Jamal Hasan April 7, 1999
#17 Posted by mohajir on April 9, 1999 11:31:08 am
Since 1947, when The `Us`(Pakistanis) versus `Them` (Indians/Hindus) policy has started a chain reaction of hate towards Indians and Hindus which is silently becoming a part of our national characteristic and putting our lives on hold. We merely exist; dysfunctional and confused, purposeless and living with paralysing uncertainty.
In 1971 any Hindu in Bangladesh was considered pro-Indian and killed. Same is happening right now. Any violence in Karachi are elsewhere is blamed on RAW agents.
In 1971 any Hindu in Bangladesh was considered pro-Indian and killed. Same is happening right now. Any violence in Karachi are elsewhere is blamed on RAW agents.
#18 Posted by Truth on April 9, 1999 11:31:08 am
As an Indian, I am very proud of Indias role in the 1971 war.
We helped a discriminated people form their own country AND despite our own ideology that Curzon`s division of Bengal based on communal lines and the subsequent creation of East Pakistan was wrong, we did not try to enforce that view on the new nation of Bangladesh. We recognized that 25 years as a separate country had created differences between West Bengalis and Bangladeshis and they were not ready for a willing union of the two people.
I see more hopeful signs today with Calcutta-based and Dacca-based politicians developing direct state-to-state (or state-to-country if you wish) relations. It appears to me that in the fullness of time, Bangladesh-India relations will become like Nepal-India relations. An Indian rarely feels he is dealing with a foreigner when he interacts with a Nepali. This attitude will begin in INdia-Bangladesh relations. This assumes that there are no more Babri Masjid type incidents.
I have noticed that a number of Pakistani like to say they are a people with their backs to India and their face towards West Asia. That is their choice. Of course, if my neighbour said something like that to me, I would consider him remarkably rude and not want anything to do with them.
Anyhow, the Bangladeshis are forced to have their faces looking towards India and the day they put out a hand, we will embrace them with love.
We helped a discriminated people form their own country AND despite our own ideology that Curzon`s division of Bengal based on communal lines and the subsequent creation of East Pakistan was wrong, we did not try to enforce that view on the new nation of Bangladesh. We recognized that 25 years as a separate country had created differences between West Bengalis and Bangladeshis and they were not ready for a willing union of the two people.
I see more hopeful signs today with Calcutta-based and Dacca-based politicians developing direct state-to-state (or state-to-country if you wish) relations. It appears to me that in the fullness of time, Bangladesh-India relations will become like Nepal-India relations. An Indian rarely feels he is dealing with a foreigner when he interacts with a Nepali. This attitude will begin in INdia-Bangladesh relations. This assumes that there are no more Babri Masjid type incidents.
I have noticed that a number of Pakistani like to say they are a people with their backs to India and their face towards West Asia. That is their choice. Of course, if my neighbour said something like that to me, I would consider him remarkably rude and not want anything to do with them.
Anyhow, the Bangladeshis are forced to have their faces looking towards India and the day they put out a hand, we will embrace them with love.
#19 Posted by mhmaqbool on April 9, 1999 11:31:08 am
There is a lot of truth to what the author says, but the scale of events is highly exaggerated. However, it doesn`t make any difference whether 300,000 Bengalis died ( which is closer to to correct figure than the 3 million), or that there were a million refugees instead of the 10 million - atrocities were comitted and went unpunished. It was a dark chapter in Pakistan`s history that should not be forgotten.
It is also imperative that we should not turn a blind eye to similar atrocities being comitted by the Indian Army in Kashmir. History has a cruel way of repeating itself.
It is also imperative that we should not turn a blind eye to similar atrocities being comitted by the Indian Army in Kashmir. History has a cruel way of repeating itself.
#20 Posted by ferozk on April 9, 1999 4:11:10 pm
Re: firaq # 15
This is an attempt to explain, hopefully with Umair Khan`s permission, what the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia hopes to accomplish.
The nature of the NATO bombing is political and not military and it is tended to force Milosevic back to the table to agree to some sort of a deal on the Kosovar autonomy.
I had written a detailed answer, but due to static my PC froze and I lost that data....will try again later to give you a detailed reason behind NATO`s bombing.
This is an attempt to explain, hopefully with Umair Khan`s permission, what the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia hopes to accomplish.
The nature of the NATO bombing is political and not military and it is tended to force Milosevic back to the table to agree to some sort of a deal on the Kosovar autonomy.
I had written a detailed answer, but due to static my PC froze and I lost that data....will try again later to give you a detailed reason behind NATO`s bombing.
#21 Posted by poplu on April 9, 1999 6:31:54 pm
Letter to Mr. Ras Siddiqui April 9, 1999
Dear Mr. Siddiqui:
It is heartening to hear your voice in Chowk.
