrants, regardless of their national origins, who come here, expect everything to be handed to them and that this is the land of milk and honey. Yes, it is free, but you have to pay your dues before you can dine on a feast of milk and honey. This is specially true of the Hispanics. They are not willing to assimilate in the main stream and they are determined to keep their old ways. I have nothing against that, but what angers me is when they ask me to subsidize their cultural traditions. Being an early arrival myself, do I have the right to judge those before me? Yes, I do. I will not stand by while the events which influence my life unfold around me. If I see something which irks me, I will not turn around and go and sulk in some corner, but I will protest and I will rage against it.

Aliya bibi, the only reason I have survivied this harsh, cold and alien land, is because I learned the ways of the street. The life of an immigrant in this country is a street fight. It is not fought with Queensbury rules; it is not a fair fight. It is a dirty fight. In a street fight, Aliya bibi, if you do not put your opponent down, he is going to put you down and if you lose, you have no one to blame but yourself. Everything I do is for the brass ring, because there is no prize for coming second in this culture and there are two kinds of people in this culture; those that exploit and those who get exploited.

I apolgise for Zehra for using her article as a forum for this sort of sentiment, but that is the reality I face every day. Aliya bibi, the world may preach equality, but it will never practice what it preaches. In a perfect world, things may make sense, but this not a perfect world we live in and I react to, in trying to live, the reality as it exists and not I what I would wish it to be.

Re Frozk:

I suggest you take a cold shower - cause what you say makes no sense ;-)

But anyway, this hatred/stereotype is not new for immigrants coming to US. In the past, Irish, Italians, Chinese, Latins, all have been targets of stereotypes. Arabs are the current targets, and since we are mostly muslims (and some of us try to associate with Arabs) - are (wrongfully) considered Arabs as well. But by in large the society here is tolerant and more importantly this country has secular laws. Unlike, the ``land of the pure`` you don`t get killed here for belonging to a different religion or sect or burnt with acid for not wearing a hijab.

BTW, Islam should not be our identity but simply a religion, our identity should be our culture.

Feroze:

maliani may have stumbled on to something very important-----roll the dice( as you say)-----take a cold shower (as he says) and think up of some new opening lines----Valentine`s day is round the corner!

regards

Re: maliani post # 19

I am not sure which of my posts you were refering to, but I will try to give an answer. I think you mis-read my posts. I don`t a care a whit for sterotypes, be they Arabs or Muslims or Muslims pretending to Arabs or what ever. There are sterotypical targets in any society and whether the Arab-Muslim is hated or liked, I really don`t care.

Also, secular laws have nothing to do with what I was saying. My only complaint was, which Altaf in his post # 21 insightfully picked up, that I do not like to give special treatment to minorities just because they happen to be different. That is my only problem with multi-ethnic mosaic which the United States is turning into. I understand that everything evolves and not to evolve, is to die slowly. I have nothing against that argument.

Like Harry Truman said, ``if you can`t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!``

Re: Altaf post # 21

You have brought up some valid points. I am not going to disagree with what you have said, since that is the reality of what is going to happen in this country. The only thing which bothers me in this debate, multiculturism, is that every distinct ethnic group is slicing a piece of the American pie and it is getting increasingly difficult to forge a consensus on any issue, due to the polarization of differing viewpoints.

As a political operative, Gods knows that I am attuned to the votes and after the Hispanic voting block, the next emergent voting block is the Muslims, but that is still a few years ahead of us. Politically speaking, the idea of a cultural mosaic is a nightmare, because in order to satisfy all competing interests, the end result is that you are making promises that are diametrically opposed to what needs to happen. This country is owned by special political interests, be they AMA, NRA, etc and with the ethnic mix, it is damn near impossible to get anything done, because none of these groups wants to compromise. The politics of this country, the judicary, executive and the legislative, operate on the basis of compromise and the system of checks and balances was meant to encourage a sense of compromise.

This against my Republican mantra, but enough is enough and this country needs to revert back to what it was supposed to be and what Jefferson wanted - a populist democracy.

Anyways, yaar, thanks for bring some sanity into this discussion. It was spinning out of control!

``My take on that is to change what being ``american`` is all about. I want the term to fit who I am because dammit! I am american. As an american I can be whomever I choose to be and whoever doesn`t like it, can take a hike :)``

You go girl:)

I love it. That is the attitude you should walk with. Ferozek, hay koi jawab.

(As usual chingari chodday ja raha hoon)

ArtZ:

Please please please write your article! Emphasis on the part of what it`s like to be Pakistani/Muslim growing up in Britain. I feel like it`s a whole world I know nothing about. They`ve been going through this for so much longer than the North American counterparts, and I want to know what it`s like. It seems so much rougher, more violent, the racism more open, the hatred more apparent. It breeds a totally different race. Is there any truth to the comment that the Asians in Britain are treated the way the blacks are in the United States?

Omar1974: Thanks for your comments about circumcision and hijab. I found them very relevant. I feel that hijab is not a farz in Islam (after extensive reading, study, etc. could not find enough evidence to convince me that it was mandated by God). Still it is a practice less harmful than circumcision physically. Yet the way of convincing women that it is necessary (for whatever reason - morality, purity, a source of pride etc.) is the same as with female circumcision. In some quarters it verges on emotional blackmail. I couldn`t agree more with what you said about how our women take something negative and view it in a positive social context in the hopes that it will become more appealing. To me, it just goes against the grain.

ArtZ:

Please please please write your article! Emphasis on the part of what it`s like to be Pakistani/Muslim growing up in Britain. I feel like it`s a whole world I know nothing about. They`ve been going through this for so much longer than the North American counterparts, and I want to know what it`s like. It seems so much rougher, more violent, the racism more open, the hatred more apparent. It breeds a totally different race. Is there any truth to the comment that the Asians in Britain are treated the way the blacks are in the United States?

