Balkan Tragedy: A Re-enactment of the 1971 Genocide in Bangladesh

Pakistanis have shamelessly ignored the genocide of Bengalis. I guess it is easy to find fault in others and over-look our own - human phsycology.

A friend of mine who runs an organization that helps female victims of war and torture, has visited Bengladesh several times and worked with the women who were raped by the Pakistani jawans and had their breasts cut-off as well. If this is not genocide and ethnic cleansing then what is it?

Prof. Lee Rose of UC Berkeley in his book on Bengladesh has given detail accounts of atrocities committed by Pakistan. Gen Niazi (who was made the escape goat)in his book ``Fall of Dacca``, points out other culprits, such as Tikka
Khan (aka Butcher of Bengal, and then Butcher of Balochistan) and Arbab
Jehanzeb, Sahibzada Yaqub Khan, etc, etc, etc.

One of the culprits, Arbab Jehanzeb
(a Brigadier at that time)was recalled from Dacca by GHQ because he had
went way over board in looting and stealing, just before the fall. He was
demoted too, but then Zia made him Left. Gen. and appointed him the
Martial Law administrator of Sindh.

The fact of the matter is that most Pakistanis do not want to confront the
Bangladesh tragedy. And i think it`s about time!!!

The tragic thing is that some of the culprits were later involved in
massacring about 5-10,000 Balochs from 73-77. Their towns and villages were bombed with helicopter gunships and their wells were poisened.

Re: Jamal Hasan

An excellent article, much in the tradition of an oral history listing the crimes of the Pakistani Army during the December War of 1971. There is no question that Pakistan must confront the consequences of its actions and clear its national conscience by tendering an apology to the people of Bangladesh. In the words of the late Sir Winston Churchill, it was certainly not our finest hour and this moral stain has to be removed from the fabric of our national morality.

My only disagreement with the article was its attempts to compare the Pakistani crime, in Bangladesh, with the crimes of Nazi Germany during the Second World War. You can not, despite your best intentions, compare genocide. Genocide, by defination, is a crime against humanity and no one genocide is more worse than the other. The comparsion of genocides not only demeans the crime by suggesting that one is of a lesser evil than the other and thus, not trully worthy of our empathy, but it also devalues the human misery and emotional suffering endured by the victims.

Humanity should vent its aroused fury against any genocide committed, regardless of its geographic and historical orientation, and should not seek to balance the crime on a spectrum of morality. The evil of genocide should be seen through a prism of a Manchian perspective and not through varying scales of gray ambiguity. To do otherwise is to proffer a dubious pro forma logic of appeasement justifying our own inaction and a lack of humanity.

One interesting part is that US was on the side of Pakistan.

Re Ferozk:

I don`t think the writer is comparing two genocides, rather drawing a parallel.

Hi everyone

Hi everyone,

I am new to Chowk and am impressed by the uncensored atricles appearing in Chowk.

I have a question for all Bangladeshis :

How do you feel about India ?

Do u feel that India helped you in gaining freedom and accepted 10 million refugees in your bad times?

I have read many times in Paki newspapers that Banglsdeshis prefer Pakistan to India . Is that true ? If yes , is it just because Pak is an Islamic country ?

And a general question to everyone : What is this crap about Pan Islamic brother hood... Can`t you gusy be loyal to your own country ( Spcially for Muslims in India : some of whom proudly say they love Pak more than India and for Pakis who praise every country in the world but India (got this impression from newspapers) and always look up to those Arabs for help and stuff )

I dont know whether this question fits in here :

But do you guys really feel that Muslims in India are discriminated against. I think from my experience there is no suchj thing in India...

I will await your responses.

Jamal Bhai,
good to see you here but I disagree
with the linkage with Kosovo and former East
Pakistan.
As I have told my friends from Bangladesh on a
number of occasions, we the Pakistani and Bangladeshi public still do not know the WHY
of the Bengali Genocide of 1971. And it is my
firm belief that as more is learnt through the
Freedom of Information Act in this country (USA) as documents get declassified, the reason (if any)
of this disaster will become known.
What needs further study is that we DO know the deeds of the executioners but still do not know
of the collective crimes of our people that we paid for and WHO passed the verdict on us. And yes the Pakistani military carried out a very dirty job and LOST BADLY as it deserved but I am still not satisfied with what is known and with the criminals that freely walk the streets.
I will leave it at that for now but with a message
for fellow Pakistanis of my generation. It is
time that we look seriously into this subject and
demand that the Hamoodur Rehman Commission Report
be released to the general public. And further
on let us offer an apology to the people of Bangladesh.
What I am trying to say to Pakistanis is that
we should not make excuses like

``Oh Ji kutch nahi si bas Bhutto nay Ghaddari keeti``

Ras

It is human nature to see the same situation very differently depending on your point of view, and to filter out things that do not match one`s pre-conceived notions. So, one side`s oppressors are the brave sons of the other side. Nevertheless, a rapist is a rapist whether or not in uniform, and a man who kills other than for self-defence is a murderer whether or not he is in uniform. But this problem wont go away until we have some kind of global system of criminal justice whereby criminals have no place to hide. As a Pakistani, I can only say how sorry I am for the crimes committed by the army in 1971, and that no attempt was made to arrest and punish the criminals.

this was supposed to be about kosovo; however, the bengal parallel seems to be drawing fiery response. include me amongst the fiery responders!

the rape of bengal has continued for ages. it has to do w/ the richness of the land, the basically spiritual and peace-loving nature of its people and, most importantly, the highly-charged, super-talented bengali intelligensia.

the story goes back eons, but lets begin with the near-past.

the brits made their fortune playing one bengali against the other; they created laws that slowly but surely killed every lucrative industry in bengal. they played muslims against hindus, they played weavers against butchers, they practiced the epitome of their policy of divide and rule and reaped riches.

then came jinnah and gandhi. if ever a case was to be made by either, it was initiated in bengal. what`s that proverb the americans have ``where ohio goes, so goes the country?`` or is it omaha!? whatever! well, in the sub-continent, it was always ``where calcutta goes, so goes india``. congress and league played their power games on bengali turf - they won peace there, they lost lives there, they forced the gora to quit india from the platform, and when bengal was won, pakistan was made!

1971 is but a link in this ongoing chain. why blame only the army - why not the whole rotten fabric of governance? pak army atrocities are irreconcilable, but it does, afterall, boil down to ``bhutto ney ghaddari keeti``. it was his hunger for power that instigated the operation. add to that the treacherous and defiling manner in which we have ``mis``-taught history over the years - always caricaturing the bengali as the dark, undernourished dravidian and his western counterpart as the tall, muscular, aryan - the superior being. we were never taught the writings of tagore, we were never told of the rich culture of bengal. sure, we learnt of the gallantry of siraj-ud-daula but we thought he was a west pakistani residing in bengal - rather like a blonde, blue-eyed jesus!?? we also learnt about the super fine muslin produced in bengal, but we thought it was made in lyallpur and shipped to calcutta!

dont kid yourself, it isnt just about religion, it isnt about west and east pakistan - it was about west and east INDIA as well. the pandits of kashmir consider themselves (and their counterpart muslims of the area) better beings than, say, the punjabis of the plateau. the dilliwalas have similar aversion to the biharis. apartheid is a multi-layered phenomenon - would that it was as cut and dried as the pak army against the unarmed bengali. the wounds of history run deeper - much deeper. it has not ended with the severing of an arm, east pakistan. the chornicle continues with sikhs and hindus, sindhis and mohajirs, punjabis and - well- punjabis!! we must be the only idiot race in the world that cuts off its nose to spite its face.

until we make radical, painful changes to our education system, until we force ourselves to truly believe in the democratic system, until we put our money where our gaping mouths are and actually disqualify the marauding, looting, lying, cheating politicians of our country from election, and - yes - until we bring the butchers of any and every era to trial, we will continue to hate each other and find justification for our hatred.

i watched arbab jehanzeb on tv the other day. he is said to have the most beautiful garden in karachi - spends millions (hmmm, wonder where he got the millions!?) on it every year. with a soulful, wonderous look in his eyes he said to camera ``a thing of beauty is a joy forever``, or something asinine like that. i dont imagine he loses any sleep over his adventures in east pakistan! however, be fair - dont practice ``bher chaal`` when you lay blame; the likes of sahibzada yaqub khan resisted and were returned home. there are plenty of cases of pakistani soldiers protecting bengalis w/ their lives, and vice versa. there is always good where there is evil.

i am a punjabi, from a military family, and i apologise to every bengali for the atrocities committed in 1971 and before - from the bottom of my heart. as faiz so aptly put it:

kab nazar mein ayegi be-daagh sabzey ki bahar

khoon key dhabey dhulain gay kitni barsaton key baad

hum key thehrey ajnabi.......

Until now, I never realized how horrific the situation was in Bangladesh in those times. It is a sad reality that we in India remember 1971 only as a great victory for our nation. But the human face of the problem, the reason why India was forced to intervene has already been forgotten.

