Balkan Tragedy: A Re-enactment of the 1971 Genocide in Bangladesh

TO OMAR1974

Cool it man. Dont get personal ( Same to Rishi). This forum is not to sort out personal problems and hurl insults and threats at each other.

Omar would you please care to reply to my posting Reply #137, if you think my intellectual level is not low enough to get a reply from you.

Thanks a lot. I would like to be friends with Pakistanis, especially hot headed people like you, just to understand your view point better and in the process clear some of your misconception of Indians, India and Hindus. Also please dont equate India with Hindus, India is more than Hindus, unlike Pakistan where Muslim and Pakistani is synonymous. By the way I am also a youngster like you - only 22. I extend my hand for friendship to you.

Thanks and take it easy.

Satyavadi

Re: Rishi`s Comments on Kashmir

FIRST CAREFULLY READ #128 By Omar an analysis of Indian foreign policy duplicity

Rishi says:-- I did not defend India`s annexation of any state. My issue is India annexed all the states including kashmir with the consent of the people (majority ). With kashmir we have a unfinished business of a plebiscite. Pakistan screwed this up by occupying another part of kashmir. If you want to talk for the kashmiris. First liberate your part of kashmir and make it into a seperate country or conduct a UN sponsored Plebiscite there. Or if you want to adhere to UN resolutions, first vacate your troops since that is the overriding prerequisite. You can`t have the cake and eat it too. Not given the state at which you are even with your nukes. You can eat nukes, even though you gave a shot at grass.

Omar`s Response: Very interesting that India in 1947 unilaterally determined the , `will and consent of the majority` (which incidently was Hindu) w/o a plebescite in Hyderabad, Junadgah, Munawadar and Goa in 1963, i might add.

Indian leaders must be blessed with psychic abilities. Of course, in the case of Kashmir, where the majority of 90%+ was Muslim, Rishi insists on a plebicite! The principles on which British India was partioned did not call for a plebescite for any state`s population to determine which country it was to join. Nor was there any choice of a `third way`, independence for any of the princely states. When India acted

unilaterally to occupy the aforementioned 3 states, it became clear to Pakistan, that India waas prepared to use force to overcome the issue of the legality of the accession of these states to India by their rulers, who did not want to acede to India. Therefore after India set the precedents, Pakistan certainly should feel itself justified in using volunteers to take Kashmir by force just as India did with 3 other states in 1947 and with Goa in 1963 when faced with the same situation that India was faced with. All without a plebescite, but ENTIRELY BASED ON THE PREDOMINENTLY HINDU CHARACTER OF THE POPULATION.

So, Rishi and India`s hypocricy in the Kashmir dispute stands completely exposed. And it was in 1949 that the other great Indian hypocrite Jawaharlal Pundit Neru suggested a `generous` (I would not call it that because it was a mere delaying tactic, and not in the original principles that called for the partition of British India, in proposing something `fair` it should be taken into acount that the cake was Pakistan`s to begin with, and Mr.Nehru was proposing how to divide it in a `fair` manner! All too easy to propose how to divide up your neighbour`s cake, the Indians took the same opportunity in 1971 to divvy up United Pakistan in collusion with Traitors to United Pakistan) resolution to this Indian created dispute through a Plebescite. As I have repeatedly stated Indian statesmen and Indians in general lack PRINCIPLES, and by displaying the inconsistency of their application thru their own sordid history I have proved this conclusively. They display this regularly. One should never trust an Indian`s word.

And quite frankly truthfully, though other Pakistanis may tend to be a trifle more diplomatic, I am not saying anything in this forum which 99% of them do not privately agree with. The difference is, I don`t mince words. I call a duplicitous Indian a duplicitous Indian. A murderous ghaddar Bengali, a murderous ghaddar Bengali, and a murderous rapacious Sikh, a murderous rapacious Sikh. For what they are, through an analysis of their conduct and our collective experience with them. We will never forget them their deeds, nor do I intend to let them rest in peace under a false fascade. We know them for what they are only too well.

