Balkan Tragedy: A Re-enactment of the 1971 Genocide in Bangladesh
Jamal Hasan April 7, 1999
#42 Posted by zabed on April 14, 1999 2:35:07 am
Re: Omar1974
Sheikh Mujib might be traitor/gaddar to u but he is to us what Jinnah is to u...and pl remember ur neighbour also call mr. Jinnah something worse than traitor. Sheikh Mujib was killed by some elements in army who came to Bangladesh from Pakistan after 1971.....( Did u plant them?)
Zabed
Sheikh Mujib might be traitor/gaddar to u but he is to us what Jinnah is to u...and pl remember ur neighbour also call mr. Jinnah something worse than traitor. Sheikh Mujib was killed by some elements in army who came to Bangladesh from Pakistan after 1971.....( Did u plant them?)
Zabed
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#41 Posted by ferozk on April 13, 1999 6:48:45 pm
Re: Rishi and Omar
The difference between a patriot and traitor is only in the perception of the deed.
Re: Altaf
Just out of curiosity, what documentary proof are you refering to? I highly doubt that the Pakistani Army kept detailed records of its massacres against the people of Bangladesh and as to the remains of the victims, where will one find those? How are you planning on proving the complicity of the Pakistani generals?
Most of the evidence against the Pakistani generals is circumtancial and granted there is enough cause to issue an indictment against them, it is still a far cry from making the charges withstand the scrutiny of the international court. The problem with the IC is that it lacks the power to enforce its judgements and since international law, in relations between nations, relies on the principle of sovereign immunity, bringing war criminals to trial is mostly a diplomatic process and not a legal one.
Even if you get these generals in court, you have to establish beyond a doubt that the Pakistani generals directly and verbally ordered the genocide. You have to establish and then proof that there is a direct link between them and the genocide. You will need solid evidence, not mere allegations, to prove the causal link. The greatest enemy to war crimes prosecution is not the act, but time itself. With each year, it gets more difficult to proof the guilt.
The difference between a patriot and traitor is only in the perception of the deed.
Re: Altaf
Just out of curiosity, what documentary proof are you refering to? I highly doubt that the Pakistani Army kept detailed records of its massacres against the people of Bangladesh and as to the remains of the victims, where will one find those? How are you planning on proving the complicity of the Pakistani generals?
Most of the evidence against the Pakistani generals is circumtancial and granted there is enough cause to issue an indictment against them, it is still a far cry from making the charges withstand the scrutiny of the international court. The problem with the IC is that it lacks the power to enforce its judgements and since international law, in relations between nations, relies on the principle of sovereign immunity, bringing war criminals to trial is mostly a diplomatic process and not a legal one.
Even if you get these generals in court, you have to establish beyond a doubt that the Pakistani generals directly and verbally ordered the genocide. You have to establish and then proof that there is a direct link between them and the genocide. You will need solid evidence, not mere allegations, to prove the causal link. The greatest enemy to war crimes prosecution is not the act, but time itself. With each year, it gets more difficult to proof the guilt.
#40 Posted by narain on April 13, 1999 12:02:28 pm
I was talking to a Bangladeshi friend of mine about whether the crowd supports India or Pakistan during cricket matches, and he told me its usually fifty-fifty: half the people hate Pakisan more, and the other half hates India more!
...Talk about peace in the sub-continent!!
...Talk about peace in the sub-continent!!
#39 Posted by rishi on April 13, 1999 11:31:58 am
Re: Omar1974
``. If we had to do it over again, we probably would. But this time India would get nuked ``
hmm, You really believe that don`t you. At the least your statement is gross stupidity and at the best just plain funny. I will take the later. Grow up will ya. rhetorics don`t help anyone at all
Mujib ... a traitor... c`mon
Rishi
``. If we had to do it over again, we probably would. But this time India would get nuked ``
hmm, You really believe that don`t you. At the least your statement is gross stupidity and at the best just plain funny. I will take the later. Grow up will ya. rhetorics don`t help anyone at all
Mujib ... a traitor... c`mon
Rishi
#38 Posted by OMAR1974 on April 13, 1999 2:13:13 am
A common fallacy spread by the left leaning NY.Times in 1971 and by numerous pro-Indian authors is repeated in this article. The fallacy is that of 3 million dead Bangalis and the 10 million refugees.
The truth is that probably about 100,000-300,000 people died as a result of the civil war. As for refugees, perhaps upto 3 million were created by the crisis that India constantly fueled and instigated, including the those initially displaced by the infamous cyclone of 1970 before the balloting. How? The Indian run Bangla radio stations in W.Bengal constantly broadcast news of massacres that did not in fact occur and exaggerated the situation deliberately, telling all East Pakistani citizens of Bangla race that the Pakistan army intended to, and was killing them. The Indians sent in RAW agents and trained the Mukti Bahini to spread misinformation and terror and constantly urged the people to flee, thereby deliberately exacerbating the crisis, and providing the requisite excuse for armed intervention in East Pakistan in order to fulfill its strategic goals. This does not however negate the Pakistani army`s bloody deeds on the night of March 25, 1971, which did in fact occur, but one should study the context in which they occured to understand Yahya Khan & Co, to say nothing of the situation prevailing in East Pakistan prior to that night. Does not excuse it, but it explains the `why`.
When U.S Congressmen visited the refugee camps in West Bengal, they were naturally appalled at the conditions prevailing. The conditions of third world poverty were indeed horrifying to people who had never seen anything like this before in their lives and India played this card to the hilt. The truth is that conditions in the refugee camps in Indian West Bengal were actually better than in the Indian state itself, so much, that local residents of Indian West Bengal entered and flooded the camps as refugees, to take advantage of the guaranteed free meals to the refugees. When the U.N wanted to take a head count of refugees, India refused to permit it. India also refused to permit any of the refugees to return safely home, after all, they were now the hard won bargaining chips of the Indian government. Many had wanted to return by September 1971, under arrangements worked out by the U.N, U.S & the amnesty offer by the Govt of Pakistan which wanted them to return. All this is substantiated by my research of the newspapers of the time, particularly NY Times on microfilm,1971 and approximately 15 books on the creation of Bangladesh i read in my senior year in high school and later in college as an undergrad, when i did an independant study/15 page paper on the subject including U.S foreign policy. Both Kissinger and Nixon are especially harsh in their memoirs on Indira Gandhi and her ruthless ambition to destroy United Pakistan ... no matter what the cost. Some of their quotes make very interesting reading.
