Balkan Tragedy: A Re-enactment of the 1971 Genocide in Bangladesh

Re: Jamal.

War is tragic. I often wonder how far accountability can be taken up for actions committed during war. What else but brutality can you expect from all the participants during a war .? Which in turn brings about the question of the rationality of judging war time criminals and war crimes. ? And how far back can we go while we do this ? Can we now sit together and label all the red coats as war criminals or all the early settlers of the american continent as war criminals, or all the early indian muslim emperors as war criminals . This act of digging back into the past has to stop somewhere. Me, i would prefer to look into the future and deal with POTENTIAL WAR CRIMINALS than those of the past. Those who preach war, talk of nuking someone else, those who goebbelize war propaganda, those who are hate mongering and spreading canards about another nation are the ones who need to be tried , not those who participated in war some 25 years back. Like it or not, cold blooded murder of civilians, rape, pillaging and depraved acts are all but part of war. To avoid war crimes we need to first avoid war.

And in the above, i actually do support our resident shakespeare turned rambo. In fact an earlier posting of mine did support Z A Khan`s position. What amused me was the attitude this youngster is carrying on his head at this day and this age. ? But then that is a different story fit for another day.

Rishi

Re: Omar1947

Yeah, Yeah.

Rishi

While Bengalis ask for war crimes trials for the period 1971 in East Pakistan, which they call Occupied Bangladesh, how about if Pakistanis start to ask for war crimes trials of Indian soldiers in Indian Occupied Kashmir for Human rights violations over the past decade? If Rishi has any arguments against my proposal, the logic applies equally to the East Pakistan (Occupied Bangladesh) 1971 situation. Go ahead, I want to hear why there should be no war crimes trials in IOK (Indian Occupied Kashmir).

Btw, Sigalph, your comments amuse me. Maybe we`ll meet in court some day! Or a law school convention :) I already have my reccomendations, thanks, won`t be troubling you, or any Indian or Bengali profs for one anytime in this lifetime.:)

Wormwood Sigalph. Wormwood. Think on it.:)

Cheers,

To OMAR1974 Reply#133 1nd 134

Thanks a lot Omar for your reply.

Thanks for taking my comment about intellectual level lightly. I never meant to say what I said there, and the sentence was phrased wrong by me in a hurry. you should replace that ``low enough``with ``high enough`` because that is what I intended.

I think I cant compete with you in legal technialties as you are a future lawyer and I am basically a person dealing with technology, and I also dont intend to compete with you in this regard.

As for your threat for law suit etc, I think there will be enough Bangladeshis willing to give you a fight, as and when necessary. I am a neutral observer as far as this matter goes.

Inspite of your reply, you didnt still answer some questions raised by me. Never mind, I can anticipate your response following the pattern of your previous replies.

As for your offer of saving our lives, I am grateful to you for that. But along with that I would like to state that we Indians are more than capable of protecting our lives, so your offer can oly be reciprocated by us,not accepted unilaterally.

I can judge from your response that you are really enraged by the case made by some people against your uncle. I can understand your anguish, in light of the fact that you consider your uncle to be innocent. But having said that I should also state that you threatening other responders by punches and bullets etc is unwarranted.

If you want to win the debate, then present your case through words,not byintimidating others by threats of physical and other harm.

One last thing, India and Indians are not as evil as you are brainwashed to believe they are. I donot claim we are morality personified, but we are only as much selfish and opportunistic as ny other nation in the world. The world doesnot run on morality. As for invading East Pak, there were several motives, but if we consider only the motive of breaking a hostile nation, then also India did what Pakistan would do if there was turmoil in any part of India comparable to east Pak. So you are not on a morally superior ground, so please dont preach us.

Thanks for your ``cilized`` response and I hope I will continue getting civil responses from you. I hope we can be friends and apologies if I have said something that hurt you.

Your friend

Satyavadi.

With that kind of attitude towards gratutious violence of which I am sure many on this forum will keep record, Omar will be hard pressed to get into any state bar. After all not too many bar boards are eager to let someone who wants to ``bash heads`` sit for their exam. I know because I have written enough recommendations for law schools and some of my students are in fairly prestigious law schools.

