Discovering Ali Hasan
Rehan Rizvi February 18, 1999
#17 Posted by rehanrizvi on February 20, 1999 9:13:43 am
Re: ALL
Thank you all for your comments, criticism and suggestions. I don`t claim to be a writer, I just try to write. And this is the first time I`ve seriously tried my hands on writing fiction. However, from the responses so far, I`ve concluded that I must`ve done a reasonably decent job or so many of the people would not have responded as if it was a real person sharing his own journal. I think the title clearly says ``Discovering Ali Hasan`` by Rehan Rizvi. The opening paragraph clearly states that the journal belongs to a college sophomore named Syed Ali Hasan Naqvi.
The idea first came to my mind about writing this story several years ago when one of my friends back then told me how he was confused about his relationship. When I finally did decide to write this, I clearly had a purpose in mind. I wanted to write about those young people whose circumstances have brought them onto a foreign soil where they`re going through a transformation of constantly defining themselves and trying to reconcile the culture they, or their parents
brought with them, and the culture that they are now part of. And since I live in the U.S., and I`m originally from Pakistan, it seemed logical for me to create a character to whome I could develop using my observations of the Pakistani community in the U.S., and hence `Ali Hasan.`
Obviously, one the most common problem faced by young people of ethnic backgrounds in U.S. is that of inter-cultural, inter-racial and inter-religious relationships and the disasterous results that most of them have ended with. I thought about what are some of the forces that would influence the thought process of someone who was interested in such a relationship. And the only format I could think of was a personal journal where this person could actually talk about everything, that a young person should think about, before making any decision of this magnititude.
It took me a little time before I sketched the rough outline of Ali Hasan`s character. But once I had done that, it became relatively easy, but still it was damn hard, and perhaps the story became cheesy because of it, to peer into the mind of a guy who`s probably is barely out of his teens. The rather ordinary and not exactly error-free writing of the journal enteries is intentional. I had to make it seem as if it was written by a young and an above-average college student who has yet to master anything, let alone writing. I must also admit that my own command of English language is itself questionable, as you all probably can tell, so it wasn`t really hard to piece together something that appeared very ordinary and still it would some how touch those who might go through a similar experience.
This story is actually an attempt on my part, and judging from some responses, perhaps a poor one, to connect with the young people and force them to contemplate a little about the consequences of their actions. I do have a bias and it shows in the choices that Ali Hasan made. Nevertheless, it does not at all try to limit the choices that
an individual has at any given time. That is why you would not see a clear and black & white picture of Ali Hasan`s convictions regarding his beliefs. He`s somewhat sure of his identity, a Pakistani-American and a Shia-Muslim, but he`s still got a lot to figure out. I intentionally let him appear like a confused, and in someone`s words, a neurotic young man.
But what`s important in the whole story, and which, incidentally, is the underlying theme, is to let Ali Hasan weigh his options and make his choices based on what ``he`` thought was right. It doesn`t necessarily exclude any other choices that he could have made. That is why even the ending conveys the sense of hesitation on Ali Hasan`s part. This is what I wanted to convey, that young people should at least go through a process of sorting out their priorities in life before venturing into any kind of relationship.
I hope this`ll make things a little bit more clear for the readers. Take care.
---Rehan
P.S. A suggestion to everyone who`s still addressing me as Ali Hasan or vice versa: Please go back and read it again. cheers!
Thank you all for your comments, criticism and suggestions. I don`t claim to be a writer, I just try to write. And this is the first time I`ve seriously tried my hands on writing fiction. However, from the responses so far, I`ve concluded that I must`ve done a reasonably decent job or so many of the people would not have responded as if it was a real person sharing his own journal. I think the title clearly says ``Discovering Ali Hasan`` by Rehan Rizvi. The opening paragraph clearly states that the journal belongs to a college sophomore named Syed Ali Hasan Naqvi.
The idea first came to my mind about writing this story several years ago when one of my friends back then told me how he was confused about his relationship. When I finally did decide to write this, I clearly had a purpose in mind. I wanted to write about those young people whose circumstances have brought them onto a foreign soil where they`re going through a transformation of constantly defining themselves and trying to reconcile the culture they, or their parents
brought with them, and the culture that they are now part of. And since I live in the U.S., and I`m originally from Pakistan, it seemed logical for me to create a character to whome I could develop using my observations of the Pakistani community in the U.S., and hence `Ali Hasan.`
Obviously, one the most common problem faced by young people of ethnic backgrounds in U.S. is that of inter-cultural, inter-racial and inter-religious relationships and the disasterous results that most of them have ended with. I thought about what are some of the forces that would influence the thought process of someone who was interested in such a relationship. And the only format I could think of was a personal journal where this person could actually talk about everything, that a young person should think about, before making any decision of this magnititude.
