Discovering Ali Hasan

Re: slink

`BB, kabhi kabhi apnay mizaj kay khilaf Usool kee baat maan laina chaheay`. This article is almost getting off so perhaps I bump you somewhere in the Chowk soon.

regards

MAK

dear Faraz,

sorry for the late reply but i was out subduing all those heathens who don`t agree with me.if you would like to benefit five times over from my (wisely) held in check wisdom WATCH THIS SPACE....when you see the universe in that little dot right before that last `w`, only then will you be truly wise (and crosseyed) for those who stand permanently at a crossroads can best observe other people being run over.

re MAK,

are the foundations of your language,ideas and beliefs so weak that a bunch of `anglicised` women writing in lower case can shake them?
tsk tsk.you need to take iron tablets.

shandana

JamshedN`s idea of love & Life

`Can She Cook?`

`Can she clean?`

`Does she have a face?`

Good`nough! All right then, lets get married!

For one will do just as well as another.

One can always get another, like changing a flat tire with a spare one. Afterall, that`s why a car comes equipped with five, and a man has that same potential in life. (Allah Willing!)

JN introducing his wife to friends ...

`Meet/this is Sushila model#x no.x in my life thus far, she is taking care of my kids and home for right now.`

Find an automaton JN, your attitude towards finding a life partner borders from the casually interested/inclined to the callously misogynistic. Learn how to Love, and if you have forgotten how to, wonder at your own mardaangi, and personal shortcomings. Who says finding real love is easy?

If it were so easy (including replaceable), why would there be so many people with broken hearts. You cheapen the value of the human emotion of love with your comments. Who needs romance? Go to Desichick-Mart, or better yet, send sister & mommy to pick up the goods and make the selection.

OMAR1974 `Heart is a Spade`

Btw FerozK : I knew that would get your attention. :)

Waheed/Kafir,

Do you use these two names.

The same post is in another article also.

I don`t understand.

Re: Omar1974 # 75

Oh, yeah baby....that is the stuff dreams are made from!

The closest I came to heavan was when a few friends and I finished off a bottle of Hennesey`s Paradis, but Louis XIII is trully a religious experience.

God bless you my friend invoking its blessed name!

just to add one more line guys.........

when i say that THIS IS THE PERFECT GIRL I LIKE............am i not discriminating against the millions and millions of girls which i dont like?(ANY FEMINISTS......help me..)

take any girl and put your heart in your marriage guys .......whats the big deal yaar.......

Salaam people,

Well guys, when i said `LARKI JO KHANA ACHA BANATI HO, AUR(MERAY SEY)ZIADA BOLTI NA HO`, the point I wanted to make is that its not so difficult to work out a match with a marriage partner, as long as one is ready for adjustment....

Most of the girls are pretty much the same...nahin?( well, some girls are more beautiful than others....) a girl from a certain class would have typical social behaviour, values, opinions and aspirations.....a girl with a certain level of intelligence would have a certain personality( excuse me, feminists), a girl with a certain beauty level will have a certain attitude......the destinies of people are so very defined by their `surroundings` and their `ingredients`......ultimately....the `rational` choice that we make is a choice of the `right ingrdients` and not of an interesting person.....its not love guys...its a mathematical solution to a third order partial diffrential equation...........

the point is .....DOES IT REALLY MATTER to me that whether my girl knows how many kids did che guevara had? or what is an rs232 interface? or how many angles does a burmuda triangle have? and if it really DOES matter........then i am not looking for a person, but a match to my `specifications`...DOES NOT SEEM PRETTY MUCH HUMAN TO ME,...........KYUN?

lets not define our lives with a pen and paper, let beauty take its course, let our eyes be attracted by what we see....lets not define what we should see.........let life be open , fresh and surprising........take it as it comes......

WHAT IS MARRIAGE?

u damn two people to an imprisonment for ten years, and when u take them out after ten years .....they would be best friends......or atleast intimate partners......thats how a marriage works.....when u r not looking at other `options`/ there r no options.....any marriage works.......its a pretty crude way of saying it, but thats the way it comes to.

AND WHY MARRIAGE?

to raise a family.........ofcourse,....dont be ridiculous.......

any girl would do yaar, nahin?

mohabbat, love , amicalement is a beautiful feeling, let it take its toll, lets not try to define `mujhe kiss tarhan key bandey / bandee sey mohabbat honi chaheye` .........

`ISTARHAN BHI KABHI MOHABBAT HOTI HAI ........... ....CHAAD YAAR`

jamshedN

Due to the considerable length of the article and the lack of time in my part refrained me to read the entire article but looking at some responses it seems the article is worthwhile to be commented.

The main reason coming to this article is the `conspiracy` against the Chowk undermining the beauty of English language. I had noticed the lower case `conspiracy` early in the beginning but neglected considering trivial. Now as someone commented on this it is absolutely immoral to neglect the advise as some `Anglicized` women continue defying the rules of the language. We really need an inhibitory to defend the Chowk from the prodigious onset.

MAK

Re:SR

``Assuming a normal distribution in beauty it should follow that there are equal numbers of ugly as well as good-looking men and women. You assert that the good-looking women get hooked up with the ugly guys. Okay, we`ll accept that, but then the question arises: what happens to all the ugly women and all the good looking men? Since good looking men and ugly women are not hooking up, are we therefore to assume that the ranks of the unmarried are swelling up with the leftover ugly women and good looking men? ``

I didn`t say that handsome men are being doomed to bachelorhood. However I would dare to think that some ``ugly`` women would have trouble finding a mate. One thing that we need to remember that due to naturally higher male infant mortality rates (baby girls will eventually grow into child-bearing women and nature has made their natural defenses stronger as such), there is always a slightly higher number of women around then men. There are countries where men outnumber women ,but that is due more to female fetuses being aborted or to malnourishing the female children then to natural occurance.

So because there are more women in this world men have more ``selection`` and handsome men have no trouble finding a woman who is attracted to him. And since men do give more preference to looks than women, these guys will invariably be with good looking women.

Not-so-handsome men can also feel at liberty of finding a beautiful wife, because many women are insecure about being single forever , they are just happy to have a man in their lives. :)

My real question to what I wrote last time was: Why don`t I ever see handsome men with below average looking women? These women don`t necessarily have to be ``fat``, they may just not have fine features, or in desi world- have extremely dark skin or anything else that is presumed to be unattractive to a particular culture.

Regards,

Fozia

Fozia Reply #: 71

You wrote:
[``…over the world one will often see couples where the woman is beautiful and the guy is not even close in good looks. However I`ve very very very rarely seen the opposite- A
handsome man with an average or below average looking woman…``]

Your comment has really perplexed me. I`ve used my abacus to calculate it seven different ways, but no matter what formula I use, the math does not work out.

Assuming a normal distribution in beauty it should follow that there are equal numbers of ugly as well as good-looking men and women. You assert that the good-looking women get hooked up with the ugly guys. Okay, we`ll accept that, but then the question arises: what happens to all the ugly women and all the good looking men? Since good looking men and ugly women are not hooking up, are we therefore to assume that the ranks of the unmarried are swelling up with the leftover ugly women and good looking men?

Re: Shandana, BG, Zehra and all other font co-conspirators.

It has been discovered, following a thorough investigation that a conspiracy is indeed underway. The above named three women are actually one and the same person and he is a middle aged man, who is not really a man but an alien from outer space.

There have been several more message writers on Chowk lately who have come out of their lower-case closets and unveiled their true colors. It has been learnt that these people are all aliens who founded the cult popularized by the poet e. e. cummings, and they actually intend to use the Chowk to undermine the very foundations of language, indeed of all culture and civilization as we know it.