I agree with you that Kosovo and pre-1971 East Pakistan may not be fully equated. But overall the Balkan picture bears numerous parallels with the events of 1971. In today`s Washington Post one
reader, commenting on Kosovo wrote, ``... Kosovo is Serbian both legally and emotionally if not demographically``. Many Pakistani political thinkers now agree on one point that without the active participation of the Bengali Muslims Pakistan would not even born. Needless to say the Bengalis were left out from playing any
significant role in the nascent country. The rest is history.
I endorse the view that it is imperative to know the WHY of the 1971 genocide. The Freedom of Information Act would presumably reveal the
collusion of Yahya regime and Nixon Administration. It might also disclose the linkage of such war criminals like Rao Farman Ali with
certain Nixon staffers. You definitely have seen that information regarding atrocities in Guatemala have exposed the hidden role of certain US government officials in colluding with the brutal
Guatemalan military junta. Dr. Warren Kimball, a History Professor of Rutgers University is a vocal supporter of release of information in regard to certain dark chapters of US history. Because of people like him we could find out the real story behind the ouster of Dr. Mohammad Mosaddeq of Iran. Dr. Mosaddeq`s only ``mistake`` was that he
nationalised most of his country`s natural resources.
Regarding the issue of war crime, it is definitely important to know the WHO and HOW. Please do not feel ashamed, the conscientious Bengalis will never blame all Pakistanis because of a heinous crime committed by a section of the army. During that period, Pakistan defense forces had such humane officers like Rear Admiral Ahsan or
Air Marshall Asghar Khan.
You talked about the ``criminals that freely walk the streets``. In this regard I would like to point out a shame and disgrace of our nation- we not only rehabilitated Bengali war criminals but also let them go scot free. This was the mistake done by all of our administrations including Awami League. Now the present Prime Minister of Bangladesh who claims herself a champion of 1971
apparently more interested to put the killers of her father behind bar. I doubt she will do anything regarding the killers of the millions.
The good news is there is no statute of limitation for the criminals who committed a crime against humanity. The UK Televeision`s Channel Four exposed a few of the Bengali war criminals of 1971. Today, the video of the TV documentary titled ``War Crime File`` is available in the market. The process just started. One of the notorious executioner, called Ekatturer Jallad is enjoying the safety and security of North America. He is very much involved in religious activity; he is truly the epitome of a wolf in sheep`s clothing. Hopefully , someday he will be forced to answer for his sordid past.
The liberal and conscientious segment of the Pakistani society can help by building up public opinion against the war criminals by exposing the magnitude of the crimes of 1971 and the identity of the criminals.
Finally, like you I used to be a fan of Savar`s chamcham and sandesh.
Now I miss them very much.
Take care.
Sincerely yours,
Jamal Hasan
#22 Posted by satyavadi on April 9, 1999 6:31:54 pm
Hi,
I agree with mhmaqbool that any tragedy, irrespective of the number of people killed must be condemened. But thats where my agrrement ends. I donot agree with maqbool whe he says that the tragedy in kashmir is the same as that In Bangladesh. In Kashmir all the violence is due to the seccessionist terrorsits , many of whom are imported mercenaries. There Indian army is targetting terrorists only who are killing Hindus and also Pro India muslims. Again, I do believe that the security forces are comitting excesses , but thats an exception not a rule. I guess, we should deal with faltering army personnel with
a heavy hand, if we are not already doing so.
Also, Kashmiris are not oppressed people, because they enjoy or equal ( or in some matters more) rights than other Indian citizens. So if some people say that they want to separate only because of religion, a secular country like India cannot agree with them. So India will fight the terrorists and also help the people so that this problem gets solved soon, and so that it fades away, just as the one in Punjab did.
Its hight time now, some knowledgeabale people also start talking about the plight of the Kashmiris on the Pakistani side of the border.
Thanks
I agree with mhmaqbool that any tragedy, irrespective of the number of people killed must be condemened. But thats where my agrrement ends. I donot agree with maqbool whe he says that the tragedy in kashmir is the same as that In Bangladesh. In Kashmir all the violence is due to the seccessionist terrorsits , many of whom are imported mercenaries. There Indian army is targetting terrorists only who are killing Hindus and also Pro India muslims. Again, I do believe that the security forces are comitting excesses , but thats an exception not a rule. I guess, we should deal with faltering army personnel with
a heavy hand, if we are not already doing so.
Also, Kashmiris are not oppressed people, because they enjoy or equal ( or in some matters more) rights than other Indian citizens. So if some people say that they want to separate only because of religion, a secular country like India cannot agree with them. So India will fight the terrorists and also help the people so that this problem gets solved soon, and so that it fades away, just as the one in Punjab did.