It took me a little time before I sketched the rough outline of Ali Hasan`s character. But once I had done that, it became relatively easy, but still it was damn hard, and perhaps the story became cheesy because of it, to peer into the mind of a guy who`s probably is barely out of his teens. The rather ordinary and not exactly error-free writing of the journal enteries is intentional. I had to make it seem as if it was written by a young and an above-average college student who has yet to master anything, let alone writing. I must also admit that my own command of English language is itself questionable, as you all probably can tell, so it wasn`t really hard to piece together something that appeared very ordinary and still it would some how touch those who might go through a similar experience.
This story is actually an attempt on my part, and judging from some responses, perhaps a poor one, to connect with the young people and force them to contemplate a little about the consequences of their actions. I do have a bias and it shows in the choices that Ali Hasan made. Nevertheless, it does not at all try to limit the choices that
an individual has at any given time. That is why you would not see a clear and black & white picture of Ali Hasan`s convictions regarding his beliefs. He`s somewhat sure of his identity, a Pakistani-American and a Shia-Muslim, but he`s still got a lot to figure out. I intentionally let him appear like a confused, and in someone`s words, a neurotic young man.
But what`s important in the whole story, and which, incidentally, is the underlying theme, is to let Ali Hasan weigh his options and make his choices based on what ``he`` thought was right. It doesn`t necessarily exclude any other choices that he could have made. That is why even the ending conveys the sense of hesitation on Ali Hasan`s part. This is what I wanted to convey, that young people should at least go through a process of sorting out their priorities in life before venturing into any kind of relationship.
I hope this`ll make things a little bit more clear for the readers. Take care.
---Rehan
P.S. A suggestion to everyone who`s still addressing me as Ali Hasan or vice versa: Please go back and read it again. cheers!
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#18 Posted by ferozk on February 20, 1999 3:49:56 pm
Re: ayaashi post # 16
Good question! I have no idea. I do not think that it was either the style or content, maybe the just the theme....anyways, it triggered a response!
Good question! I have no idea. I do not think that it was either the style or content, maybe the just the theme....anyways, it triggered a response!
#19 Posted by slink on February 21, 1999 4:28:57 am
dear rehan,
my apologies,having read over my response i realise i`ve been guilty of doing what i have detested in others i.e. confusing the voice of the character with that of the author. it wasn`t intentional..i didn`t actually think you were ali hasan..but still annoying.
my point has now evolved to..why would you want to waste what writing ability you have on such a noxious character? are all young pakistani men in their first year at college this immature? i dont think so. you did in a sense make this character appear lifelike for me, but only because i reacted blindly to certain `objectionable` notions he had.
as a writer, it`s very easy to get people to react, it`s much harder getting them to think in a way conducive to a free flow of ideas and (eventually) some kind of positive change. that is where your focus should be..not neccesarily all the time (write `nonsense` for every `serious` piece to keep yourself interested)..but certainly some of the time.
good luck!
shandana
my apologies,having read over my response i realise i`ve been guilty of doing what i have detested in others i.e. confusing the voice of the character with that of the author. it wasn`t intentional..i didn`t actually think you were ali hasan..but still annoying.
my point has now evolved to..why would you want to waste what writing ability you have on such a noxious character? are all young pakistani men in their first year at college this immature? i dont think so. you did in a sense make this character appear lifelike for me, but only because i reacted blindly to certain `objectionable` notions he had.
as a writer, it`s very easy to get people to react, it`s much harder getting them to think in a way conducive to a free flow of ideas and (eventually) some kind of positive change. that is where your focus should be..not neccesarily all the time (write `nonsense` for every `serious` piece to keep yourself interested)..but certainly some of the time.
good luck!
shandana
#20 Posted by SR on February 22, 1999 12:18:38 pm
Rehan:
It appears that the response Ali H`s journal got from some of us was a bit too strong. This only goes to demonstrate your remarkable success at creating a real-life character. Even though I could see that it was Ali H (a character), you`d made him so very real that, at least, I felt compelled to address HIM as if he were reading in person.
Poor Ali made me cringe. He invokes a gut reaction with his misguided, confused, immature, sexually-repressed and emotionally thwarted personality. Unfortunately, he is entirely too close to the actual reality of many young men from our part of the world. You painted a picture with photo-realism precision. It is obvious that you must have known similar personalities in real-life.
This may be a good place to explore some of the issues faced by our repressed young men. Much is said about the plight of our young women, but few have attempted to explore the utter de-linking of mental fantasy with objective reality that many of our young men are afflicted with.