Dear Satyavadi,

I think I already named the third state in 1947 in my prior post. As for your intellectual level joke :). I am 25, and will be taking the Bar exam SOON ENOUGH. Maybe too soon for Jamal Hasan and Chowk’s liking! :) So they better take me seriously because I mean business, and the statute of limitations on libel ain’t running out anytime soon. The only `games` I know how to play, and enjoy playing, involve suing real people and real corporations, and REAL $$$ signs. A lawsuit can become a real pain in the neck with continually mounting legal costs, and unending litigation half way across the continent from where you happen to reside in the hands of a determined lawyer. And this brings me to the real reason why I mentioned I`m Z.A Khan`s nephew, because he won`t have any legal costs in pusuing a case for libel. This is not meant to be a joke. Do you happen to know what the price (the going rate) of a man`s honor is? I suggest Chowk`s editors and Jamal Hasan think about that one for starters. It is one of the last opportunities the parties have to issue a retraction and an unqualified apology to Brig. Z.A Khan.

Personally, I think India owes us from 1947. And that is the root of the problem. If its not solved, it festers. If Pakistan and India had good relations, India would not necessarily have invaded East Pakistan in 1971. East Pakistan could have become Bangladesh thru peaceful means, Kissinger’s diplomacy was aimed at bringing about this result. Pakistan did not cleanse itself of virtually all Hindus, anymore than India cleansed itself of Muslims in 1947. Think about that one, and in the context of communal rioting. The trains of death (Khushwant Singh wrote a good book, ‘Train to Pakistan’, they made a movie in English recently, I haven’t seen it yet). I discussed Kashmir, Goa, Junadgah etc in the context of the (non existent or hypocritical) principles of Indian foreign policy, (which does not mean I am saying India did wrong in taking Goa in 1963 at all) only to show their selective and hypocritical application as a PATTERN in various situations. Read Carefully. And btw, my views are not really far out, they represent 99% of Pakistanis` views. Good will begets good will. But India has always played the regional school yard bully from DAY 1. And the only way to deal with a bully, who is basically a coward with bigger muscle, is by knocking his teeth out.

Regards, (Civility also begets Civility)

Omar

A final thought:

To Satyavadi, Rishi, other Indians and Bengalis

etc:

You should not forget that the same hands that are more than capable of punching you back, pulling a trigger to shoot back at you, drafting a brief for a lawsuit, and flipping the pages of history books and Shakespearean plays, are also capable of being extended to save your own lives one day.

regards

Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

When the wind is southerly, i know a hawk from a handsaw.:)

Could we please read what khokan has to say in
its entirety? This has happened to me in the past
too so I hope that this posting issue is going to
get resolved. Hey, if Omar420 can keep getting
through, then why not Khokan?

Ras

With that kind of attitude towards gratutious violence of which I am sure many on this forum will keep record, Omar will be hard pressed to get into any state bar. After all not too many bar boards are eager to let someone who wants to ``bash heads`` sit for their exam. I know because I have written enough recommendations for law schools and some of my students are in fairly prestigious law schools.

Just as the last alleged Nazi criminals are being tried after fifty years, Pakistan`s alleged war criminals will not go scot free. No amount of India bashing, as just as it often sounds, and no amount of legal threats will change the course of history.

To OMAR1974 Reply#133 1nd 134

Thanks a lot Omar for your reply.

Thanks for taking my comment about intellectual level lightly. I never meant to say what I said there, and the sentence was phrased wrong by me in a hurry. you should replace that ``low enough``with ``high enough`` because that is what I intended.

I think I cant compete with you in legal technialties as you are a future lawyer and I am basically a person dealing with technology, and I also dont intend to compete with you in this regard.

As for your threat for law suit etc, I think there will be enough Bangladeshis willing to give you a fight, as and when necessary. I am a neutral observer as far as this matter goes.