Its hight time now, some knowledgeabale people also start talking about the plight of the Kashmiris on the Pakistani side of the border.
Thanks
#23 Posted by rishi on April 9, 1999 6:31:54 pm
Re: mhmaqbool
``It is also imperative that we should not turn a blind eye to similar atrocities being comitted by the Indian Army in Kashmir. History has a cruel way of repeating itself.``
- I have answered this ad nauseum and still let me repeat it again how much ever unhappy it is going to make you.
-- India does not discriminate against Kashmiris (muslims or not). Pakistan did that with the former east pakistanis.
-- India gives the kashmiris more privilege than what the rest of the country enjoys. No Indian other than a kashmiri can buy land or property in Kashmir. This is autonomy at its highest level.
-- India provides constitutional guarantee to the kashmiris on a scale which no other indian enjoys
-- Kashmir has its own state government. It is elected by their own people and functions for them. They are not ruled by new delhi ( except during periods of governors rule .. which any other state be it gujarat , orissa , bihar or Kashmir does go through).
-- Kashmir is heavily subsidised by the central government . Thus a Tamilian or a Bengali is paying Taxes for the upkeep of Kashmir. East Pakistanis never enjoyed such privileges.
-- Today the central government in India (the supposedly Fascist BJP) is in power with the support of the Kashmiri National Conference. Fat chance for the Bangladeshi to dream of these with the West Pakistanis.
-- Pakistanis treated Bangladesh as a step child. India treats the rest of India as a step child compared to Kashmir.
-- Human rights violations by the Indian army does happen, but atleast the Indian government is democratic enough to have its actions audited by the public and the press and the human rights commissions. Vajpayee is not a dictator like Milosevic, nor is he a pseudo dictator like Bhutto.
This is something which a person from a country which was predominantly under Military rule , where one state (punjab) subjugates all the other states based on RACE, and superiority and numerical strength, where people are brought up in a monotheistic quasi-theocratic state will probably fail to understand. Granted such feelings of racial superiority exists in India too. But the numbers game of the democratic system, puts the entire country under the feet of a politician like a Jayalalitha from Tamil Nadu or an Abdullah from Kashmir.
Please Understand the differences before you voice your opinion .
If West Pakistan had given autonomy to east pakistan, if east pakistanis were treated as more than equals by west pakistanis, if east pakistan had had a democratic government which helped keep the central government in power, if human rights had been allowed in east pakistan , and if pakistan by itself had been a democratic country where the voice of the majority was heard,,, then you can compare India and Pakistan in relation to Kashmir and Bangladesh.
If you don`t do that my friend, it is just your hypocrisy and your incapacity and dreams of grandeur that are doing the trick.
Wake up and smell the coffeee
Rishi
``It is also imperative that we should not turn a blind eye to similar atrocities being comitted by the Indian Army in Kashmir. History has a cruel way of repeating itself.``
- I have answered this ad nauseum and still let me repeat it again how much ever unhappy it is going to make you.
-- India does not discriminate against Kashmiris (muslims or not). Pakistan did that with the former east pakistanis.
-- India gives the kashmiris more privilege than what the rest of the country enjoys. No Indian other than a kashmiri can buy land or property in Kashmir. This is autonomy at its highest level.
-- India provides constitutional guarantee to the kashmiris on a scale which no other indian enjoys
-- Kashmir has its own state government. It is elected by their own people and functions for them. They are not ruled by new delhi ( except during periods of governors rule .. which any other state be it gujarat , orissa , bihar or Kashmir does go through).
-- Kashmir is heavily subsidised by the central government . Thus a Tamilian or a Bengali is paying Taxes for the upkeep of Kashmir. East Pakistanis never enjoyed such privileges.
-- Today the central government in India (the supposedly Fascist BJP) is in power with the support of the Kashmiri National Conference. Fat chance for the Bangladeshi to dream of these with the West Pakistanis.
-- Pakistanis treated Bangladesh as a step child. India treats the rest of India as a step child compared to Kashmir.
-- Human rights violations by the Indian army does happen, but atleast the Indian government is democratic enough to have its actions audited by the public and the press and the human rights commissions. Vajpayee is not a dictator like Milosevic, nor is he a pseudo dictator like Bhutto.
This is something which a person from a country which was predominantly under Military rule , where one state (punjab) subjugates all the other states based on RACE, and superiority and numerical strength, where people are brought up in a monotheistic quasi-theocratic state will probably fail to understand. Granted such feelings of racial superiority exists in India too. But the numbers game of the democratic system, puts the entire country under the feet of a politician like a Jayalalitha from Tamil Nadu or an Abdullah from Kashmir.