Denial and ignorance of one`s feelings is a strong trait that is developed along with inculcation of confused values which come to clash with reality when young men are sent out in the world. Many mamma`s boys who utterly overestimate their manhood fall flat on their faces when reality hits. It creates personality problems and complexes and renders many incapable of ever having meaningful, satisfying and `safe` relationships with the opposite sex.
I apologize if my crude remarks in the earlier message were offensive. They were meant to be, but only for the purpose of triggering comments on this subject. Evidently, it wasn`t provocative enough: no body reacted.
Once again, I`m glad you`ve attempted to open up this Pendora`s box. I`m curious to see if people have any interest in exploring this thread.
...SR
It appears that the response Ali H`s journal got from some of us was a bit too strong. This only goes to demonstrate your remarkable success at creating a real-life character. Even though I could see that it was Ali H (a character), you`d made him so very real that, at least, I felt compelled to address HIM as if he were reading in person.
Poor Ali made me cringe. He invokes a gut reaction with his misguided, confused, immature, sexually-repressed and emotionally thwarted personality. Unfortunately, he is entirely too close to the actual reality of many young men from our part of the world. You painted a picture with photo-realism precision. It is obvious that you must have known similar personalities in real-life.
This may be a good place to explore some of the issues faced by our repressed young men. Much is said about the plight of our young women, but few have attempted to explore the utter de-linking of mental fantasy with objective reality that many of our young men are afflicted with.
Denial and ignorance of one`s feelings is a strong trait that is developed along with inculcation of confused values which come to clash with reality when young men are sent out in the world. Many mamma`s boys who utterly overestimate their manhood fall flat on their faces when reality hits. It creates personality problems and complexes and renders many incapable of ever having meaningful, satisfying and `safe` relationships with the opposite sex.
I apologize if my crude remarks in the earlier message were offensive. They were meant to be, but only for the purpose of triggering comments on this subject. Evidently, it wasn`t provocative enough: no body reacted.
Once again, I`m glad you`ve attempted to open up this Pendora`s box. I`m curious to see if people have any interest in exploring this thread.
...SR
#21 Posted by Zehra on February 22, 1999 1:29:47 pm
`When a man`s dick gets harder than his head, he`s as good as dead.`
i didnt think that this line was offensive in any way..crude yes, but offensive no..its good advice and many young desi men like our pal ali hasan here, should take heed...
being shia myself, it added just so much more for me to read of ali hasan`s pathetic attmepts at love. its sad really that these are the losers that my lot `must` choose from. i don`t think his being shia had anything to do with his being a loser however...most shairi, as beautiful as it is, is about unrequited love and how just a glimpse of this womans ankle is enough for some poor majnooN to get a hard on...`that` is our lot. enough bashing on those who cannot help but be mama`s boys and losers ( not that the two are synonmous).
lets talk about this thread that you bring up about desi boys and their abilities (or lack of) of handling love and sex. i am interested, from a womans persepctive to hear what is going on in the minds of young men when they need to deal with love, lust, desire, sex and women. i mean, it cant all be as bad as ali hasan? actually, i know for a fact its not..i do know `aik aath` murd log who can be pretty sauve and debonair...though im sure they practice in front of the mirror. just like male aneroxia, this topic has also not been discussed.
rizvi
i didnt think that this line was offensive in any way..crude yes, but offensive no..its good advice and many young desi men like our pal ali hasan here, should take heed...
being shia myself, it added just so much more for me to read of ali hasan`s pathetic attmepts at love. its sad really that these are the losers that my lot `must` choose from. i don`t think his being shia had anything to do with his being a loser however...most shairi, as beautiful as it is, is about unrequited love and how just a glimpse of this womans ankle is enough for some poor majnooN to get a hard on...`that` is our lot. enough bashing on those who cannot help but be mama`s boys and losers ( not that the two are synonmous).
lets talk about this thread that you bring up about desi boys and their abilities (or lack of) of handling love and sex. i am interested, from a womans persepctive to hear what is going on in the minds of young men when they need to deal with love, lust, desire, sex and women. i mean, it cant all be as bad as ali hasan? actually, i know for a fact its not..i do know `aik aath` murd log who can be pretty sauve and debonair...though im sure they practice in front of the mirror. just like male aneroxia, this topic has also not been discussed.
rizvi
#22 Posted by faraz on February 22, 1999 2:58:52 pm
Re Zehra and the Desi-Male-in-Love
You are quite right in your assessment of the desi-male`s abilities in Love. However, I think that although they are inept, thoroughly schoolboyish,etc etc, they do have above-average sincerity.