Inspite of your reply, you didnt still answer some questions raised by me. Never mind, I can anticipate your response following the pattern of your previous replies.

As for your offer of saving our lives, I am grateful to you for that. But along with that I would like to state that we Indians are more than capable of protecting our lives, so your offer can oly be reciprocated by us,not accepted unilaterally.

I can judge from your response that you are really enraged by the case made by some people against your uncle. I can understand your anguish, in light of the fact that you consider your uncle to be innocent. But having said that I should also state that you threatening other responders by punches and bullets etc is unwarranted.

If you want to win the debate, then present your case through words,not byintimidating others by threats of physical and other harm.

One last thing, India and Indians are not as evil as you are brainwashed to believe they are. I donot claim we are morality personified, but we are only as much selfish and opportunistic as ny other nation in the world. The world doesnot run on morality. As for invading East Pak, there were several motives, but if we consider only the motive of breaking a hostile nation, then also India did what Pakistan would do if there was turmoil in any part of India comparable to east Pak. So you are not on a morally superior ground, so please dont preach us.

Thanks for your ``cilized`` response and I hope I will continue getting civil responses from you. I hope we can be friends and apologies if I have said something that hurt you.

Your friend

Satyavadi.

While Bengalis ask for war crimes trials for the period 1971 in East Pakistan, which they call Occupied Bangladesh, how about if Pakistanis start to ask for war crimes trials of Indian soldiers in Indian Occupied Kashmir for Human rights violations over the past decade? If Rishi has any arguments against my proposal, the logic applies equally to the East Pakistan (Occupied Bangladesh) 1971 situation. Go ahead, I want to hear why there should be no war crimes trials in IOK (Indian Occupied Kashmir).

Btw, Sigalph, your comments amuse me. Maybe we`ll meet in court some day! Or a law school convention :) I already have my reccomendations, thanks, won`t be troubling you, or any Indian or Bengali profs for one anytime in this lifetime.:)

Wormwood Sigalph. Wormwood. Think on it.:)

Cheers,

Re: Omar1947

Yeah, Yeah.

Rishi

Re: Jamal.

War is tragic. I often wonder how far accountability can be taken up for actions committed during war. What else but brutality can you expect from all the participants during a war .? Which in turn brings about the question of the rationality of judging war time criminals and war crimes. ? And how far back can we go while we do this ? Can we now sit together and label all the red coats as war criminals or all the early settlers of the american continent as war criminals, or all the early indian muslim emperors as war criminals . This act of digging back into the past has to stop somewhere. Me, i would prefer to look into the future and deal with POTENTIAL WAR CRIMINALS than those of the past. Those who preach war, talk of nuking someone else, those who goebbelize war propaganda, those who are hate mongering and spreading canards about another nation are the ones who need to be tried , not those who participated in war some 25 years back. Like it or not, cold blooded murder of civilians, rape, pillaging and depraved acts are all but part of war. To avoid war crimes we need to first avoid war.

And in the above, i actually do support our resident shakespeare turned rambo. In fact an earlier posting of mine did support Z A Khan`s position. What amused me was the attitude this youngster is carrying on his head at this day and this age. ? But then that is a different story fit for another day.

Rishi

Omar1974:

Regarding India`s psychic abilities in divining the will of the Hindu majority in Hyderabad, Junagadh, (also Goa) without a plebiscite and not accepting Kashmiri sentiments without a plebiscite and your comments on lack of Indian principles.

You have to be dumb as a brick not to realize that Hindus were in no mood to support the MUSLIM League arguing for a country partly on the basis that the Hindu majority was not to be trusted. The very basis of the Muslim League made it a non-starter for Hindus. How the Hindus thought was clear and incontrevertible. They were not supporters of Pakistan by any means.

Muslims on the other hand were and still are divided - NWFP even elected a Congress Government. Jinnah was welcomed by a garland of shoes in Srinagar, Kashmir. Hence the need to ascertain Muslim views.