Just as the last alleged Nazi criminals are being tried after fifty years, Pakistan`s alleged war criminals will not go scot free. No amount of India bashing, as just as it often sounds, and no amount of legal threats will change the course of history.

Could we please read what khokan has to say in
its entirety? This has happened to me in the past
too so I hope that this posting issue is going to
get resolved. Hey, if Omar420 can keep getting
through, then why not Khokan?

Ras

A final thought:

To Satyavadi, Rishi, other Indians and Bengalis

etc:

You should not forget that the same hands that are more than capable of punching you back, pulling a trigger to shoot back at you, drafting a brief for a lawsuit, and flipping the pages of history books and Shakespearean plays, are also capable of being extended to save your own lives one day.

regards

Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

When the wind is southerly, i know a hawk from a handsaw.:)

Dear Satyavadi,

I think I already named the third state in 1947 in my prior post. As for your intellectual level joke :). I am 25, and will be taking the Bar exam SOON ENOUGH. Maybe too soon for Jamal Hasan and Chowk’s liking! :) So they better take me seriously because I mean business, and the statute of limitations on libel ain’t running out anytime soon. The only `games` I know how to play, and enjoy playing, involve suing real people and real corporations, and REAL $$$ signs. A lawsuit can become a real pain in the neck with continually mounting legal costs, and unending litigation half way across the continent from where you happen to reside in the hands of a determined lawyer. And this brings me to the real reason why I mentioned I`m Z.A Khan`s nephew, because he won`t have any legal costs in pusuing a case for libel. This is not meant to be a joke. Do you happen to know what the price (the going rate) of a man`s honor is? I suggest Chowk`s editors and Jamal Hasan think about that one for starters. It is one of the last opportunities the parties have to issue a retraction and an unqualified apology to Brig. Z.A Khan.

Personally, I think India owes us from 1947. And that is the root of the problem. If its not solved, it festers. If Pakistan and India had good relations, India would not necessarily have invaded East Pakistan in 1971. East Pakistan could have become Bangladesh thru peaceful means, Kissinger’s diplomacy was aimed at bringing about this result. Pakistan did not cleanse itself of virtually all Hindus, anymore than India cleansed itself of Muslims in 1947. Think about that one, and in the context of communal rioting. The trains of death (Khushwant Singh wrote a good book, ‘Train to Pakistan’, they made a movie in English recently, I haven’t seen it yet). I discussed Kashmir, Goa, Junadgah etc in the context of the (non existent or hypocritical) principles of Indian foreign policy, (which does not mean I am saying India did wrong in taking Goa in 1963 at all) only to show their selective and hypocritical application as a PATTERN in various situations. Read Carefully. And btw, my views are not really far out, they represent 99% of Pakistanis` views. Good will begets good will. But India has always played the regional school yard bully from DAY 1. And the only way to deal with a bully, who is basically a coward with bigger muscle, is by knocking his teeth out.

Regards, (Civility also begets Civility)

Omar

Re: Rishi`s Comments on Kashmir

FIRST CAREFULLY READ #128 By Omar an analysis of Indian foreign policy duplicity

Rishi says:-- I did not defend India`s annexation of any state. My issue is India annexed all the states including kashmir with the consent of the people (majority ). With kashmir we have a unfinished business of a plebiscite. Pakistan screwed this up by occupying another part of kashmir. If you want to talk for the kashmiris. First liberate your part of kashmir and make it into a seperate country or conduct a UN sponsored Plebiscite there. Or if you want to adhere to UN resolutions, first vacate your troops since that is the overriding prerequisite. You can`t have the cake and eat it too. Not given the state at which you are even with your nukes. You can eat nukes, even though you gave a shot at grass.

Omar`s Response: Very interesting that India in 1947 unilaterally determined the , `will and consent of the majority` (which incidently was Hindu) w/o a plebescite in Hyderabad, Junadgah, Munawadar and Goa in 1963, i might add.