Please Understand the differences before you voice your opinion .
If West Pakistan had given autonomy to east pakistan, if east pakistanis were treated as more than equals by west pakistanis, if east pakistan had had a democratic government which helped keep the central government in power, if human rights had been allowed in east pakistan , and if pakistan by itself had been a democratic country where the voice of the majority was heard,,, then you can compare India and Pakistan in relation to Kashmir and Bangladesh.
If you don`t do that my friend, it is just your hypocrisy and your incapacity and dreams of grandeur that are doing the trick.
Wake up and smell the coffeee
Rishi
#24 Posted by Ras Siddiqui on April 10, 1999 12:17:12 am
Re: Jamal Bhai, let us add that ``Dohi`` from Bogra
to that cham cham and sandesh from Savar.
I also want to thank all Bangladeshis here for assisting my mother during her recent trip to
Makkah for Hajj. She, along with my aunt told me
that the friendliest people she met in Saudi were
the Bangladeshis while KNOWING FULL WELL that
they were Pakistani.
This just adds to the extent of the tragedy that
Bengalis, without whom we would not have Pakistan
were treated so shabbily by us.
In the US we pray alongside each other in the same
mosques, we can talk about world problems and
during cricket matches they CHEER THE PAKISTANI
TEAM when India and Pakistan play. What else can I feel but ashamed today at the events of 1971?
Ras
Re: Satyavdi & Rishi
Coffee may not be our favorite Pakistani drink but
it appears that you both are making the same
mistake on Kashmir that most Pakistanis were and are making on Bangladesh.
#25 Posted by bobbybasu on April 10, 1999 8:37:01 am
To: Ras Siddique and other Pakistani brothers.
Re: Comparing Kashmir to Bangladesh.
From your response it still appears that you believe what you want to believe rather than believe what your conscience says.
Are you refuting the points which Rishi has mentioned as some kind of Indian propaganda, if you are, then probably you will always interpret truth as it suits you. We ordinary Indians question the need for Special Status to Kashmir as our state is based on equality. Our constitution guarantees them every kind of support. It has political representatives from Kashmir itself and not from New Delhi. So there is a democratic structure and one cannot say whats happening there is oppression.
If you say that Kashmiri`s have the right to self determination because they are majority Muslims and have a separate identity than other Indians, then I would say India has a larger Muslim population and they happily co-exist with their counterparts. In India, we have many lingusitic, caste, religion, pockets different from each other with strong identities of their own and so as per your logic right to a country of their own. If you still stick to this point of view then let us go back to the status of 1947 of undivided India and let each community decide wherever they are in majority decide their map, name of their country through self determination. I`m sure alongwith India there wouldn`t be anything called Pakistan because you too have distinct four ethnic groups who have every right to self-determination and if given a choice they would prefer their own independent countries, let this rule apply to all, why only to Kashmir.
The repurcussions in the eventuality of Kashmir separating because of this reason will result in nothing short of catastrophe for both India and Pakistan. I would like to suggest that it will be better for all to maintain this status quo and get on with our other pressing problems together.
Re: Comparing Kashmir to Bangladesh.
From your response it still appears that you believe what you want to believe rather than believe what your conscience says.
Are you refuting the points which Rishi has mentioned as some kind of Indian propaganda, if you are, then probably you will always interpret truth as it suits you. We ordinary Indians question the need for Special Status to Kashmir as our state is based on equality. Our constitution guarantees them every kind of support. It has political representatives from Kashmir itself and not from New Delhi. So there is a democratic structure and one cannot say whats happening there is oppression.
If you say that Kashmiri`s have the right to self determination because they are majority Muslims and have a separate identity than other Indians, then I would say India has a larger Muslim population and they happily co-exist with their counterparts. In India, we have many lingusitic, caste, religion, pockets different from each other with strong identities of their own and so as per your logic right to a country of their own. If you still stick to this point of view then let us go back to the status of 1947 of undivided India and let each community decide wherever they are in majority decide their map, name of their country through self determination. I`m sure alongwith India there wouldn`t be anything called Pakistan because you too have distinct four ethnic groups who have every right to self-determination and if given a choice they would prefer their own independent countries, let this rule apply to all, why only to Kashmir.
The repurcussions in the eventuality of Kashmir separating because of this reason will result in nothing short of catastrophe for both India and Pakistan. I would like to suggest that it will be better for all to maintain this status quo and get on with our other pressing problems together.