Omar1974: Thanks for your comments about circumcision and hijab. I found them very relevant. I feel that hijab is not a farz in Islam (after extensive reading, study, etc. could not find enough evidence to convince me that it was mandated by God). Still it is a practice less harmful than circumcision physically. Yet the way of convincing women that it is necessary (for whatever reason - morality, purity, a source of pride etc.) is the same as with female circumcision. In some quarters it verges on emotional blackmail. I couldn`t agree more with what you said about how our women take something negative and view it in a positive social context in the hopes that it will become more appealing. To me, it just goes against logic.

re: omar1974

i am absolutely dumbfounded by the fact that you have managed to draw a whole profile of Zehra just on the basis of her wearing a Hijab. you equate her choice, yes choice (i do know her) as a product of conditioning, ostracized adolesence, and false martyr complex.

Meanwhile you stand their with this holier than though voice of reason that is not interrupted by your very own biases or should i say conditioning. what fascinates me about (ex-)muslim `progressive boys` like you is how you run to defend a muslim womens right to wear a hijab but turn around to assert your progressiveness by reducing her to the status just that a hijabi, not a complete individual. so what is the difference between you and others who want to liberate the muslim women by forcing them to `unveil` themselves?

people have many different ways of relating to their belief systems, their identities. these relationships are not fixed in stone, inscribed in genes. one should have the right to express their identity any way they wish to as long as they are not causing harm to others. your false characterization of Zehra is a example of the pre-suppositions that you have about women who wear the hijab; i.e. she wears a hijab so she must be oppressed or brainwashed. if you want to get down to it we are all brainwashed by one form of discourse or another. to say that you hold the absolute truth on complex social issues is to be as fundamentalist as any retro-grade taliban mullah.

my thirty seconds of glory again.

temporal and ferozk..yaar tum logoon kay pass aur koiee kaam nahi hai? heheh, kidding, love hearing from you guys and im absolutely psyched that these issues are coming up into the forefront..thanks to the aliya/ferozk interaction.

re: omar1974 you said ``any comments?``

PLENTY. if you would like to know my stance on hijab please refer to the article by shandana minhas ``this should do it``. i went into unnecessary detail about my private life and the reasons i wore hijab. also see bina shahs article dealing with the shariat bill being passed in pakistan..the name of the article escapes me at this moment. regardless of my stance on hijab i must say, you have a patriarchal view on it yourself. you say that if you had a sister and if she wanted to wear hijab you would be against that....that if ANYTHING is what one should not have to deal with. being forced to be what somone else wants them to be. sometimes i think i wear hijab becuase i love the shocking value that comes from it. i routinely get stopped on the street from classmates asking why i wear hijab when i am not reinforcing any of their sterotypes that go along with it. i tell them its time that things changed and that everything really comes down to illusion doesnt it? what is my reality and how well can you deal with it, but more importantly, how is affecting your preception of the world? now im not saying that i wear hijab as a cute and clever gimmic, but for my own personal reasons..the shock value is just a bonus. thanks for your comments.

re: artz..WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN? your response cracked me up, but then you always did. email me or die :) also, did you say karachi???

re: ferozk..my my, preaching tons and tons of violence now, arent we? i know im totally going to come across a peace preaching hippie, but really, is alllll that violence necessary..i see your republican prespective but what about us liberals who want to give peace a chance? what about being the better person? im not saying to back down but is there NO other way we can go about this? are the canucks realllly that bad? also, is quebec city really as beautiful as some people say? one of these days, one of these days.

Re: maliani…you said:

``BTW, Islam should not be our identity but simply a religion, our identity should be our culture.``

Don`t you think the three are inextricably linked? I mean how does one differentiate between your religion, your identity and your culture? I call myself an American Muslim..that is my identity and I use both culture and religion to identity myself with. Also, many religions around the world, and we can talk specifically about Islam derive their culture from their religion..which would negate your point completely. Thanks for the commentary…though the bad mouthing of other readers could be omitted.

Re: afraisayab..you said :

``However, I am always amazed at the mentality behind the Muslims who were born here``

I was born and for most of the part have been bred here. Your point is a valid one of fob`s vs abcd`s but since in some circles im considered a fob and in others a abcd, I can say ive seen both sides of the picture..as for people whining about discrimination..well, we know it exist, but should really not whine about it. As ferozk has been saying, get up and fight, its not about to be handed to you on a chandi ka platter. I don`t quite agree with his aggressive stance but feel that awareness is ofcourse the key…education as always comes in and people like, fozia, who was the `token muslim` in her class and had to field questions, people like that make a difference. As I wrote, gone is the terrorist and enter your next door neighbors or classmates. We are not so foreign anymore and are making forays into mainstream culture all the time (the runways, Madonna, Talvin Singh, Cornershop, its all there). If we stop thinking of ourselves as foreign so will everyone else. Then again, why let go of who we are to become more `american`? My take on that is to change what being ``american`` is all about. I want the term to fit who I am because dammit! I am american. As an american I can be whomever I choose to be and whoever doesn`t like it, can take a hike :)

Re: gk…you said:

``I don`t want them to not fit in or to have to live a dual lifestyle, one at home and one at school.... yet the balance seems to be just out of my reach....am I missing something?``

don`t kid yourself. We all live dual lifestlyes. And its not only south asians, its all minorites who are trying to fit into the culture and scoiety that is different from their ``indigenous`` one ( I do qustion how mcuh of their societies are going to be left untouched by the corporate kfc, pizza hut fingers). The balance is in knowing that you have this duality and not feeling strange or bewildered by it but to embrace it ( I feel so completely cheesy at this point). By embracing this duality they can get the best ( and yes, there will be some not so good parts) of both worlds and be better, more aware, more understanding people. I went to pakistan for my formative years so take all of this with a handfull of salt. Doesn`t mean I still didn`t have to deal with it.