Indian leaders must be blessed with psychic abilities. Of course, in the case of Kashmir, where the majority of 90%+ was Muslim, Rishi insists on a plebicite! The principles on which British India was partioned did not call for a plebescite for any state`s population to determine which country it was to join. Nor was there any choice of a `third way`, independence for any of the princely states. When India acted

unilaterally to occupy the aforementioned 3 states, it became clear to Pakistan, that India waas prepared to use force to overcome the issue of the legality of the accession of these states to India by their rulers, who did not want to acede to India. Therefore after India set the precedents, Pakistan certainly should feel itself justified in using volunteers to take Kashmir by force just as India did with 3 other states in 1947 and with Goa in 1963 when faced with the same situation that India was faced with. All without a plebescite, but ENTIRELY BASED ON THE PREDOMINENTLY HINDU CHARACTER OF THE POPULATION.

So, Rishi and India`s hypocricy in the Kashmir dispute stands completely exposed. And it was in 1949 that the other great Indian hypocrite Jawaharlal Pundit Neru suggested a `generous` (I would not call it that because it was a mere delaying tactic, and not in the original principles that called for the partition of British India, in proposing something `fair` it should be taken into acount that the cake was Pakistan`s to begin with, and Mr.Nehru was proposing how to divide it in a `fair` manner! All too easy to propose how to divide up your neighbour`s cake, the Indians took the same opportunity in 1971 to divvy up United Pakistan in collusion with Traitors to United Pakistan) resolution to this Indian created dispute through a Plebescite. As I have repeatedly stated Indian statesmen and Indians in general lack PRINCIPLES, and by displaying the inconsistency of their application thru their own sordid history I have proved this conclusively. They display this regularly. One should never trust an Indian`s word.

And quite frankly truthfully, though other Pakistanis may tend to be a trifle more diplomatic, I am not saying anything in this forum which 99% of them do not privately agree with. The difference is, I don`t mince words. I call a duplicitous Indian a duplicitous Indian. A murderous ghaddar Bengali, a murderous ghaddar Bengali, and a murderous rapacious Sikh, a murderous rapacious Sikh. For what they are, through an analysis of their conduct and our collective experience with them. We will never forget them their deeds, nor do I intend to let them rest in peace under a false fascade. We know them for what they are only too well.

TO OMAR1974

Cool it man. Dont get personal ( Same to Rishi). This forum is not to sort out personal problems and hurl insults and threats at each other.

Omar would you please care to reply to my posting Reply #137, if you think my intellectual level is not low enough to get a reply from you.

Thanks a lot. I would like to be friends with Pakistanis, especially hot headed people like you, just to understand your view point better and in the process clear some of your misconception of Indians, India and Hindus. Also please dont equate India with Hindus, India is more than Hindus, unlike Pakistan where Muslim and Pakistani is synonymous. By the way I am also a youngster like you - only 22. I extend my hand for friendship to you.

Thanks and take it easy.

Satyavadi

Rishi says:

Now let us look at how much depraved you have become in the course of these postings. You have called, all Bengalis `traitors`, all Bengalis `fit to be shot`, India is Ugly, India is Evil, India is Hypocritical etc., etc.,

Response: Thanks for doing the typical Hindu act. It seems you cannot outgrow your gene pool. Mischaracterizing what I actually said, that of ALL BENGALIS In Pakistan ARMY UNIFORM IN 1971, 90% were traitors. This is a FACT. I did not say ALL Bengalis per se, although that too could be justified by others. And I certainly stand by my assertions that India is a hagemonic power, an Evil Empire that only understand one language; the use of force. And these are not the off the cuff remarks of a ‘kid’, but the well considered remarks of an young adult who has actually delved deeply and carefully enough into the past to know the truth. As for my willingness to ignore the role of other Pakistani Commanders, well, they should answer for themselves for their conduct, if their consciences trouble them in the slightest. As for my ‘depravity’, its based on a reaction to the brutality and the incredible depravity of the crimes committed by Bengalis against West Pakistani CIVILIANS, in 1971 in East Pakistan. I am well aware of the macabre details of all alleged crimes committed by Pakistani forces in 1971. I read quite a few books authored by Bengali authors dealing with the subject. I also read U.S State dept reports in 1971, and many other resources available on the conflict including N.Y Times etc. I am not afraid of the truth. But those who demand ‘War Crimes’ trials should be made well aware of the (quite literally) numerous Skeletons in their own closets. Similarly, those who preach ‘ahimsa’ should be confronted with their duplicity. One must give the devil his due.