Arise ye wretched of the Chowk, and unite to end this plague.

jamshedN: ``When i started with my quest for that perfect girl (now woman), i felt that it was compusory that my relationship would have love, attraction, sexual need, platonic understanding, intimacy, common interests etc etc...........now, when i have asked my mama to find a girl for me after 12 years of pacing the sands of sahara` .........my specification are pretty much clear............LARKI JO KHAANA ACHA BANATI HO , AUR (MERAY SEY)ZIADA BOLTI NA HO. ``

is it only good food and a good listener you want from a life partner? is it difficult to find someone you love and respect, who has a brain, or is it not worth the wait?

omar1974: ``My advice to you though, you don`t really need a wife, just get a maid (hire some filipino or Sri Lankan in the gulf)``

hmmm...i assume you are thinking of a male maid, right? a pakistani would do just as well, no?

Feroz:

If we discover what makes any two people `tick`, then a cure for common cold, cancer, spinal cord injuries etc, would be just round the corner. Matters such as these (of the upper or lower extremities) should best be left a la Tennyson!

Tangent: heard a story why our Pinky babe fell for that Mustachiou. For reasons we all know, everyone treats Pinky with kid gloves. Once, she suffered a minor injury. Our feudal Moustache took charge and bundled her off in his car to the doctor. The rest, as the clicche goes, is history.


Tangent2: Take two tablets for the headache.

regards

Slink/Shandana : JamshedN ? does not deserve a true partner in life, given this mentality. I do not wish to see him create another martyr in yet another vagina (now i do remember that phrase from a chowk article, love it, whoever coined it)out of some actually sentient (this would be the real tragedy, if she were actually self aware enough to posess an independent consciousness of her own self worth and existence independant of her husband)Pakistani girl whom he would reduce to the status of a maid. Hopefully he just made these comments to provoke us, and really doesn`t mean them. But there are others who in real life want precisely what this gentleman articulated. Not someone to share the simple joys and pain of life with, the poetry of Ghalib, the jublibation of career success, the euphoria at buying the first BMW, etc. No, for him a woman w/o an education or a brain (preferably a village illiterate, abused as a child and made `passive`) will suffice just nicely, for she will not feel herself at least to be confined by his attitude, will accept all, and have few if any expectations in life of her own. Her happiness will consist of seeing him satisfied in life, as she waits upon him (JamshedN) hand and foot, and does the cooking, cleaning, and the rearing of his children. (I don`t mean to suggest he would want to cannabalize his own kids -grin-) She will lie quietly on her back, take no pleasure, and be satisfied in the thought that he husband is satiated. After that, he will just turn the lights out and roll over.

OMAR1974 `Painting a clear and vivid picture`

Ferozk : Just 2 words for u buddy.:)

Louis XIII V.V.S.O.P

$120/shot

Re: Zehra post # 68

Zehra, are you still hurting...? Do you require some medical attention...? :)

Re: Fozia post # 71

In response to your good looking woman - average looking man comment, I have seen many beautiful women who were dating just ordinary looking men. A friend of mine dated Niki Taylor and married her. His name was Matt Martinez; there was a story about them in some magazine a long time ago. (In case you`re wondering, Niki Taylor hails from Idaho). He was an average looking guy.

One of my dorm friends used to date cheerleaders and he was overweight, balding, crude, sexist and just plain disgusting. One of my fraternity brothers, considered as not too easy on the eyes, would date these incredible sex nymphs. I know friends who date plain looking women even though they could do so better with good looking ones.

It all boils down to a personal sense or level of confidence. One of the girls, who is a babe, told me that she was dating this average guy, because he would not cheat on her since he knew that he couldn`t do better than her. Another friend, though he dated some really good looking women, married the second girl he had sex with, because he didn`t think he could get it else where. Now, she is abusive to him, mocks him in front of others and he just takes it, because he thinks he can`t do better than her. It is all about confidence.

Concerning the RD story about the woman with cancer and the man who married her, it happens, but it is still an exception to the rule. I do not know what the term is from the female side of the equation, but we males refer to it, one of us suffering from, as being p * *sy whipped! Enough of this putting the woman on a pedestal and worshipping her. I have never chased a woman out of the door and apologised to her for making her mad. Some times I just want to offend them, because they are so full of themselves. In fact, I tell them that if they walk out of the door, I am changing the locks!

Re: JamshedN

You have the right idea...delegate responsibility to others!

Re: Temporal #66

That was interesting, but reading it gave me a headache! Were you trying to be subtle and suggest something to someone?

Re: Omar

Hey, no problem. We have all said things that we have regreted. I have had my share of those moments too. While in college, I was the author of some really fine faux pas. Like when a serious girlfriend of a friend over heard me say that he was having sex with another girl!

Though I have never been slapped, I did once kick a girl in the butt during a party, because she did not get out of my way fast enough!

Some day, we will have to share these stories over some brandy and cigars.

re: ferozk..``silly little girl``

ouch

rizvi

Re:Shandana,

Yeah it`s pretty clear in the story that Shanon`s beauty is what first attracts Ali`s attentions and thus makes her a ``possibility``. Which is a very typical male response. What I find both annoying and amusing is that one will often see a below average looking guy who isn`t anything great in other aspects of life either, thinking that only a beautiful girl should be lucky enough to be with him. Now in the west this type of guy will quickly be rebuffed when he asks her out and hence will lower his standards.

Now in our desi arranged marriage world, when some ugly old guy expects a beautiful girl, often times they succeed because the girl`s families are often insecure about if their daughter will ever get married and hence to proceed with the match.

All over the world one will often see couples where the woman is beautiful and the guy is not even close in good looks. However I`ve very very very rarely seen the opposite- A handsome man with an average or below average looking woman.

On a side note: A friend and I were discussing the other day about how in the desi arranged marriage world, if someone has a major physical disability or suffering from a major illness than their hopes of getting married are very very low.

I read a beautiful story in Reader`s Digest of a man who fell in love with a woman who is terminally ill with cancer and is expected to die in 2-5 years. Yet he married her knowing this and showers her with unconditional love making her last few years as happy as he possibly can.

Has there ever been such a story in the subcontinent? I`ve never heard of any...

Regards,

Fozia

I`m tickled to death by your response JamshedN. My advice to you though, you don`t really need a wife, just get a maid (hire some filipino or Sri Lankan in the gulf). Afterall, based on what your requirements are, that is really all you require, (why do u need to involve your mother & sister afterall you`re a grown man)and you can even start a family with her, and she`ll raise the kids, and you won`t need to pay for a baby sitter! Or get a Massi!

OMAR

re: slinks

2 out of 10 things? Are you saying we only get to see your self-censored side? Maybe you should call yourself slink lite. I think you should be more liberal with your wisdom. After all it causes be great pain to know that I could be getting 5 times as much ``enlightenment`` from you as I do right now!

Now since you seem to be hung up on this size debate, let me point out that all I was saying was that if we are going to make psychological assesments based on some peoples refusal to use capital letters then we should note that on Chowk, at least, this condition exists primarily in women. In the real world, ofcourse guys are more concerned with size (but we weren`t talking about that we were talking about Chowk and capital letters).

Oh and the appearance thing. Sure guys are more visually-oriented in their mating habits. Big deal, that`s just the way it is (not just in Pakistan either). In the same manner, I can say that desi korees are way too influenced by money. Infact I would venture to say that a guy`s personality, looks and worth as a potential mate in a desi girls eyes are correlated with his bank balance. Now before you throw another hissy fit, let me say that this is a generalization and a crude one at that (much like your comment about guys and women`s looks).

``thought police``. Humaree billee, humain hee meeow? When I first used the term feminazi it was exactly this that I was talking about. Why else would I be so attacked for saying that there was nothing wrong in wanting a ``proper`` girl? Thought policing comes more from the liberals who feel an urgent need to protect their latest cause (such as the plight of lactose-intolerant people in Ethiopia)and to enforce political correctness. I would be more than happy to police thoughts, as well, but haven`t found too many here lately.