Thanks everyone for your comments. Its been a while since I have `dil khol kay baat` on chowk.

z.rizvi

Ms. Rizvi,

First of all you make it clear that there are conflicts between being a Muslim and being American but you never really explain them. What is it that you find so hard about being a Muslim in America. Name calling? Is that it? Please...most minorities have been subjected to far worse.

You also are very disturbed at the media image of Muslims, ie one of terrorists. Ever wonder why that stereotype exists. Could it be that ``our people`` have a higher than average propensity to blow up things (specially buildings with people inside). You yourself were ``convinced`` that the Okhlahoma blast was the work of Muslims. How can you expect apple-pie-Americans to not have the same reaction? Stereotypes do not evaporate overnight.

And pray tell... where do you get off not standing for the pledge of allegiance. Are you not an American? Has this country not given you freedom, an education and a high standard of living? Oh but yeah you get sh_t from cashiers for wearing mehndi. Oh my such oppression. Believe me I have no sympathy for immigrants who do not respect the institutions of this country. I am amazed at the number of immigrants this country accepts, whose loyalty in suspect at best and who expect the U.S. to change for them and won`t adapt to the local culture themselves.

Incidentally, I am working in the U.S. am planning on going back home and have no desire to become an American citizen. And I have no desire to raise a family in the culturally schizophrenic manner in which most desi families do.

Re: Aliya

``My initial objection to Rishi was also about this generalization about ALL hispanics .``

-- I was referring mostly to the views held by white/black Americans in America and also published information available on this issue. It is also a fact that California due to its huge Hispanic population is considering/considered spanish medium primary schools. But then, i perfectly understand that i am nobody to force them to learn English... Again, as a few Hispanics are realising nowadays, only English is going to help them grow up the social/economic ladder. There could be very many spanish speaking areas within America, but without English they would be only a sub-nation of shopkeepers and restauranteurs ....and that too is a fact.

However i stand corrected if it came across as a gross generalization. I accept that there are people within the community who don`t subscribe to this anti-english viewpoint.

Re: Zehra.

I have read your replies about your choice of Hijab in both the articles that you quoted. But then i was never convinced with the reasons that you gave. Heck, i was not convinced because you had to give reasons to convince. (do you really believe you wear it for the shock value you generate ...even if it happens to be a bonus). Then i realized that the truth is your choice is as individual as you are and as long as you can defend it to yourself then you must be okay. And expecting to convince everyone would be too much.

I agree that we all compromise somewhere. Like me choosing not to wear a certain torn, dirty Jeans just to please my parents or not to speak to a girl i somewhat fancy just because my girlfriend does not want me to. And when i make such compromises i come out with a feeling of having lost something within the bigger picture of making someone happier. Sometimes the sacrifices we make might mean a greater loss to us than to the people for whom we make a loss. In such cases, convincing the other person about the rationality would be more helpful for both than to blindly follow his/her wishes. For me something like the Hijab would be such an issue. For you it might be not so.

I would perceive it as causing more harm to my individual self than the comparative gain it provides my parents. In which case i would try hard to convince them about the difference between our choices. The final decision would depend on the circumstances. Like I would definitely marry a girl even against my parents wishes, but not wear a dirty jeans.

The distinction is a very fine line , if at all it exists. And towards the end it is only a personal choice as to where we all draw the line between our and others choice.

And the funnier part is nothing matters at all one way or the other

Responses eagerly awaited,

Rishi

re: bina To read more about what its like to grow up paki/british , pick up any hanif kureshi book. the black album or my all time favorite, the bhudda of suburbia. His books were my first glance at what pakis have to go through in Britain. I had NO idea it was that bad. That might have been why I enjoyed `the black album` actually. As to comparing FGM (female genital mutation) to hijab...you remind me of the close-minded freaks I had to deal with my freshman year in an all women`s institution (and we wonder why I wasn`t too keen about the college experience). They equated hijab with someone who would hold down another woman to see her all chopped up and sexless. I love your work and I think its so important that people like you are in Karachi creating awareness but there is no reason to alienate one group of women from another. Its like the suffragettes movement, where they felt that to further their cause they would have to overlook the rights of black women since the white male still couldn`t get the black chip off his shoulder. It`s a shame and instead of creating a bond that can strengthen and grow you are asking people to choose sides. If I wear hijab I cant be as liberal and open-minded as the rest. That is the message that you send out. I do not want this to turn into a hijab discussion..as ive pointed out countless times before..its pointless to discuss it. Thanks for your comments and lets see if we can pressure artz into becoming the next hanif kureshi.

Re: aliya. What a fascinating thing you said about hispanics in the united states. Who is included under this hispanic name? It usually entails all spanish speaking people ( that is also debatable since many cultures speaking what we term spanish don`t even call it spanish). Most of the south americans in the US feel out of place and do reminecse about their life back home. They are a resilient people and will make it work here because they have better living conditions and the civil wars they fight on the streets are less evil compared to the ones that left them homeless. I am not being in anyway patronizing, just very truthful about what really goes one. This is the land of my birth but I don`t call it home. I have yet to realize what home is for me. Its more a feeling than a physical location. I am lucky that way. There is an idea of home for every culture, especially in the US where its so easy to feel alienated. Im reading a book called `Zami: a different spelling of my name` by Audre Lourde right now and there is this definite idea of feeling isolated in this culture and needing something that represents home…in lourdes case it is this mythical land that her mother used to talk of and for lourde`s mother it is a mythical place that her mother used to talk about. Im getting tangential but the bottom line was, I don`t agree with your statement about this being home and that it is here and now or gone forever for hispanics. Who are we to make calls on their culture anyway? Now im really going to get tangential but since I can`t sit here for the next thirty minutes, mebbe it can be raised at some other point. Its like anthropologists going into these indigenous cultures and coming up with their theories..atleast we see representation in these departments in the present day and age by people of that specific culture being in that academic circle…atleast for south asain anthropology, can`t speak too much for the others. Thanks for raising that up aliya :)

z.rizvi

Re: ferozk

Good to see you back in your usual form.