The Awami Leagues 6 point plan was basically nothing short of a demand for outright secession. It was therefore unacceptable to any sane patriotic Pakistani at the time. That is the real truth. If we had to do it over again, we probably would. But this time India would get nuked. By October-November Pakistan army had retaken control of much of the countryside and defeated the Indian proxy, the Mukti Bahini, and the Indian BSF and army engaged in cross border shelling and other provocations in order to escalate the crisis. Yahya said in 10 days we will be at war. He kept his word. The real war crime committed was by Gen. `Tiger` Niazi (of Mein Nai Hatyar Nahinh daalay autobiographical fame recently --- too phir kiss nai daalay you coward?)Dhaka should have been turned into a fortress and the Pakistan army should have retreated within the city limits and fought to the last man, city block by city block, street by bloody street. Tiger Sahib should have faced the firing squad on his return to West Pakistan from the Indian POW camp.
Incidently, i`d like to take the opportunity to debunk the myth of the 5 IAF planes in one mission that M.M Alam claimed to have shot down in the 1965 war as well (He did however shoot down 2 others in seperate engagements during the 1965 war). THERE WAS NO GUN CAMERA FOOTAGE, or WRECKAGE of any of these planes. IAF planes shot down in other engagements by other pilots were at different times were used by the PAF to bolster his lies. The truth is Pakistan needed to prove to its citizens that it `Won` this war, and it needed `a war hero` to do it. Enter M.M Alam. This infamous lie needs to be debunked so that the real PAF heroes of 1965 & 71 are recognized for their achievements as opposed to this charlatan M.M Alam.
And finally, Brigadier gen (retd) Z.A (SSG)/Commandos exemplifies the very best of Pakistan and its army. He is not guilty of any `atrocities` against civilians whatsoever in former East Pakistan, and i suggest that this author issue an immediate retraction to this effect, and delete any implication to this effect from the article immediately because the author seems illinformed, plus the author should issue a public apology to this valiant defender of both East & West Pakistan. Brig Z.A Khan has fought bravely for his country on the battlefield repeatedly, and the only `political` mission of his life was the arrest/capture of the ghaddar/traitor Sheikh Mujib-Ur-Rehman and the transfer of said ghaddar/traitor to West Pakistan in irons/fetters, I am led to believe. Any former citizen of East Pakistan should express gratitude for this well-nigh honorable service to their country.
I`d like to add my condlences to the Pakistani army officers who were massacred by the treasonous Benglalis under their command in East Pakistan rifles etc, and the other innocent and unfortunate victims of the war including those whom Bengali mobs tore to pieces and those who were innocent victims of the Razakars etc as well.
Ironic indeed that the Bangalis themselves devoured and killed their own `father of the Bangladesh nation`, though Pakistan spared him.
In summation, Yaha handled a flood rather badly, Bhutto preferred to rule over half a country rather than not rule at all, and Mujib should have been allowed to become P.M of United Pakistan, but was not, and then turned into a traitor, India took full advantage of the delicate political situation then prevailing, exploited Yahya`s crude handling of it, and thus we lost half of the country. Thats the story of how Bangladesh came into existence. But the truth is, they are probably much better off without West Pakistan. I note their literacy rate has crept up, and their bith rate has gone down significantly. One need only look at the situation today in (West)Pakistan to realize they have done better than West Pakistan. Good luck to them. Shame on Pakistan today for allowing a small vocal minority of mullahs to dictate the terms of our social development. Balochistan still has a 2% female literacy rate today. Shows where we are today.
The truth is that probably about 100,000-300,000 people died as a result of the civil war. As for refugees, perhaps upto 3 million were created by the crisis that India constantly fueled and instigated, including the those initially displaced by the infamous cyclone of 1970 before the balloting. How? The Indian run Bangla radio stations in W.Bengal constantly broadcast news of massacres that did not in fact occur and exaggerated the situation deliberately, telling all East Pakistani citizens of Bangla race that the Pakistan army intended to, and was killing them. The Indians sent in RAW agents and trained the Mukti Bahini to spread misinformation and terror and constantly urged the people to flee, thereby deliberately exacerbating the crisis, and providing the requisite excuse for armed intervention in East Pakistan in order to fulfill its strategic goals. This does not however negate the Pakistani army`s bloody deeds on the night of March 25, 1971, which did in fact occur, but one should study the context in which they occured to understand Yahya Khan & Co, to say nothing of the situation prevailing in East Pakistan prior to that night. Does not excuse it, but it explains the `why`.
When U.S Congressmen visited the refugee camps in West Bengal, they were naturally appalled at the conditions prevailing. The conditions of third world poverty were indeed horrifying to people who had never seen anything like this before in their lives and India played this card to the hilt. The truth is that conditions in the refugee camps in Indian West Bengal were actually better than in the Indian state itself, so much, that local residents of Indian West Bengal entered and flooded the camps as refugees, to take advantage of the guaranteed free meals to the refugees. When the U.N wanted to take a head count of refugees, India refused to permit it. India also refused to permit any of the refugees to return safely home, after all, they were now the hard won bargaining chips of the Indian government. Many had wanted to return by September 1971, under arrangements worked out by the U.N, U.S & the amnesty offer by the Govt of Pakistan which wanted them to return. All this is substantiated by my research of the newspapers of the time, particularly NY Times on microfilm,1971 and approximately 15 books on the creation of Bangladesh i read in my senior year in high school and later in college as an undergrad, when i did an independant study/15 page paper on the subject including U.S foreign policy. Both Kissinger and Nixon are especially harsh in their memoirs on Indira Gandhi and her ruthless ambition to destroy United Pakistan ... no matter what the cost. Some of their quotes make very interesting reading.
The Awami Leagues 6 point plan was basically nothing short of a demand for outright secession. It was therefore unacceptable to any sane patriotic Pakistani at the time. That is the real truth. If we had to do it over again, we probably would. But this time India would get nuked. By October-November Pakistan army had retaken control of much of the countryside and defeated the Indian proxy, the Mukti Bahini, and the Indian BSF and army engaged in cross border shelling and other provocations in order to escalate the crisis. Yahya said in 10 days we will be at war. He kept his word. The real war crime committed was by Gen. `Tiger` Niazi (of Mein Nai Hatyar Nahinh daalay autobiographical fame recently --- too phir kiss nai daalay you coward?)Dhaka should have been turned into a fortress and the Pakistan army should have retreated within the city limits and fought to the last man, city block by city block, street by bloody street. Tiger Sahib should have faced the firing squad on his return to West Pakistan from the Indian POW camp.
