Denis Halliday on Iraq

``People are responsible for the actions of their governments, especially in a democracy, but I believe, even in a dictatorship.``

Adnan sahib - you have here used the very same argument used by the American government and its cronies - the idea of a population being responsible for its government`s actions. Are in therefore advocating a continuation of the murder of 5 to 6 thousand children every month because they share responsibility for Saddam Hussain`s deeds?

The amount of socio-cultural penetration and integration between the state apparatus and the general population in western countries, particularly the US is far beyond what exists in developing countries, even ``totalitarian`` states such as Saddam Hussain`s. Most people in such countries go about their daily lives without the activities of the state affecting them. At the same time, what they can do to affect the state`s policies and activities is very, very limited. It is not merely the case of a democracy vs. a non-democratic form of government, but socio-cultural institutions have not formed for the average person to participate in the activities of the state. Even then, look at the extreme hostility of the press in Egypt, Jordan, Iran and several other Middle Eastern countries towards American-directed policies towards the US. Look at the `terrorist` bombings in Saudi Arabia - along with rumblings of discontent which have forced the Saudi government to declare that it will not allow further US strikes against Iraq to be launched from its territory. I am not a fan of these governments at all, and the point about their complicity in all of this is well taken - but even they are no longer following the blind, vicious, inhuman policies which even the ``liberals`` in the American government so avidly advocate.

Lets be clear about this, it is America and its ``junior partner`` the UK which is directly responsible for the murder for over a million Iraqi civilians.

PS- I read the other day that the radiation levels in water supplies and agricultural products of southern Iraqi cities such as Basra are as high as if not actually higher than radiation levels in Hiroshima after WWII due to the depleted uranium ammunition used by the US and UK forces - of course medical equipment to deal with this is hard to come by.

All the best to Mr. Halliday for sticking to
his beliefs.
Iraq is a fine example of a brutal dictator
using his people as cannon fodder.
It is also an example of the use of the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights as toilet paper.

Thanks Adnan

Ras

Re: Veeresh #7

Friend, I hate to disagree with you, but there is never going to be another Vietnam. The American folly in Vietnam was mitigated by a lack of political thought reinforcing its military operations against the Viet Minh. The Americans never understood the nature of that war; they mistook a nationalist movement as a communist inspired strategy, within the perceptions of the Domino Theory, and hence, formulated the wrong political policies to combat the Viet Minh.

Since the fall of Vietnam, the American politics, of deploying United States combat troops, have always resisted what is refered to as a ``mission creep``. The Americans will not deploy their troops without a clear cut mission objective and the duration of deployment will only last till the mission objectives are achieved.

Consequently, the Americans, even before they commit troops in a potential crisis, are thinking about their ``exist strategy`` and this automatically precludes any open-ended commitments. Hence, no more Vietnams.

I don`t know how long it will take the ``bay-ghairat`` muslim leaders to come to their senses. if they think they are so weak, they should relinquish charge and let real muslims rule.... i just hope the revolutions that are going to occur in muslim countries like egypt and my pakistan will not be as bloody as i think they will be............

Comes back to the same old problem: why are we then taking it from the American Government? All over the world, and in every context, it is the American Government which tries to force its way. Maybe another Vietnam . . .

Thank you Adnan, for keeping this terrible human tragedy in the news.

No compassionate person can fail to come to the conclusion that these sanctions are immoral, inhuman, and criminal. The United States is responsible for hundreds of thousands of needless deaths of innocent people. But let`s also not forget the equally grotesque behavior of Saddam Hussain towards his own people, who every day manages to reach new heights of atrocity. There is the killing last week of Ayotollah Sadr alongwith his two sons, for the simple crime of organizing a congregation in a mosque!

Btw, I think Mr. Halliday, meant to say ``water-borne typhoid``, not typhus which is a totally different disease. Because of the breakdown in the water and sewage system, even many of Saddam`s palaces are in knee-deep sewage, and a huge epidemic of typhoid is raging.