I thought Altaf`s comments were quite relevant.

A minor detail about your earlier reply though:
How come you took one swipe at all the groups (native Americans, local spanish speaking and immigrant spanish speaking) together, I think these are very different groups and have very different historical/ cultural issues.

My initial objection to Rishi was also about this generalization about ALL hispanics .

Also: your message of fighting till the last breath may apply to Hispanics too who are trying to preserve their culture regardless of what American white majority determines as the ``norm``. Unlike you and me, this is their land by birth and not by choice, for many of them, their culture is not thriving in Pakistan or India or wherever, for them, its here and now or gone forever.

zehra, a serious topic very humorously expressed. enjoyed reading.

Re: Zehra

Religion is a subset of Culture and not the other way round!!

Re: Ferozk

What i wanted to comment was that you cannot discuss race relations simply on personal experience. And if you were beaten and stabbed it was totally inhumane and shouldn`t have happened. And it certainly does not justify that since it happened with you may happen to other immigrants as well.

Re: Faraz
You say ``..... and who expect the U.S. to change for them and won`t adapt to the local culture themselves.``

Interesting! Now you should apply this same statement in the case of Pakistan especially Sindh where muslim immigrants from India not only rejected the local culture but enforced their language and culture and expected the locals to change for them and did succeed to some extent.

Re: Zehra

BTW nations are made by common history, language, culture and socio-political interests.

Zehra:

well i would email but i dont have yer addie with me so y dont u email me??

and yes i said Karachi .. long story :)

Bina:

Unfortunately i`ve been an eternal FOB ... never stayed in one place long enough to figure it out ..

But as far as Asians in Britain are concerned ... well I have been living there for nearly 4 years now and there are soooo many elements that must be included in any article about the subject ... maybe it could be a sub-trilogy to my original trilogy :)

as far as Asians beaing treated as Blacks ... couldnt say for sure ... i dont have first hand knowledge about the US .. only what i hear, read, or see during my short visits there ..

but here is something interesting ... around November 98 i think .. there was this whole debate going on in various cirlces in London ... about whether `Asians` should be considered a separate race from `Blacks` ... my 2 bits in the opinion poll that followed were ... We Asians are more racist .. towards Africans as compared to any other grouping .. so that by default makes us a separate racial group ... QED :)

but I will soon post something about Muslims in Britain ..

ArtZ.

RE: Faraz

I was giggling throughout your response…this is said in no way to demean you at all but to let you know that i wasn`t offended. ( im sure you didn`t mean to offend so don`t worry, you didn`t). First of all let me make it clear that I never meant to explain anything. It was not an analytical essay but more a catharthic one. It wasn`t meant to edify anyone or any issue but written for the mere pleasure of writing and to collect my prize money ( yep, I got paid for that one). Secondly, name-calling for an adolescent is one of the worst things to happen. When you have children and someone harasses them on account for just being who they are, you let me know how that makes you feel. The image of terrorists, yes ofcourse there is that image, but I personally do not know of any terrorists whereas it used to be assumed that any Muslim walking down the street was a terrorist. All I was suggesting was that, guess what that stereotype has evaporated and hell, it`s a good thing that it has cuz im tired of telling people that yes indeed, I am carrying a bomb underneath my scarf. I suggest you read the content of me piece more carefully because the idea of stereotypes existing is very real and still there I never denied that. The pledge of alligence..i pledge alligence to no one but my god and this counrty of which I am a citizen gives me the choice for not pledging my allegence to it. Thank you amreeka! Adapting to local culture..what is the culture like in your area…every part of america has a different culture. This country of freedom, education and high standards also gives me the chance to be all that I can be ,and all that I can be is me. Why should I adapt? Don`t you think amreeka can handle people like me? isnt it called the melting pot? Incidentally, if I had to choose a local culture in america to live in, I think it would either be the big apple ( nyc) or new orleans..two different yet landmark american cultures. Just for clarification purposes faraz, I am not oppressed and never said I was. Read the piece again, multiple readings can give you a different perspective each time. You also said: ``And I have no desire to raise a family in the culturally schizophrenic manner in which most desi families do.``

I think I owe my parents big time for introducing me to a different perspective on life.

Re: Rishi you said : `` Then i realized that the truth is your choice is as individual as you are and as long as you can defend it to yourself then you must be okay. And expecting to convince everyone would be too much.`` Thank you so much. It does all come down to ME being comfortable with it. I mean how does one explain the myriad of reasons and feelings why we do the things we do? Its impossible and any explanation comes out half baked and its only frustrating. It does come down how I can explain things to myself and how I feel about that. Your anology of the dirty jeans was perfect. There are some things that we do to please our parents, that is so very true, and I will admit that that definitely plays a part in my wearing hijab. South asian parents have a strange hold on their children, and at times its almost tangible. But again, as you so wonderfully put it, I would not expect my parents to stand in my way if I chose to marry someone outside of my culture and/or religion. They wouldn`t give me the green light on that one but its something I would feel very strongly about and would have to counter whatever arguments they presented. Its all about how much priority you give that issue in your life and how much you want to fight for it. Thanks.

z.rizvi

re maliani
``religion is a subset of culture``

this is a rather narrow and linear view of culture, religion and identity. where does religion end and culture begin? can you truly cut up and break down your own person, your thoughts, your material environment into its `cultural` and `religious` pieces? EVEN if one takes the rather limited set theory definition of religion and culture, how does it delegitimise zehra`s self-identification as a cultural and religious muslim?

re: maliani
I see what you are saying regarding religion and culture. You separate the RITUAL from the SPIRITUAL. Like popular schools of Sufi thought that flourished in India, Bhakti movement and even modern day secularism.
However, to some Muslims the ritual, spiritual, culture, politics, clothing, eating, everything comes from Islam. While looking at non Arab countries one can easily point out cultural things that come from Islam (hence Arabic) and culture that comes from their pre-Islamic past (which the orthodox may consider pagan).
I think thats where the religion vs culture mixup occurs.

re:Zehra

In one instance you say ``how does one differentiate between your religion, your identity and your culture?`` and you go on to say that ``Islam specifically derives its culture from religion``. hence Muslims also do. Fair enough.