Incidently, i`d like to take the opportunity to debunk the myth of the 5 IAF planes in one mission that M.M Alam claimed to have shot down in the 1965 war as well (He did however shoot down 2 others in seperate engagements during the 1965 war). THERE WAS NO GUN CAMERA FOOTAGE, or WRECKAGE of any of these planes. IAF planes shot down in other engagements by other pilots were at different times were used by the PAF to bolster his lies. The truth is Pakistan needed to prove to its citizens that it `Won` this war, and it needed `a war hero` to do it. Enter M.M Alam. This infamous lie needs to be debunked so that the real PAF heroes of 1965 & 71 are recognized for their achievements as opposed to this charlatan M.M Alam.
And finally, Brigadier gen (retd) Z.A (SSG)/Commandos exemplifies the very best of Pakistan and its army. He is not guilty of any `atrocities` against civilians whatsoever in former East Pakistan, and i suggest that this author issue an immediate retraction to this effect, and delete any implication to this effect from the article immediately because the author seems illinformed, plus the author should issue a public apology to this valiant defender of both East & West Pakistan. Brig Z.A Khan has fought bravely for his country on the battlefield repeatedly, and the only `political` mission of his life was the arrest/capture of the ghaddar/traitor Sheikh Mujib-Ur-Rehman and the transfer of said ghaddar/traitor to West Pakistan in irons/fetters, I am led to believe. Any former citizen of East Pakistan should express gratitude for this well-nigh honorable service to their country.
I`d like to add my condlences to the Pakistani army officers who were massacred by the treasonous Benglalis under their command in East Pakistan rifles etc, and the other innocent and unfortunate victims of the war including those whom Bengali mobs tore to pieces and those who were innocent victims of the Razakars etc as well.
Ironic indeed that the Bangalis themselves devoured and killed their own `father of the Bangladesh nation`, though Pakistan spared him.
In summation, Yaha handled a flood rather badly, Bhutto preferred to rule over half a country rather than not rule at all, and Mujib should have been allowed to become P.M of United Pakistan, but was not, and then turned into a traitor, India took full advantage of the delicate political situation then prevailing, exploited Yahya`s crude handling of it, and thus we lost half of the country. Thats the story of how Bangladesh came into existence. But the truth is, they are probably much better off without West Pakistan. I note their literacy rate has crept up, and their bith rate has gone down significantly. One need only look at the situation today in (West)Pakistan to realize they have done better than West Pakistan. Good luck to them. Shame on Pakistan today for allowing a small vocal minority of mullahs to dictate the terms of our social development. Balochistan still has a 2% female literacy rate today. Shows where we are today.
#37 Posted by Altaf Bhimji on April 13, 1999 1:02:02 am
To D/o Z. A. Khan : I actually hope that you do take this court. Preferebly to the International Court (World Court). Where we may find once, and for all the war criminals, and review all the docummentary evidence. This this issue will be settled (as settled as it can be). Of-course, Pakistan, then must also aggree that any war criminals found guilty should be turned over to international authorities (the United Nations authorities perhaps) who would enforce whatever sentence the court passes. -Altaf
#36 Posted by mohajir on April 12, 1999 4:13:52 pm
Ras:
In the US we pray alongside each other in the same
mosques, we can talk about world problems and
during cricket matches they CHEER THE PAKISTANI
TEAM when India and Pakistan play. What else can I feel but ashamed today at the events of 1971?
Ras:
Please, for God`s sake Do not try to play the Islamic card again. We have been cheated againa and again.
Bangladeshis know how Pakistanis played the Islamic card in 1971 and got massacred and killed and raped.
And what makes you believe that Bangadeshis would
support a Pakistani team only in an India-Pakistan match. In fact when I was in Dhaka to see
India Pakistan finals (Independence Cup) there were far more Indian supporters. There are Pakistani supporters too but trust me they are far less than Indian supporters. Of course if there was an India-Bangladesh match they would support Bangladesh.
Bangladesh love cricket and would love to watch good cricket.
In the US we pray alongside each other in the same
mosques, we can talk about world problems and
during cricket matches they CHEER THE PAKISTANI
TEAM when India and Pakistan play. What else can I feel but ashamed today at the events of 1971?
Ras:
Please, for God`s sake Do not try to play the Islamic card again. We have been cheated againa and again.
Bangladeshis know how Pakistanis played the Islamic card in 1971 and got massacred and killed and raped.
And what makes you believe that Bangadeshis would
support a Pakistani team only in an India-Pakistan match. In fact when I was in Dhaka to see
India Pakistan finals (Independence Cup) there were far more Indian supporters. There are Pakistani supporters too but trust me they are far less than Indian supporters. Of course if there was an India-Bangladesh match they would support Bangladesh.
Bangladesh love cricket and would love to watch good cricket.
#35 Posted by rishi on April 12, 1999 8:39:13 am
Ras Siddiqui
``(if you guys don`t mind being related to Muslims).``
-- not at all. Hindus in India have been born with an umblical cord that connects them with the Muslims. Islam has done a world of good to a perverted, myopic , casteist religion that Hinduism was and still is.
``On Kashmir you are dead wrong. There are no UN resolutions on the disputed status of Sindh, Baluchistan, NWFP or Punjab. ``
-- Agreed, but UN resolutions alone do not constitute any legality whatsoever. The UN resolutions also say that Pakistan should withdraw its troops from its part of Kashmir before such a resolution is honoured. The UN resolution for a plebiscite does not recognize any control over kashmir by pakistan while it recognizes that India had an absolute authority over the kashmir territory in relation to the instrument of accession and this status can be altered by the plebiscite. So before the UN resolution can be even thought of , pakistan has to withdraw its forces. While Pakistan is crying hoarse over indian atrocities in Kashmir, i don`t understand why Pakistan does not utilize this opportunity and declare its part of Kashmir as an independant entity. That move alone shall do the kashmir movement a world of good.
``My government (United States) still recognizes
that all of Jammu and Kashmir is disputed territory. That is not the case with Assam or Tamil Nadu.``
-- From when has my governments (United States) recognition mattered to the politics of the subcontinent. My government while it has its virtues does not constitute a global protector nor a judge and jury to recognize or not recognize other nations. My government acts only in its own interest and todays economic and political interests of my country dictate that it not recognize kashmir as a part of either india or pakistan. Tomorrow, who knows ?
Bad argument, Ras...........