#26 Posted by ASK on April 10, 1999 11:24:38 am
re: Truth
Bangladesh-India relations are already quite like Nepal-India relations. At IIT,Kharagpur (my alma mater) we had quite a few students from Bangladesh as also from Nepal, Sri Lanka, Palestine and Nigeria. Lankans, Bangladeshis and Nepalese were completely assimilated into the student body and even held a number of elected student posts. One of my batchmates (north-Indian hindu male) married another from Bangladesh(muslim female).
Recently a Bangladeshi book fair was organized in Calcutta and was received very well. Bangla literature from one side of the border is already quite popular on the other. With the recent bus service between Dhaka and Calcutta (note the almost casual way in which it was started contrary to the hype for the Delhi-Lahore service) relations will receive another boost. Granted that there are some thorny issues like water sharing, royalty for Indian books, etc. but I am sure these will be resolved even better in the future. For example, a joint action by India, Bangladesh and China can be started for better water sharing, perhaps by building a few dams on the Brahmaputra (in Tibet) and Ganga (more upstream than Farakka) to help relieve flooding in BD and Assam. The finance minister has already suggested a common currency on his recent trip to Dhaka to relieve the trade deficit (which can lead to the copyright and other issues being resolved). I hope relations in future are defined more along such positive directions and perhaps more importantly people are made aware of them.
Ashish
Bangladesh-India relations are already quite like Nepal-India relations. At IIT,Kharagpur (my alma mater) we had quite a few students from Bangladesh as also from Nepal, Sri Lanka, Palestine and Nigeria. Lankans, Bangladeshis and Nepalese were completely assimilated into the student body and even held a number of elected student posts. One of my batchmates (north-Indian hindu male) married another from Bangladesh(muslim female).
Recently a Bangladeshi book fair was organized in Calcutta and was received very well. Bangla literature from one side of the border is already quite popular on the other. With the recent bus service between Dhaka and Calcutta (note the almost casual way in which it was started contrary to the hype for the Delhi-Lahore service) relations will receive another boost. Granted that there are some thorny issues like water sharing, royalty for Indian books, etc. but I am sure these will be resolved even better in the future. For example, a joint action by India, Bangladesh and China can be started for better water sharing, perhaps by building a few dams on the Brahmaputra (in Tibet) and Ganga (more upstream than Farakka) to help relieve flooding in BD and Assam. The finance minister has already suggested a common currency on his recent trip to Dhaka to relieve the trade deficit (which can lead to the copyright and other issues being resolved). I hope relations in future are defined more along such positive directions and perhaps more importantly people are made aware of them.
Ashish
#27 Posted by amit on April 10, 1999 11:24:38 am
Re: Rishi and Bobbybasu
The Kashmir situation may not be similar to Bangladesh but there is a legacy of partition that we cannot ignore. If Kashmir was a British province, it would have certainly gone to Pakistan since it shares a land connection with the rest of Pakistan. India took over Hyderabad and Junagadh which had muslim rulers with hindu majority which we felt was quite justified. Therefore, Pakistan feels justified in pursuing Kashmir. In addition, I feel that we Indians have done a lousy job in the administration and development of Kashmir. Successive congress governments at the center intefered and dismissed democratically elected governments, played power games with the Kashmiris and allowed massive rigging in polls. As a result, most of the Kashmir governments were phenomenally inept and corrupt.
At a social level we never bothered to integrate Kashmiri muslims into Indian society. If you look at education institutions (IIT, IIM etc.), public sector, private sector in India, you can find people from all parts of India including Kashmiri pundits. However, you rarely find a Kashmiri muslim. Since Kashmiri muslims and pundits belong to the same stock, it is not possible to accept that one group is overwhelmingly meritorius over the rest. This omission may not be deliberate but it is indicative of a need to do something for the socio-economic development of Kashmir. Unfortunately we are so caught up in the security issues, we do not realize the need for a long term strategy. The rebellion in Kashmir in 1989 had very strong popular support and we cannot deny that. We may have succeeded in crushing it but we need to look at the root cause.
As far as Pakistan is concerned, we need to move away from the zero-sum game over Kashmir. What is the problem in finding some sort of compromise solution with the Pakistanis ? For e.g. we can increase the autonomy level in Kashmir and collaborate on Kashmir`s defence and foreign affairs with Pakistan. We can allow free movement of people and commerce between Kashmir and Pakistan, with adequate security provisions. We can have independent human rights observers located there. However, we should demand that Pakistan must be a partner with India and invest in the peaceful socio-economic development of Kashmir with hard cash and resources.
The Kashmir situation may not be similar to Bangladesh but there is a legacy of partition that we cannot ignore. If Kashmir was a British province, it would have certainly gone to Pakistan since it shares a land connection with the rest of Pakistan. India took over Hyderabad and Junagadh which had muslim rulers with hindu majority which we felt was quite justified. Therefore, Pakistan feels justified in pursuing Kashmir. In addition, I feel that we Indians have done a lousy job in the administration and development of Kashmir. Successive congress governments at the center intefered and dismissed democratically elected governments, played power games with the Kashmiris and allowed massive rigging in polls. As a result, most of the Kashmir governments were phenomenally inept and corrupt.