But then elsewhere you say, ``We (Muslims) are not so foreign anymore and are making forays into mainstream culture all the time (the runways, Madonna, Talvin Singh, Cornershop, its all there). I am not exactly sure what you mean. TS and Cornershop have nothing to do with Islam or Arabia. runway ???? Yasmin Ghauri (half German/half Pak) maybe.... Madonna chants in Sankrit and wears Mehandi ????
I think this is the dichotomy Maliani is referring to when he brings up differences in culture and religion in reference to non-Arab Muslims.

regards

Re: maliani post # 34

In response to your comment not to base race relations on personal experiences. Pray, please enlighten me just how we should base our race relations? Should we base them on texts books writen by an acdemic committee on Social Harmony?

We are all creatures of our environment and our own experiences in that environment shapes our realities. It seems that our experineces were different in this regard. As to being stabbed and being beaten being considered inhumane, inhumanity had nothing to do with it. I just didn`t put up a better fight that is all and I lost! I have only myself to blame!

Re: Aliya post # 29

In hindsight, I am sorry for subjecting you to my diatribe. It was uncalled for and I sincerely and humbly apoligise for my actions. You did not deserve such a response to your questions. My most sincere apology to you dear lady and in the future, I will promise to behave myself!!

As to your comment about my labeling different groups under one identity, the reason for that is they are all losers. North American indians, Spanish speaking population of pre-Texas, California, French speaking peoples in Canada, Americans or where ever such groups exist are losers because they lost their fights. Why don`t they expect the fact that they lost and themselves are to blame for their lot in life and just shut the hell up!!!

Aliya bibi, it rankles the hell out of me when these groups play the victim and ask people to feel sorry for them for being losers. It is the same with the American revisionism of Vietnam in movies and all the Rambo movies which try to show that America did not get its ass handed to it in Vietnam. The simple matter of fact is that they lost. They lost. This is nothing more than Darwinism at play.

You asked should these groups lose their cultural identity, language and traditions, because they lost a battle? The answer is yes! Look what the Romans did to Carthage after winning the Punic Wars of Hannibal. The Romans killed all the males, sold all the women and children into slavery and sowed salt in the ground, where Carthage was, so that nothing would grow there. That is the way I like it! That is retribution and fire and brimestone the way I like it! That is how we should deal with people like Saddam Hussein and that Butcher of Belgrade. I am sick and tired of those appeasers in NATO who just promise idle threats and do not back them up.

I think that the basic United States Marine Corps` creed should be this country`s basic policy in dealing with everyone: lets kill him all now and let God sort them out later! Thin the herd, thin the herd I say!!!!!

Re: Zehra post # 26

Hiya bud! I would give peace a chance, but it died with John Lennon a long time ago. I am not preaching violence, but merely reacting to it. Though I promise you, I will be a better person when I have killed all these (expletive deleted in deference to Aliya) who are making a (expletive deleted) and the world is a better place, because these (expletive deleted) are no longer around to (expletive deleted) thing ups!

Is there an alternative to violence? If there is, I am not interested in it!

On a lighter note. Quebec City is a beautiful and a charming place. It is like a piece of old Paris which has been transported to this continent. In winter, Quebec City holds an annual Winter Carnavel where people sculpt amazing ice sculptures. In summer, it is just a sheer delight. There are so many drop dead beautiful women in Quebec City and they know how to dress to your imaginations!

I love Canadians!!! Canadian women are more liberal, in my opinion in their sexual mores than American. On the other hand of the spectrum, the hardest women to get into bed are the Germans. Trying to get them into bed is like convincing the Gesatpo that one is not Jewish! Damn near impossible!! Now the best, are the French Canadians women...oh yeah, baby!!!:)

Re: To all who wrote about the melting pot/vs mosaic

It`s been interesting to read everyone`s comments on the subject. Personally I think despite the U.S`s best efforts to make their society a melting pot it will inevitably end up a mosaic. Question remains to be seen how long it will remain a harmonious mosaic.

It doesn`t matter that 2nd/3rd generation desis will all speak English only and eat pizza and french fries more than daal and curry. This is due to several reasons:

a) First generation immigrants socialize almost exclusively with people of the same cultural background. Small cities, large cities, the pattern is the same. Now in larger cities, the children grow up having socialized mainly with children of family friends and relatives - who are all desi. And as such feel more comfortable socializing with ``2nd generation`` desis. This doesn`t mean they won`t have friends that are non-desi, many still do,and there are always exceptions to this rule however the bulk of their socialization are with desis, or at the very least same religon if they are muslim.