Also, I have seen a few ankles in my time...but alas they don`t do much for me ....and I have a pretty good imagination! (incidentally it was because of Hijab and burqas---that ankles became arousing to some desis....after all how much of a turn on is potato sack walking around? Can you picture a couple of desis sitting around talking about ``the one in the brown burqa she was so fine!?``...consequently any skin these poor guys could see became attractive)
And you can`t blame the desi fool; most of these guys do not have meaningful interaction with members of the opposite sex. What little they know of ishq, is derived from crude Indian movies (Taking a chick to the park to dance and sing, and change outfits a few times doesn`t exactly work).
At the end of the day, to differentiate between sex and love...requires some experience in both, and our society offers little chances of that. Interestingly though the desi male has adapted some very interesting mating rituals; including the phone-taar (I don`t think this happens many other countries)
And Pakistani girls aren`t exactly all that experienced, you have to promise most of them heaven and earth to get beyond the ankle-phase. While desi-guys have lust and love all mixed up, the korees can`t claim to be any better-----knowing no other conclusion or destination to a relationship (whether sexual or not) then a full-blown shaadi.
Faraz
ps. I agree desi guys aren`t, in general, all that, but only `aik aath`? Itnay Guy guzray hain hum? Say it ain`t so....
You are quite right in your assessment of the desi-male`s abilities in Love. However, I think that although they are inept, thoroughly schoolboyish,etc etc, they do have above-average sincerity.
Also, I have seen a few ankles in my time...but alas they don`t do much for me ....and I have a pretty good imagination! (incidentally it was because of Hijab and burqas---that ankles became arousing to some desis....after all how much of a turn on is potato sack walking around? Can you picture a couple of desis sitting around talking about ``the one in the brown burqa she was so fine!?``...consequently any skin these poor guys could see became attractive)
And you can`t blame the desi fool; most of these guys do not have meaningful interaction with members of the opposite sex. What little they know of ishq, is derived from crude Indian movies (Taking a chick to the park to dance and sing, and change outfits a few times doesn`t exactly work).
At the end of the day, to differentiate between sex and love...requires some experience in both, and our society offers little chances of that. Interestingly though the desi male has adapted some very interesting mating rituals; including the phone-taar (I don`t think this happens many other countries)
And Pakistani girls aren`t exactly all that experienced, you have to promise most of them heaven and earth to get beyond the ankle-phase. While desi-guys have lust and love all mixed up, the korees can`t claim to be any better-----knowing no other conclusion or destination to a relationship (whether sexual or not) then a full-blown shaadi.
Faraz
ps. I agree desi guys aren`t, in general, all that, but only `aik aath`? Itnay Guy guzray hain hum? Say it ain`t so....
#23 Posted by ferozk on February 22, 1999 7:56:34 pm
Re: Faraz post # 23
This reply is in response to your post to Zehra`s desi paramours!
Zehra is going to tear out my heart with a dull tea spoon for saying this, but what the hell....
Difference between love and sex is:
sex; when you intend to call her, but can`t remember her name!
love; telling her what you are thinking after sex!
This reply is in response to your post to Zehra`s desi paramours!
Zehra is going to tear out my heart with a dull tea spoon for saying this, but what the hell....
Difference between love and sex is:
sex; when you intend to call her, but can`t remember her name!
love; telling her what you are thinking after sex!
#24 Posted by slink on February 23, 1999 5:02:12 am
re `why pakistani men have to have prim and proper wives`..
perhaps because
a) thats what their mammas told them
b) they feel threatened by a more experienced woman, or even just a woman who`s ideas are different
c) what are they looking for precisely? a child carrier, a water buffalo, so they look for those qualities which they think will make the subject a good mother..wide hips etc..someone relatively docile yet strong who can survive great trauma without question..someone who is not dumb but obedient..someone who doesn`t want a great share in decision making even though she is obviously capable of it (running a house isn`t easy)..
all this, and they also secretly want someone who likes to be on top. baicharay..such confusion..how much easier it would be if they weren`t so scared.
re young desi men in love...
they moon a lot. and i`d like to challenge the assertion that it is the woman who is dramatic and gets `intense`. we`ve seen quite a few cases of `young man gets angry..shoots woman who jilted him` here..doesn`t that qualify as dramatic?
to be fair in the end it doesn`t come down to man or woman, desi or otherwise, it comes down to the quality of human beings this nation is producing.and it just seems to be going down down dowwwwwwnnnnn.
shandana
perhaps because
a) thats what their mammas told them
b) they feel threatened by a more experienced woman, or even just a woman who`s ideas are different
c) what are they looking for precisely? a child carrier, a water buffalo, so they look for those qualities which they think will make the subject a good mother..wide hips etc..someone relatively docile yet strong who can survive great trauma without question..someone who is not dumb but obedient..someone who doesn`t want a great share in decision making even though she is obviously capable of it (running a house isn`t easy)..