India operates on a single simple principle: that the people of British India could continue to occupy the same DEMOCRATIC political space despite myriad internal differences. This simple principle is what has driven Indian actions SUCCESSFULLY in Goa, Hyderabad, Punjab, Junagadh & Sikkim.

India has not been able to apply this principle succesfully in Kashmir and some states of the North-East. You on the other hand are consumed by blind hatred. Get over it.

Re: Jamal

And even if you still believe in judging war criminals , the burden of proof does rest on you and not on the alleged. You might have well slandered an innocent man who in reality may well have been not a part of those acts committed. ?

Just give this a moments thought. What if, just what if the person you choose to accuse was actually innocent ? Where would he seek his redressal for being falsely accused ? Well, au contraire, if you do have some tangible proof, then you might first be required to present them before you focus your attention on labelling someone a war criminal.

Re: Omar1947.

I did not want to reply to you at all, but then i think i can allow myself the privilege of this one.

My earlier posting should have answered your question. I do not consider the need for a tribunal to validate war crimes at all. Take it from someone who knows war first hand.

Omar1974:

Another factor in all of India`s armed actions in Goa, Sikkim, Junagadh & Hyderabad. In all of these cases, democratic India invaded monarchies and colonial goverments and handed over the administration to the local people. We are in fact very principled people. We applied the same principle in not trying to absorb Bangladesh wherein we handed govt back to the local people in 1971.

Letter from Saleh Tanveer to Brig. Z.A. Khan`s daughter:

Dear Ms. Muneezae Khan:

I don`t know for sure the culpability of your father.

However, I noted with interest his description of what transpired in Chittagong hill tracts. This includes the description of 50 urdu speaking people getting beheaded in Kaptai, allegedly by Mukti Bahini forces.

I and my family did know many people living there.

What we know is that a few urdu speaking people indeed got killed by an angry Bengali mob, bent on vengeance for what they heard had happened in Dhaka on March 25th night. The vengeance seekers included EPR personnel, enraged by the killing at the EPR barracks on March 25th night (I know since my home was in Dhanmondi, close

to the EPR camp).

The urdu speaking victims in Kaptai include Mr. Hamadoor Rahman, the project director and his two grown up sons, though their bodies were never recovered.

There were also a few more casualties of Urdu speaking people, but the number 50 is highly exaggerated.

Further, your father conveniently forgot to mention that a Pakistan army officer (perhaps one of his subordinates)in charge of reclaiming Kaptai

lined up Mr. Samsuddin, the Wapda project manager,

and Mr. Saleh, his associate and personally killed Mr. Samsuddin on the spot.

Mr. Saleh was saved when a Pathan guard interceded, stating that these two people were

responsible for saving many Urdu speaking people.

This happened on or around April 15th, `71.

Perhaps, you can ask your father and ascertain for yourself who the killer of Mr. Samsuddin was. For your sake, I hope it wasn`t him. The gusto with which the army killed was truly frightening; I only cited one of the instances.

Also, if your father would have been more forthright, he would have stated the Pakistani army position, known to its officers:

In order to save Pakistan, we must eliminate the hindus and awami league elements and their sympathizers, who are bent on destroying Pakistan.



The cause of Pakistan, the way they defined it,

seemed much more important than the lives of many innocents.

As part of this machine which committed planned and executed killing of a whole group of people, your father cannot completely escape guilt, even if he were not personally involved in the killing.

Sincerely,

Saleh Tanveer

Mr. Omar Mirza is Brigadier Z.A.Khan`s nephew. Ms. Muneezae Alam Khan is the infamous Brigadier`s daughter. So, it is quite understandable why the duo is trying to silence author Jamal Hasan by issuing threats of legal action. But these would remain empty threats even if the 25 year old Mr. Omar Mirza manages to clear the Bar Exam sometimes in the near future. Mr. Jamal Hasan has little cause to lose sleep over them.