Also most cities have ethnic ghettos which facilitate the socialization ``with your own kind``. Case in point: In the province of British Columbia there is a significant Sikh/Punjabi population that came in the early 1900`s to help build the Canadian Rail system ,do logging and farming. Now their descendants are 3rd generation plus, and they are still very distinct in their cultural outlook from what would be considered ``mainstream`` (read white anglo-saxon) Canadian society. However they are becoming more politically active as one of the cabinet ministers in the BC provincial gov`t is Sikh.

b)While myself and another other desis/muslim who are born on North America have an emotional attachment to the land (due to it being where one was born), I can not relate to the historical ``nostalgia`` of the pioneers forging out a place for themselves in the ``New World``. It doesn`t matter how many times I made paper log cabins in school and studied about the pioneers, it means nothing to me, aside from it being an interesting historical note. My history in North America started only after my parents arrived here. And so I reject the idea of having to conform to the anglo-saxon (or french)culture to be ``Canadian``. Of course I`m different than a desi from Pakistan, many of my opinions interests and outlooks on life will be different of someone directly from Pak. However, the effect of my parent`s values, opinions,outlook and interests shapes my personality as well and as such my definition of what it is to be Canadian will be very different than a descendant of a pioneer.

And that is where the melting pot idea fails.

Re: Amin Saleh

I actually have a pamphlet entitled:

25 Most Frequently Asked Questions About Islam by Shahid Athar. It`s published by Abdul Jalil

P.o box 962, Elberton, GA 30635

phone 706-283-7510.

It was reprinted by the Dawa Information Group

8424 Naab Road, Suite 1C, Indianapolis, IN 46260.

Give the above number a call or write them, and

I`m sure they can mail you a free copy.

Regards,

Fozia

Mubashir:

I resent your characterization of me as an x-muslim, were you to say that to my face in a public street, i assure u, you would be left spitting out a mouthful of teeth, wondering how you came to find yourself lying flat on your back in the dirt. I however am big enough not to feel the need to question your profession of faith, since i know that only G-D can judge what is in men`s/women`s hearts, not I, for i am not infallible.

Zehra : I Read your ALL your comments from the Shandana Minhas article. Okay, so you`re a real living, sensitive, breathing human being with real feelings, character and a mind of your own, under that black potato sack. There i said it!

I respect your rght to be American and be whatever you want to be completely since i deeply cherish the value of free speech and freedom of personhood.

Frankly if you are saying that you don`t don a hijab for religious reasons, well then I don`t care whether you wear jeans, Shalwar Kameez,a skirt, fishnet stockings or a bikini in public.

My point about hijab is that almost all women who wear it have the desire to do so inculcated into them, no one wakes up one fine morning and says, `let me hide my face from the world.` Lets not kid ourselves, you wear it not because hijab is in fashion or for any other frivilous reason, but because you believe its religiously required.

And that is precisely where i disagree with u, and will till my last breath.

As for my comment about my hypothetical sister, i didn`t mean to imply that i`d use anything beyond reasonable persuasion with her, it would shock me though since no one i know in my family wears it. There is no compulsion to, no one encourages it. Fact is, without a Hijab nurturing enviornment no woman will wear it. If i did anything beyond talk till i was blue in the face, yes, i`d be no better than those i despise).

I have developed a distaste for Hijab after thinking deeply and carefully about the insidious institution of patriarchy.

The women patriarchy produces only invite my pity, and perhaps contempt (though its not their fault) because they can never aspire to equality, or anything beyond servility in general. I respect those who stand up for themselves and no others. It doesn`t matter if they disagree with me, the point is to be able to think independantly for oneself. You really think Afghan women or Baluch women have that choice? Gimme a break. Their seclusion from society is enforced by their menfolk. You may be the exception to the rule, you may believe you are, but lets cut the b.s, we both know that at some point in your life the burqa/veil/hijab was presented as a pure ideal, and you accepted that at face value. Lets not deny that. My point is only that we should scratch between the hijab to determine who put the seed into your head and we will arrive at the truth. You yourself said you don`t understand why you wear it. Well, i am giving you the answer. But, doubtless your experiences in the world have created a shell around you that prevents words like these from penetrating and having any effect or inspiring self-questioning. As for sexless objects, can you really deny that its precisely what it looks like men have reduced women to? Because the men we are dealing with are secretly afraid of women?s sexuality/sensuality?

Check out, The Lack of Women`s Rights in Pakistan by Omar Mirza (moi) & Replies by me, and you will understand why i speak with such passion about this subject.

Rishi: re: ``few hispanics want to learn english`` -this is not really true, by and large most overwhleming majority want to learn English. The issue is a bigoted treatment towards Spanish. Latinos, 2nd generation etc. are very much bi-lingual. While for now English has a hold, iin the future Spanish will be the key to good positions, and networking. Even if English is the language of trade, Spanish is the language that will get you in through the ``informal`` door... this is a demographic reality. I honestly do not think that Muslims even register as a blip on the radar screen for now, they`re mostly concentrated in low level white collor jobs , rarely with any position of power or authority, and with little political muscle to show `cause of infighting, and disorganization.

Freozk: re: compromise: yes groups generally do need to compromise... but only when they need to do so. Right now Latinos have no need to compromise, speaking for Los Angeles, for example... the old Black political structrue is whitering away, and being rapidly replaced by Latino politics, that includes demmands that schools, and social services train and recruite people familiar with their language and culture. -I work as a social worker, in Compton, CA, a once Black city, now 60% Latino.. but the social services have not changed and continue to be focused only on Blacks. This will have to change very soon. (I by the way speak fluent Spanish, and lived in Mexico, and on the Texas/Mexico border for a few years -hence my sympathies:)) . Right now, in California, if you go for a job that involves any public contact, and you speak Spanish, chances are you`ll be placed fare ahead of other applicants). -Anyways this is a little digression from the topic) -But the next generation of desis may not be talking about