all this, and they also secretly want someone who likes to be on top. baicharay..such confusion..how much easier it would be if they weren`t so scared.
re young desi men in love...
they moon a lot. and i`d like to challenge the assertion that it is the woman who is dramatic and gets `intense`. we`ve seen quite a few cases of `young man gets angry..shoots woman who jilted him` here..doesn`t that qualify as dramatic?
to be fair in the end it doesn`t come down to man or woman, desi or otherwise, it comes down to the quality of human beings this nation is producing.and it just seems to be going down down dowwwwwwnnnnn.
shandana
#25 Posted by faraz on February 23, 1999 8:37:57 am
Re Slink, Amber and the ``Prim & Proper Wife``
I represent the typical desi male about as much as you guys probably represent the typical desi Khattoon but in the interest of all those desi guys silently observing I would like to make some observations:
1. There is absolutely nothing wrong in wanting a ``proper`` wife. There I said it...taking a wife is probably the single most important decision in a desi male`s life, you can`t blame him for wanting someone that is presentable. (And that does not preclude you from getting to know that person well before the shadi.) Last time I checked good looking, proper women could be just as interesting and intelligent as others.
2. ``Mammaa`s boys``- Both of you are very critical about how much control the mamma`s have over their son`s choice of a wife and indeed his tastes. This is such a woman thing. The Saas-Bahu relationship is very tense and is usually fought over the right to control the poor guy. And your primal need to compete with the Saas is reflected in your posts! And....well come to think of it....all these Mammas were jawan desi korees like yourselves back in the day. What is it about motherhood that transforms the desi woman in to one of those ``mamma`s`` that controls and manipulates their son`s lives? Are you guys going to turn out any different?
3. Conceded the guys can be just as juzbaatee as the women, desis like to be over-emotional as chacha Ghalib points out:
Ruggon may dorthay phirnay key hum naheen qayil
Jo ankh he say na tupkey, vo lahu kya hai?
Ferozk
Sex will get you through times without love, better then love will get you through times without sex.
I represent the typical desi male about as much as you guys probably represent the typical desi Khattoon but in the interest of all those desi guys silently observing I would like to make some observations:
1. There is absolutely nothing wrong in wanting a ``proper`` wife. There I said it...taking a wife is probably the single most important decision in a desi male`s life, you can`t blame him for wanting someone that is presentable. (And that does not preclude you from getting to know that person well before the shadi.) Last time I checked good looking, proper women could be just as interesting and intelligent as others.
2. ``Mammaa`s boys``- Both of you are very critical about how much control the mamma`s have over their son`s choice of a wife and indeed his tastes. This is such a woman thing. The Saas-Bahu relationship is very tense and is usually fought over the right to control the poor guy. And your primal need to compete with the Saas is reflected in your posts! And....well come to think of it....all these Mammas were jawan desi korees like yourselves back in the day. What is it about motherhood that transforms the desi woman in to one of those ``mamma`s`` that controls and manipulates their son`s lives? Are you guys going to turn out any different?
3. Conceded the guys can be just as juzbaatee as the women, desis like to be over-emotional as chacha Ghalib points out:
Ruggon may dorthay phirnay key hum naheen qayil
Jo ankh he say na tupkey, vo lahu kya hai?
Ferozk
Sex will get you through times without love, better then love will get you through times without sex.
#26 Posted by jawahara on February 23, 1999 12:55:40 pm
Here are my thoughts on some of the issues raised by Faraz in particular.
Yes, good looking women can be interesting etc. Yet, for some reason, these same desi Romeos also
secretly dream of some kick-ass woman who is transformed into the ideal bahu in front of their saas and saur. I would like to say, however, that it is indeed the right of a man to want a girl he can fit into a nice grid, as it is, for women.
The whole concept of arranged marriage is too much of a barter/economic exchange for my taste. Women only look to see what a suitor earns, and how much mom and dad can spend on her jewelry. And men expect women who are totally gorgeous as well as modern yet traditional, educated but willing to stay home and massage mother-in-law`s legs etc.
Yes I am aware I am painting in broad strokes, and so there are plenty of exceptions to this. But as a system, this is quite right on, I think.
Furthermore, I think most desi marriages are quite unhappy. The lack of divorces do not happy marriages make. Instead both partners make each other`s life miserable or are just indifferent to the other. Mothers, who have no other available emotional output, give all to the sons (usually). Therefore, the new bride is seen as an interloper. Some other woman more important in Raja beta`s life.