Oh and regarding how my `kind` has so pressured women in to obsessing with their looks. (how this is caused by male influences). Hmm. In your infamous Lahore ``article`` you made fun of Lahori guys for obsessing over their looks because they were shallow and insecure. However if women do it, its because the male-dominated world is oppressing them. (I wonder where Lahori women fit. In the insecure pool because of their city, or in the oppressed pool because of their gender?) But once again I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe through my evil habits of actually being attracted to women that are not fat, I have caused a lot of pain in this world. I am sending all such oppressed women I know, a million twinkies each so they can make up for all the missed ladoos and barfis. I hope they will forgive me and can now eat and grow plump to their hearts content.

Apka humble ``Idiot`` and the first link in the ``chain of asinine evoution.``

Faraz

ps Re: JamshedN

Good luck with your search. The importance of the second requirement has started to dawn on me only recently.

shandana/slink/shandy/eklarki/herslinkness:

bhayeeyehkyabaathooi?surfingthrutheresponsesyounheenchaltaychaltayithoughtthiscannotbehappening!getmesomemoreicethnakyouhaantouiwassayingsuckingontoesorbitingforthatmatterareindicationofdireneedforsecuritysortofcarrywithyousecurityblanket.thankyoucanihavesomemoreofthathaantouwhatisthematterwiththisworldofoursthatyouthinkcannotbeattributedtomen?haanjiachchajisir/madamji?Chaltaychaltayyehbhikhayaalaatahaikayifmardauratjeewankigarrikaydoupayyayhaintousarailzaamsirifekpayyayparkiyoundiyajaai?kabhibuskibaathotihaysometimeswetalkoflineofcontrolthendraginthousandyearoldbiasesreligioncarriersaurnajanykiyajantartmantarandthenwegobacktofreud&jungetall.lagtahayagarallmenarecastratedthenallorifnotallatleastmostproblemswouldberesolvedlaikinkabhikabhihumsouchtayhainwhatislifewithouththisminorirritation?aurhaanaapkiwohbaatdesimalestreanofconsciousnesswalibuhatachchilagee.khushraho,

re sR

okAy, hOw aboUT tHis? is tHis sTyLe toO wIeRd? wiLl sLinK`s azeEz hamWatAn haVe a cOw? (lEt mE telL yoU, iT taKes aN awfULly loNg tiMe to tYpe tHis waY, buT miGht gEt beTter wIth prActiCe)

meray azeez humwatanperson aka Faraz,

are you suggesting i cannot be tactfully silent?!? that is far more insulting than any allusion to your stupidity (soddy sentence construction again *sigh *).since you`re giving me the benefit of the doubt (no doubt because i`m a ``hastrical`` desi woman) give me also leave to tell you i generally say only 2 out of every 10 things i want to say. this restriction is self-imposed for two reasons
one..words often fail me and i just grimace instead, though of course you can`t see that.
two..desi men get annoyed and claim i`m a feminazi.

as for chowk making me feel like a small person and hence compelling me to write in lowercase..you`re absolutely right. surrounded as i am by idiots, i cannot help but feel i`m just an amoeba in the chain of asinine evoution.

there is indeed nothing more annoying than a `stream a consciousness` spouting desi. i shall keep a sharp eye out for them and let you the minute i see one so you can call the thought police.

obsession with size a purely female thing?!? halooo? i`ve yet to see a bunch of women sitting around comparing, but all the men i`ve ever been close to have been very hung up on size in relation to both the male and the female anatomy. one interesting issue that this story brought up that i have been tactfully silent about so far (see?) is the fact that appearance is an important consideration to a man sizing up a `possibility` whereas women don`t attach so much importance to it.i also think any (and i grant there is a lot) feminine neurosis about weight,size etc can be traced to the pressure exerted upon women to conform to a mans idea of what is desirable..the fact that women now put as much pressure upon each other to look a certain way is secondary..the primary influence was male.
any responses to the above would be welcome.
i shall now go and chew on my other foot.
shandana

I have asked my mama to find a girl for me.........my specification are pretty much clear........LARKI JO KHAANA ACHA BANATI HO , AUR (MERAY SEY)ZIADA BOLTI NA HO.

After reading the article and the subsequent 62 replies, it is pretty interesting to know that ali`s conflict in the story has turned into a debate on `proper and apropriate` behaviour of the desi male in a multicultural west. Feminists have presented their point well...the need for the desi male to come out of his dominant/ confused / mama`s boy behaviour and mature into an `egalitarian` `normal` male of the ninties with the `right` kind of aceptable `table manners` for the feminists. Desi lads are also clever in suggesting that at the end of the day.....its the good, desi, sharif, piyaaaaare bacchi that he needs to fit into his life of a conformist desi male.



I was discussing adult relationships with an indian friend in dubai last year, and i told him that of all the friends at my university in lahore, not one married the girl he loved / dated and almost everyone is satisfied with marriage. well, my indian friend told me ....either u guys are the most primitive of all races ...or the most advanced......



I have been through three unsucessful relationships and now I am twenty seven, I have been through puppy love and platonic love and first sight love and every sight love......but just been unlucky (lucky??).....so the only way i can start a family is to find a girl quickly, which my mama / sister can...n get married .



When i started with my quest for that perfect girl (now woman), i felt that it was compusory that my relationship would have love, attraction, sexual need, platonic understanding, intimacy, common interests etc etc...........now, when i have asked my mama to find a girl for me after 12 years of pacing the sands of sahara` .........my specification are pretty much clear............LARKI JO KHAANA ACHA BANATI HO , AUR (MERAY SEY)ZIADA BOLTI NA HO.

Re: Omar1974 and Lady Zehra

Just a distraction....

All right you two! Enough of this I said - I said tete a tete.

Now Omar, lets talk about this slapping episode shall we? I need to know what were the circumtances and what were your intentions my friend! Nothing honorable I hope?

Zehra, Omar may not be trying to change you, but I am. I just talked with a voodoo witch doctor and she tells me that if I take one white piece of cloth, one lump of coal, two bits of dog hair and an empty McDonald`s cheeseburger warper, and some virgin olive oil and burn them together, you will, lo and and behold, no longer be a silly little girl, but will be able to write and InterAct on Chowk without annoying Temporal`s lingusitic sensibilities!

I am awaiting the first salvo of your return fire....

Ferozk : Well, they were definitely not honorable. In fact now that i recollect what i said publically about her before, repeatedly, i was just asking/begging for this kind of response. I have no wish to repeat what i said.

My fault entirely. It had one heck of a sting though, i can testify to that. I thought about dumping her right then and there, then decided that i was making a real mountain out of a molehill, since i was the one in the wrong anyway, upon rational reflection. So, we discussed it and cooled off.

OMAR

dearest omar: thanks for not wanting to change me in any way...lets try one more tiny thing..stop telling me who i am :) the reason i say this (beating a dead horse i know) is that you still make comments like, ooh, rankled you didn`t i? when oooh, you really don`t :)

have you heard from the chowk staff abour piece yet? i think it takes about two weeks for them to read and decide etc...unless there isn`t a large volume of material being handed in. good luck with that...the piece i was going to send to you got LOST becuase of the stoopid virus on my disk..im looking for a backup copy..

later

z

Dear Zehra,

I already repeatedly stated in my earlier posts on your article that i am not categorizing you into some repressed desi chick box (I read too many of your previous posts to make that mistake). I am NOT kidding. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF G-D stop saying that you think i want to change u in any way, shape, or form, or have this idea of your being a VICTIM of any kind. If i make a generalized comment w/o specifically referring to you, it means that you shouldnt think you are always just a target as the TOKEN HIJABI FEMINIST.