At a social level we never bothered to integrate Kashmiri muslims into Indian society. If you look at education institutions (IIT, IIM etc.), public sector, private sector in India, you can find people from all parts of India including Kashmiri pundits. However, you rarely find a Kashmiri muslim. Since Kashmiri muslims and pundits belong to the same stock, it is not possible to accept that one group is overwhelmingly meritorius over the rest. This omission may not be deliberate but it is indicative of a need to do something for the socio-economic development of Kashmir. Unfortunately we are so caught up in the security issues, we do not realize the need for a long term strategy. The rebellion in Kashmir in 1989 had very strong popular support and we cannot deny that. We may have succeeded in crushing it but we need to look at the root cause.
As far as Pakistan is concerned, we need to move away from the zero-sum game over Kashmir. What is the problem in finding some sort of compromise solution with the Pakistanis ? For e.g. we can increase the autonomy level in Kashmir and collaborate on Kashmir`s defence and foreign affairs with Pakistan. We can allow free movement of people and commerce between Kashmir and Pakistan, with adequate security provisions. We can have independent human rights observers located there. However, we should demand that Pakistan must be a partner with India and invest in the peaceful socio-economic development of Kashmir with hard cash and resources.
#28 Posted by iconoclast on April 10, 1999 4:17:57 pm
even though i am a muslim.. i proud that i am not fundamentalistic about my religion. I have been to temples and churches (though not worshipped ) in India along with my hindu and christian friends and i essentially believe that to each his own. But i am indeed amazed by the fact that my hindu friends in particular have at many a times have prayed in the local dargah with me. My guess, is their pluralistic nature with regards to their religion makes them open to all religions. Which is essentially why India as a country is remaining secular still.
Somewhere along the lines, Muslims of the world are confused between the concept of the state and the church. Why is it that almost all the major problems that plague the world today have their roots in Islam ? Take it as Bosnia, Serbia, Iran, Algeria, Egypt, Sudan, kashmir, Afghanistan, Phillipines, Indonesia, Timor etc., etc., This raging fire of fundamentalist Islam does not pit muslims against christians or hindus alone but even against the radicals against the moderates in states like Egypt, Turkey and Algeria and even to some extent in Pakistan. It is time we take a deep look at ourselves.
iconoclast
Somewhere along the lines, Muslims of the world are confused between the concept of the state and the church. Why is it that almost all the major problems that plague the world today have their roots in Islam ? Take it as Bosnia, Serbia, Iran, Algeria, Egypt, Sudan, kashmir, Afghanistan, Phillipines, Indonesia, Timor etc., etc., This raging fire of fundamentalist Islam does not pit muslims against christians or hindus alone but even against the radicals against the moderates in states like Egypt, Turkey and Algeria and even to some extent in Pakistan. It is time we take a deep look at ourselves.
iconoclast
#29 Posted by rishi on April 10, 1999 4:17:57 pm
Re: Ras
``Coffee may not be our favorite Pakistani drink but it appears that you both are making the same mistake on Kashmir that most Pakistanis were and are making on Bangladesh. ``
-- hmm, do you know that you guys are missing something. Often, i end up arguing with my chaiwala friends from Bengal and Kerala about the delights of Coffea Arabica.
Coffee, a native of Ethiopia was first introduced into the Arab world centuries before in the what is now Yemen. For centuries, Arab and then Ottoman traders enjoyed a monopoly on this magically invigorating plant, and to protect it they enforced a strict ban on export of viable seeds of the mother plant. Not until 1690 were plants successfully smuggled to Ceylon and from there to Java, allowing the Dutch East Indies Company to join in competition for the worlds burgeoning coffee thirst. Today more than 85 countries grow it, and coffee is the world’s number one export commodity by dollar value. Still, some legends linger: the botanical name Coffea Arabica is owed to this passage through Yemen, which was formerly just a mountainous corner of a vast exotic land known to us simply as ``Arabia``.
Amazing that Pakistan does not consider Coffee as its favorite food inspite of its Arabic heritage. It is probably due to their cultural similarity with the chai loving northern indians. The south of India with which i am reasonably familiar with however loves coffee (especially Tamil Nad and Karnatak ) .
That apart, even on a point by point basis, you would be hard pressed to draw an exact parallel between kashmir and bangladesh. By the same logic which you quote, bangladesh can be equated with tamil nad (which incidentally was the first state in India which asked for a seperate statehood ) or Assam, or Punjab or Kashmir or any state of the Indian Union.