Satyavadi, I certainly cannot speak for all muslims, but I have just recently finished writing an article of being a muslim in India.

Hopefully, we can have a discussion once that gets published.

re: Nameless

Not only was the US on the side of the Pakistani army and arranged for indirect provision of arms, it actively encouraged China to join in.

Read the Henry Kissinger transcripts at

http://www.seas.gwu.edu/nsarchive/nsa/publications/DOC_readers/kissinger/item2.htm

Note that this is opposite of what they have been saying all along. If I remember correctly Nixon said in 1986 that the reason for the USS Enterprise presence was to PREVENT China from joining the war. Barbara Crossette, the venerable NY Times correspondent, former editor of the foreign news section and author of ``India: Facing the 21st Century`` makes a lot of noise about this in her book apart from criticizing India for its *aggression * of Nepal, Maldives, etc.!!!

re: Narain

I agree with you completely. It is indeed unfortunate that we are so pathetic when it comes to remembering our past, justifying our actions or countering western propoganda. As a case in point, there was no noise in India about the recent Kissinger transcripts!! The Americans obviously will not talk about issues that embarass them.

Ashish

Dear Mr. Hasan,

My name is Wajid Hasan Shah. I wanted to express my sincere appreciation & gratitude to you for writing the article: ``Balkan Tragedy: A Re-enactment of the 1971 Genocide in Bangladesh,`` which I just read.

Aside from having the name Hasan in common, I also share your sentiments on the matter of our Independence War, though, unfortunately, many do not.

My father, Shah Mohammad Farid, is a Muktijodha who was Sub-Divisional Officer of Rajbari/Goalondo at the time. He, along with several fellow friends and

officers (including Toqfique-E-Elahi Chowdhury, Bir Bikram, Syed Rezaul Hayat --who are current Secretaries in our Government) revolted; my father was

captured while fighting the Pak Army on April 17th near Goalondo Ghat. Despite being a civillian officer, he was tortured. Some other civillian officers who were tortured were not lucky enough to make it through the war alive. I mentioned one such person (Shamsuddin Uncle) in my letter to the Josephite 1989 batch mail-server, from where your article was sent to me.

Thank you again. I will also forward you a poem (that is soon to be publiched back home) on my feelings about the traitors to our land, if you want me to. I am also including a copy of my reply to your article that I sent through the list-server...

Sincerely,

Wajid Hasan Shah

The following is the letter I sent through the Josephite89 list-server:

Naurose,

Thanks for sharing that. My father is a Muktijodha who was tortured by the Pak Army in 1971. I have heard of many other people, including civillian officers, who weren`t as lucky to make it out alive. Biplob (who was Agrani room-mate)`s father, Shamsuddin Uncle, was put into a ``bosta,`` which was then hung from a tree and then he was beaten mercilessly for two days. When the bag was taken down and he was taken out, his once black hair had turned white...

I really feel that these Pak military officials, along with Golam Azam and other Razakars, Al-Badars and Al-Shams should be tried. For how can we forgive the people who breathe the air of our country yet choose to

betray her very people? Even 50+ years after World War II, the Israelis still pursue Nazis. Unfortunately, we choose to forget the past. I am not suggesting that we forgo building our future in the process, but we should NEVER let their crimes go unpinished...

Woe to the traitor to Bangladesh! (Perhaps you remember this -- Benjamin Sir

gave us this sentence on a voice test, and no one got it right -- the correct answer was/is: May woe befall the traitor to Bangladesh.)

Bangladesh Chirojibi Hok!

Sincerely,

Wajid

Re: maliani # 3

I accept your conclusions that the author was not trying to draw a comparsion, but in the same token, it is a mistake to draw parallels with Shoah (Holocaust).

The point I was trying to make is that the crime of genocide should stand on its own and should not be equated with another to draw attention to its scale of tradegy. That creates a ``trip wire`` or a level of threshold which offically legitimizes it as such once a certain level of misery has been attained.

Also, I would generally caution people to refrain from drawing conclusions, of the Kosovo genocide, with the Jewish experience in Shoah, because the two, though horrible, are not the same. There is no historic parallel to the Shoah and nor can there be one.

Greetings! - Thank you for that very interesting article! Violence, aggression, and war, in any shape or form are wrong in my opinion. However, I do not know if we can compare Kosovo with BD of `71?! Both sprung from what seem to be different roots. I am going to have to think some more about this, and I appreciate your write up making me think! :-)

mariam

To : Jamal Hassan

Thanks to internet we can have a genuine people

to people contact conveniently. I think in these times it is important to have such a contact in order to understand another human as a human being like me rather than what his religion, colour, caste, nationality is. We must understand that

the more we passionately defend our so called differences we`ll never think twice before attacking the other. In our sub-continent I think that is what plagues our mind and will probably remain an impediment to our unity. Some of us don`t realise that on a personal level that is fascinating but together enmasse we must emphasise and strengthen our commonality. That is the only way we can stop oppression and sufferings of victims.

And a case in point is creation of Bangladesh. The myth of Muslim brotherhood and that only Muslims can understand Muslim issues was exposed.

Instead of appreciating and equally encouraging the differences of people and language of East Pakistan the rulers of Pakistan who mainly comprised people from West Pakistan tried to dominate and impose their language and beliefs on the other side. I would like to believe that most ordinary citizens of West Pakistan did not approve the actions of these rulers but they (especially intellectuals) should have collectively revolted against them to show solidarity with their brothers from the East instead of falling in line with their government propaganda. Perhaps it would have helped to lay at rest that at the ground level one side is genuinely concerned about problems of the other.

Though being an Indian I have a lot of respect for Mr. Jinnah who I think had made maximum effort to keep Undivided India together but because of differences with the Congress was compelled to realise Pakistan, but there was no doubt about his secular credentials and his vision of modern Islamic state of Pakistan. If only he lived longer and genarations of Pakistani`s would have forcefully followed his vision, then Pakistan would have been a model Islamic state for others to admire.

Since 1947, when The `Us`(Pakistanis) versus `Them` (Indians/Hindus) policy has started a chain reaction of hate towards Indians and Hindus which is silently becoming a part of our national characteristic and putting our lives on hold. We merely exist; dysfunctional and confused, purposeless and living with paralysing uncertainty.

In 1971 any Hindu in Bangladesh was considered pro-Indian and killed. Same is happening right now. Any violence in Karachi are elsewhere is blamed on RAW agents.

As an Indian, I am very proud of Indias role in the 1971 war.

We helped a discriminated people form their own country AND despite our own ideology that Curzon`s division of Bengal based on communal lines and the subsequent creation of East Pakistan was wrong, we did not try to enforce that view on the new nation of Bangladesh. We recognized that 25 years as a separate country had created differences between West Bengalis and Bangladeshis and they were not ready for a willing union of the two people.

I see more hopeful signs today with Calcutta-based and Dacca-based politicians developing direct state-to-state (or state-to-country if you wish) relations. It appears to me that in the fullness of time, Bangladesh-India relations will become like Nepal-India relations. An Indian rarely feels he is dealing with a foreigner when he interacts with a Nepali. This attitude will begin in INdia-Bangladesh relations. This assumes that there are no more Babri Masjid type incidents.

I have noticed that a number of Pakistani like to say they are a people with their backs to India and their face towards West Asia. That is their choice. Of course, if my neighbour said something like that to me, I would consider him remarkably rude and not want anything to do with them.

Anyhow, the Bangladeshis are forced to have their faces looking towards India and the day they put out a hand, we will embrace them with love.

There is a lot of truth to what the author says, but the scale of events is highly exaggerated. However, it doesn`t make any difference whether 300,000 Bengalis died ( which is closer to to correct figure than the 3 million), or that there were a million refugees instead of the 10 million - atrocities were comitted and went unpunished. It was a dark chapter in Pakistan`s history that should not be forgotten.

It is also imperative that we should not turn a blind eye to similar atrocities being comitted by the Indian Army in Kashmir. History has a cruel way of repeating itself.

Re: firaq # 15

This is an attempt to explain, hopefully with Umair Khan`s permission, what the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia hopes to accomplish.

The nature of the NATO bombing is political and not military and it is tended to force Milosevic back to the table to agree to some sort of a deal on the Kosovar autonomy.

I had written a detailed answer, but due to static my PC froze and I lost that data....will try again later to give you a detailed reason behind NATO`s bombing.

Letter to Mr. Ras Siddiqui April 9, 1999

Dear Mr. Siddiqui:

It is heartening to hear your voice in Chowk.

I agree with you that Kosovo and pre-1971 East Pakistan may not be fully equated. But overall the Balkan picture bears numerous parallels with the events of 1971. In today`s Washington Post one

reader, commenting on Kosovo wrote, ``... Kosovo is Serbian both legally and emotionally if not demographically``. Many Pakistani political thinkers now agree on one point that without the active participation of the Bengali Muslims Pakistan would not even born. Needless to say the Bengalis were left out from playing any

significant role in the nascent country. The rest is history.