I`ll say this for the last time JUST to be CLEAR. I HAVE EVERY RESPECT FOR YOUR IDENTITY & NO SECRET DESIRE TO SEE YOU CHANGE WHATSOEVER AS I HAVE STATED REPEATEDLY, but we always come back to your making the same comment that i want to see u change etc.

On a lighter note, yes, being smacked hard across the face is pretty stunning. And after the initial anger comes under control (pindrop 1, pindrop 2 ...)in the long run its probably true that i would respect someone who could do it if i really deserved it (on reflection I REALLY, SERIOUSLY DESERVED the smack i got). And im a better man for admitting it. :)



OMAR

FARAZ;

SORRY TO JUMP INTO AN ONGOING DISCUSSION LIKE THIS BUT I COULD NOT RESIST IT. COULD NOT CARE LESS--- AS LONG THE SENTENCES ARE PUNCTUATED. NOW THAT IS A THOUGHT IF THIS LOWER CASE BUSINESS SPREADS, THE NEXT THING WOULD BE COMMAS AND STOPS. THAT WILL BE LIKE A NOVICE READING GHALIB. WELL, COULD BE A LOTTA FUN.

t(withalowercase)emporal

Re: temporal

Yes that is exactly the problem. Capitals today, punctuation tomorrow. And there is nothing more dangerous than a ``stream-of-conscious``ing desi!

Faraz

dear Faraz,

terribly sorry but i forgot to hold the shift key down in my last post hence the `f` was little.i will now keep tactfully silent and say nothing about the male obsession with size.

her slinkness (do you think you can get everybody to call me that? or do i have to unintentionally insult them too?)

re:omar and my s-spot

i know you must be a real stud in rael life omar but it does take a lil more to hit my sore spot. keep trying..all i was saying is that by the types of comments you make generalizing all womenfolk into one category or box, i wonder about you not being smacked..and truth be told..you would probably respect the woman more if she did..case in point, your current gf...seeing how you really don`t knwo me or what makes me tick, yet you are convinced you have me pegged down to be a seroisuly repressed desi woman..so be it..i dont and the time nor the inclination to change your preception of me..regardless of what you think, im still going to be me :)

on a more serious and less personal note..thanks for bringing up the part of kids growing up here and their parents still 20 years backwards in pakistan. its absolutely unfair of parents to expect children to grow up like they did years back in another country trying to hold onto values that are so foreign to them (children). i was talking to a friend over the weekend and we talked of culture and identity and neither being ameican nor pakistani. pakistan is just an idea, a homeland that represents certain concepts. the trend is that pakistan represents concepts of repression and opression. he was telling me how hard it was for him to relate to being pakistani when he had nothing but his parents idea of pakistan to hold onto. finding his own niche, his own perception of who he was and who he is is still being formed but it is more stable. the term `abcd` used to offend him beyond belief...for me both terms fob and abcd fit. it depends on who i am hanging out with...those who have never lived in paksitan call me a fob for having lived there for 7 years and for having picked up quirks in my language becuse of it and people who haved lived in pakistan for most of their lives call me an abcd..too american to actully be pakistani according to them..my accent is too amreekan for them. i would continue but i need to evacuate viruses living on all my disks. lucky me.

z.rizvi

Re: her slinkness

You and ``tactfully silent``? Khuda vo waqt na lae! I don`t think you`d be any fun as the quiet type. Hain Jee?

Aur as long as we are talking obsession with size and its relationship to the use of capitals, let`s not forget that so far this ``condition`` has only affected women. Maybe its some web based psychological need to be a small person. Maybe you guys could even write about the oppressive social conditions on Chowk, which force you to write in small letters when your heart secretly cries out for the freedom that is UPPERCASE. Maybe you are all uppercase women trapped in lower case keyboards. Now that`s a tangent worth pursuing. Kyon jee?

Faraz

dear faraz,

of course it was shoddy sentence construction.

shandana

Dear Zehra,

Thanks for your comments. I guess i was just trying to point out that not all desi guys are so bad as to want their mama`s to pick out their wives for them. Come to think of it, in Freudian terms, isint that just a little bit sick? The woman who gives birth to you also picks who you share a bed with? Or is it just me thats out of touch with reality? So much for all the good mama`s boyz.

Z says: Re Omar: repression creating serious mental problems in desi chicks..

one day some chick is going to just smack you..unless it hasn`t already been done.

REALLY !!!! I seriously doubt that (its been done just once, by my current gf and i don`t remember why). If anything i`m a pretty good shoulder to cry on, and someone who generally can be counted on to empathize. As for being smacked, gee thanks ... feel free anytime. Its true i probably would let any woman get 1 freebee ....:) FRANKLY ZEHRA, i`ve seen just a bit too much repression among desi chicks up close and personal to just ignore it. And it seems to be the direct result of the desi culture. It doesn`t matter whether its in Pakistan or in N.America. Its the same crap dished out by the majority of desi parents everywhere that creates psychiatric patients out of their otherwise perfectly healthy normal daughters. Some suffer silently, others act out.

But i suppose one can argue its most interesting from a clincal study point of view when the kids grow up in N.America while the parents are still mentally still living in Pakistan (of 20 years back). That really creates the most serious problems for the kids. I think that the reason you felt like smacking me is that what i said hit a sore spot and really rankled with you. Otherwise you`d never have lost your cool.

Its okay Z, like i said, one freebee (its true I can usually just about get anyone`s goat).

Smile,

OMAR

Re Omar: repression creating serious mental problems in desi chicks..

one day some chick is going to just smack you..unless it hasn`t already been done. repression creates problems in ALL people..though i do feel that desis are better equipped to handle and ignore it and lead relatively normal lives. the strength to deal with repression is inherent for the average desi, male or female. and just for clarification purposes, i don`t consider anyone on chowk to be the average desi. also, i read your article and it seems that chowk may go ahead and publish it..it wasn`t all that risqué as you claimed it to be..talk to shahbaz ( where is that boy?)..you seemed to want to elicit a reaction from me ( seeing how i am the token hijabi feminist non-conformist activist on chowk)..truth be told, i thought it well written, a lil more editing would refine it and it was entertaining. thanks for sending it on to me. i wasn`t recoiling from anything you had written cuz i have friends who would fit the character you portrayed. one of them a former boyfriend.

Re: sr and the lowercase conspiracy..

my lips are sealed and go back to my other posts..im always lower case…i don`t believe however that ive gone from Zehra to zehra as of yet..the cult headed by ``---`` has not fully transformed me, but i have said too much already. do not worry, dear SR, we are safe and loved and will be better human beings for this. (that`s what the brochure said) sachee main waisay, im just too damn lazy and i like the way it looks. though when i type my replies up in a Word document, it automatically capitalizes etc for me..so that is nice :) i have had complaints about it before. also, thanks for responding about your kids growing up and the kind of identity issues they may or may not face..im looking to actually design a major that deals with culture, politics, ethnicity, history and philosophy all in one..the closest thing ive come to that is folklore..lets see kya hota hai.

Re :feminism

just to add on to what bg has said about feminism…people will always ask how i can call myself a feminist and still wear hijab and support arranged marriages, or the big one, plan on not having some professional career..that actually angered many of the young women i studied with at a woman`s college..well, the answer is simple, feminism allows me to be whoever i choose to be. whoever i choose to be is the most important thing to me and i realize that somewhat naively i assume the rest of the world will follow suit..that is just who i am..