`` Anyway my point was that India has alienated the Muslim Kashmiris like the West Pakistanis alienated their Bengali population. ``
-- Yes, today the Muslim Kashmiris are indeed alienated. But your statement, that India has alienated them is what i contend with. There is a subtle semantic difference between what i accept and what you allege.
Pakistan alienated East bengalis, but India did not alienate the Muslim Kashmiris. Pray tell me, exactly what actions of the Indian union alienated the Kashmiris. Did india moved in non-kashmiris into kashmir and gave them authority over the kashmiris the way pakistan did with the Biharis/bengalis --- au contraire, india gave the kashmiris complete security. Cold blooded murder is being committed by the kashmir terrorists and not the Indian Government whoes actions are monitored by a douzen or so NGOs. India foots the bill for the entire state of Kashmir, unlike Bangladesh propping up the sagging Pakistani economy prior to 1971. Indians do not have any feelings whatsoever of cultural or political superiority towards the kashmiris (muslim or not ) the way the pakistanis did towards the bengalis (aryan dravidian nonsense). Au contraire even today, the kashmiri muslim is regarded on a culturally and ethnically higher strata than say some other ethnic people within india by the other indians. The kashmiri has his own government, and is being adequately and today powerfully represented in the center. He can make or break the central government if he chooses to today.
`` And you and I can discuss that here till kingdom come but please do not end up convincing yourself that a ``Proxy War`` is all that is going on in Kashmir. ``
-- You still have not answered my questions point by point. Yes, it is not a proxy war alone that is going on in Kashmir. What is going on in kashmir was started by a proxy war which can easily become a seperatist movement, given some money, a few disgruntled elements, and a religious card. ? You seem to be more interested in the current status and not in the origin or the raison d`etre of the kashmiri problem. It is like, lets start a problem with a family and address just the problem later on and not on the cause or reason of the problem.
``We West Pakistanis were fed the same Bull during the Bangladesh crisis that our soldiers were fighting Indians and not Muslim Bengalis. ``
-- You guys are still being fed a lot of bull about the freedom struggle, about yours and india`s religions, about our common heritage and history etc., Thankfully until today (with or without the fascist BJP) we Indians due to our pluralistic nature have been fed with less bull and more substance.
`` Kashmir is more like Kosovo then Bangladesh, that it has a population who has more in common with one country and a territory claimed by another.``
-- there you go again. now you have to compare kashmir with kosovo...and now you have to claim that the kashmiris have more in common with pakistan. That claim needs to be made by a kashmiri and not you and also remember that for every kashmiri who makes that claim there is another kashmiri who would make a contrary claim about being more in common with india and another who would claim that they have nothing in common with either. if only milosevic had treated kosovo as india did with kashmir (special status, autonomy, religious and cultural freedom etc), his country would not have been bombed today. Instead he tried to deal with Kosovo as Pakistan did with Bangladesh...............
``As far as your implied threat of India doing the same to Pakistan by working on Sindh, Baluchistan
and the NWFP, it appears that India is already active in both major groups in Sindh. ``
-- I am not implying any threat. I am just trying to point out that in economically regressive and societally plural societies like ours, dissensions and seperatist movements can be as easily created as lighting a fire. As long as a democratic setup is in existence in our countries and where the actions of everyone of us can be judged by the people, as long as we have an unbiased judiciary and a strong and independant press these seperatist movements are in existence only because of outside influenze or because of a few self centered persons fanning such movements for their own hidden agendas. And that is all that i was trying to point. Who am i to threaten anyone for that matter ?
`` But your security and political establishment appears to be mature enough to understand that the
undoing of Pakistan will mean the undoing of India``
-- Yes, thankfully the Indian government realizes that and that is the probably a reason Pakistan is not facing a kashmir within its borders.
``but that the ideological wave that has crept into Kashmir will become a Tsunami into India where 300 million Muslims will upset the Brahminic domination of Bharat.``
-- You know what, i hope that the Muslims of India start using the democratic process sensibly and do upset the Brahminic domination of Bharat. My only fear is that they might be used by the lalloos and mulayams of India for their vote bank politics.
``The only way out is a negotiated settlement of Kashmir and to bolster the rocky economy of Chai
drinking Pakistan.``
-- I don`t think there is a sensible way, excepting what the Chinese premier once said. Let us cease hostilities and improve our economy and our defense ( have as many missiles as each wants but keep the nukes in check ), stop interfering with the other country`s internal matters, maintain a status quo in terms of borders and hope that a future generation would be wiser than the one today to decide its course of action. Who knows what would happen in another 20-50 years of technological and economical advancement. ?
Rishi
``(if you guys don`t mind being related to Muslims).``
-- not at all. Hindus in India have been born with an umblical cord that connects them with the Muslims. Islam has done a world of good to a perverted, myopic , casteist religion that Hinduism was and still is.
``On Kashmir you are dead wrong. There are no UN resolutions on the disputed status of Sindh, Baluchistan, NWFP or Punjab. ``
-- Agreed, but UN resolutions alone do not constitute any legality whatsoever. The UN resolutions also say that Pakistan should withdraw its troops from its part of Kashmir before such a resolution is honoured. The UN resolution for a plebiscite does not recognize any control over kashmir by pakistan while it recognizes that India had an absolute authority over the kashmir territory in relation to the instrument of accession and this status can be altered by the plebiscite. So before the UN resolution can be even thought of , pakistan has to withdraw its forces. While Pakistan is crying hoarse over indian atrocities in Kashmir, i don`t understand why Pakistan does not utilize this opportunity and declare its part of Kashmir as an independant entity. That move alone shall do the kashmir movement a world of good.
``My government (United States) still recognizes
that all of Jammu and Kashmir is disputed territory. That is not the case with Assam or Tamil Nadu.``
-- From when has my governments (United States) recognition mattered to the politics of the subcontinent. My government while it has its virtues does not constitute a global protector nor a judge and jury to recognize or not recognize other nations. My government acts only in its own interest and todays economic and political interests of my country dictate that it not recognize kashmir as a part of either india or pakistan. Tomorrow, who knows ?
Bad argument, Ras...........
`` Anyway my point was that India has alienated the Muslim Kashmiris like the West Pakistanis alienated their Bengali population. ``
-- Yes, today the Muslim Kashmiris are indeed alienated. But your statement, that India has alienated them is what i contend with. There is a subtle semantic difference between what i accept and what you allege.