Regarding Rishi`s Comments

Frankly Rishi, you`re an ass. Don`t call me kiddo.

How old are you anyway? Your Country`s leadership has ALWAYS BEEN HYPOCRITICAL. That is a fact and if you don`t like it, just check out Kissinger and Nixon`s Memoirs and see what they say about your country`s leadership.

And frankly (and I mean this as RUDELY as possible), I don`t need a lecture by you on whether those who spilt thei blood for Pakistan (against its enemies be they foreign or domestic) and spent their lives building it, and thus dashed any dreams of `Akhand Bharat` Indians had

for good, are `War Criminals` or not.

You need to grow up and as I stated earlier look at India`s true face in the mirror. Bengalis including Major Zia-Ur-Rehman WERE TRAITORS to Pakistan in 1971, I`m not saying they are traitors today in 1999. Obviously the question of continued `treason` was resolved when Pakistan recognized Bengladesh as a Sovereign entity. And this is precisely why the Geneva Conventions DO NOT APPLY to the justified killing of anyone who was a Bangali and wore a Pakistani Army, or East Pakistan Rifles Uniform. International law is on MY SIDE in this. Since Z.A Khan did not kill any unarmed civilians, nor is there any proof that he did so, the charge of his being someone who fits the `profile of a war criminal` is baseless.

As for Pakistan, and the mess it is in today, I have ZERO illusions about it. If you`ll note earlier in the debate I said it would have been better for Mujib to have become P.M of United Pakistan, the problem was he wasn`t exactly trusted to keep the country together, and he proved why. As for Nehru, he was a hypocrite. Thats my point. Preaching one thing, like most Indian leaders, and doing another. There is a good caricature of the duplicitous, cunning Hindu, it doesn`t exist for nothing.

Don`t worry about my ability to deal with you or with any other Indians. I know exactly what language you understand best. As for the comment that Z.A Khan `lost`, E.Pakistan, that is the most laughable comment of all. A) He wasn`t there by the Summer of 1971, B)He wasn`t the senior general, the `jackal` A.K `Tiger` Niazi was.

As for Kashmir, frankly my post #128 clearly explains WHY INDIA is a nation of duplicitious hypocrites THRU an analysis of its policies. Those who formulated these policies can only be called deserving of the name hypocrites. Call a Spade a Spade. You need to look in the mirror. Its your country of birth.

Frankly, since you decided to make personal insults I`ll tell you what. I`m not going to reply in kind. But, I`ll be delighted to sort you out in person. Anytime you`re coming my way to N.Y in the next few years, we can meet someplace and I can bash your head in for you. Mono a Mono.

Kiss my ass

Omar

Re: Omar1947

you write ``A vivid discription of Bengali Ghaddari follows.Bengalis were the real war criminals and traitors

They deserved fully to be shot. If we had to do it over agin, I would personally see to it myself.

The only good Bengali wearing a Pakistani army uniform in 90% of the cases in East Pakistan in 1971 was a dead Bengali. The truth is, the Pakistan army was too soft on them. You people have SOME NERVE talking about war crimes. Look at your own. Everything that was done was completely justifiable. I stand by Z.A Khan`s actions PROUDLY. ``

-- you have some nerve to write that. let me tell you something. With such an attitude you would live in a perennial state of hypertension and regrets over a misplaced legacy. Pakistan had to be ruled by people like your uncle .. and you .. no wonder your state is like this.

-- I did not defend India`s annexation of any state. My issue is India annexed all the states including kashmir with the consent of the people (majority ). With kashmir we have a unfinished business of a plebiscite. Pakistan screwed this up by occupying another part of kashmir. If you want to talk for the kashmiris. First liberate your part of kashmir and make it into a seperate country or conduct a UN sponsored Plebiscite there. Or if you want to adhere to UN resolutions, first vacate your troops since that is the overriding prerequisite. You can`t have the cake and eat it too. Not given the state at which you are even with your nukes. You can eat nukes, even though you gave a shot at grass.