But if you hold the religion card then again you would expose your ignorance of the secularism on which India is founded upon (however slender this might be today).
Kashmiri Hindu Pundits are butchered in Kashmir on a regular basis and you do read them in your newspapers, Families are lined up and shot in cold blood by the Muslim fundamentalists . Has any bangladeshi liberation fighters done something even remotely parallel to the Biharis .. ?
Coffee or not, don`t kid yourself. The issue here is different.
Re: Amit.
I disagree with you when you state that the Indian Government did not actively try to develop the lot of Kashmiris. By that same token, the Indian Government can be accused of not actively developing the seven sister states of the east, or orissa or madhyapradesh or even Bihar. It is up to the state governments to develop their states.
And as per your other statement of the Indian government dismissing the elected governments of Kashmir, well did they not do the same with all the other states at one point or the other (ask the DMK about the number of times they were dismissed ). There was never a pogrom against the kashmiris in India. Atleast the sikhs can accuse the others of that during the delhi riots. But i beg your pardon, the kashmiris cannot. What is happening in Kashmir is that a sect of religious fundamentalists, with the active connivance and abetment of a neighbouring are are utitlising the economic disarray and the resultant disenchantment of the people along with their religious sentiments to whip up anti-establishment sentiments. However till date, there has been no refugee movement from kashmir to even POK let alone pakistan. Take Pakistan geographically away from kashmir and kashmir will cease to be problem. Put Pakistan next to TamilNad or Kerala geographically, and then these states today would have been kashmirs.
Rishi
Rishi
``Coffee may not be our favorite Pakistani drink but it appears that you both are making the same mistake on Kashmir that most Pakistanis were and are making on Bangladesh. ``
-- hmm, do you know that you guys are missing something. Often, i end up arguing with my chaiwala friends from Bengal and Kerala about the delights of Coffea Arabica.
Coffee, a native of Ethiopia was first introduced into the Arab world centuries before in the what is now Yemen. For centuries, Arab and then Ottoman traders enjoyed a monopoly on this magically invigorating plant, and to protect it they enforced a strict ban on export of viable seeds of the mother plant. Not until 1690 were plants successfully smuggled to Ceylon and from there to Java, allowing the Dutch East Indies Company to join in competition for the worlds burgeoning coffee thirst. Today more than 85 countries grow it, and coffee is the world’s number one export commodity by dollar value. Still, some legends linger: the botanical name Coffea Arabica is owed to this passage through Yemen, which was formerly just a mountainous corner of a vast exotic land known to us simply as ``Arabia``.
Amazing that Pakistan does not consider Coffee as its favorite food inspite of its Arabic heritage. It is probably due to their cultural similarity with the chai loving northern indians. The south of India with which i am reasonably familiar with however loves coffee (especially Tamil Nad and Karnatak ) .
That apart, even on a point by point basis, you would be hard pressed to draw an exact parallel between kashmir and bangladesh. By the same logic which you quote, bangladesh can be equated with tamil nad (which incidentally was the first state in India which asked for a seperate statehood ) or Assam, or Punjab or Kashmir or any state of the Indian Union.
But if you hold the religion card then again you would expose your ignorance of the secularism on which India is founded upon (however slender this might be today).
Kashmiri Hindu Pundits are butchered in Kashmir on a regular basis and you do read them in your newspapers, Families are lined up and shot in cold blood by the Muslim fundamentalists . Has any bangladeshi liberation fighters done something even remotely parallel to the Biharis .. ?
Coffee or not, don`t kid yourself. The issue here is different.
Re: Amit.
I disagree with you when you state that the Indian Government did not actively try to develop the lot of Kashmiris. By that same token, the Indian Government can be accused of not actively developing the seven sister states of the east, or orissa or madhyapradesh or even Bihar. It is up to the state governments to develop their states.
And as per your other statement of the Indian government dismissing the elected governments of Kashmir, well did they not do the same with all the other states at one point or the other (ask the DMK about the number of times they were dismissed ). There was never a pogrom against the kashmiris in India. Atleast the sikhs can accuse the others of that during the delhi riots. But i beg your pardon, the kashmiris cannot. What is happening in Kashmir is that a sect of religious fundamentalists, with the active connivance and abetment of a neighbouring are are utitlising the economic disarray and the resultant disenchantment of the people along with their religious sentiments to whip up anti-establishment sentiments. However till date, there has been no refugee movement from kashmir to even POK let alone pakistan. Take Pakistan geographically away from kashmir and kashmir will cease to be problem. Put Pakistan next to TamilNad or Kerala geographically, and then these states today would have been kashmirs.