Re: the pakistani male

fozia seemed to think it was natural for him to feel this way since its just a crush. tto me, as i mentioned before it seemed really pathetic that one glance of her was enough but then again, that is the idea of ishq in pakistan..for the masses atleast. this is why i believe that arranged marriages to some extent do work in pakistan and other places around the world ( faraz, i don`t feel that most marriages are unhappy..many are but not most..gross generalization on your part). personally, since the idea of this kind of ishq does not jel for me, i would never be satisfied by an arranged marriage but there are people whom it works for, and why not let them be happy? in omars story, (the one he thinks chowk will not publish for content, he emailed it to me), one of the women portrayed is this bold and daring creature but she goes ahead and marries in the traditional way. in the story ``for my love`` on chowk, read the two sides that there are to every issue..its never, never just black and white. i hope that makes sense to some extent..sorta tangential but then that always happens on chowk :)

as a sidenote: all those interested in a big chowk bash, email me at errerr@hotmail.com. im just seeing how many people would actually want to attend. feedback is important.

z. rizvi

re: bg

No offense intended. It is a pretty funny term though (and no, I`m not a fan of Rush).

re: Her Slinkness

``that comment was not a personal statement meant to hint at your stupidity``

I`m hoping that was just poor sentence construction and not another insult!!! I`ll give you the benfit of the doubt.

Faraz

ps. Oh and ladies, its ``Faraz`` not ``faraz``. I know its a big zehmat for you but please, maree khatir, hold down that shift key.

re faraz

`` feminazis``

dear faraz, you have hit a nerve. pardon me while i go into a monologue:)

first of all, ``feminazi`` is just a label to discredit feminists/feminism. and like all other labels, it is meaningless. it is meant to deride, not to respond to any real feminist concerns or arguments.

secondly, this lable feminist + nazi implies a fascist feminist. this may be a funny way to retort, but does in no way do any justice to the feminist ideology or movement. the most basic definition of feminism that most feminists would probably agree to is: equal rights for women and men (however defined). no feminismt movement has every been fascist in the way that movements in the US or europe are/were or like the religious movements in our part of the world are. i can understand when rush limbaugh coins and uses this term (what else can one expect from him?) but it is troubling coming from others who may not have bothered to think about the term or about feminism.

thirdly, feminism has NOTHING TO DO with man-hating or man-bashing. if women attack men, it doesnt mean that they are feminists or that feminism promotes man-hating or that all feminists are man-haters.

the best feminist thinking focuses on power analysis and at its core, feminism is a challenge to traditional relationships, distribution and structures of power.

feminist critiques go way beyond what are understood as gender relationships -- that is the relationship between men and women. they include contributions to history, philosophy, epistemology, sceince, theology, economics, politics and popular culture, to name a few. speaking for myself, feminism has given me a whole new look on LIFE, not just women, not just men. it has not taught me to hate men. on the contrary, i am much more sensitive now to different kinds of oppression that men and women face for different reasons.

regards.

re sr

you are cracking me up. no, please dont write in lower case only. as easy as it may be to type, its harder to read ;)

fyi, i know one man who types in lower case only, inspired by crunchy-granola organizations who use lower case only (in their materials) to appear friendly, accessible, informal.

i think the men on chowk dont, because aside for a few notable exceptions, they tend to be more conformist than the women. (of course i`m not suggesting that using lower case only is some kind of political statement, but it does show indifference to tradition)

you already know why shandana and i do it. lets see what zehra has to say...

dear dear sr,

i`ve always used lower case (you can go back and look at my oldest posts on chowk main forum if you like..or you can just take my provocative word for it). it`s because i`m too lazy to find the shift key.if i did it once, then the beginning of every sentence would expect me to act the same way.
if there is indeed a conspiracy..i`m not going to be the one to break and spill the beans.

.handana

It does not matter whether one is desi, valayetti, cheeney or japani, love and lust are basic to our nature.

Tender nurturing and a sustained diligent effort cultivate love over a period of time. Love gradually grows and constantly evolves. It is multidimensional. It is the evergreen tree that grows from the seeds of liking planted in the soil of trust. It needs sharing, patience and understanding, like a plant needs water, nourishment and sunshine. Neglect or abuse it and it can perish. Cultivate it and love thrives.

Lust is only the raw animal passion, as real as hunger, thirst, pain, anger or joy. None of these passing waves ever last, but they are all valid and must be celebrated as they manifest life itself.

Sudden infatuation, on the other hand, usually breeds repentance.

re: slink

This is off the subject (an irrelevant tangent) but I`m beginning to get concerned about this growing trend on the Chowk. Just because its becoming an obsession does not mean that I`m off the mark, there must be a conspiracy somewhere here. I wrote about it under Zehra`s `Muslim in You Ass A` article, but then the article vanished somewhere deep into the cyber bowels of the Chowk. The plague is spreading and you are the third person to get effected now.

First it was BG (who became bg) and then Zehra become zehra and now et tu shandana from Shandana? Why do you women only use all lower case letters in your writing? (No guys have demonstrated this malady yet, so it may be gender specific?) You certainly didn`t used to do this before, but now you too do it.

Like I said to Zehra, I`m not imploring anyone to use UPPER case letters (in first person singular pronouns, beginning of sentences and proper nouns, name initials and acronyms). Is it just plain old laziness that prevents you to press the `shift` key? Is it, as I am really beginning to wonder, some radical feminist revolt against patriarchal conventions of English language? What is it? The trend is growing others are also doing it more and more.

now i`m no longer just plain old curious. i am getting worried, the bug is spreading.

...SR

re faraz,

`did you ever write anything with a different intent than that of shocking people?`?

actually, yes. the only thing i have written with just the itent of provoking people was `city of gargoyles`. if you go back and read my second comment to rehan, you`ll find i advise him against it.

`non-married male cannot ever understand the saas-bahu relationship...too stupid etc`

that comment was not a personal statement meant to hint at your stupidity. i do believe to truly understand a situation, you have to be a part of it. right now, you aren`t, and since you are male you will never have the same relationship with your saas that you future wife will. this has nothing to do with whether you are stupid or not. don`t take it so personally.

shandana

Its the turn of the century. With all its portends of doom and promises of el dorado -- the 21st Century stands poised.

Oblivious masses of humainty stare happily at the shadows shifting, morphing, undulating on the walls that hem in their lives. Distorted perceptions of morality engage in a desperate scuffle with dimmed intellects and blunted spiritualities until passion thought emotion reason are strangled -- by the unyielding rhetoric of culture and religion that rules upon the foundation of innumerate ``because we say so``.

Then why blame the product of the system ? Ali Hasan is a product of the system. And for every insensitive, immature gland there exists a self absorbed bundle of caprice.

Maybe Ali Hasan did make the right choice. For him. After all its not easy being a scandal.

cheers

dL

Re Jawaraha

``Faraz, if success and happiness of a complex relationship like marriage is measured by an absence of divorce, then yes, arranged marriages are totally successful``

No, no no. That was so not my point. My point was that even accounting for the fact that some desi marriages are held together by the taboo associated with divorce, the success rate (the presence of ``Companionship, friendship, love, support etc. etc`` in a good deal of arranged marriages) is too high to be considered due to chance alone. There is something in the system that does work. I wasn`t implying that it is the only feasible option or even if it is the most feasible, only that there is some intrinsic merit to it.

re: slink

Do you ever write anything with a different intent than that of shocking people?

``chowk has had `the guts` to print material far more provocative than anything you could possibly dig out of the mind of a desi male``

and

``the pakistani male will not grow up ``

I`m not insulted, just amused at your little tirade. It would be pretty interesting to see the response from the feminazis on Chowk if a desi male were to ever make such sexist statements directed at desi women.

Oh and I can`t ``ever`` understand the saas-bahu panga? Never? Too stupid to?

And the Houris waiting in heaven: Take it up with God.

Faraz

Hamlet & Ali Hassan

Perhaps its only appropriate that the Prince of Denmark and the vaccillitating nerd boy appear together in the same essay. He too was neurotic, and prone to the anxieties of Nerd boy here. They do share similar character traits, and ``the thing`` preys too deeply upon their minds as they vacillitate between action & inaction. I wonder if the author realized this irony he inadvertantly created by quoting from Hamlet or not ? Can we get an honest answer ?