After deriding Nehru, you seem to draw some perverse pleasure in quoting your direct relationship with him and your family`s access to some notes from him. Funny, you need Nehru to confer validity on your family.

And you praise yourself on your intellectual abilities. And then you go off track and sprout nonsense after consulting your paperback concise edition of shakespear and warn and threaten others not to answer back and you claim absolute knowledge on all these areas.

I am no intellectual , that`s perhaps why i am writing to you. Ever wondered why some of the best critics and most knowledgeable individuals who contribute to chowk do not answer your postings ? Probably they know that an empty vessel makes the most noise.

If your uncle was anything like you, i would not even give him the benefit of doubt which he really deserves to be judged over his war time activities. You give him more disgrace than any reputation. If he was anything like you, no wonder he lost the war

Rishi

Rishi

Re: Omar1947

you write ``A vivid discription of Bengali Ghaddari follows.Bengalis were the real war criminals and traitors

They deserved fully to be shot. If we had to do it over agin, I would personally see to it myself.

The only good Bengali wearing a Pakistani army uniform in 90% of the cases in East Pakistan in 1971 was a dead Bengali. The truth is, the Pakistan army was too soft on them. You people have SOME NERVE talking about war crimes. Look at your own. Everything that was done was completely justifiable. I stand by Z.A Khan`s actions PROUDLY. ``

-- you have some nerve to write that. let me tell you something. With such an attitude you would live in a perennial state of hypertension and regrets over a misplaced legacy. Pakistan had to be ruled by people like your uncle .. and you .. no wonder your state is like this.

-- I did not defend India`s annexation of any state. My issue is India annexed all the states including kashmir with the consent of the people (majority ). With kashmir we have a unfinished business of a plebiscite. Pakistan screwed this up by occupying another part of kashmir. If you want to talk for the kashmiris. First liberate your part of kashmir and make it into a seperate country or conduct a UN sponsored Plebiscite there. Or if you want to adhere to UN resolutions, first vacate your troops since that is the overriding prerequisite. You can`t have the cake and eat it too. Not given the state at which you are even with your nukes. You can eat nukes, even though you gave a shot at grass.

After deriding Nehru, you seem to draw some perverse pleasure in quoting your direct relationship with him and your family`s access to some notes from him. Funny, you need Nehru to confer validity on your family.

And you praise yourself on your intellectual abilities. And then you go off track and sprout nonsense after consulting your paperback concise edition of shakespear and warn and threaten others not to answer back and you claim absolute knowledge on all these areas.

I am no intellectual , that`s perhaps why i am writing to you. Ever wondered why some of the best critics and most knowledgeable individuals who contribute to chowk do not answer your postings ? Probably they know that an empty vessel makes the most noise.

If your uncle was anything like you, i would not even give him the benefit of doubt which he really deserves to be judged over his war time activities. You give him more disgrace than any reputation. If he was anything like you, no wonder he lost the war

Rishi

Rishi

Re: Omar1947

like uncle, like nephew. BOJ

Rishi

Re: Omar1947

My, My....all those frustrations, all those name-callings might give you a high BP my friend. Tone down for your sake will ya.

Now let us look at how much depraved you have become in the course of these postings. You have called, all Bengalis `traitors`, all Bengalis `fit to be shot`, India is Ugly, India is Evil, India is Hypocritical etc., etc.,

And all this while you would not take a look at yourself in the mirror. But then, for a moment i would have thought that here is a young lad who loves his nation so much that he is angered by all those nations that have wrought havoc on his. That is entirely admissible, that too when you are still fresh. Yes, i would have indeed given that consideration but for your subsequent postings.

You are not really bothered about pakistan since you did blame all other pakistanis except your dear uncle. So finally, your arguments just boil down to pure nepotism. You are not being faithful to even your country but only to your family which is the way politics is run in the sub-continent. I guess when you go to bed, you dream of your family`s glorious past and feel sorry for yourself that you are nobody like your forefathers. Well that is the truth,. In these times no one can live on borrowed glory and legacy. And basking in all those perceived glorious past, you spit venom on others who beg to differ from you.

Now that i know your true colors, i would not even bother to reply to further postings by you.

You are not worth it my dear misguided kiddo.

Rishi