Pepsi, and McDonalds -they may be talking about burritos, enchiladas, horchata, and tortas, and tamarindos... -Altaf

omar1974 = God? are you telling me WHY i do certain things? you stand agaisnt patriarchy of any kind and here i feel that you are trying to run my life for me. don`t presume to tell me why i do certain things that i do. you, of all people will never know why i do anything, so please stop inferring from reading ONE piece by me why i do anything i do. this comming from someone who ``deeply cherishes the value of free speech and freedom of personhood``. let me be my own person and don`t answer any of my questions for me. bringing up afghan or balouchi women was totally a low blow since we are all more than aware that it is NOT a choice for them. tell me when have ``I`` preached to others to wear hijab and brainwashed them in any instance? your narrow-mindedness on this topic is...somehow not surprising. you say : ``but lets cut the b.s, we both know that at some point in your life the burqa/veil/hijab was presented as a pure ideal, and you accepted that at face value.`` i cannot Believe the gal it must have taken to write down such a patronzing and utterly ludicrous statement. your response just totally disturbed me...and to drive that point home, do NOT assume anything about me OR other women who wear hijab. you do NOT know the reasonsing behind it. in your god like stance you guessed the wrong color of my hijab..its white. i really want to succumb to a childish instinct and say nya nya na boo boo.

re: rana you said...

In one instance you say ``how does one differentiate between your religion, your identity and your culture?`` and you go on to say that ``Islam specifically derives its culture from religion``. hence Muslims also do.``

my lack of puncuation really is awful i know, what i said, and should have puncuated corretly was that ``that is my identity and I use both culture and religion to identity myself with. Also, many religions around the world, and we can talk specifically about Islam, (the missing comma there) derive their culture from their religion...``

what i meant by that statement, to just clarify was that there is no way one can hold culture identiy and religion as separate. there are so many things in my culture and in the arab culture that are direct resonants of religion, Islam. i am not saying that it is exclusivly Islam that is creating this culture but it does play a big role in forming culture. you also wrote :``TS and Cornershop have nothing to do with Islam or Arabia. runway ???? Yasmin Ghauri (half German/half Pak) maybe.... Madonna chants in Sankrit and wears Mehandi ????`` i should have again clarified. you took the ``we`` in that sentence to mean Muslim and i was referring to South Asians. i should have been more careful in presenting that bit but since being an american muslim of south asian decsent, things liek that do escape me. i meant that south asian culture is coming into the mainstream and that is why we are not so foreign anymore. on the runaway, i maent in terms of fashion. if you follow vogue etc, you will notice a definite trend in that direction. Ts and cornershop are also comming into the limelight or have been..i should have mentioned authors like arundathi roy and hanif kureshi. i hope that clarifys my position on that. for malianai edification i wil ljust cut and past bg`s response since its one that i would echo..

``

Feb-10-99 16:1:27 EST Reply #: 36

bg

re maliani

``religion is a subset of culture``

this is a rather narrow and linear view of culture, religion and identity. where does religion end and culture begin? can you truly cut up and break down your own person, your thoughts, your material environment into its `cultural` and `religious` pieces? EVEN if one takes the rather limited set theory definition of religion and culture, how does it delegitimise zehra`s self-identification as a cultural and religious muslim?

z.rizvi

Volumes can and will be written on this subject.
And somehow we need to continue to reach the American mass media on a regular basis.

The question is HOW?

The Muslim minority in the United States is
small yet generally quite successful. It needs
to find a balance between assimilation and
the negation of its environment.

Either way it is now a part of Americana. It certainly needs to work as hard as possible in building a more positive image in this society
in spite of the resistance faced. Getting into
the political mainstream (Democratic Party
or the Republicans) here is now a must.

Muslims need to advance further economically
and become EMPLOYERS instead of model employees.
Economic clout is almost divine in most parts
of the world today in which the West is no exception. We also need to COMMUNICATE with
our environment and attempt to dampen the ignorance and hate. Silent acceptance is no help.

Ras

Zehra:
Religious identity seems so different for people who grow up in the US, and for those who grow up back home. In my experience I see Americans embrace religion with a renewed sense of energy - maybe a reaction to the racism against and marginalization of Muslims in the US. Some non Americans, on the other hand, feel so detached from and weighed down by religion. Being bombarded in the 80s by Zia induced television that screamed religious propaganda, and presented one bearded man after another, and ended the day`s tv entertainment with Farman-i-elahi and the national anthem, one feels strangely about religion. Religion and Nationalism, all in one cup of bed time medicine. Seeing women tv actors cover their heads even while they slept in bed. Zia handing chaddors to dignatory wives, symbolizing, ``well this is how we want are women to be --wrapped up in chaddors..`` Seeing society become more and more hyprocritical in terms of religion. Telling you, I think it has an effect on you.

Ont thing, religion starts to scare you.

Religion scares me. I associate it with the world`s most perverse joke on humankind.

Zehra said:

There are some things that we do to please our parents, that is so very true, and I will admit that that definitely plays a part in my wearing hijab. South asian parents have a strange hold on their children, and at times its almost tangible. But again, as you so wonderfully put it, I would not expect my parents to stand in my way if I chose to marry someone outside of my culture and/or religion. They wouldn`t give me the green light on that one but its something I would feel very strongly about and would have to counter whatever arguments they presented. Its all about how much priority you give that issue in your life and how much you want to fight for it. Thanks.

z.rizvi

Listen Zehra, the last thing I meant to do was hurt your feelings, but in this post you yourself virtually admit my point about the PURE IDEAL that patriarchy presented to u (and I had not read this post when I sent my previous reply). So why quibble? As for my being G-D, well i`m most certainly not informed about other aspects of life, i can only make an educated guess at best regarding motivation, but i`m probably (rolling the dice) pretty darn close (if not rolling snake eyes every time), and perhaps that is making you too defensive.