The purpose of my tirade was not to point fingers at any persons. Rather, it stems from the distaste I feel for the entire system of *choosing * brides and grooms, with little regard to knowing the actual qualities husbands and wives need to have a happy and successful relationship.
That`s all for now, I guess.:-) Sorry for the typos. Gotta run.
Yes, good looking women can be interesting etc. Yet, for some reason, these same desi Romeos also
secretly dream of some kick-ass woman who is transformed into the ideal bahu in front of their saas and saur. I would like to say, however, that it is indeed the right of a man to want a girl he can fit into a nice grid, as it is, for women.
The whole concept of arranged marriage is too much of a barter/economic exchange for my taste. Women only look to see what a suitor earns, and how much mom and dad can spend on her jewelry. And men expect women who are totally gorgeous as well as modern yet traditional, educated but willing to stay home and massage mother-in-law`s legs etc.
Yes I am aware I am painting in broad strokes, and so there are plenty of exceptions to this. But as a system, this is quite right on, I think.
Furthermore, I think most desi marriages are quite unhappy. The lack of divorces do not happy marriages make. Instead both partners make each other`s life miserable or are just indifferent to the other. Mothers, who have no other available emotional output, give all to the sons (usually). Therefore, the new bride is seen as an interloper. Some other woman more important in Raja beta`s life.
The purpose of my tirade was not to point fingers at any persons. Rather, it stems from the distaste I feel for the entire system of *choosing * brides and grooms, with little regard to knowing the actual qualities husbands and wives need to have a happy and successful relationship.
That`s all for now, I guess.:-) Sorry for the typos. Gotta run.
#27 Posted by faraz on February 24, 1999 12:30:26 am
Re: Jawaraha and the arranged-marriage-boogie man
``The whole concept of arranged marriage is too much of a barter/economic exchange for my taste``
In my opinion, the statement would equally true even without the word arranged in it. I have never found much rationale behind marriage, not that I think it is a bad insitution. Why do people get married if it is not because of cultural/tradional conditioning?
``Furthermore, I think most desi marriages are quite unhappy``
I have to say I disagree with that. In general (and as you have already pointed out we are painting very broad strokes here), both desi marriages and desi families are stronger then western ones and not just because of the taboo of divorce. I am no fan of the arrangedness of desi marriages but I have to conceed that their success rate is too high as to merely be explained by the presence of certain cultural taboos. In the U.S. a 50% divorce rate (of all new marriages) is something that calls in to question the long term viability of the institution itself.
And happiness in a marriage, not that we can measure such a thing, is probably more plentiful in desi marriages then in western ones. What ticks off a lot of people, especially westernized desis, is that the ``Ali Ahsun``s of the world, having never had a serious relationship in their life upon reaching the mid twenties, go to their (now infamous) mothers and ask that a wife be found for him.
Most of the time, if the guy has a halfway decent job or family background, he ends up getting a girl he could have never have gotten if he had to compete in the open market place (a la western style dating). Most of the time the girl is too inexperienced to know the difference. But anyway they get married...and this the part that really ticks off the ABCDs..they seem to be happy!(I know it doesn`t make any sense but it happens, maybe because the couple ``don`t know any better`` , but it does happen). After all if you subscribe to the western concept of true love leading to happiness, you should never have such happiness in any arranged marriage simply because the marriage did not arise out of true love.
Incidentally, do you realize the kind of chaos that would ensue in desidom if all these ``desi romeos`` were told by their mothers that they had to find wives for themselves! Most would imply not be able to do it!
At the end of the day both a perfect marriage and true love remain unattainable for most people.... that is if they even exist at all..... but it is fun to what them try,
Faraz
``The whole concept of arranged marriage is too much of a barter/economic exchange for my taste``
In my opinion, the statement would equally true even without the word arranged in it. I have never found much rationale behind marriage, not that I think it is a bad insitution. Why do people get married if it is not because of cultural/tradional conditioning?
``Furthermore, I think most desi marriages are quite unhappy``
I have to say I disagree with that. In general (and as you have already pointed out we are painting very broad strokes here), both desi marriages and desi families are stronger then western ones and not just because of the taboo of divorce. I am no fan of the arrangedness of desi marriages but I have to conceed that their success rate is too high as to merely be explained by the presence of certain cultural taboos. In the U.S. a 50% divorce rate (of all new marriages) is something that calls in to question the long term viability of the institution itself.
And happiness in a marriage, not that we can measure such a thing, is probably more plentiful in desi marriages then in western ones. What ticks off a lot of people, especially westernized desis, is that the ``Ali Ahsun``s of the world, having never had a serious relationship in their life upon reaching the mid twenties, go to their (now infamous) mothers and ask that a wife be found for him.
