Face to face with the Indian Muslims

Yes this article or essay or reportage is one sided, myopic, jaundiced and prejudicial. Yet it does reaises some interesting questions. Perhaps the editors included this article so that we can have a lively debate.

Iconoclast & Satyavadi:

As I read your responses I could not help but chuckle. Your responses displayed the same jaundiced view you accused the author of displaying.

Rana:

Where is your usual moderate self? Why this uptight defensiveness?


Please allow me to pose some questions.

1a: What is the population of Mumbai?
1b: What is the percentage of Muslim in Mumbai?
1c: What is the percentage of Muslims listed in the Mumbai telephone directory?

(As an exercize in fairness, one can substitute Delhi, Calcutta or any other major city).

2: Why in an ostensibly secular democratic India, the religious identities of victims in riots (communal or otherwise) are usually not revealed immediately?

3: Why does Indian national anthem specifically
mentions Sindh?

Just curious,

regards

Re:

Hindu fundamentalism is on the rise in India. Ironically, this fundamentalism today is increasing due to the real and also perceived threat of Muslim fundamentalism. In which other country could a set of people cheer the neighbouring country`s cricket team when they play in their own country. When a few muslims do this, i have to only hang my head in shame. This kind of Behavior gives rise to hindu fear of being oppressed by the Muslims in the feature. These few muslims who do it do it not out of genuine concerns but of their own selish motives. Likewise, we have too many Hindus who use the mask of the RSS or the VHP to settle personal scores. The same holds good for the Muslims too. Like Jawahara says religious persecution does exist in India, both Muslims, Hindus and Christians do suffer due to this. And this is a direct offshoot of our political system and our lack of stringent laws , over population, poverty and uneducation. We need grass root level awareness campaigns, local self governing bodies which could restrict riots, and other such happenings within their limits and avoid spill overs all over the country. India would have been a difficult place for the minorities if only Hindus were a single religous block. Hinduism is not the protector of other religions. It is the pluralism in Hinduism which is the protector of other religions. Thus a Tamil Hindu has more in common with a Tamil Muslim than with a Kashmiri Hindu. And like a fragile ecosystem India survives day to day.We need more Jawaharas in our country.

In another thread, i think, at the household level, when women are empowered be they hindus or muslims, a lot of these chest beating, macho manias would come to an end.

Re : Ranaransher

Cool friend, you are stepping right into the trap.

You need not get agitated over something that has little relevance to the Indians in India. We know were we come from. We know how we lived in india. and we also know how we should live. Lets do our bit to remove misconceptions among our neighbours and friends in india across religious lines .

iconoclast

To temporal and others :

I am happy that my response made you chuckle, but would you please tell me the reason behind it. I dont think there was anything amusing to you in my article, because I called your (Pakis` and Bangaldeshi`s) bluff.

As for your quesiton about telephone directory etc.I Dont have any information and we people dont classify people on basis of religion in telephone directories, so i guess no one would be able to help you with that.

As for your other questions :

1.The religions of riot victims is not disclosed exactly because India is secular. We donot want to incite a particular group by the inforamtion that

today the toll on their side was more and then the other tomorrow if the table`s turned. This is done in the interests of all people.

Ans 2 :

People both Hindus and Muslims die in riots ( I donot mention othr religions as they are seldom involved), and almost all those who die are generally from the lower castes.

Muslims share the balme as much as the Hindus and there are no less butchers in either community. The only thing is that most Muslims are unitd in the butchry, whereas Hindu butchers have hard tim finding butchers, because of the inherent tolerance and pacifism as well as individualism of Hinduism, as against the ``Pro-Action``(euphemism)

and community driven Islam.

Ans 3: As for this question, our anthem was written by Nobel laureate Rabindranath Tagore before independence and included all areas of United India including,,,Punjab Sindh , Bengal.

We didnt find it necessary to delete the reference to Sindh, as its no longer aprt of India, partly because we have quite a few Sindhis in India.