OMAR

Dear Slink a/k/a Shandana,

Then We Shall See.

OMAR

re omar1974,

chowk has had `the guts` to print material far more provocative than anything you could possibly dig out of the mind of a desi male.

re fozia,

sure you find this everywhere, sure young women can be equally stupid. it`s just very pathetic to see this is a college student, particularly one who takes himself and his sense of identity very seriously.perhaps its also that rehan has erected a cardboard figure for me, representing all that i detest in the male of this species, and shooting bull bullets at it is a form of venting for me (and perhaps other anonymous readers).
the difference between the east and west is that in situations like this in most other countries where bands like boyzone etc are popular, the kids in question grow up, have the opportunity to experience different forms of lust and love etc.here, there is no tomorrow. there is only the endless day of immaturity as soceity,tradition and religion slither together to form a blanket around his perceptions. the pakistani male will not grow up because his doing so will threaten the fabric of our present soceity, of his power, of his control over the workings of this country. he doesn`t need to grow up, he just needs to learn how to provide..in this he is as much a slave to expectations as the woman is..but his reward is greater, not just more freedom (movement, speech etc) but also houris in heaven when he dies.

re faraz,

may i suggest that it is impossible for you, a `not married` male, to ever even come close to understanding the saas-bahu relationship.

shandana

Jawahara2: Hilarious pun. The Jewels have probably been conferred to someone else by now, given the strong & intolerant patriarchical family background of the person i had in mind. However, I shall always hold the exclusive intellectual property rights in that nick name.:)

Hope you & she both find real happiness in life. You are both equally impassioned about certain things. Repression does no good but create serious mental problems in desi chicks.

regards,

OMAR

I`m surprised at all those going on and on about Ali Hasan being immature, loser, needs to get-a-life etc etc. When I first read this story, my first impressions were that this guy went through the classic symptoms of what`s called a CRUSH. Other ways to describe this would be Puppy love, and being head-over-heels in ``love``. For those of you who think this is a desi-male phenomenon only, I ask that you step into your average high-school/junior high school in the west and you`ll find that most non-desi kids have experienced some version of crush-like feelings too. i.e being consumed by feelings of ``love`` for someone they`ve only seen from a distance or talked or danced with once.

For those wanting to dismiss this as male-only behavior, let me remind you the BackStreet Boys and N`Sync wouldn`t be selling any records if it weren`t for the hordes of teenage girls who are absolutely ``IN LOVE`` with these ``cute`` boys that sing ``I`m going to Love you forever`` in 10 different ways and then distribute that as a new album release.

Have any of these girls ever met the boys? If they are lucky they dished out $50+ for a concert and saw them from a distance and dreamed about the day they will be walking down the aisle with them.

Pathetic? Of course! Not to worry though, most will grow out of it in a few years when they hit their 20`s.

Ali Hasan`s problem is that his background is from a culture where exposure to the opposite sex is limited. And as such his puppy love stage is repressed and comes out at a later age when he hits college. To add further complication he is attracted from afar to a girl who is obvious very different from him in many ways.

If he was in Pakistan and was attracted to some girl in college, he wouldn`t be consumed by such doubts of whether the girl will ``blend in`` to his cultural background and personality. He`d simply chat it up with the girl. If the girl, being likewise inexperienced in ``love``,is sufficiently attracted to him, would proceed to fall into puppy love. And then both would live happily ever after... Until the parents find out that is! :)

What I doubt is completely realistic about Ali Hasan, is the fact that he`d ``decide`` not to pursue her after pondering the prospect for a few days. In my opinion he most likely would have pursued such a relationship, which either resulted in something great or something horrible. If it did end horribly then after that he`d approach his mom and tell her to find him a ``Piyaari, shareef, and non-taiz`` larkee.``... :)

Cheers

Fozia

re amber

i like the way you have inserted that poem at the end. makes the point well. but for the line

``My face is my dowry sir.``

i would change it to:

My brain is my fortune (dowry) sir.

cheers :)

re amber

i like the way you have inserted that poem at the end. makes the point well. but for the line

``My face is my dowry sir.``

i would change it to:

My brain is my fortune sir, she said.

cheers :)

re: Amber reply 29

Believe me I have no need to protect the image of the desi male. I was just trying to provide a male perspective on these things. After all, ``we`` were all being dismissed as Mama`s boys and only ``aik aaath` were considered smooth. Puhlease! Not that I give a damn, but it is a tad hypocritcal to talk about the abysmal state of desi romance, and blame it only on the guys. It takes two to (or as in most desi cases not to) tango my dear.

Regarding the saas-bahu thing; I think you miss my point. I doubt that the problem exculsively lies with either party, as a male all I can say is I wouldn`t want to listen to it from either side. Work it out.

``We are all prim and proper girls but when someone is expecting you to fulfil requirements a to z, then the question is Mr. how about fulfilling mine before that``

When did I say that`s not important? Don`t write me off as one of those guys please.

kab mujhako aiteraaf-e-muhabbat na thaa ``Faraz``

kab main ney kahaa thaa sazaaen mujhe na do?

Faraz

ps. By the way, I`m not married so don`t think this is coming from experience.

Omar: Mmmmm...you must have the wrong Jawahara, because I never went to NYU.Hope you find your ``Jewels, `` (any pun was totally unexpected, though irresistible, sorry, sorry, sorry).

Faraz, if success and happiness of a complex relationship like marriage is measured by an absence of divorce, then yes, arranged marriages are totally successful. However, in this day and age, many people look for more than a bread-winner, and a bread maker who sits at home. Companionship, friendship, love, support etc. etc. Are certainly what I looked for in marriage, and it s been 5 wonderful years so far. And I have closely observed other couples who are perfectly happy as well, and did not get married because of any pressures. But then I guess I and they broke most every rule there was. Essentially if you want something wonderfully different you have to take wonderfully huge chances.

So, yes, a lot of people do get married due to cultural/traditional conditioning because they are given no choices, and because of the contingent of harrassers that sprout once young men and women start advancing to undesirable ages. And because they are fed with the fear of evil ``love,`` marriages, and a lack of belief in their own abilities of discernment.

Match-makers look for (as stated in my previous post) superficial things like looks and money (which are important I ll grant), but they never look at personality types, what each person thinks of and expects from marriage. The list goes on.

Also, if all the good sons out there cannot take the biggest decision of their life, i.e. who to spend their life with, perhaps they are not mature enough to be husbands and fathers anyway.

For whoever had problems with Ali Hasan, I think he is the product of all the things I`ve mentioned above. Never seeing women as individual people and getting swayed by a pretty face enough to avow undying love stems from the aspects of society described above, I think.

That s all for now. Over and out

Re: Shandana, Amber, Zehra, jawahara, SR & FerozK

I personally think you guyz started an interesting conversation about Desi male`s expectations and i hate to disagree with you all, particularly the ladies (perhaps they are right about 98% of the confused Desi boys) but there is a great deal more to growing up, even falling in love than this b.s that Rehan Rizvi has concocted thru the lens of Ali Hasan. Rehan my friend, you know NOTHING about either LOVE or LUST or the power of unbounded passion of ANY KIND. Like I said the ending is all wrong, this fool Ali Hassan does not even attempt to obtain love, he lack both a real heart and soul.

I wrote something that is the perfect counter to your piece just a couple of weeks ago. I somehow doubt that Chowk will have the guts to publish it, but it paints a very different picture of a young desi male than you have painted here thru the eyes of Ali Hassan.

ZEHRA : Check your hotmail account. I sent you a copy (I couldn`t resist after reading your comments here about wanting to know what is really on the minds of young desi males today and what some of them really want in a woman).:)

Its also unlikely to leave the image of desi females in a very flattering light.

OMAR MIRZA

Jawahara :

Hey Jewels!