Most of the time, if the guy has a halfway decent job or family background, he ends up getting a girl he could have never have gotten if he had to compete in the open market place (a la western style dating). Most of the time the girl is too inexperienced to know the difference. But anyway they get married...and this the part that really ticks off the ABCDs..they seem to be happy!(I know it doesn`t make any sense but it happens, maybe because the couple ``don`t know any better`` , but it does happen). After all if you subscribe to the western concept of true love leading to happiness, you should never have such happiness in any arranged marriage simply because the marriage did not arise out of true love.
Incidentally, do you realize the kind of chaos that would ensue in desidom if all these ``desi romeos`` were told by their mothers that they had to find wives for themselves! Most would imply not be able to do it!
At the end of the day both a perfect marriage and true love remain unattainable for most people.... that is if they even exist at all..... but it is fun to what them try,
Faraz
#28 Posted by OMAR1974 on February 24, 1999 12:30:26 am
Jawahara :
Hey Jewels!
You must have graduated from NYU by now. Funny bumping into you here. Perhaps not surprising though. Drop me an e-mail for the heck of it at OMAR1974@aol.com.
P.S Guess what, The last time you saw me in Bobst basement, i knew. You thought i didn`t, but i did. That old joke is definitely on you pal.
OMAR
Hey Jewels!
You must have graduated from NYU by now. Funny bumping into you here. Perhaps not surprising though. Drop me an e-mail for the heck of it at OMAR1974@aol.com.
P.S Guess what, The last time you saw me in Bobst basement, i knew. You thought i didn`t, but i did. That old joke is definitely on you pal.
OMAR
#29 Posted by OMAR1974 on February 24, 1999 1:08:48 am
Re: Shandana, Amber, Zehra, jawahara, SR & FerozK
I personally think you guyz started an interesting conversation about Desi male`s expectations and i hate to disagree with you all, particularly the ladies (perhaps they are right about 98% of the confused Desi boys) but there is a great deal more to growing up, even falling in love than this b.s that Rehan Rizvi has concocted thru the lens of Ali Hasan. Rehan my friend, you know NOTHING about either LOVE or LUST or the power of unbounded passion of ANY KIND. Like I said the ending is all wrong, this fool Ali Hassan does not even attempt to obtain love, he lack both a real heart and soul.
I wrote something that is the perfect counter to your piece just a couple of weeks ago. I somehow doubt that Chowk will have the guts to publish it, but it paints a very different picture of a young desi male than you have painted here thru the eyes of Ali Hassan.
ZEHRA : Check your hotmail account. I sent you a copy (I couldn`t resist after reading your comments here about wanting to know what is really on the minds of young desi males today and what some of them really want in a woman).:)
Its also unlikely to leave the image of desi females in a very flattering light.
OMAR MIRZA
I personally think you guyz started an interesting conversation about Desi male`s expectations and i hate to disagree with you all, particularly the ladies (perhaps they are right about 98% of the confused Desi boys) but there is a great deal more to growing up, even falling in love than this b.s that Rehan Rizvi has concocted thru the lens of Ali Hasan. Rehan my friend, you know NOTHING about either LOVE or LUST or the power of unbounded passion of ANY KIND. Like I said the ending is all wrong, this fool Ali Hassan does not even attempt to obtain love, he lack both a real heart and soul.
I wrote something that is the perfect counter to your piece just a couple of weeks ago. I somehow doubt that Chowk will have the guts to publish it, but it paints a very different picture of a young desi male than you have painted here thru the eyes of Ali Hassan.
ZEHRA : Check your hotmail account. I sent you a copy (I couldn`t resist after reading your comments here about wanting to know what is really on the minds of young desi males today and what some of them really want in a woman).:)
Its also unlikely to leave the image of desi females in a very flattering light.
OMAR MIRZA
#30 Posted by jawahara on February 24, 1999 7:23:45 am
Omar: Mmmmm...you must have the wrong Jawahara, because I never went to NYU.Hope you find your ``Jewels, `` (any pun was totally unexpected, though irresistible, sorry, sorry, sorry).
Faraz, if success and happiness of a complex relationship like marriage is measured by an absence of divorce, then yes, arranged marriages are totally successful. However, in this day and age, many people look for more than a bread-winner, and a bread maker who sits at home. Companionship, friendship, love, support etc. etc. Are certainly what I looked for in marriage, and it s been 5 wonderful years so far. And I have closely observed other couples who are perfectly happy as well, and did not get married because of any pressures. But then I guess I and they broke most every rule there was. Essentially if you want something wonderfully different you have to take wonderfully huge chances.