I endorse the view that it is imperative to know the WHY of the 1971 genocide. The Freedom of Information Act would presumably reveal the

collusion of Yahya regime and Nixon Administration. It might also disclose the linkage of such war criminals like Rao Farman Ali with

certain Nixon staffers. You definitely have seen that information regarding atrocities in Guatemala have exposed the hidden role of certain US government officials in colluding with the brutal

Guatemalan military junta. Dr. Warren Kimball, a History Professor of Rutgers University is a vocal supporter of release of information in regard to certain dark chapters of US history. Because of people like him we could find out the real story behind the ouster of Dr. Mohammad Mosaddeq of Iran. Dr. Mosaddeq`s only ``mistake`` was that he

nationalised most of his country`s natural resources.

Regarding the issue of war crime, it is definitely important to know the WHO and HOW. Please do not feel ashamed, the conscientious Bengalis will never blame all Pakistanis because of a heinous crime committed by a section of the army. During that period, Pakistan defense forces had such humane officers like Rear Admiral Ahsan or

Air Marshall Asghar Khan.

You talked about the ``criminals that freely walk the streets``. In this regard I would like to point out a shame and disgrace of our nation- we not only rehabilitated Bengali war criminals but also let them go scot free. This was the mistake done by all of our administrations including Awami League. Now the present Prime Minister of Bangladesh who claims herself a champion of 1971

apparently more interested to put the killers of her father behind bar. I doubt she will do anything regarding the killers of the millions.

The good news is there is no statute of limitation for the criminals who committed a crime against humanity. The UK Televeision`s Channel Four exposed a few of the Bengali war criminals of 1971. Today, the video of the TV documentary titled ``War Crime File`` is available in the market. The process just started. One of the notorious executioner, called Ekatturer Jallad is enjoying the safety and security of North America. He is very much involved in religious activity; he is truly the epitome of a wolf in sheep`s clothing. Hopefully , someday he will be forced to answer for his sordid past.

The liberal and conscientious segment of the Pakistani society can help by building up public opinion against the war criminals by exposing the magnitude of the crimes of 1971 and the identity of the criminals.

Finally, like you I used to be a fan of Savar`s chamcham and sandesh.

Now I miss them very much.

Take care.

Sincerely yours,

Jamal Hasan

Hi,

I agree with mhmaqbool that any tragedy, irrespective of the number of people killed must be condemened. But thats where my agrrement ends. I donot agree with maqbool whe he says that the tragedy in kashmir is the same as that In Bangladesh. In Kashmir all the violence is due to the seccessionist terrorsits , many of whom are imported mercenaries. There Indian army is targetting terrorists only who are killing Hindus and also Pro India muslims. Again, I do believe that the security forces are comitting excesses , but thats an exception not a rule. I guess, we should deal with faltering army personnel with

a heavy hand, if we are not already doing so.

Also, Kashmiris are not oppressed people, because they enjoy or equal ( or in some matters more) rights than other Indian citizens. So if some people say that they want to separate only because of religion, a secular country like India cannot agree with them. So India will fight the terrorists and also help the people so that this problem gets solved soon, and so that it fades away, just as the one in Punjab did.

Its hight time now, some knowledgeabale people also start talking about the plight of the Kashmiris on the Pakistani side of the border.

Thanks

Re: mhmaqbool

``It is also imperative that we should not turn a blind eye to similar atrocities being comitted by the Indian Army in Kashmir. History has a cruel way of repeating itself.``

- I have answered this ad nauseum and still let me repeat it again how much ever unhappy it is going to make you.

-- India does not discriminate against Kashmiris (muslims or not). Pakistan did that with the former east pakistanis.

-- India gives the kashmiris more privilege than what the rest of the country enjoys. No Indian other than a kashmiri can buy land or property in Kashmir. This is autonomy at its highest level.

-- India provides constitutional guarantee to the kashmiris on a scale which no other indian enjoys

-- Kashmir has its own state government. It is elected by their own people and functions for them. They are not ruled by new delhi ( except during periods of governors rule .. which any other state be it gujarat , orissa , bihar or Kashmir does go through).

-- Kashmir is heavily subsidised by the central government . Thus a Tamilian or a Bengali is paying Taxes for the upkeep of Kashmir. East Pakistanis never enjoyed such privileges.

-- Today the central government in India (the supposedly Fascist BJP) is in power with the support of the Kashmiri National Conference. Fat chance for the Bangladeshi to dream of these with the West Pakistanis.

-- Pakistanis treated Bangladesh as a step child. India treats the rest of India as a step child compared to Kashmir.

-- Human rights violations by the Indian army does happen, but atleast the Indian government is democratic enough to have its actions audited by the public and the press and the human rights commissions. Vajpayee is not a dictator like Milosevic, nor is he a pseudo dictator like Bhutto.

This is something which a person from a country which was predominantly under Military rule , where one state (punjab) subjugates all the other states based on RACE, and superiority and numerical strength, where people are brought up in a monotheistic quasi-theocratic state will probably fail to understand. Granted such feelings of racial superiority exists in India too. But the numbers game of the democratic system, puts the entire country under the feet of a politician like a Jayalalitha from Tamil Nadu or an Abdullah from Kashmir.

Please Understand the differences before you voice your opinion .

If West Pakistan had given autonomy to east pakistan, if east pakistanis were treated as more than equals by west pakistanis, if east pakistan had had a democratic government which helped keep the central government in power, if human rights had been allowed in east pakistan , and if pakistan by itself had been a democratic country where the voice of the majority was heard,,, then you can compare India and Pakistan in relation to Kashmir and Bangladesh.

If you don`t do that my friend, it is just your hypocrisy and your incapacity and dreams of grandeur that are doing the trick.

Wake up and smell the coffeee

Rishi

Re: Jamal Bhai, let us add that ``Dohi`` from Bogra
to that cham cham and sandesh from Savar.
I also want to thank all Bangladeshis here for assisting my mother during her recent trip to
Makkah for Hajj. She, along with my aunt told me
that the friendliest people she met in Saudi were
the Bangladeshis while KNOWING FULL WELL that
they were Pakistani.
This just adds to the extent of the tragedy that
Bengalis, without whom we would not have Pakistan
were treated so shabbily by us.
In the US we pray alongside each other in the same
mosques, we can talk about world problems and
during cricket matches they CHEER THE PAKISTANI
TEAM when India and Pakistan play. What else can I feel but ashamed today at the events of 1971?

Ras

Re: Satyavdi & Rishi

Coffee may not be our favorite Pakistani drink but
it appears that you both are making the same
mistake on Kashmir that most Pakistanis were and are making on Bangladesh.

To: Ras Siddique and other Pakistani brothers.

Re: Comparing Kashmir to Bangladesh.

From your response it still appears that you believe what you want to believe rather than believe what your conscience says.

Are you refuting the points which Rishi has mentioned as some kind of Indian propaganda, if you are, then probably you will always interpret truth as it suits you. We ordinary Indians question the need for Special Status to Kashmir as our state is based on equality. Our constitution guarantees them every kind of support. It has political representatives from Kashmir itself and not from New Delhi. So there is a democratic structure and one cannot say whats happening there is oppression.

If you say that Kashmiri`s have the right to self determination because they are majority Muslims and have a separate identity than other Indians, then I would say India has a larger Muslim population and they happily co-exist with their counterparts. In India, we have many lingusitic, caste, religion, pockets different from each other with strong identities of their own and so as per your logic right to a country of their own. If you still stick to this point of view then let us go back to the status of 1947 of undivided India and let each community decide wherever they are in majority decide their map, name of their country through self determination. I`m sure alongwith India there wouldn`t be anything called Pakistan because you too have distinct four ethnic groups who have every right to self-determination and if given a choice they would prefer their own independent countries, let this rule apply to all, why only to Kashmir.

The repurcussions in the eventuality of Kashmir separating because of this reason will result in nothing short of catastrophe for both India and Pakistan. I would like to suggest that it will be better for all to maintain this status quo and get on with our other pressing problems together.

re: Truth

Bangladesh-India relations are already quite like Nepal-India relations. At IIT,Kharagpur (my alma mater) we had quite a few students from Bangladesh as also from Nepal, Sri Lanka, Palestine and Nigeria. Lankans, Bangladeshis and Nepalese were completely assimilated into the student body and even held a number of elected student posts. One of my batchmates (north-Indian hindu male) married another from Bangladesh(muslim female).

Recently a Bangladeshi book fair was organized in Calcutta and was received very well. Bangla literature from one side of the border is already quite popular on the other. With the recent bus service between Dhaka and Calcutta (note the almost casual way in which it was started contrary to the hype for the Delhi-Lahore service) relations will receive another boost. Granted that there are some thorny issues like water sharing, royalty for Indian books, etc. but I am sure these will be resolved even better in the future. For example, a joint action by India, Bangladesh and China can be started for better water sharing, perhaps by building a few dams on the Brahmaputra (in Tibet) and Ganga (more upstream than Farakka) to help relieve flooding in BD and Assam. The finance minister has already suggested a common currency on his recent trip to Dhaka to relieve the trade deficit (which can lead to the copyright and other issues being resolved). I hope relations in future are defined more along such positive directions and perhaps more importantly people are made aware of them.