You must have graduated from NYU by now. Funny bumping into you here. Perhaps not surprising though. Drop me an e-mail for the heck of it at OMAR1974@aol.com.

P.S Guess what, The last time you saw me in Bobst basement, i knew. You thought i didn`t, but i did. That old joke is definitely on you pal.

OMAR

Re: Jawaraha and the arranged-marriage-boogie man

``The whole concept of arranged marriage is too much of a barter/economic exchange for my taste``

In my opinion, the statement would equally true even without the word arranged in it. I have never found much rationale behind marriage, not that I think it is a bad insitution. Why do people get married if it is not because of cultural/tradional conditioning?

``Furthermore, I think most desi marriages are quite unhappy``

I have to say I disagree with that. In general (and as you have already pointed out we are painting very broad strokes here), both desi marriages and desi families are stronger then western ones and not just because of the taboo of divorce. I am no fan of the arrangedness of desi marriages but I have to conceed that their success rate is too high as to merely be explained by the presence of certain cultural taboos. In the U.S. a 50% divorce rate (of all new marriages) is something that calls in to question the long term viability of the institution itself.

And happiness in a marriage, not that we can measure such a thing, is probably more plentiful in desi marriages then in western ones. What ticks off a lot of people, especially westernized desis, is that the ``Ali Ahsun``s of the world, having never had a serious relationship in their life upon reaching the mid twenties, go to their (now infamous) mothers and ask that a wife be found for him.

Most of the time, if the guy has a halfway decent job or family background, he ends up getting a girl he could have never have gotten if he had to compete in the open market place (a la western style dating). Most of the time the girl is too inexperienced to know the difference. But anyway they get married...and this the part that really ticks off the ABCDs..they seem to be happy!(I know it doesn`t make any sense but it happens, maybe because the couple ``don`t know any better`` , but it does happen). After all if you subscribe to the western concept of true love leading to happiness, you should never have such happiness in any arranged marriage simply because the marriage did not arise out of true love.

Incidentally, do you realize the kind of chaos that would ensue in desidom if all these ``desi romeos`` were told by their mothers that they had to find wives for themselves! Most would imply not be able to do it!

At the end of the day both a perfect marriage and true love remain unattainable for most people.... that is if they even exist at all..... but it is fun to what them try,

Faraz

Here are my thoughts on some of the issues raised by Faraz in particular.

Yes, good looking women can be interesting etc. Yet, for some reason, these same desi Romeos also

secretly dream of some kick-ass woman who is transformed into the ideal bahu in front of their saas and saur. I would like to say, however, that it is indeed the right of a man to want a girl he can fit into a nice grid, as it is, for women.

The whole concept of arranged marriage is too much of a barter/economic exchange for my taste. Women only look to see what a suitor earns, and how much mom and dad can spend on her jewelry. And men expect women who are totally gorgeous as well as modern yet traditional, educated but willing to stay home and massage mother-in-law`s legs etc.

Yes I am aware I am painting in broad strokes, and so there are plenty of exceptions to this. But as a system, this is quite right on, I think.

Furthermore, I think most desi marriages are quite unhappy. The lack of divorces do not happy marriages make. Instead both partners make each other`s life miserable or are just indifferent to the other. Mothers, who have no other available emotional output, give all to the sons (usually). Therefore, the new bride is seen as an interloper. Some other woman more important in Raja beta`s life.

The purpose of my tirade was not to point fingers at any persons. Rather, it stems from the distaste I feel for the entire system of *choosing * brides and grooms, with little regard to knowing the actual qualities husbands and wives need to have a happy and successful relationship.

That`s all for now, I guess.:-) Sorry for the typos. Gotta run.

Re Slink, Amber and the ``Prim & Proper Wife``

I represent the typical desi male about as much as you guys probably represent the typical desi Khattoon but in the interest of all those desi guys silently observing I would like to make some observations:

1. There is absolutely nothing wrong in wanting a ``proper`` wife. There I said it...taking a wife is probably the single most important decision in a desi male`s life, you can`t blame him for wanting someone that is presentable. (And that does not preclude you from getting to know that person well before the shadi.) Last time I checked good looking, proper women could be just as interesting and intelligent as others.

2. ``Mammaa`s boys``- Both of you are very critical about how much control the mamma`s have over their son`s choice of a wife and indeed his tastes. This is such a woman thing. The Saas-Bahu relationship is very tense and is usually fought over the right to control the poor guy. And your primal need to compete with the Saas is reflected in your posts! And....well come to think of it....all these Mammas were jawan desi korees like yourselves back in the day. What is it about motherhood that transforms the desi woman in to one of those ``mamma`s`` that controls and manipulates their son`s lives? Are you guys going to turn out any different?

3. Conceded the guys can be just as juzbaatee as the women, desis like to be over-emotional as chacha Ghalib points out:

Ruggon may dorthay phirnay key hum naheen qayil

Jo ankh he say na tupkey, vo lahu kya hai?

Ferozk

Sex will get you through times without love, better then love will get you through times without sex.

re `why pakistani men have to have prim and proper wives`..

perhaps because
a) thats what their mammas told them
b) they feel threatened by a more experienced woman, or even just a woman who`s ideas are different
c) what are they looking for precisely? a child carrier, a water buffalo, so they look for those qualities which they think will make the subject a good mother..wide hips etc..someone relatively docile yet strong who can survive great trauma without question..someone who is not dumb but obedient..someone who doesn`t want a great share in decision making even though she is obviously capable of it (running a house isn`t easy)..
all this, and they also secretly want someone who likes to be on top. baicharay..such confusion..how much easier it would be if they weren`t so scared.

re young desi men in love...

they moon a lot. and i`d like to challenge the assertion that it is the woman who is dramatic and gets `intense`. we`ve seen quite a few cases of `young man gets angry..shoots woman who jilted him` here..doesn`t that qualify as dramatic?

to be fair in the end it doesn`t come down to man or woman, desi or otherwise, it comes down to the quality of human beings this nation is producing.and it just seems to be going down down dowwwwwwnnnnn.

shandana

Re: Faraz post # 23

This reply is in response to your post to Zehra`s desi paramours!

Zehra is going to tear out my heart with a dull tea spoon for saying this, but what the hell....

Difference between love and sex is:

sex; when you intend to call her, but can`t remember her name!

love; telling her what you are thinking after sex!

Re Zehra and the Desi-Male-in-Love

You are quite right in your assessment of the desi-male`s abilities in Love. However, I think that although they are inept, thoroughly schoolboyish,etc etc, they do have above-average sincerity.

Also, I have seen a few ankles in my time...but alas they don`t do much for me ....and I have a pretty good imagination! (incidentally it was because of Hijab and burqas---that ankles became arousing to some desis....after all how much of a turn on is potato sack walking around? Can you picture a couple of desis sitting around talking about ``the one in the brown burqa she was so fine!?``...consequently any skin these poor guys could see became attractive)

And you can`t blame the desi fool; most of these guys do not have meaningful interaction with members of the opposite sex. What little they know of ishq, is derived from crude Indian movies (Taking a chick to the park to dance and sing, and change outfits a few times doesn`t exactly work).

At the end of the day, to differentiate between sex and love...requires some experience in both, and our society offers little chances of that. Interestingly though the desi male has adapted some very interesting mating rituals; including the phone-taar (I don`t think this happens many other countries)

And Pakistani girls aren`t exactly all that experienced, you have to promise most of them heaven and earth to get beyond the ankle-phase. While desi-guys have lust and love all mixed up, the korees can`t claim to be any better-----knowing no other conclusion or destination to a relationship (whether sexual or not) then a full-blown shaadi.

Faraz

ps. I agree desi guys aren`t, in general, all that, but only `aik aath`? Itnay Guy guzray hain hum? Say it ain`t so....