So, yes, a lot of people do get married due to cultural/traditional conditioning because they are given no choices, and because of the contingent of harrassers that sprout once young men and women start advancing to undesirable ages. And because they are fed with the fear of evil ``love,`` marriages, and a lack of belief in their own abilities of discernment.
Match-makers look for (as stated in my previous post) superficial things like looks and money (which are important I ll grant), but they never look at personality types, what each person thinks of and expects from marriage. The list goes on.
Also, if all the good sons out there cannot take the biggest decision of their life, i.e. who to spend their life with, perhaps they are not mature enough to be husbands and fathers anyway.
For whoever had problems with Ali Hasan, I think he is the product of all the things I`ve mentioned above. Never seeing women as individual people and getting swayed by a pretty face enough to avow undying love stems from the aspects of society described above, I think.
That s all for now. Over and out
Faraz, if success and happiness of a complex relationship like marriage is measured by an absence of divorce, then yes, arranged marriages are totally successful. However, in this day and age, many people look for more than a bread-winner, and a bread maker who sits at home. Companionship, friendship, love, support etc. etc. Are certainly what I looked for in marriage, and it s been 5 wonderful years so far. And I have closely observed other couples who are perfectly happy as well, and did not get married because of any pressures. But then I guess I and they broke most every rule there was. Essentially if you want something wonderfully different you have to take wonderfully huge chances.
So, yes, a lot of people do get married due to cultural/traditional conditioning because they are given no choices, and because of the contingent of harrassers that sprout once young men and women start advancing to undesirable ages. And because they are fed with the fear of evil ``love,`` marriages, and a lack of belief in their own abilities of discernment.
Match-makers look for (as stated in my previous post) superficial things like looks and money (which are important I ll grant), but they never look at personality types, what each person thinks of and expects from marriage. The list goes on.
Also, if all the good sons out there cannot take the biggest decision of their life, i.e. who to spend their life with, perhaps they are not mature enough to be husbands and fathers anyway.
For whoever had problems with Ali Hasan, I think he is the product of all the things I`ve mentioned above. Never seeing women as individual people and getting swayed by a pretty face enough to avow undying love stems from the aspects of society described above, I think.
That s all for now. Over and out
#31 Posted by faraz on February 24, 1999 8:25:24 am
re: Amber reply 29
Believe me I have no need to protect the image of the desi male. I was just trying to provide a male perspective on these things. After all, ``we`` were all being dismissed as Mama`s boys and only ``aik aaath` were considered smooth. Puhlease! Not that I give a damn, but it is a tad hypocritcal to talk about the abysmal state of desi romance, and blame it only on the guys. It takes two to (or as in most desi cases not to) tango my dear.
Regarding the saas-bahu thing; I think you miss my point. I doubt that the problem exculsively lies with either party, as a male all I can say is I wouldn`t want to listen to it from either side. Work it out.
``We are all prim and proper girls but when someone is expecting you to fulfil requirements a to z, then the question is Mr. how about fulfilling mine before that``
When did I say that`s not important? Don`t write me off as one of those guys please.
kab mujhako aiteraaf-e-muhabbat na thaa ``Faraz``
kab main ney kahaa thaa sazaaen mujhe na do?
Faraz
ps. By the way, I`m not married so don`t think this is coming from experience.
Believe me I have no need to protect the image of the desi male. I was just trying to provide a male perspective on these things. After all, ``we`` were all being dismissed as Mama`s boys and only ``aik aaath` were considered smooth. Puhlease! Not that I give a damn, but it is a tad hypocritcal to talk about the abysmal state of desi romance, and blame it only on the guys. It takes two to (or as in most desi cases not to) tango my dear.
Regarding the saas-bahu thing; I think you miss my point. I doubt that the problem exculsively lies with either party, as a male all I can say is I wouldn`t want to listen to it from either side. Work it out.
``We are all prim and proper girls but when someone is expecting you to fulfil requirements a to z, then the question is Mr. how about fulfilling mine before that``
When did I say that`s not important? Don`t write me off as one of those guys please.
kab mujhako aiteraaf-e-muhabbat na thaa ``Faraz``
kab main ney kahaa thaa sazaaen mujhe na do?
Faraz
ps. By the way, I`m not married so don`t think this is coming from experience.
#32 Posted by BG on February 24, 1999 8:26:17 am
re amber
i like the way you have inserted that poem at the end. makes the point well. but for the line
``My face is my dowry sir.``
i would change it to:
My brain is my fortune sir, she said.
cheers :)
i like the way you have inserted that poem at the end. makes the point well. but for the line
``My face is my dowry sir.``
i would change it to:
My brain is my fortune sir, she said.
cheers :)
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