Ashish

Re: Rishi and Bobbybasu

The Kashmir situation may not be similar to Bangladesh but there is a legacy of partition that we cannot ignore. If Kashmir was a British province, it would have certainly gone to Pakistan since it shares a land connection with the rest of Pakistan. India took over Hyderabad and Junagadh which had muslim rulers with hindu majority which we felt was quite justified. Therefore, Pakistan feels justified in pursuing Kashmir. In addition, I feel that we Indians have done a lousy job in the administration and development of Kashmir. Successive congress governments at the center intefered and dismissed democratically elected governments, played power games with the Kashmiris and allowed massive rigging in polls. As a result, most of the Kashmir governments were phenomenally inept and corrupt.

At a social level we never bothered to integrate Kashmiri muslims into Indian society. If you look at education institutions (IIT, IIM etc.), public sector, private sector in India, you can find people from all parts of India including Kashmiri pundits. However, you rarely find a Kashmiri muslim. Since Kashmiri muslims and pundits belong to the same stock, it is not possible to accept that one group is overwhelmingly meritorius over the rest. This omission may not be deliberate but it is indicative of a need to do something for the socio-economic development of Kashmir. Unfortunately we are so caught up in the security issues, we do not realize the need for a long term strategy. The rebellion in Kashmir in 1989 had very strong popular support and we cannot deny that. We may have succeeded in crushing it but we need to look at the root cause.

As far as Pakistan is concerned, we need to move away from the zero-sum game over Kashmir. What is the problem in finding some sort of compromise solution with the Pakistanis ? For e.g. we can increase the autonomy level in Kashmir and collaborate on Kashmir`s defence and foreign affairs with Pakistan. We can allow free movement of people and commerce between Kashmir and Pakistan, with adequate security provisions. We can have independent human rights observers located there. However, we should demand that Pakistan must be a partner with India and invest in the peaceful socio-economic development of Kashmir with hard cash and resources.

even though i am a muslim.. i proud that i am not fundamentalistic about my religion. I have been to temples and churches (though not worshipped ) in India along with my hindu and christian friends and i essentially believe that to each his own. But i am indeed amazed by the fact that my hindu friends in particular have at many a times have prayed in the local dargah with me. My guess, is their pluralistic nature with regards to their religion makes them open to all religions. Which is essentially why India as a country is remaining secular still.

Somewhere along the lines, Muslims of the world are confused between the concept of the state and the church. Why is it that almost all the major problems that plague the world today have their roots in Islam ? Take it as Bosnia, Serbia, Iran, Algeria, Egypt, Sudan, kashmir, Afghanistan, Phillipines, Indonesia, Timor etc., etc., This raging fire of fundamentalist Islam does not pit muslims against christians or hindus alone but even against the radicals against the moderates in states like Egypt, Turkey and Algeria and even to some extent in Pakistan. It is time we take a deep look at ourselves.

iconoclast

Re: Ras

``Coffee may not be our favorite Pakistani drink but it appears that you both are making the same mistake on Kashmir that most Pakistanis were and are making on Bangladesh. ``

-- hmm, do you know that you guys are missing something. Often, i end up arguing with my chaiwala friends from Bengal and Kerala about the delights of Coffea Arabica.

Coffee, a native of Ethiopia was first introduced into the Arab world centuries before in the what is now Yemen. For centuries, Arab and then Ottoman traders enjoyed a monopoly on this magically invigorating plant, and to protect it they enforced a strict ban on export of viable seeds of the mother plant. Not until 1690 were plants successfully smuggled to Ceylon and from there to Java, allowing the Dutch East Indies Company to join in competition for the worlds burgeoning coffee thirst. Today more than 85 countries grow it, and coffee is the world’s number one export commodity by dollar value. Still, some legends linger: the botanical name Coffea Arabica is owed to this passage through Yemen, which was formerly just a mountainous corner of a vast exotic land known to us simply as ``Arabia``.

Amazing that Pakistan does not consider Coffee as its favorite food inspite of its Arabic heritage. It is probably due to their cultural similarity with the chai loving northern indians. The south of India with which i am reasonably familiar with however loves coffee (especially Tamil Nad and Karnatak ) .

That apart, even on a point by point basis, you would be hard pressed to draw an exact parallel between kashmir and bangladesh. By the same logic which you quote, bangladesh can be equated with tamil nad (which incidentally was the first state in India which asked for a seperate statehood ) or Assam, or Punjab or Kashmir or any state of the Indian Union.

But if you hold the religion card then again you would expose your ignorance of the secularism on which India is founded upon (however slender this might be today).

Kashmiri Hindu Pundits are butchered in Kashmir on a regular basis and you do read them in your newspapers, Families are lined up and shot in cold blood by the Muslim fundamentalists . Has any bangladeshi liberation fighters done something even remotely parallel to the Biharis .. ?

Coffee or not, don`t kid yourself. The issue here is different.

Re: Amit.

I disagree with you when you state that the Indian Government did not actively try to develop the lot of Kashmiris. By that same token, the Indian Government can be accused of not actively developing the seven sister states of the east, or orissa or madhyapradesh or even Bihar. It is up to the state governments to develop their states.

And as per your other statement of the Indian government dismissing the elected governments of Kashmir, well did they not do the same with all the other states at one point or the other (ask the DMK about the number of times they were dismissed ). There was never a pogrom against the kashmiris in India. Atleast the sikhs can accuse the others of that during the delhi riots. But i beg your pardon, the kashmiris cannot. What is happening in Kashmir is that a sect of religious fundamentalists, with the active connivance and abetment of a neighbouring are are utitlising the economic disarray and the resultant disenchantment of the people along with their religious sentiments to whip up anti-establishment sentiments. However till date, there has been no refugee movement from kashmir to even POK let alone pakistan. Take Pakistan geographically away from kashmir and kashmir will cease to be problem. Put Pakistan next to TamilNad or Kerala geographically, and then these states today would have been kashmirs.

Rishi

Rishi

Re: Ras and others

Give anyone access to unlimited funds, a host country to aid and abet his ambitions , a few disgruntled elements in an economically underdeveloped but perfectly democratic and secular country and a few cards to play with (such as religious, cultural, ethnic or linguistic ) and they can create a kashmir or a balkans anywhere.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander. So what would prevent india from playing the same bangladesh card now with Baluchistan, Sind or the NWFP in Pakistan. ?

Rishi

RE: Rishi #31 and 33

There is not much confusion here. I am proud of my South Asian (non-Arab) roots and will stick to tea
even if it somehow connects me to North Indians (if you guys don`t mind being related to Muslims).
We have a religion in common with the Arabs but a
civilization shared with that of India and Afghanistan.
On Kashmir you are dead wrong. There are no UN resolutions on the disputed status of Sindh, Baluchistan, NWFP or Punjab.
My government (United States) still recognizes
that all of Jammu and Kashmir is disputed territory. That is not the case with Assam or Tamil Nadu.
Bangladesh was an exceptional case where the MAJORITY of a country was forced to part company with the MINORITY because of the lack of vision
amongst the ``Ruled Elite`` (Not Ruling Elite) of
West Pakistan. I cannot think of any other time in history where a Majority has parted and formed it`s own state leaving the miniority to carry on with the name of the country of origin.
Anyway my point was that India has alienated the Muslim Kashmiris like the West Pakistanis alienated their Bengali population. And you and I can discuss that here till kingdom come but please do not end up convincing yourself that a ``Proxy War`` is all that is going on in Kashmir. We West
Pakistanis were fed the same Bull during the Bangladesh crisis that our soldiers were fighting Indians and not Muslim Bengalis.
Kashmir is more like Kosovo then Bangladesh, that it has a population who has more in common with one country and a territory claimed by another.
As far as your implied threat of India doing the same to Pakistan by working on Sindh, Baluchistan
and the NWFP, it appears that India is already active in both major groups in Sindh. It is for the Pakistani leadership to see that this influence is limited to nuisance value but yes India can take advantage of the economic problems of Pakistan and try and undo the rest of it.
But your security and political establishment appears to be mature enough to understand that the
undoing of Pakistan will mean the undoing of India
(I am not talking of a military conflict with the nuclear element here) but that the ideological wave that has crept into Kashmir will become a Tsunami into India where 300 million Muslims will
upset the Brahminic domination of Bharat.
The only way out is a negotiated settlement of Kashmir and to bolster the rocky economy of Chai
drinking Pakistan.

Ras

Dear Mr. Jamal Hasan

Your article made very interesting reading. Like most emotional yet ignorant people you have very ardently made use of words to cover up your lack of information. I do hope you are aware of the fact that calling a person some thing like a war crimnal surmounts to slander and defamation. I hope you can substantiate your calim with some legal proof. Other wise you will soon be talking to some lawyers and finding out what it really means to make unfounded accusations.