Rishi
Rishi
#30 Posted by rishi on April 10, 1999 4:17:57 pm
Re: Ras and others
Give anyone access to unlimited funds, a host country to aid and abet his ambitions , a few disgruntled elements in an economically underdeveloped but perfectly democratic and secular country and a few cards to play with (such as religious, cultural, ethnic or linguistic ) and they can create a kashmir or a balkans anywhere.
What is good for the goose is good for the gander. So what would prevent india from playing the same bangladesh card now with Baluchistan, Sind or the NWFP in Pakistan. ?
Rishi
Give anyone access to unlimited funds, a host country to aid and abet his ambitions , a few disgruntled elements in an economically underdeveloped but perfectly democratic and secular country and a few cards to play with (such as religious, cultural, ethnic or linguistic ) and they can create a kashmir or a balkans anywhere.
What is good for the goose is good for the gander. So what would prevent india from playing the same bangladesh card now with Baluchistan, Sind or the NWFP in Pakistan. ?
Rishi
#31 Posted by Ras Siddiqui on April 11, 1999 10:23:24 pm
RE: Rishi #31 and 33
There is not much confusion here. I am proud of my South Asian (non-Arab) roots and will stick to tea
even if it somehow connects me to North Indians (if you guys don`t mind being related to Muslims).
We have a religion in common with the Arabs but a
civilization shared with that of India and Afghanistan.
On Kashmir you are dead wrong. There are no UN resolutions on the disputed status of Sindh, Baluchistan, NWFP or Punjab.
My government (United States) still recognizes
that all of Jammu and Kashmir is disputed territory. That is not the case with Assam or Tamil Nadu.
Bangladesh was an exceptional case where the MAJORITY of a country was forced to part company with the MINORITY because of the lack of vision
amongst the ``Ruled Elite`` (Not Ruling Elite) of
West Pakistan. I cannot think of any other time in history where a Majority has parted and formed it`s own state leaving the miniority to carry on with the name of the country of origin.
Anyway my point was that India has alienated the Muslim Kashmiris like the West Pakistanis alienated their Bengali population. And you and I can discuss that here till kingdom come but please do not end up convincing yourself that a ``Proxy War`` is all that is going on in Kashmir. We West
Pakistanis were fed the same Bull during the Bangladesh crisis that our soldiers were fighting Indians and not Muslim Bengalis.
Kashmir is more like Kosovo then Bangladesh, that it has a population who has more in common with one country and a territory claimed by another.
As far as your implied threat of India doing the same to Pakistan by working on Sindh, Baluchistan
and the NWFP, it appears that India is already active in both major groups in Sindh. It is for the Pakistani leadership to see that this influence is limited to nuisance value but yes India can take advantage of the economic problems of Pakistan and try and undo the rest of it.
But your security and political establishment appears to be mature enough to understand that the
undoing of Pakistan will mean the undoing of India
(I am not talking of a military conflict with the nuclear element here) but that the ideological wave that has crept into Kashmir will become a Tsunami into India where 300 million Muslims will
upset the Brahminic domination of Bharat.
The only way out is a negotiated settlement of Kashmir and to bolster the rocky economy of Chai
drinking Pakistan.
Ras
#32 Posted by mshah on April 12, 1999 1:15:38 am
Dear Mr. Jamal Hasan
Your article made very interesting reading. Like most emotional yet ignorant people you have very ardently made use of words to cover up your lack of information. I do hope you are aware of the fact that calling a person some thing like a war crimnal surmounts to slander and defamation. I hope you can substantiate your calim with some legal proof. Other wise you will soon be talking to some lawyers and finding out what it really means to make unfounded accusations.
Muneezae Khan
D/o Brig. ZA Khan
Your article made very interesting reading. Like most emotional yet ignorant people you have very ardently made use of words to cover up your lack of information. I do hope you are aware of the fact that calling a person some thing like a war crimnal surmounts to slander and defamation. I hope you can substantiate your calim with some legal proof. Other wise you will soon be talking to some lawyers and finding out what it really means to make unfounded accusations.
Muneezae Khan
D/o Brig. ZA Khan
Interact Index
Latest Interacts
- masadi: hamid writes "tahmed mian, ....... The Correct Turn
- masadi: Kulharee sahib, your writing... Hop Aboard the Interfaith
- treetop: wonder the nun survived... The Correct Turn
- KaalChakra: hamidm, don't knock Pakistanis... The Correct Turn
- MantoLives: PS you might want... Politics of PPP and
- MantoLives: PS you might want... Politics of PPP and
- hamidm2: Re: # 143 tahmed mian, ....... The Correct Turn
- KaalChakra: NB, at the end... The Correct Turn








reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content