Pakistan alienated East bengalis, but India did not alienate the Muslim Kashmiris. Pray tell me, exactly what actions of the Indian union alienated the Kashmiris. Did india moved in non-kashmiris into kashmir and gave them authority over the kashmiris the way pakistan did with the Biharis/bengalis --- au contraire, india gave the kashmiris complete security. Cold blooded murder is being committed by the kashmir terrorists and not the Indian Government whoes actions are monitored by a douzen or so NGOs. India foots the bill for the entire state of Kashmir, unlike Bangladesh propping up the sagging Pakistani economy prior to 1971. Indians do not have any feelings whatsoever of cultural or political superiority towards the kashmiris (muslim or not ) the way the pakistanis did towards the bengalis (aryan dravidian nonsense). Au contraire even today, the kashmiri muslim is regarded on a culturally and ethnically higher strata than say some other ethnic people within india by the other indians. The kashmiri has his own government, and is being adequately and today powerfully represented in the center. He can make or break the central government if he chooses to today.
`` And you and I can discuss that here till kingdom come but please do not end up convincing yourself that a ``Proxy War`` is all that is going on in Kashmir. ``
-- You still have not answered my questions point by point. Yes, it is not a proxy war alone that is going on in Kashmir. What is going on in kashmir was started by a proxy war which can easily become a seperatist movement, given some money, a few disgruntled elements, and a religious card. ? You seem to be more interested in the current status and not in the origin or the raison d`etre of the kashmiri problem. It is like, lets start a problem with a family and address just the problem later on and not on the cause or reason of the problem.
``We West Pakistanis were fed the same Bull during the Bangladesh crisis that our soldiers were fighting Indians and not Muslim Bengalis. ``
-- You guys are still being fed a lot of bull about the freedom struggle, about yours and india`s religions, about our common heritage and history etc., Thankfully until today (with or without the fascist BJP) we Indians due to our pluralistic nature have been fed with less bull and more substance.
`` Kashmir is more like Kosovo then Bangladesh, that it has a population who has more in common with one country and a territory claimed by another.``
-- there you go again. now you have to compare kashmir with kosovo...and now you have to claim that the kashmiris have more in common with pakistan. That claim needs to be made by a kashmiri and not you and also remember that for every kashmiri who makes that claim there is another kashmiri who would make a contrary claim about being more in common with india and another who would claim that they have nothing in common with either. if only milosevic had treated kosovo as india did with kashmir (special status, autonomy, religious and cultural freedom etc), his country would not have been bombed today. Instead he tried to deal with Kosovo as Pakistan did with Bangladesh...............
``As far as your implied threat of India doing the same to Pakistan by working on Sindh, Baluchistan
and the NWFP, it appears that India is already active in both major groups in Sindh. ``
-- I am not implying any threat. I am just trying to point out that in economically regressive and societally plural societies like ours, dissensions and seperatist movements can be as easily created as lighting a fire. As long as a democratic setup is in existence in our countries and where the actions of everyone of us can be judged by the people, as long as we have an unbiased judiciary and a strong and independant press these seperatist movements are in existence only because of outside influenze or because of a few self centered persons fanning such movements for their own hidden agendas. And that is all that i was trying to point. Who am i to threaten anyone for that matter ?
`` But your security and political establishment appears to be mature enough to understand that the
undoing of Pakistan will mean the undoing of India``
-- Yes, thankfully the Indian government realizes that and that is the probably a reason Pakistan is not facing a kashmir within its borders.
``but that the ideological wave that has crept into Kashmir will become a Tsunami into India where 300 million Muslims will upset the Brahminic domination of Bharat.``
-- You know what, i hope that the Muslims of India start using the democratic process sensibly and do upset the Brahminic domination of Bharat. My only fear is that they might be used by the lalloos and mulayams of India for their vote bank politics.
``The only way out is a negotiated settlement of Kashmir and to bolster the rocky economy of Chai
drinking Pakistan.``
-- I don`t think there is a sensible way, excepting what the Chinese premier once said. Let us cease hostilities and improve our economy and our defense ( have as many missiles as each wants but keep the nukes in check ), stop interfering with the other country`s internal matters, maintain a status quo in terms of borders and hope that a future generation would be wiser than the one today to decide its course of action. Who knows what would happen in another 20-50 years of technological and economical advancement. ?
Rishi
#34 Posted by Zakk on April 12, 1999 8:39:13 am
As usual I am jumping in at the fag end of the discussion ..so I shall be brief
1...As was seen by Pakistan`s experience in 1965 with Kashmir pouring weapons into a region ..doesn`t trigger an insurrection not unless they are underlying causes .
2....There is a strong element of racial and ethnic chavunism ..similair in both cases of Kosovo and East Pakistan ..it wasn`t uncommon to hear West PAkistani soldiers being quoted as saying `` we`ll remove the fight out of them forever ``
`` We will wipe out tehir genes ``
3...Interestingly India is opposed to the intervention by Nato in the conflict ..as are countries like China and Russia ...most probably because ..once you allow such a precedent ..it can be applied elsewhere ( a useful lesson for any armed intervention in Pakistan as well )
4...The history behind the kosovo war is much more complex then the East Pakistan one ..it is 500 + years old...and the alnd historically was Serbian ..but due to war and migrations ..the Albanian community became a majority .
5...On the other hand their is an important similairity ..if the East Pakistan incident had occurred now ..it would most definitely have been considered Genocide ..and many pakistani leaders would have been caught .
In Pakistans defense ..that it hasn`t apologised for the War and hasn`t paid compensation ..all assets in East Pakistan were nationalised by the Mujib govt. ..something that played a role in the economic depression that overtook West Pakistan in the `70`s ..also it is said that Z.A Bhutto apologised in 1975 on his trip to Bangladesh ( I am however uncertain about this ) another point worth mentioning ..is that over 1.5 million Bengalis live in pakistan right now ..as illegeal immigrants ..they are employed ..and have taken over teh fishing industry in Karachi ..they have excacerbated the ethnic and social problems in that area ..and send their remittances back to Bangladesh ...another reference is that in Nawaz Sharifs trip to Bangladesh ( the first one after being re elected PM ) he did clearly state that the March 1970 crackdown was wrong and that the mandate of the people should have been respected .
1...As was seen by Pakistan`s experience in 1965 with Kashmir pouring weapons into a region ..doesn`t trigger an insurrection not unless they are underlying causes .