Muneezae Khan

D/o Brig. ZA Khan

ATTENTION Mr. JAMAL HASAN

I must ask you as to WHY you have included in your list of names of people who `fit the profile of war criminals` Brig Gen. Z.A Khan. Kindly include detailed reasons for why you or anyone else should consider this gentleman a person who `fits the profile of a war criminal`. I am only aware of his role in the capture of the ghaddar/traitor Sheikh Mujibur Rehman, and his escort of said ghaddar/traitor to West Pakistan. I hardly think that this act constitutes a war crime. Explain your irresponsible statements, or withdraw them immediately.

The issue of whether the Pakistan army committed

genocide in East Pakistan in 1971 is seperate from the issue of individual responsibility when you name particular individuals. Some of those individuals named are no doubt guilty of committing inhuman atrocities on the East Pakistani Bengalis at the time, but I seriously doubt you have an iota of proof against the Brigadier General (retd) Z.A.Khan. Incidently this gentleman has recently published a book about his experiences in the Pakistan army titled, `The Way it Was.` Exerpts of the book have been published on the internet in Pakistani Defence journals which are availble on the internet free of charge in back issues if you care to read about them.

As usual I am jumping in at the fag end of the discussion ..so I shall be brief

1...As was seen by Pakistan`s experience in 1965 with Kashmir pouring weapons into a region ..doesn`t trigger an insurrection not unless they are underlying causes .

2....There is a strong element of racial and ethnic chavunism ..similair in both cases of Kosovo and East Pakistan ..it wasn`t uncommon to hear West PAkistani soldiers being quoted as saying `` we`ll remove the fight out of them forever ``

`` We will wipe out tehir genes ``

3...Interestingly India is opposed to the intervention by Nato in the conflict ..as are countries like China and Russia ...most probably because ..once you allow such a precedent ..it can be applied elsewhere ( a useful lesson for any armed intervention in Pakistan as well )

4...The history behind the kosovo war is much more complex then the East Pakistan one ..it is 500 + years old...and the alnd historically was Serbian ..but due to war and migrations ..the Albanian community became a majority .

5...On the other hand their is an important similairity ..if the East Pakistan incident had occurred now ..it would most definitely have been considered Genocide ..and many pakistani leaders would have been caught .

In Pakistans defense ..that it hasn`t apologised for the War and hasn`t paid compensation ..all assets in East Pakistan were nationalised by the Mujib govt. ..something that played a role in the economic depression that overtook West Pakistan in the `70`s ..also it is said that Z.A Bhutto apologised in 1975 on his trip to Bangladesh ( I am however uncertain about this ) another point worth mentioning ..is that over 1.5 million Bengalis live in pakistan right now ..as illegeal immigrants ..they are employed ..and have taken over teh fishing industry in Karachi ..they have excacerbated the ethnic and social problems in that area ..and send their remittances back to Bangladesh ...another reference is that in Nawaz Sharifs trip to Bangladesh ( the first one after being re elected PM ) he did clearly state that the March 1970 crackdown was wrong and that the mandate of the people should have been respected .

Ras Siddiqui

``(if you guys don`t mind being related to Muslims).``

-- not at all. Hindus in India have been born with an umblical cord that connects them with the Muslims. Islam has done a world of good to a perverted, myopic , casteist religion that Hinduism was and still is.

``On Kashmir you are dead wrong. There are no UN resolutions on the disputed status of Sindh, Baluchistan, NWFP or Punjab. ``

-- Agreed, but UN resolutions alone do not constitute any legality whatsoever. The UN resolutions also say that Pakistan should withdraw its troops from its part of Kashmir before such a resolution is honoured. The UN resolution for a plebiscite does not recognize any control over kashmir by pakistan while it recognizes that India had an absolute authority over the kashmir territory in relation to the instrument of accession and this status can be altered by the plebiscite. So before the UN resolution can be even thought of , pakistan has to withdraw its forces. While Pakistan is crying hoarse over indian atrocities in Kashmir, i don`t understand why Pakistan does not utilize this opportunity and declare its part of Kashmir as an independant entity. That move alone shall do the kashmir movement a world of good.

``My government (United States) still recognizes

that all of Jammu and Kashmir is disputed territory. That is not the case with Assam or Tamil Nadu.``

-- From when has my governments (United States) recognition mattered to the politics of the subcontinent. My government while it has its virtues does not constitute a global protector nor a judge and jury to recognize or not recognize other nations. My government acts only in its own interest and todays economic and political interests of my country dictate that it not recognize kashmir as a part of either india or pakistan. Tomorrow, who knows ?

Bad argument, Ras...........

`` Anyway my point was that India has alienated the Muslim Kashmiris like the West Pakistanis alienated their Bengali population. ``

-- Yes, today the Muslim Kashmiris are indeed alienated. But your statement, that India has alienated them is what i contend with. There is a subtle semantic difference between what i accept and what you allege.

Pakistan alienated East bengalis, but India did not alienate the Muslim Kashmiris. Pray tell me, exactly what actions of the Indian union alienated the Kashmiris. Did india moved in non-kashmiris into kashmir and gave them authority over the kashmiris the way pakistan did with the Biharis/bengalis --- au contraire, india gave the kashmiris complete security. Cold blooded murder is being committed by the kashmir terrorists and not the Indian Government whoes actions are monitored by a douzen or so NGOs. India foots the bill for the entire state of Kashmir, unlike Bangladesh propping up the sagging Pakistani economy prior to 1971. Indians do not have any feelings whatsoever of cultural or political superiority towards the kashmiris (muslim or not ) the way the pakistanis did towards the bengalis (aryan dravidian nonsense). Au contraire even today, the kashmiri muslim is regarded on a culturally and ethnically higher strata than say some other ethnic people within india by the other indians. The kashmiri has his own government, and is being adequately and today powerfully represented in the center. He can make or break the central government if he chooses to today.

`` And you and I can discuss that here till kingdom come but please do not end up convincing yourself that a ``Proxy War`` is all that is going on in Kashmir. ``

-- You still have not answered my questions point by point. Yes, it is not a proxy war alone that is going on in Kashmir. What is going on in kashmir was started by a proxy war which can easily become a seperatist movement, given some money, a few disgruntled elements, and a religious card. ? You seem to be more interested in the current status and not in the origin or the raison d`etre of the kashmiri problem. It is like, lets start a problem with a family and address just the problem later on and not on the cause or reason of the problem.

``We West Pakistanis were fed the same Bull during the Bangladesh crisis that our soldiers were fighting Indians and not Muslim Bengalis. ``

-- You guys are still being fed a lot of bull about the freedom struggle, about yours and india`s religions, about our common heritage and history etc., Thankfully until today (with or without the fascist BJP) we Indians due to our pluralistic nature have been fed with less bull and more substance.

`` Kashmir is more like Kosovo then Bangladesh, that it has a population who has more in common with one country and a territory claimed by another.``

-- there you go again. now you have to compare kashmir with kosovo...and now you have to claim that the kashmiris have more in common with pakistan. That claim needs to be made by a kashmiri and not you and also remember that for every kashmiri who makes that claim there is another kashmiri who would make a contrary claim about being more in common with india and another who would claim that they have nothing in common with either. if only milosevic had treated kosovo as india did with kashmir (special status, autonomy, religious and cultural freedom etc), his country would not have been bombed today. Instead he tried to deal with Kosovo as Pakistan did with Bangladesh...............

``As far as your implied threat of India doing the same to Pakistan by working on Sindh, Baluchistan

and the NWFP, it appears that India is already active in both major groups in Sindh. ``

-- I am not implying any threat. I am just trying to point out that in economically regressive and societally plural societies like ours, dissensions and seperatist movements can be as easily created as lighting a fire. As long as a democratic setup is in existence in our countries and where the actions of everyone of us can be judged by the people, as long as we have an unbiased judiciary and a strong and independant press these seperatist movements are in existence only because of outside influenze or because of a few self centered persons fanning such movements for their own hidden agendas. And that is all that i was trying to point. Who am i to threaten anyone for that matter ?

`` But your security and political establishment appears to be mature enough to understand that the

undoing of Pakistan will mean the undoing of India``

-- Yes, thankfully the Indian government realizes that and that is the probably a reason Pakistan is not facing a kashmir within its borders.

``but that the ideological wave that has crept into Kashmir will become a Tsunami into India where 300 million Muslims will upset the Brahminic domination of Bharat.``

-- You know what, i hope that the Muslims of India start using the democratic process sensibly and do upset the Brahminic domination of Bharat. My only fear is that they might be used by the lalloos and mulayams of India for their vote bank politics.

``The only way out is a negotiated settlement of Kashmir and to bolster the rocky economy of Chai

drinking Pakistan.``

-- I don`t think there is a sensible way, excepting what the Chinese premier once said. Let us cease hostilities and improve our economy and our defense ( have as many missiles as each wants but keep the nukes in check ), stop interfering with the other country`s internal matters, maintain a status quo in terms of borders and hope that a future generation would be wiser than the one today to decide its course of action. Who knows what would happen in another 20-50 years of technological and economical advancement. ?