A

Re: BG and Adnan Lawai

I was going to avoid this discussion on sanctions, because I have already stated what I think of sanctions and secondly, I have no interests to tango with BG on this issue. Again!

Incidently, did you people realize that sanctions or in its older version, a blockade, is considered an act of war. According to the corpus of Admirality Law, to which the United States is a party, it is illegal to impose sanctions on country which indirectly restricts that country`s freedom to enage in trade with a third party. The idea of imposing sanctions is againt intent of the United Nations` founding charter, because by imposing sanctions, the internal politics of a nation is being influenced.

My only problem with the sanctions regime is that, though it is slowly being reconsidered, they have no sun-set provisions in them. Also, sanctions are a cost effective way, for the American politicans, to pretend to be doing something while avoiding making hard choices. The true nature of sanctions is political and most American imposed sanctions are instituted to appease domestic interests than to influence American foreign policy; the American trade embargo on Cuba being an excellent example.

As to the conspiracy of silence with which Iraq`s neighbors have greeted the sanctions, it would be beneficial to realize why they are so silent in their protests against sanctions. Turkey is not going to say anything, because it owes Uncle Sam a favor for helping it catch the Kurdish rebel leader. Kuwait is silent on the matter, because it getting, along with Saudi Arabia, huge monies for allowing the deployment of American troops and all dead Iraqi babies aside, these two nations are not interested in irking the source of that revenue - United States. The Gulf States; they are making money by offering entertainment to the American military personnel stationed in Saudi Arbaia.

Like the line from the movie Godfather said, ``nothing personal, this is just business``. It is all about the money; who has it and who wants it.

Re: bg

Why am I amazed? Because countries such as Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Iran, Jordan and other Gulf countries have a humanitarian tragedy taking place in their own backyards. Terrible things are happening to their Muslim and Arab brothers and sisters in Iraq. In response, for example, a third of all money that Iraq gets as part of its Oil for Food program goes for reparation of war damages to its rich neighbours.
This from money which is clearly not enough to sustain even basic services.

There has been some criticism of the U.S. hard line against Iraq from these countries, but as you say, at this point it is ineffectual and largely symbolic.

I also seriously doubt that someone like Denis Halliday, Ramsey Clark or other people with unpopular ideas can reach the general populace in these countries. Even if they could, it is unlikely that it would translate into real, bold action by the govenments of these countries, without the blessing of the powers that be.

People are responsible for the actions of their govenments, especially in a democracy, but I believe, even in a dictatorship. True, the general populace in the Middle East is not as empowered as their American counterparts. But those who are themselves not being suppressed, and have a reasonable standard of life, and there are plenty such people in that region, can do a lot. I don`t see them doing much.

Silence is complicity, especially if the victim is your neighbour.

re adnan

``Good point about the complicity of the Muslims, Wasiq. The leadership and populations of those countries are as much to blame as the Americans, perhaps even more.``

i agree with wasiq on the complicity of other muslim governments. but would really think about blaming the populations of muslim countries. as far as i know, none of the ``people`` (very distinct from the corrupt, spineless governments) of any muslim nation (other than the gulf states) supported either the war or support the sanctions. even the governments who originally supported the war, have been distancing themselves from the continued bombing and have been asking for the lifting of sanctions in the UN general assembley. unfortunately, this UN body which has representation from the entire world, has no teeth. meanwhile, the US keeps pushing the sanctions through in the security council (which is just an exclusive, undemocratic, big boys club) with growing resistance from france, russia and china (of course, one would expect nothing other than lap dog behaviour from the UK).

make no mistake: the US government bears the MOST responsibility for the bombings and the damage and death from sanctions.

``It is quite sad and amazing though, that protests in the U.S. probably have a much greater chance of producing results than in these countries....``

why are you amazed? it is self-evident that the source of the punitive, criminal, immoral sanctions and bombings is the US. of course its people should protest their governments actions.

Good point about the complicity of the Muslims, Wasiq. The leadership and populations of those countries are as much to blame as the Americans, perhaps even more. It is quite sad and amazing though, that protests in the U.S. probably have a much greater chance of producing results than in these countries....