Firstly, it is very unlikely that Brigadier Z.A.Khan will ever dare to leave the safety of Pakistan to sue Mr. Jamal Hasan. Mr. Omar Miza might be young enough, brash enough and naive enough to believe so, but the infamous Brigadier knows better. He has a good idea of the statutes and laws British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook was referring to when he declared recently: ``Anyone who carried out atrocities against the civilian population, anyone who gives orders for them to carry it out, or is complicity in those orders being given, and anyone who fails to prevent such orders or to prevent those orders being carried out - anyone in those categories is liable to face indictment before the international war crimes tribunal``.

Secondly, whatever Mr. Omar Mirza and Ms. Muneezae Alam Khan might write on Chowk, they will cause great grief to many a near and dear one if they dare to act as proxies for the infamous Brigadier by initiating a legal suit against Chowk and/or Mr. Jamal Hasan. The victims of the 1971 genocide will like nothing better. A Court of Law would be the perfect forum to revisit the crimes of the Pakistani military officers in 1971. The nephew and the daughter will be ill-advised to open this can of worms.

Mr. Jamal Hasan has no reason to lose sleep over threats to silence him. These are empty threats.

If Mr. Omar Mirza and Ms. Muneezae Alam Khan persists with such threats, Mr. Jamal Hasan should call the bluff by telling them off with, ``Be my guest.`` Let`s see where the trio (the infamous Brigadier, his daughter and his nephew)goes from there!!

Re : All and Kashmiris in particular (with special reference to his honourable OMAR420 - thanks RAS )

``

PoK citizens tell alarming tales of Pak plans



Pakistan has changed the demography of Pak occupied Kashmir by systematically settling outsiders there.

The statement came from Mumtaz Khan on behalf of the European Union, at the 55th session of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights in Geneva.

The session saw a large number of representatives from the PoK, where the state of human rights has touched its lowest, the EU said.

The EU public relations alleged that through another policy, Pakistan was brainwashing Kashmiri school children against their culture, language and history.

Things are worse in Gilgit and Baltistan, where though there is no insurgency or terrorism, there are intelligence agencies and the army. This is one region where people have no civil or constitutional rights, the EU alleged, and protests against this state of affairs are crushed by security forces and through sectarian clashes.

During the session, Zulfikar Khan Aziz, a political leader of Gilgit, said the Pakistani slogan for the right of self-determination for Kashmiris was a ploy to divert the world attention from PoK. Within the part of Kashmir under its occupation, Pakistan will not allow any movement for the right of self-determination. This slogan is only meant to incite Kashmiris on the Indian side, he said.

He said in Gilgit and Galtisan there were no job opportunities. ``We cannot even migrate to other countries because we are required to get exit permission from Pakistan though we are not part of Pakistan,`` he said.

In her statement, Helga Jurt said Pakistan nurtured the Harkat-ul-Ansar to unleash terror in Kashmir. This organisation, declared a terrorist outfit by the United States, claims of cleansing Kashmir of the Hindu minority.

``

This is the state in POK. Atleast in India, Kashmiris have absolute authority over their land, and no other Indian can even dream of settling there. Not even a muslim like me who is from the plains can settle in Kashmir. If the kashmiris are independant or a part of Pakistan, they can forget kashmiri and better learn punjabi. Kashmir would only end up as another Bangladesh.

Note : The BJP is a party which the kashmiris need to be aware of since this party wants to remove the article 370 . Anti Indian is stupid

.. Anti BJP makes sense.

iconoclast

note : Mr.OMAR......you call india as unprincipled. We all know what you did with Bangladesh and what you are doing with Kashmir. Leave India In peace with herself and her problems. We Indian Muslims have a tough time educating our christian and Hindu brethen that we are not stooges of Pakistan and you and the fascist Hindus of India will only make our lot tougher. Do us a favor

iconoclast