Rishi

Ras:

In the US we pray alongside each other in the same

mosques, we can talk about world problems and

during cricket matches they CHEER THE PAKISTANI

TEAM when India and Pakistan play. What else can I feel but ashamed today at the events of 1971?

Ras:

Please, for God`s sake Do not try to play the Islamic card again. We have been cheated againa and again.

Bangladeshis know how Pakistanis played the Islamic card in 1971 and got massacred and killed and raped.

And what makes you believe that Bangadeshis would

support a Pakistani team only in an India-Pakistan match. In fact when I was in Dhaka to see

India Pakistan finals (Independence Cup) there were far more Indian supporters. There are Pakistani supporters too but trust me they are far less than Indian supporters. Of course if there was an India-Bangladesh match they would support Bangladesh.

Bangladesh love cricket and would love to watch good cricket.

To D/o Z. A. Khan : I actually hope that you do take this court. Preferebly to the International Court (World Court). Where we may find once, and for all the war criminals, and review all the docummentary evidence. This this issue will be settled (as settled as it can be). Of-course, Pakistan, then must also aggree that any war criminals found guilty should be turned over to international authorities (the United Nations authorities perhaps) who would enforce whatever sentence the court passes. -Altaf

A common fallacy spread by the left leaning NY.Times in 1971 and by numerous pro-Indian authors is repeated in this article. The fallacy is that of 3 million dead Bangalis and the 10 million refugees.

The truth is that probably about 100,000-300,000 people died as a result of the civil war. As for refugees, perhaps upto 3 million were created by the crisis that India constantly fueled and instigated, including the those initially displaced by the infamous cyclone of 1970 before the balloting. How? The Indian run Bangla radio stations in W.Bengal constantly broadcast news of massacres that did not in fact occur and exaggerated the situation deliberately, telling all East Pakistani citizens of Bangla race that the Pakistan army intended to, and was killing them. The Indians sent in RAW agents and trained the Mukti Bahini to spread misinformation and terror and constantly urged the people to flee, thereby deliberately exacerbating the crisis, and providing the requisite excuse for armed intervention in East Pakistan in order to fulfill its strategic goals. This does not however negate the Pakistani army`s bloody deeds on the night of March 25, 1971, which did in fact occur, but one should study the context in which they occured to understand Yahya Khan & Co, to say nothing of the situation prevailing in East Pakistan prior to that night. Does not excuse it, but it explains the `why`.

When U.S Congressmen visited the refugee camps in West Bengal, they were naturally appalled at the conditions prevailing. The conditions of third world poverty were indeed horrifying to people who had never seen anything like this before in their lives and India played this card to the hilt. The truth is that conditions in the refugee camps in Indian West Bengal were actually better than in the Indian state itself, so much, that local residents of Indian West Bengal entered and flooded the camps as refugees, to take advantage of the guaranteed free meals to the refugees. When the U.N wanted to take a head count of refugees, India refused to permit it. India also refused to permit any of the refugees to return safely home, after all, they were now the hard won bargaining chips of the Indian government. Many had wanted to return by September 1971, under arrangements worked out by the U.N, U.S & the amnesty offer by the Govt of Pakistan which wanted them to return. All this is substantiated by my research of the newspapers of the time, particularly NY Times on microfilm,1971 and approximately 15 books on the creation of Bangladesh i read in my senior year in high school and later in college as an undergrad, when i did an independant study/15 page paper on the subject including U.S foreign policy. Both Kissinger and Nixon are especially harsh in their memoirs on Indira Gandhi and her ruthless ambition to destroy United Pakistan ... no matter what the cost. Some of their quotes make very interesting reading.

The Awami Leagues 6 point plan was basically nothing short of a demand for outright secession. It was therefore unacceptable to any sane patriotic Pakistani at the time. That is the real truth. If we had to do it over again, we probably would. But this time India would get nuked. By October-November Pakistan army had retaken control of much of the countryside and defeated the Indian proxy, the Mukti Bahini, and the Indian BSF and army engaged in cross border shelling and other provocations in order to escalate the crisis. Yahya said in 10 days we will be at war. He kept his word. The real war crime committed was by Gen. `Tiger` Niazi (of Mein Nai Hatyar Nahinh daalay autobiographical fame recently --- too phir kiss nai daalay you coward?)Dhaka should have been turned into a fortress and the Pakistan army should have retreated within the city limits and fought to the last man, city block by city block, street by bloody street. Tiger Sahib should have faced the firing squad on his return to West Pakistan from the Indian POW camp.

Incidently, i`d like to take the opportunity to debunk the myth of the 5 IAF planes in one mission that M.M Alam claimed to have shot down in the 1965 war as well (He did however shoot down 2 others in seperate engagements during the 1965 war). THERE WAS NO GUN CAMERA FOOTAGE, or WRECKAGE of any of these planes. IAF planes shot down in other engagements by other pilots were at different times were used by the PAF to bolster his lies. The truth is Pakistan needed to prove to its citizens that it `Won` this war, and it needed `a war hero` to do it. Enter M.M Alam. This infamous lie needs to be debunked so that the real PAF heroes of 1965 & 71 are recognized for their achievements as opposed to this charlatan M.M Alam.

And finally, Brigadier gen (retd) Z.A (SSG)/Commandos exemplifies the very best of Pakistan and its army. He is not guilty of any `atrocities` against civilians whatsoever in former East Pakistan, and i suggest that this author issue an immediate retraction to this effect, and delete any implication to this effect from the article immediately because the author seems illinformed, plus the author should issue a public apology to this valiant defender of both East & West Pakistan. Brig Z.A Khan has fought bravely for his country on the battlefield repeatedly, and the only `political` mission of his life was the arrest/capture of the ghaddar/traitor Sheikh Mujib-Ur-Rehman and the transfer of said ghaddar/traitor to West Pakistan in irons/fetters, I am led to believe. Any former citizen of East Pakistan should express gratitude for this well-nigh honorable service to their country.

I`d like to add my condlences to the Pakistani army officers who were massacred by the treasonous Benglalis under their command in East Pakistan rifles etc, and the other innocent and unfortunate victims of the war including those whom Bengali mobs tore to pieces and those who were innocent victims of the Razakars etc as well.

Ironic indeed that the Bangalis themselves devoured and killed their own `father of the Bangladesh nation`, though Pakistan spared him.

In summation, Yaha handled a flood rather badly, Bhutto preferred to rule over half a country rather than not rule at all, and Mujib should have been allowed to become P.M of United Pakistan, but was not, and then turned into a traitor, India took full advantage of the delicate political situation then prevailing, exploited Yahya`s crude handling of it, and thus we lost half of the country. Thats the story of how Bangladesh came into existence. But the truth is, they are probably much better off without West Pakistan. I note their literacy rate has crept up, and their bith rate has gone down significantly. One need only look at the situation today in (West)Pakistan to realize they have done better than West Pakistan. Good luck to them. Shame on Pakistan today for allowing a small vocal minority of mullahs to dictate the terms of our social development. Balochistan still has a 2% female literacy rate today. Shows where we are today.

Re: Omar1974

``. If we had to do it over again, we probably would. But this time India would get nuked ``

hmm, You really believe that don`t you. At the least your statement is gross stupidity and at the best just plain funny. I will take the later. Grow up will ya. rhetorics don`t help anyone at all

Mujib ... a traitor... c`mon

Rishi

I was talking to a Bangladeshi friend of mine about whether the crowd supports India or Pakistan during cricket matches, and he told me its usually fifty-fifty: half the people hate Pakisan more, and the other half hates India more!

...Talk about peace in the sub-continent!!

Re: Rishi and Omar

The difference between a patriot and traitor is only in the perception of the deed.

Re: Altaf

Just out of curiosity, what documentary proof are you refering to? I highly doubt that the Pakistani Army kept detailed records of its massacres against the people of Bangladesh and as to the remains of the victims, where will one find those? How are you planning on proving the complicity of the Pakistani generals?

Most of the evidence against the Pakistani generals is circumtancial and granted there is enough cause to issue an indictment against them, it is still a far cry from making the charges withstand the scrutiny of the international court. The problem with the IC is that it lacks the power to enforce its judgements and since international law, in relations between nations, relies on the principle of sovereign immunity, bringing war criminals to trial is mostly a diplomatic process and not a legal one.

Even if you get these generals in court, you have to establish beyond a doubt that the Pakistani generals directly and verbally ordered the genocide. You have to establish and then proof that there is a direct link between them and the genocide. You will need solid evidence, not mere allegations, to prove the causal link. The greatest enemy to war crimes prosecution is not the act, but time itself. With each year, it gets more difficult to proof the guilt.

Re: Omar1974

Sheikh Mujib might be traitor/gaddar to u but he is to us what Jinnah is to u...and pl remember ur neighbour also call mr. Jinnah something worse than traitor. Sheikh Mujib was killed by some elements in army who came to Bangladesh from Pakistan after 1971.....( Did u plant them?)

Zabed

Rishi:

I just wanted to support every word of your Reply #37. Good Job.