`When a man`s dick gets harder than his head, he`s as good as dead.`

i didnt think that this line was offensive in any way..crude yes, but offensive no..its good advice and many young desi men like our pal ali hasan here, should take heed...

being shia myself, it added just so much more for me to read of ali hasan`s pathetic attmepts at love. its sad really that these are the losers that my lot `must` choose from. i don`t think his being shia had anything to do with his being a loser however...most shairi, as beautiful as it is, is about unrequited love and how just a glimpse of this womans ankle is enough for some poor majnooN to get a hard on...`that` is our lot. enough bashing on those who cannot help but be mama`s boys and losers ( not that the two are synonmous).

lets talk about this thread that you bring up about desi boys and their abilities (or lack of) of handling love and sex. i am interested, from a womans persepctive to hear what is going on in the minds of young men when they need to deal with love, lust, desire, sex and women. i mean, it cant all be as bad as ali hasan? actually, i know for a fact its not..i do know `aik aath` murd log who can be pretty sauve and debonair...though im sure they practice in front of the mirror. just like male aneroxia, this topic has also not been discussed.

rizvi

Rehan:

It appears that the response Ali H`s journal got from some of us was a bit too strong. This only goes to demonstrate your remarkable success at creating a real-life character. Even though I could see that it was Ali H (a character), you`d made him so very real that, at least, I felt compelled to address HIM as if he were reading in person.

Poor Ali made me cringe. He invokes a gut reaction with his misguided, confused, immature, sexually-repressed and emotionally thwarted personality. Unfortunately, he is entirely too close to the actual reality of many young men from our part of the world. You painted a picture with photo-realism precision. It is obvious that you must have known similar personalities in real-life.

This may be a good place to explore some of the issues faced by our repressed young men. Much is said about the plight of our young women, but few have attempted to explore the utter de-linking of mental fantasy with objective reality that many of our young men are afflicted with.

Denial and ignorance of one`s feelings is a strong trait that is developed along with inculcation of confused values which come to clash with reality when young men are sent out in the world. Many mamma`s boys who utterly overestimate their manhood fall flat on their faces when reality hits. It creates personality problems and complexes and renders many incapable of ever having meaningful, satisfying and `safe` relationships with the opposite sex.

I apologize if my crude remarks in the earlier message were offensive. They were meant to be, but only for the purpose of triggering comments on this subject. Evidently, it wasn`t provocative enough: no body reacted.

Once again, I`m glad you`ve attempted to open up this Pendora`s box. I`m curious to see if people have any interest in exploring this thread.

...SR

dear rehan,

my apologies,having read over my response i realise i`ve been guilty of doing what i have detested in others i.e. confusing the voice of the character with that of the author. it wasn`t intentional..i didn`t actually think you were ali hasan..but still annoying.
my point has now evolved to..why would you want to waste what writing ability you have on such a noxious character? are all young pakistani men in their first year at college this immature? i dont think so. you did in a sense make this character appear lifelike for me, but only because i reacted blindly to certain `objectionable` notions he had.
as a writer, it`s very easy to get people to react, it`s much harder getting them to think in a way conducive to a free flow of ideas and (eventually) some kind of positive change. that is where your focus should be..not neccesarily all the time (write `nonsense` for every `serious` piece to keep yourself interested)..but certainly some of the time.
good luck!

shandana

Re: ayaashi post # 16

Good question! I have no idea. I do not think that it was either the style or content, maybe the just the theme....anyways, it triggered a response!

Re: ALL

Thank you all for your comments, criticism and suggestions. I don`t claim to be a writer, I just try to write. And this is the first time I`ve seriously tried my hands on writing fiction. However, from the responses so far, I`ve concluded that I must`ve done a reasonably decent job or so many of the people would not have responded as if it was a real person sharing his own journal. I think the title clearly says ``Discovering Ali Hasan`` by Rehan Rizvi. The opening paragraph clearly states that the journal belongs to a college sophomore named Syed Ali Hasan Naqvi.

The idea first came to my mind about writing this story several years ago when one of my friends back then told me how he was confused about his relationship. When I finally did decide to write this, I clearly had a purpose in mind. I wanted to write about those young people whose circumstances have brought them onto a foreign soil where they`re going through a transformation of constantly defining themselves and trying to reconcile the culture they, or their parents

brought with them, and the culture that they are now part of. And since I live in the U.S., and I`m originally from Pakistan, it seemed logical for me to create a character to whome I could develop using my observations of the Pakistani community in the U.S., and hence `Ali Hasan.`

Obviously, one the most common problem faced by young people of ethnic backgrounds in U.S. is that of inter-cultural, inter-racial and inter-religious relationships and the disasterous results that most of them have ended with. I thought about what are some of the forces that would influence the thought process of someone who was interested in such a relationship. And the only format I could think of was a personal journal where this person could actually talk about everything, that a young person should think about, before making any decision of this magnititude.

It took me a little time before I sketched the rough outline of Ali Hasan`s character. But once I had done that, it became relatively easy, but still it was damn hard, and perhaps the story became cheesy because of it, to peer into the mind of a guy who`s probably is barely out of his teens. The rather ordinary and not exactly error-free writing of the journal enteries is intentional. I had to make it seem as if it was written by a young and an above-average college student who has yet to master anything, let alone writing. I must also admit that my own command of English language is itself questionable, as you all probably can tell, so it wasn`t really hard to piece together something that appeared very ordinary and still it would some how touch those who might go through a similar experience.

This story is actually an attempt on my part, and judging from some responses, perhaps a poor one, to connect with the young people and force them to contemplate a little about the consequences of their actions. I do have a bias and it shows in the choices that Ali Hasan made. Nevertheless, it does not at all try to limit the choices that

an individual has at any given time. That is why you would not see a clear and black & white picture of Ali Hasan`s convictions regarding his beliefs. He`s somewhat sure of his identity, a Pakistani-American and a Shia-Muslim, but he`s still got a lot to figure out. I intentionally let him appear like a confused, and in someone`s words, a neurotic young man.

But what`s important in the whole story, and which, incidentally, is the underlying theme, is to let Ali Hasan weigh his options and make his choices based on what ``he`` thought was right. It doesn`t necessarily exclude any other choices that he could have made. That is why even the ending conveys the sense of hesitation on Ali Hasan`s part. This is what I wanted to convey, that young people should at least go through a process of sorting out their priorities in life before venturing into any kind of relationship.

I hope this`ll make things a little bit more clear for the readers. Take care.

---Rehan

P.S. A suggestion to everyone who`s still addressing me as Ali Hasan or vice versa: Please go back and read it again. cheers!

Re: slink # 7

Very well said, Shandana. I too have to add my voice and say, ``O dear !``

re: (the self-deluding) ``Rules``

ishq per zoor nahiN, hae yeh vo aatish Ghalib
kay lagaayah na lagay, aur bujhay na banay

re: The dil-phaink ishaq in the story

If you want to make any headway in your `ambitions` with the opposite sex, you need to be cool, which, of course, you think you are, but in fact she can tell you are not.

Next time you go to see someone like that, first, masturbate three times so that you can drain out the snake venom which roars inside and so you have half a chance of acting `cool`. Remember, women don`t get a hard-on. When a man`s dick gets harder than his head, he`s as good as dead.

Second, resist the temptation of revealing all about yourself. Ask question and LISTEN.

Third, be the first one to call it a night. Don`t linger on.

And, yes, maybe you should listen to waheed. Got to drain that toxin which clouds the mind.

Goodspeed.

...SR

this is not good, yar. so many typos, grammatical errors, but above all, awkward, overly simplistic sentences and ideas. i couldn`t get past the first quarter of the piece.

how could this have managed to arouse all those deep emotions, feroze? (a short, simple answer will do yar).

Re: afrasiyab post # 9

Yeah, that was me! As I was saying, that article threw me a fast one and took me by suprise. The post was a ramb