I don`t think i implied that you encouraged anyone to don the hijab against their will, if you felt i did, i apologize, but facts are facts. That is precisely what most hijabans are forced to do. Sorry, but this is planet Earth, 1999, yet most Muslim women are living like it is still the middle ages thanks to muslim men who have made the value of wearing restrictive clothing into a positive social good. YES, its not about you only, my dear selfish one(grin), it IS POLITICAL.

The strange hold that S.Asian parents have (your self-confession) over their kids is possible only thru the institution of patriarchy.

And if you choose to marry someone outside your culture/religion be sure to write an article for all of us on your parents reaction/your (quite likely) ostracization from the extended family structure, the catharsis you went went thru, the final choice you made --- to desert your True Love Vs. Your Family. The Agony of that choice. The reality of today, as you write that piece. And conclude with your hope for a reconcilliation or better yet, leave it open ended with a sort of Che Serra Serra, whatever will be will be, the futures not ours to see Chae Serra Serra, i will always love my parents deep in the recesses of my heart/ or (depending on the outcome) my lost love. And finally,either the husband out of an arranged marriage comes home as the climax and you welcome him with din-din, or we realize that what your choice has cost you, you are 40, an aging old maid, still sitting at the home of your parents, never found love in life after you made another self-sacrifice. I?ll be more than happy to read the piece when u write it, if you care to share ofcourse.

PLEASE dont be mad at my little attempt at predective writing. I truly dont mean to make you mad. Just want to force you to think critically. I am not G-D! My opinions are not written on stone tablets. Still, I know something about how this world works, while i humbly acknowledge the possibility (say 15%) that I could be completely off base, 85% chances are that I struck a chord somewhere. Okay, so its a White head sack (the possibilty had crossed my mind) like a 5 kg bag of basmati rice or sugar. Yeah, i was wrong ....

I know life must be tough, and i seriously am the last guy who wants to make it tougher for you, honestly. In all liklihood im more likely to be one of the guys on your side than not, in terms of admiration for your donning the ghilaf (pillow case)in N.America, just because its gotta make everyday life more difficult. But i am a deep skeptic at heart regarding whether it can ever really be a product of free choice. Still i respect your courage, if not your, uh, (choice?).

sincerely,

Omar

If anyone knows the name of the article on Chowk on the Shariat Bill Zehra referred to earlier I`d be most obliged. I don`t believe that Bina Shah was the author.

sincerely,

OMAR1974

Zehra said:

There are some things that we do to please our parents, that is so very true, and I will admit that that definitely plays a part in my wearing hijab. South asian parents have a strange hold on their children, and at times its almost tangible. But again, as you so wonderfully put it, I would not expect my parents to stand in my way if I chose to marry someone outside of my culture and/or religion. They wouldn`t give me the green light on that one but its something I would feel very strongly about and would have to counter whatever arguments they presented. Its all about how much priority you give that issue in your life and how much you want to fight for it. Thanks.

z.rizvi

Listen Zehra, the last thing I meant to do was hurt your feelings, but in this post you yourself virtually admit my point about the PURE IDEAL that patriarchy presented to u (and I had not read this post when I sent my previous reply). So why quibble? As for my being G-D, well i`m most certainly not informed about other aspects of life, i can only make an educated guess at best regarding motivation, but i`m probably (rolling the dice) pretty darn close (if not rolling snake eyes every time), and perhaps that is making you too defensive.

I don`t think i implied that you encouraged anyone to don the hijab against their will, if you felt i did, i apologize, but facts are facts. That is precisely what most hijabans are forced to do. Sorry, but this is planet Earth, 1999, yet most Muslim women are living like it is still the middle ages thanks to muslim men who have made the value of wearing restrictive clothing into a positive social good. YES, its not about you only, my dear selfish one that I have plunged into this debate (grin), it IS POLITICAL.

If its ``all about the priority you give to the issue in your life``, are you saying that since this is a low priority issue for u personally, it wasn`t worth fighting your parents over the rights NOT to wear it, but free choice marriage is such an issue for u ?

The strange hold that S.Asian parents have (your self-confession) over their kids is possible only thru the institution of patriarchy.

And if you choose to marry someone outside your culture/religion be sure to write an article for all of us on your parents reaction/your (quite likely) ostracization from the extended family structure, the catharsis you went went thru, the final choice you made --- to desert your True Love Vs. Your Family. The Agony of that choice. The reality of today, as you write that piece. And conclude with your hope for a reconcilliation or better yet, leave it open ended with a sort of Che Serra Serra, whatever will be will be, the futures not ours to see Chae Serra Serra, i will always love my parents deep in the recesses of my heart/ or (depending on the outcome) my lost love. And finally,either the husband out of an arranged marriage comes home as the climax and you welcome him with din-din, or we realize that what your choice has cost you, you are 40, an aging old maid, still sitting at the home of your parents, never found love in life after you made another self-sacrifice. I?ll be more than happy to read the piece when u write it, if you care to share ofcourse.

PLEASE dont be mad at my little attempt at predective writing. I truly dont mean to make you mad. Just want to force you to think critically. I am not G-D! My opinions are not written on stone tablets. Still, I know something about how this world works, while i humbly acknowledge the possibility (say 15%) that I could be completely off base, 85% chances are that I struck a chord somewhere. Okay, so its a White head sack (the possibilty had crossed my mind) like a 5 kg bag of basmati rice or sugar. Yeah, i was wrong ....

I know life must be tough, and i seriously am the last guy who wants to make it tougher for you, honestly. In all liklihood im more likely to be one of the guys on your side than not, in terms of admiration for your donning the ghilaf (pillow case)in N.America, just because its gotta make everyday life more difficult. But i am a deep skeptic at heart regarding whether it can ever really be a product of free choice. Still i respect your courage, if not your, uh, (choice?).

sincerely,

Omar

Zehra says addressing me:

your narrow-mindedness on this topic is...somehow not surprising. you say : ``b