Rishi :

Mujib Ur Rehman was indeed a traitor. How do i define treason? Simple. Advocating and inciting others to take action to break up the state, while being a citizen subject to that state. That is precisely what the Awami League and Mujib were doing PRIOR to March 25th, 1971. And Mujib was a CITIZEN of UNITED PAKISTAN. The AWAMI LEAGUE wanted a `CONFEDERATION`, to use their word. This was the demand that preceeded the army action on March 25, 1971, in addition to widespread lawlessness, looting and forcible closure of businesses and government institutions plus burning of Pakistani flag in Dhaka and else where in East Pakistan, incited primarily by the Awami League and Mujib Ur Rehman. A confederation implies the right to secession. This is essentially the heart and soul of the Awami league`s 6 point agenda in early 1971. Mujib himself was never really intetrested in becoming P.M of United Pakistan, although i most certainly defend his right to do precisely that. However, he was interested since the 1960s in the secession of East Pakistan from the country. That does amount to TREASON under my working definition of the term. Can`t really call it anything else.

Regarding my comment of `if we had to do it over agin, we probably would.` Well, Some regional leaders in Pakistan today have called for what amounts to the breakup of the country. Since they are citizens of Pakistan today, that amounts to treason. Frankly had i been in Yahya`s shoes i don`t see too many other reasonable alternatives at the time, given my/his duty to protect the integrity of the country and to prevent rampant lawlessness, including the deliberate desecration of the flag by elements of the supporters of the Awami League.

This is the harsh truth. Deal with it. And if India tried the same thing with Sindh today for example, IF i were the person making the decisions, there would certainly come a `critical point` at which use of nuclear weapons in a first strike against India would become seriously tempting. If you drive a man to the wall, then he can reach a point where he has nothing to lose anymore. Pakistani leaders faced this situation in East Pakistan in 1971. There were few other viable alternatives. It backfired, but even with 20/20 hindsight, i can`t honestly say that i would have made different choices. That is the emotional truth of it, like it or not.

Rishi :

Mujib Ur Rehman was indeed a traitor. How do i define treason? Simple. Advocating and inciting others to take action to break up the state, while being a citizen subject to that state. That is precisely what the Awami League and Mujib were doing PRIOR to March 25th, 1971. And Mujib was a CITIZEN of UNITED PAKISTAN. The AWAMI LEAGUE wanted a `CONFEDERATION`, to use their word. This was the demand that preceded the army action on March 25, 1971, in addition to widespread lawlessness, looting and forcible closure of businesses and government institutions plus burning of Pakistani flag in Dhaka and else where in East Pakistan, incited primarily by the Awami League and Mujib Ur Rehman. A confederation implies the right to secession. This is essentially the heart and soul of the Awami league`s 6 point agenda in early 1971. Mujib himself was never really interested in becoming P.M of United Pakistan, although i most certainly defend his right to do precisely that. However, he was interested since the 1960s in the secession of East Pakistan from the country. That does amount to TREASON under my working definition of the term. Can`t really call it anything else.

Regarding my comment of `if we had to do it over again, we probably would.` Well, Some regional leaders in Pakistan today have called for what amounts to the breakup of the country. Since they are citizens of Pakistan today, that amounts to treason. Frankly had i been in Yahya`s shoes i don`t see too many other reasonable alternatives at the time, given my/his duty to protect the integrity of the country and to prevent rampant lawlessness, including the deliberate desecration of the flag by elements of the supporters of the Awami League.

This is the harsh truth. Deal with it. And if India tried the same thing with Sindh today for example, IF i were the person making the decisions, there would certainly come a `critical point` at which use of nuclear weapons in a first strike against India would become seriously tempting. If you drive a man to the wall, then he can reach a point where he has nothing to lose anymore. Pakistani leaders faced this situation in East Pakistan in 1971. There were few other viable alternatives. It backfired, but even with 20/20 hindsight, i can`t honestly say that i would have made different choices. That is the emotional truth of it, like it or not.

Ferozk : Point well taken. There is no absolute truth, nor can we ever really ‘know’ it. The closet we can get to a conception of ‘absolute truth’, is a reflection in the muddied waters of a pond. Hence, there are only VERSIONS of the truth, depending upon one’s vantage point and perspective. Still, judges don’t have this luxury, and they have to decide cases and practical problems on a daily basis on the basis of the information they possess. The process of justice is far from perfect, like all things human, but one can only make an attempt to learn the truth, one should not give up dispairingly.

Re: OMAR1974

Again Bad arguments Omar

``How do i define treason? Simple. Advocating and inciting others to take action to break up the state, while being a citizen subject to that state.``

-- Are all kashmiris fighting for their liberation traitors then ? Are the Kosovars traitors today ? You have a rather myopic and partial viewpoint over all things. And you seem to favor everything that suits yourself however contradictory that might make you. what goes around comes around ..

``Frankly had i been in Yahya`s shoes i don`t see too many other reasonable alternatives at the time, given my/his duty to protect the integrity of the country and to prevent rampant lawlessness, including the deliberate desecration of the flag by elements of the supporters of the Awami League.``

-- You could have started a saner process if you had been in Yahya`s shoes by respecting the democratic process and installing the Awami League as the ruling party of Pakistan and giving the Bengalis equal rights by making Bengali also a national language rather than Urdu alone. But then you won`t b`coz like Yahya you have to act immature and force things down to brawn with a mistaken belief on your own strength untill someone stronger brow beats you , would ya...

`` This is the harsh truth. Deal with it. And if India tried the same thing with Sindh today for example, IF i were the person making the decisions, there would certainly come a `critical point` at which use of nuclear weapons in a first strike against India would become seriously tempting.``

-- Yeah, would be seriously tempting . would`nt it ? Particularly when the country you want to nuke is probably much more powerful and has its own nukes and much more larger . It would never cross your mind that during your frenetic and bombastic frenzy in pressing the nuke buttons, that in a few seconds you would also vaporize along with all of your family and your country men not to mention a few innocent neighbours who would also suffer the after effects of the radiation carried over by the winds. You give yourself too much credit, you know.

`` If you drive a man to the wall, then he can reach a point where he has nothing to lose anymore.``

-- nothing to lose,,, if you had nothing to lose in 1971 what are you trying to protect today. Why do you need all these nukes and missiles if you have nothing to lose ?

``Pakistani leaders faced this situation in East Pakistan in 1971. There were few other viable alternatives. ``

-- A most viable alternative would have been to handle the situation as the Indians have been handling kashmir. Instead of forcing things into the open and pushing yourself against the wall so that you have to kick back and kill yourself in the process (which is what milosevic is doing today) , a more saner person would manoever around the corners and keep the fight at a low intensity level till the fighters tire themselves out and choose other easier and more comfortable options which are thrown open to them and retire gracefully from the fight (believe me, the indians did that with Punjab and won the fight We could have easily done a bangladesh in punjab by butchering all punjabi sikhs and not letting them enjoy the benefit of a judiciary, a human rights commission and a diplomatic and political process, but then we would have created a refugee crises and forced things into the open. instead the indians waited it out , not out of some great insight but because their democratic process does not provide any other alternative).

`` It backfired, but even with 20/20 hindsight, i can`t honestly say that i would have made different choices. That is the emotional truth of it, like it or not. ``

-- read my previous answer again whether you like it or not.

p.s: Your reply my friend, i am sorry to say is typical of the jingoistic nature in which pakistan is run today and is but an example of the political and judiciary and social process . For instance when India tests an Agni-II, There were no public hue and cry about it this time and people took it as a matter of fact. But on the other hand, pakistanis across the border seemed too agitated about it. I would think that all the Pakistanis need to do is to test their own missiles and feel confident about their security rather than link their actions with that of India`s. Just confirms my belief that politics in Pakistan seems to be more India centric than it should probably be. Thankfully things appear a little better across the border in India. Atleast the Indians don`t appear to get worked up about everything that Pakistan does.

Rishi:

Can you read my mind? Once again, I agree 100% with you (Reply #49).

In future, you can assume that you speak for at least two people - yourself and me! Dont misuse that authority!

Omar1974:

Dont mean to insult you but your musings about the unknownability of truth are perilously close to the Hindu concept of Maya wherein everything is considered a matter of perception and having no innate reality of its own.

And just to be clear, I`m not saying this concept is the exclusive domain of the Maya - I`m certain other religions and philosophies have their own concepts of the unknowability of truth,.

Re; Rishi #49

Again Bad arguments Omar

``How do i define treason? Simple. Advocating and inciting others to take action to break up the state, while being a citizen subject to that state.``

Are all kashmiris fighting for their liberation traitors then ? Are the Kosovars traitors today ? You have a rather myopic and partial viewpoint over all things. And you seem to favor everything that suits yourself however contradictory that might make you. what goes around comes around ..

O’s Reply: From India’s perspective, they are traitors are they not? India has been fighting a WAR in Kashmir, just like the Serbs Vs. The Kosovars in Kosovo.