SOME MORE FAMOUS MUSLIMS :

1. Shabana Azmi( Member of Parliament) and Javed Akhtar.. called First couple of Bollywood by some people ( I dont agree with the title)

2. Zakir Hussain and his father Ustad Abdulla Khan: World famous Tabla master

3. Ustad Amjad Ali Khan : very famous Sarod ( I am not much into classical music, so I am not sure) artist.

4. Salman Rushdie : Many wont like his name, but no one can dispute that he is one of the most famous writers of recent times.

5. I will mention MF Hussain again. Just to inform you that he got away with drawing nude paintings of Saraswati( Hindu goddess of learning) and was infact supported by many prominent people in India when some people opposed that.

Temporal, you would do better if you answered questions raised by my and other people`s post about the legitimacy of the clim made by the authore of the pervasive persecution of Muslims and rampant discrimination against them in India.

If it were so, I would not ahve been able to name so many prominent faces with my very limited knowledge.. and my Muslim friends in India would not have been studying in US on their father`s money.

Answer these question, dont avoid them.

I ALSO ASK YOU PAKISTANIS AND BANGALDESHIS TO NAME A FEW NON MUSLIM CLEBRETIES AND PERSONALITIES OF THEIR RESPECTIVE COUNTRIES.. LETS SEE WHO STANDS WHERE..

Grow up guys and come out of the brainwash that you have suffered in your countries and stop these BLATANT LIES.

Satyavadi

To temporal and others :

I am happy that my response made you chuckle, but would you please tell me the reason behind it. I dont think there was anything amusing to you in my article, because I called your (Pakis` and Bangaldeshi`s) bluff.

As for your quesiton about telephone directory etc.I Dont have any information and we people dont classify people on basis of religion in telephone directories, so i guess no one would be able to help you with that.

As for your other questions :

1.The religions of riot victims is not disclosed exactly because India is secular. We donot want to incite a particular group by the inforamtion that

today the toll on their side was more and then the other tomorrow if the table`s turned. This is done in the interests of all people.

Ans 2 :

People both Hindus and Muslims die in riots ( I donot mention othr religions as they are seldom involved), and almost all those who die are generally from the lower castes.

Muslims share the balme as much as the Hindus and there are no less butchers in either community. The only thing is that most Muslims are unitd in the butchry, whereas Hindu butchers have hard tim finding butchers, because of the inherent tolerance and pacifism as well as individualism of Hinduism, as against the ``Pro-Action``(euphemism)

and community driven Islam.

Ans 3: As for this question, our anthem was written by Nobel laureate Rabindranath Tagore before independence and included all areas of United India including,,,Punjab Sindh , Bengal.

We didnt find it necessary to delete the reference to Sindh, as its no longer aprt of India, partly because we have quite a few Sindhis in India.

SOME MORE FAMOUS MUSLIMS :

1. Shabana Azmi( Member of Parliament) and Javed Akhtar.. called First couple of Bollywood by some people ( I dont agree with the title)

2. Zakir Hussain and his father Ustad Abdulla Khan: World famous Tabla master

3. Ustad Amjad Ali Khan : very famous Sarod ( I am not much into classical music, so I am not sure) artist.

4. Salman Rushdie : Many wont like his name, but no one can dispute that he is one of the most famous writers of recent times.

5. I will mention MF Hussain again. Just to inform you that he got away with drawing nude paintings of Saraswati( Hindu goddess of learning) and was infact supported by many prominent people in India when some people opposed that.

Temporal, you would do better if you answered questions raised by my and other people`s post about the legitimacy of the clim made by the authore of the pervasive persecution of Muslims and rampant discrimination against them in India.

If it were so, I would not ahve been able to name so many prominent faces with my very limited knowledge.. and my Muslim friends in India would not have been studying in US on their father`s money.

Answer these question, dont avoid them.

Apparently, paranoia exists on both sides of the religious divide in India. Yes, Muslims are poor, but then so are Hindus.

The author of the article presented it as a quasi-journalistic piece, though no evidence (even lip service) of neutrality was stressed. So, it devolves into hearsay, with no cross checks. If the author had written of his own personal experience I would have found it more valid.

Are there religion related problems in India? Is there oppression of minorities? Yes. Are the hindus the only ones to blame? No. If only for the fact, that we allow our mullahs to fill people`s head with nonsense. As muslims in India, we need to shoulder the responsibility to educate our people, instead of waiting around for the government of the week to be our saviour.