2....There is a strong element of racial and ethnic chavunism ..similair in both cases of Kosovo and East Pakistan ..it wasn`t uncommon to hear West PAkistani soldiers being quoted as saying `` we`ll remove the fight out of them forever ``
`` We will wipe out tehir genes ``
3...Interestingly India is opposed to the intervention by Nato in the conflict ..as are countries like China and Russia ...most probably because ..once you allow such a precedent ..it can be applied elsewhere ( a useful lesson for any armed intervention in Pakistan as well )
4...The history behind the kosovo war is much more complex then the East Pakistan one ..it is 500 + years old...and the alnd historically was Serbian ..but due to war and migrations ..the Albanian community became a majority .
5...On the other hand their is an important similairity ..if the East Pakistan incident had occurred now ..it would most definitely have been considered Genocide ..and many pakistani leaders would have been caught .
In Pakistans defense ..that it hasn`t apologised for the War and hasn`t paid compensation ..all assets in East Pakistan were nationalised by the Mujib govt. ..something that played a role in the economic depression that overtook West Pakistan in the `70`s ..also it is said that Z.A Bhutto apologised in 1975 on his trip to Bangladesh ( I am however uncertain about this ) another point worth mentioning ..is that over 1.5 million Bengalis live in pakistan right now ..as illegeal immigrants ..they are employed ..and have taken over teh fishing industry in Karachi ..they have excacerbated the ethnic and social problems in that area ..and send their remittances back to Bangladesh ...another reference is that in Nawaz Sharifs trip to Bangladesh ( the first one after being re elected PM ) he did clearly state that the March 1970 crackdown was wrong and that the mandate of the people should have been respected .
#33 Posted by OMAR1974 on April 12, 1999 1:15:38 am
ATTENTION Mr. JAMAL HASAN
I must ask you as to WHY you have included in your list of names of people who `fit the profile of war criminals` Brig Gen. Z.A Khan. Kindly include detailed reasons for why you or anyone else should consider this gentleman a person who `fits the profile of a war criminal`. I am only aware of his role in the capture of the ghaddar/traitor Sheikh Mujibur Rehman, and his escort of said ghaddar/traitor to West Pakistan. I hardly think that this act constitutes a war crime. Explain your irresponsible statements, or withdraw them immediately.
The issue of whether the Pakistan army committed
genocide in East Pakistan in 1971 is seperate from the issue of individual responsibility when you name particular individuals. Some of those individuals named are no doubt guilty of committing inhuman atrocities on the East Pakistani Bengalis at the time, but I seriously doubt you have an iota of proof against the Brigadier General (retd) Z.A.Khan. Incidently this gentleman has recently published a book about his experiences in the Pakistan army titled, `The Way it Was.` Exerpts of the book have been published on the internet in Pakistani Defence journals which are availble on the internet free of charge in back issues if you care to read about them.
I must ask you as to WHY you have included in your list of names of people who `fit the profile of war criminals` Brig Gen. Z.A Khan. Kindly include detailed reasons for why you or anyone else should consider this gentleman a person who `fits the profile of a war criminal`. I am only aware of his role in the capture of the ghaddar/traitor Sheikh Mujibur Rehman, and his escort of said ghaddar/traitor to West Pakistan. I hardly think that this act constitutes a war crime. Explain your irresponsible statements, or withdraw them immediately.
The issue of whether the Pakistan army committed
genocide in East Pakistan in 1971 is seperate from the issue of individual responsibility when you name particular individuals. Some of those individuals named are no doubt guilty of committing inhuman atrocities on the East Pakistani Bengalis at the time, but I seriously doubt you have an iota of proof against the Brigadier General (retd) Z.A.Khan. Incidently this gentleman has recently published a book about his experiences in the Pakistan army titled, `The Way it Was.` Exerpts of the book have been published on the internet in Pakistani Defence journals which are availble on the internet free of charge in back issues if you care to read about them.
#32 Posted by mshah on April 12, 1999 1:15:38 am
Dear Mr. Jamal Hasan
Your article made very interesting reading. Like most emotional yet ignorant people you have very ardently made use of words to cover up your lack of information. I do hope you are aware of the fact that calling a person some thing like a war crimnal surmounts to slander and defamation. I hope you can substantiate your calim with some legal proof. Other wise you will soon be talking to some lawyers and finding out what it really means to make unfounded accusations.
Muneezae Khan
D/o Brig. ZA Khan
Your article made very interesting reading. Like most emotional yet ignorant people you have very ardently made use of words to cover up your lack of information. I do hope you are aware of the fact that calling a person some thing like a war crimnal surmounts to slander and defamation. I hope you can substantiate your calim with some legal proof. Other wise you will soon be talking to some lawyers and finding out what it really means to make unfounded accusations.
Muneezae Khan
D/o Brig. ZA Khan
#31 Posted by Ras Siddiqui on April 11, 1999 10:23:24 pm
RE: Rishi #31 and 33
There is not much confusion here. I am proud of my South Asian (non-Arab) roots and will stick to tea
even if it somehow connects me to North Indians (if you guys don`t mind being related to Muslims).
We have a religion in common with the Arabs but a
civilization shared with that of India and Afghanistan.
On Kashmir you are dead wrong. There are no UN resolutions on the disputed status of Sindh, Baluchistan, NWFP or Punjab.
My government (United States) still recognizes
that all of Jammu and Kashmir is disputed territory. That is not the case with Assam or Tamil Nadu.
Bangladesh was an exceptional case where the MAJORITY of a country was forced to part company with the MINORITY because of the lack of vision
amongst the ``Ruled Elite`` (Not Ruling Elite) of
West Pakistan. I cannot think of any other time in history where a Majority has parted and formed it`s own state leaving the miniority to carry on with the name of the country of origin.
Anyway my point was that India has alienated the Muslim Kashmiris like the West Pakistanis alienated their Bengali population. And you and I can discuss that here till kingdom come but please do not end up convincing yourself that a ``Proxy War`` is all that is going on in Kashmir. We West
Pakistanis were fed the same Bull during the Bangladesh crisis that our soldiers were fighting Indians and not Muslim Bengalis.
Kashmir is more like Kosovo then Bangladesh, that it has a population who has more in common with one country and a territory claimed by another.
As far as your implied threat of India doing the same to Pakistan by working on Sindh, Baluchistan
and the NWFP, it appears that India is already active in both major groups in Sindh. It is for the Pakistani leadership to see that this influence is limited to nuisance value but yes India can take advantage of the economic problems of Pakistan and try and undo the rest of it.