``Frankly had i been in Yahya`s shoes i don`t see too many other reasonable alternatives at the time, given my/his duty to protect the integrity of the country and to prevent rampant lawlessness, including the deliberate desecration of the flag by elements of the supporters of the Awami League.``

-- You could have started a saner process if you had been in Yahya`s shoes by respecting the democratic process and installing the Awami League as the ruling party of Pakistan and giving the Bengalis equal rights by making Bengali also a national language rather than Urdu alone. But then you won`t b`coz like Yahya you have to act immature and force things down to brawn with a mistaken belief on your own strength untill someone stronger brow beats you , would ya...

O’s reply: I stated repeatedly that this indeed would have been better, for Mujib to become P.M of United Pakistan. Unfortunately, by mid-March 1971 he was no longer interested. I never said Yahya’s initial decision to postpone convening the newly election National assembly in Dhaka was a good one, which contributed to this mess. But by 1971 having done that earlier, options were running out, and at that point Mujib’s true intentions and the Awami League’s sinister plans were becoming clear. Like the Kosovar analogy, West Pakis suspected the goal of the Awami League was not autonomy, but independence from the start. Serbs are right to suspect that. And that was never going to be acceptable to West Pakistan, as is indep to Serbia of Kosovo. I am well aware of the economic arguments of E.Pak being a ‘colony’ similar to Serbia-Kosovo, but its much more than that, its an emotional attachment to one’s country. And people, like the Serbs in Kosovo are willing to die for that. So were Pakistanis in 1971. It’s a core value. Like it or not. Not that I support the Serbs, but it has given me an insight into how they probably feel, and how Indians probably feel over Kashmir that I was lacking before I thought about this from the other point of view.



`` This is the harsh truth. Deal with it. And if India tried the same thing with Sindh today for example, IF i were the person making the decisions, there would certainly come a `critical point` at which use of nuclear weapons in a first strike against India would become seriously tempting.``

-- Yeah, would be seriously tempting . would`nt it ? Particularly when the country you want to nuke is probably much more powerful and has its own nukes and much more larger . It would never cross your mind that during your frenetic and bombastic frenzy in pressing the nuke buttons, that in a few seconds you would also vaporize along with all of your family and your country men not to mention a few innocent neighbours who would also suffer the after effects of the radiation carried over by the winds. You give yourself too much credit, you know.



O’S REPLY: Well, have you ever heard of the doctrine of deterrence? Threats only work when the other side believes them. Khrushchev believed Kennedy, thats why U.S WON the Cuban missile crisis, and Khruschev was forced to resign in disgrace later. He blinked first. Nuke threats work/are credible only when the other side believes that there is a certain point beyond which they can’t push you.

`` If you drive a man to the wall, then he can reach a point where he has nothing to lose anymore.``

-- nothing to lose,,, if you had nothing to lose in 1971 what are you trying to protect today. Why do you need all these nukes and missiles if you have nothing to lose ?

O’s reply: THE INTEGRITY OF ANY PART OF A COUNTRY is usually equal to the whole. We don’t rationally decide whether Sindh is more valuable than Punjab, hence if India annexes Sindh, we won’t push the button, but would wish to continue our existence as a nation (of Punjabis!:) in the Punjab, therefore showing a willingness to allow Sindh to become either an independent state or accede to India by force of Indian arms. That would be ridiculous. So you are being ridiculous. Would you like to give Pakistan a guarantee that India won`t resort to Nukesif we sucessfully invade Indian Occupied Kashmir, encircle the Indian forces in the valley, and close a pincer around them strangulating them. Would you like to tell us BEFOREHAND that its okay for us to try?



``Pakistani leaders faced this situation in East Pakistan in 1971. There were few other viable alternatives. ``

-- A most viable alternative would have been to handle the situation as the Indians have been handling kashmir. Instead of forcing things into the open and pushing yourself against the wall so that you have to kick back and kill yourself in the process (which is what milosevic is doing today) , a more saner person would manoever around the corners and keep the fight at a low intensity level till the fighters tire themselves out and choose other easier and more comfortable options which are thrown open to them and retire gracefully from the fight (believe me, the indians did that with Punjab and won the fight We could have easily done a bangladesh in punjab by butchering all punjabi sikhs and not letting them enjoy the benefit of a judiciary, a human rights commission and a diplomatic and political process, but then we would have created a refugee crises and forced things into the open. instead the indians waited it out , not out of some great insight but because their democratic process does not provide any other alternative).

O’s : Precisely what I stated in my earlier posts, India is responsible for extending the conflict and widening it. India stoked the flames of the conflict (See Kissinger & Nixon on Indira Ghandhi) By Oct-Nov the Pakistan army had basically defeated the Mukti Bahini. That is when India expanded border clashes in an effort to seize territory to set up a puppet govt on E.Pakistani soil. I also addressed the myths about the conflict that India has propogated regarding the numbers of dead and displaced people in my earlier posts in detail. Read ‘em. India poured fuel on the fire and created the inferno that engulfed East Pakistan. The allies in Kosovo conflict are NOT broadcasting to Kosovars that they should flee Kosovo.

`` It backfired, but even with 20/20 hindsight, i can`t honestly say that i would have made different choices. That is the emotional truth of it, like it or not. ``

-- read my previous answer again whether you like it or not.

p.s: Your reply my friend, i am sorry to say is typical of the jingoistic nature in which pakistan is run today and is but an example of the political and judiciary and social process . For instance when India tests an Agni-II, There were no public hue and cry about it this time and people took it as a matter of fact. But on the other hand, pakistanis across the border seemed too agitated about it. I would think that all the Pakistanis need to do is to test their own missiles and feel confident about their security rather than link their actions with that of India`s. Just confirms my belief that politics in Pakistan seems to be more India centric than it should probably be. Thankfully things appear a little better across the border in India. At least the Indians don`t appear to get worked up about everything that Pakistan does.

O’s reply : With Pakistan’s history of conflict with India, and 80% of Indian forces deployed facing Pakistan, the current tensions involving Kashmir, SEVERAL HUGE ARMY, AirForce & NAVAL exercises conducted by India recently, plus the detonation of nukes by India just last year, plus the massive disparity in conventional and nuclear weapons between the two sides, CALL ME PARANOID if I and other Pakis are just a trifle concerned about the missile tests for missiles with the capability to strike any Pakistani target from deep within India, as opposed to the Prithvi which needs to be deployed near the border (and India has already deployed over 100 near Pakistan’s border, this missile is Pakistan Specific, does not have the range for use against China, and 85% of Indian aircraft lack the range to Penetrate into China, they are deployed facing Pakistan). Yeah, I guess Pakistanis MUST be Crazy to take all these things into account. Right. You really made your point Rishi.:). Uh, huh.

Re: Rishi and Omar

The problem with reviewing the 1971 crisis in former East Pakistan is that it still exists within the living memory of many people in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. 28 yrs is not enough time to heal all the nationalistic passions which still exist and that goes for any meaningful dicussions in the region. In India and Pakistan, the past is not forgotten; it is not even a past, but a reality which shapes the present. Each national perspective, of the 1971 war, is not determined the events, but by the emotional content of its value to our national mindset.

There have been valid points, from all sides, in these InterActs. I am not sure who said it, but the observation was insightful. Pakistani policy needs to be less India specific and more multi-lateral in its outlook, but then again, Omar has a vaild point when he discusses the Indian military and its force projections as being Pakistan specific. This mutual reaction to each other`s intent and the inability to start afresh is the greatest impediment to the improvement of relations in the region.

For the record, I do not support the recent Pakistani test of its missile, in response to the Indian test, because this quid pro quo is not beneficial to the settlement of our outstanding problems. Pakistan has already established a level of credibility, to deter an Indian strike, and it should not seek an arms race with India, because the economic costs will be too Phyrric for Islamabad. Nor do I agree with the planned celebrations to mark the first anniversary of Pakistani nuclear tests. It is a waste of money and more importantly, a complete ignorance of reality.

Pakistani political leadership does not seem to understand that it is still under the sanctions regime and this one time presidental waiver will expire in October. Once it does, Clinton will have to seek another Congressional waiver to suspend the sanctions against Pakistan and keep its economy afloat. What will happen is that Pakistan, though economic and political mismanagement, will find itself on the brink of bankruptcy again. Lets not forget, the Paris Club has merely re-scheduled the Pakistani debt and not cancelled it. IMF will not release more payments if the sanctions are reimposed. Pakistan has five months to get its economic house in order and the sentiment on the Hill is that it will not get another ``Indian Summer``.

Pakistan needs to keep these issues in mind and it needs to deal with their potential significance to its national intergrity, which is of a far more serious nature than any Indian military build-up could pose to its security. Pakistan should have de-linked its India centric policies after the 1971 disaster, but it did not. I can understand the issues of 1971, in the present InterActs, and the questions being raised on the nature of treason, but those are academic questions. Pakistan and India can re-fight the 1971 war and its premutations endlessly, like a serialization of Rambo movies, but it still will not alter the reality that Pakistan can not economically, militarily, or demographically hope to attai