But your security and political establishment appears to be mature enough to understand that the
undoing of Pakistan will mean the undoing of India
(I am not talking of a military conflict with the nuclear element here) but that the ideological wave that has crept into Kashmir will become a Tsunami into India where 300 million Muslims will
upset the Brahminic domination of Bharat.
The only way out is a negotiated settlement of Kashmir and to bolster the rocky economy of Chai
drinking Pakistan.
Ras
#30 Posted by rishi on April 10, 1999 4:17:57 pm
Re: Ras and others
Give anyone access to unlimited funds, a host country to aid and abet his ambitions , a few disgruntled elements in an economically underdeveloped but perfectly democratic and secular country and a few cards to play with (such as religious, cultural, ethnic or linguistic ) and they can create a kashmir or a balkans anywhere.
What is good for the goose is good for the gander. So what would prevent india from playing the same bangladesh card now with Baluchistan, Sind or the NWFP in Pakistan. ?
Rishi
Give anyone access to unlimited funds, a host country to aid and abet his ambitions , a few disgruntled elements in an economically underdeveloped but perfectly democratic and secular country and a few cards to play with (such as religious, cultural, ethnic or linguistic ) and they can create a kashmir or a balkans anywhere.
What is good for the goose is good for the gander. So what would prevent india from playing the same bangladesh card now with Baluchistan, Sind or the NWFP in Pakistan. ?
Rishi
#29 Posted by rishi on April 10, 1999 4:17:57 pm
Re: Ras
``Coffee may not be our favorite Pakistani drink but it appears that you both are making the same mistake on Kashmir that most Pakistanis were and are making on Bangladesh. ``
-- hmm, do you know that you guys are missing something. Often, i end up arguing with my chaiwala friends from Bengal and Kerala about the delights of Coffea Arabica.
Coffee, a native of Ethiopia was first introduced into the Arab world centuries before in the what is now Yemen. For centuries, Arab and then Ottoman traders enjoyed a monopoly on this magically invigorating plant, and to protect it they enforced a strict ban on export of viable seeds of the mother plant. Not until 1690 were plants successfully smuggled to Ceylon and from there to Java, allowing the Dutch East Indies Company to join in competition for the worlds burgeoning coffee thirst. Today more than 85 countries grow it, and coffee is the world’s number one export commodity by dollar value. Still, some legends linger: the botanical name Coffea Arabica is owed to this passage through Yemen, which was formerly just a mountainous corner of a vast exotic land known to us simply as ``Arabia``.
Amazing that Pakistan does not consider Coffee as its favorite food inspite of its Arabic heritage. It is probably due to their cultural similarity with the chai loving northern indians. The south of India with which i am reasonably familiar with however loves coffee (especially Tamil Nad and Karnatak ) .
That apart, even on a point by point basis, you would be hard pressed to draw an exact parallel between kashmir and bangladesh. By the same logic which you quote, bangladesh can be equated with tamil nad (which incidentally was the first state in India which asked for a seperate statehood ) or Assam, or Punjab or Kashmir or any state of the Indian Union.
But if you hold the religion card then again you would expose your ignorance of the secularism on which India is founded upon (however slender this might be today).
Kashmiri Hindu Pundits are butchered in Kashmir on a regular basis and you do read them in your newspapers, Families are lined up and shot in cold blood by the Muslim fundamentalists . Has any bangladeshi liberation fighters done something even remotely parallel to the Biharis .. ?
Coffee or not, don`t kid yourself. The issue here is different.
Re: Amit.
I disagree with you when you state that the Indian Government did not actively try to develop the lot of Kashmiris. By that same token, the Indian Government can be accused of not actively developing the seven sister states of the east, or orissa or madhyapradesh or even Bihar. It is up to the state governments to develop their states.
And as per your other statement of the Indian government dismissing the elected governments of Kashmir, well did they not do the same with all the other states at one point or the other (ask the DMK about the number of times they were dismissed ). There was never a pogrom against the kashmiris in India. Atleast the sikhs can accuse the others of that during the delhi riots. But i beg your pardon, the kashmiris cannot. What is happening in Kashmir is that a sect of religious fundamentalists, with the active connivance and abetment of a neighbouring are are utitlising the economic disarray and the resultant disenchantment of the people along with their religious sentiments to whip up anti-establishment sentiments. However till date, there has been no refugee movement from kashmir to even POK let alone pakistan. Take Pakistan geographically away from kashmir and kashmir will cease to be problem. Put Pakistan next to TamilNad or Kerala geographically, and then these states today would have been kashmirs.
Rishi
Rishi
``Coffee may not be our favorite Pakistani drink but it appears that you both are making the same mistake on Kashmir that most Pakistanis were and are making on Bangladesh. ``
-- hmm, do you know that you guys are missing something. Often, i end up arguing with my chaiwala friends from Bengal and Kerala about the delights of Coffea Arabica.
Coffee, a native of Ethiopia was first introduced into the Arab world centuries before in the what is now Yemen. For centuries, Arab and then Ottoman traders enjoyed a monopoly on this magically invigorating plant, and to protect it they enforced a strict ban on export of viable seeds of the mother plant. Not until 1690 were plants successfully smuggled to Ceylon and from there to Java, allowing the Dutch East Indies Company to join in competition for the worlds burgeoning coffee thirst. Today more than 85 countries grow it, and coffee is the world’s number one export commodity by dollar value. Still, some legends linger: the botanical name Coffea Arabica is owed to this passage through Yemen, which was formerly just a mountainous corner of a vast exotic land known to us simply as ``Arabia``.
Amazing that Pakistan does not consider Coffee as its favorite food inspite of its Arabic heritage. It is probably due to their cultural similarity with the chai loving northern indians. The south of India with which i am reasonably familiar with however loves coffee (especially Tamil Nad and Karnatak ) .
That apart, even on a point by point basis, you would be hard pressed to draw an exact parallel between kashmir and bangladesh. By the same logic which you quote, bangladesh can be equated with tamil nad (which incidentally was the first state in India which asked for a seperate statehood ) or Assam, or Punjab or Kashmir or any state of the Indian Union.
But if you hold the religion card then again you would expose your ignorance of the secularism on which India is founded upon (however slender this might be today).
Kashmiri Hindu Pundits are butchered in Kashmir on a regular basis and you do read them in your newspapers, Families are lined up and shot in cold blood by the Muslim fundamentalists . Has any bangladeshi liberation fighters done something even remotely parallel to the Biharis .. ?
Coffee or not, don`t kid yourself. The issue here is different.
Re: Amit.
I disagree with you when you state that the Indian Government did not actively try to develop the lot of Kashmiris. By that same token, the Indian Government can be accused of not actively developing the seven sister states of the east, or orissa or madhyapradesh or even Bihar. It is up to the state governments to develop their states.
And as per your other statement of the Indian government dismissing the elected governments of Kashmir, well did they not do the same with all the other states at one point or the other (ask the DMK about the number of times they were dismissed ). There was never a pogrom against the kashmiris in India. Atleast the sikhs can accuse the others of that during the delhi riots. But i beg your pardon, the kashmiris cannot. What is happening in Kashmir is that a sect of religious fundamentalists, with the active connivance and abetment of a neighbouring are are utitlising the economic disarray and the resultant disenchantment of the people along with their religious sentiments to whip up anti-establishment sentiments. However till date, there has been no refugee movement from kashmir to even POK let alone pakistan. Take Pakistan geographically away from kashmir and kashmir will cease to be problem. Put Pakistan next to TamilNad or Kerala geographically, and then these states today would have been kashmirs.
Rishi
Rishi
#28 Posted by iconoclast on April 10, 1999 4:17:57 pm
even though i am a muslim.. i proud that i am not fundamentalistic about my religion. I have been to temples and churches (though not worshipped ) in India along with my hindu and christian friends and i essentially believe that to each his own. But i am indeed amazed by the fact that my hindu friends in particular have at many a times have prayed in the local dargah with me. My guess, is their pluralistic nature with regards to their religion makes them open to all religions. Which is essentially why India as a country is remaining secular still.
Somewhere along the lines, Muslims of the world are confused between the concept of the state and the church. Why is it that almost all the major problems that plague the world today have their roots in Islam ? Take it as Bosnia, Serbia, Iran, Algeria, Egypt, Sudan, kashmir, Afghanistan, Phillipines, Indonesia, Timor etc., etc., This raging fire of fundamentalist Islam does not pit muslims against christians or hindus alone but even against the radicals against the moderates in states like Egypt, Turkey and Algeria and even to some extent in Pakistan. It is time we take a deep look at ourselves.
iconoclast
Somewhere along the lines, Muslims of the world are confused between the concept of the state and the church. Why is it that almost all the major problems that plague the world today have their roots in Islam ? Take it as Bosnia, Serbia, Iran, Algeria, Egypt, Sudan, kashmir, Afghanistan, Phillipines, Indonesia, Timor etc., etc., This raging fire of fundamentalist Islam does not pit muslims against christians or hindus alone but even against the radicals against the moderates in states like Egypt, Turkey and Algeria and even to some extent in Pakistan. It is time we take a deep look at ourselves.
iconoclast
#27 Posted by amit on April 10, 1999 11:24:38 am
Re: Rishi and Bobbybasu
The Kashmir situation may not be similar to Bangladesh but there is a legacy of partition that we cannot ignore. If Kashmir was a British province, it would have certainly gone to Pakistan since it shares a land connection with the rest of Pakistan. India took over Hyderabad and Junagadh which had muslim rulers with hindu majority which we felt was quite justified. Therefore, Pakistan feels justified in pursuing Kashmir. In addition, I feel that we Indians have done a lousy job in the administration and development of Kashmir. Successive congress governments at the center intefered and dismissed democratically elected governments, played power games with the Kashmiris and allowed massive rigging in polls. As a result, most of the Kashmir governments were phenomenally inept and corrupt.
At a social level we never bothered to integrate Kashmiri muslims into Indian society. If you look at education institutions (IIT, IIM etc.), public sector, private sector in India, you can find people from all parts of India including Kashmiri pundits. However, you rarely find a Kashmiri muslim. Since Kashmiri muslims and pundits belong to the same stock, it is not possible to accept that one group is overwhelmingly meritorius over the rest. This omission may not be deliberate but it is indicative of a need to do something for the socio-economic development of Kashmir. Unfortunately we are so caught up in the security issues, we do not realize the need for a long term strategy. The rebellion in Kashmir in 1989 had very strong popular support and we cannot deny that. We may have succeeded in crushing it but we need to look at the root cause.
As far as Pakistan is concerned, we need to move away from the zero-sum game over Kashmir. What is the problem in finding some sort of compromise solution with the Pakistanis ? For e.g. we can increase the autonomy level in Kashmir and collaborate on Kashmir`s defence and foreign affairs with Pakistan. We can allow free movement of people and commerce between Kashmir and Pakistan, with adequate security provisions. We can have independent human rights observers located there. However, we should demand that Pakistan must be a partner with India and invest in the peaceful socio-economic development of Kashmir with hard cash and resources.
The Kashmir situation may not be similar to Bangladesh but there is a legacy of partition that we cannot ignore. If Kashmir was a British province, it would have certainly gone to Pakistan since it shares a land connection with the rest of Pakistan. India took over Hyderabad and Junagadh which had muslim rulers with hindu majority which we felt was quite justified. Therefore, Pakistan feels justified in pursuing Kashmir. In addition, I feel that we Indians have done a lousy job in the administration and development of Kashmir. Successive congress governments at the center intefered and dismissed democratically elected governments, played power games with the Kashmiris and allowed massive rigging in polls. As a result, most of the Kashmir governments were phenomenally inept and corrupt.
At a social level we never bothered to integrate Kashmiri muslims into Indian society. If you look at education institutions (IIT, IIM etc.), public sector, private sector in India, you can find people from all parts of India including Kashmiri pundits. However, you rarely find a Kashmiri muslim. Since Kashmiri muslims and pundits belong to the same stock, it is not possible to accept that one group is overwhelmingly meritorius over the rest. This omission may not be deliberate but it is indicative of a need to do something for the socio-economic development of Kashmir. Unfortunately we are so caught up in the security issues, we do not realize the need for a long term strategy. The rebellion in Kashmir in 1989 had very strong popular support and we cannot deny that. We may have succeeded in crushing it but we need to look at the root cause.
As far as Pakistan is concerned, we need to move away from the zero-sum game over Kashmir. What is the problem in finding some sort of compromise solution with the Pakistanis ? For e.g. we can increase the autonomy level in Kashmir and collaborate on Kashmir`s defence and foreign affairs with Pakistan. We can allow free movement of people and commerce between Kashmir and Pakistan, with adequate security provisions. We can have independent human rights observers located there. However, we should demand that Pakistan must be a partner with India and invest in the peaceful socio-economic development of Kashmir with hard cash and resources.
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