We all know successful and unsuccessful muslims and hindus in India. I probably will write more later, but till then, bye.

What a load of crap ? SO now we have Bangladeshi tourists giving OP-EDs on how THEY view things in India ? THe title got me curious, but it just turned out to be a bunch of mundane propaganda, the kind, incidently, the author seems to accuse others of.

So you believe that there is no Bangladeshi migration to India. THe whole Assam crisis where the Christians have become somewhat minorities is a figment of someones imagination. DO international boundaries mean anything to you ? Was partition real or not ?
THe newspapers in India, all independant, are accused of doctoring up numbers and making up stories about Bangladeshi migration. These same newspapers are accused of being leftist and pseudo-secular when they write about burning Christians but are PREVENTED by the GOVT of India from writing about 300,000 Kashmiri Hindus living in refugee camps fearing they might cause communal riots.
Well, in Delhi, our cable operator is a Bangladeshi Muslim who tells us how he crossed the border. He has an established business and hires Bangladeshis. He tells us of many more. Our neighbours in Dehra Dun were murdered by a Bangladeshi servant. Well, if there are no Bangladeshis coming in where do these guys pop up from.

You say mosques are dilapitated. Sir, in a secular country the state does not fund the making of religious buildings and it is not the states responsiblity. This applies to temples, gurudwaras, Bahaii temples, etc. A visiting Paki friend asked me once why Hindus offer money in temples.

Regarding Babri Masjid. Yes it was very clear (based on Indian newspaper and video clippings) that on that fateful day the police did not do anything to prevent it. DO YOU KNOW THAT IN A PREVIOUS ATTEMPT THE POLICE HAD FOLLOWED ORDERS AND SHOT at the the advancing mob. Hundreds of Sadhus were killed. Bodies were tossed in the river to hide numbers and ALL THIS WAS IN THE MEDIA. It brought down the then state govt. A detail I am sure, from your myopic Muslim eyes is irrelevant.

All this trade business is bull. You have not mentioned any prominent Muslim business communities that rule parts of Gujarat, Bombay Mysore, Calcutta, Delhi. You mention Hindu store keepers in Ajmer, but you never mention the Muslim artisans and business owners who work in `Hindu` industries and dominate it.

have you ever chronicled a riot in India. Have you ever been caught in a riot. It is the most heinous crimes of them all done behind a veil of anonymity provided by being a MOB. All this Muslim persecution complex will go right away the moment you see the naked truth, which actually has very little to do with ANY religion, but the flames of which can be fueled by it.

basically, you view everybody as MUSLIMS and other. You include nobody in your UMMAH. Even your allegations in this article are all hearsay, in fact, they reflect your own insecurities. You should when making such strong and acidic allegations have some facts. Opinion, only gets you so far.

I am beginning to believe all you guys are right though. The TNT should have been supported by Hindus. They were not united then and even now are far from it. I wouldn`t be surprised that soon Hindus will start asking for a separate Hindu nation. There is Pakistan, Bangladesh. They are real. Yet, in India Muslims still view Hindus with contempt. A Hindu shopkeeper means discrimination. Somebody may see it as Hindus and Muslims in harmony, but no, the persecution complex waalas have to say it is discrimination. There is poverty all over India, but you see only the Muslim poor and that too as victims of Hindus.

Have any of you ever asked yourself how come there are very few NON MUSLIMS in Pakistan and Bangladesh, while in India there are still a high number of NON-HINDUS. Or they not worth talking about ?

And I know for a fact, that no Muslim would ever include me their world view which would probably start and stop at the Ummah. What do you expect from me ?
Little wonder that the BJP is going from strength to strength. I still am the biggest critic of the BJP, but I am beginning to realise that they are probably my only allies. And I need to quit seeing people as people, something I was falsely indoctrinated with while growing up in secular instituions in India. I need to start seeing us as Hindus and Muslims.

I have lived in Bangladesh and have been hounded by people asking ``Are you Muslim`` all day in and day out. I have also watched Muslims looting and burning hapless Hindu dwellings in retaliation (?) to something happening in India. I would, still, never call all Bangladeshis bigotted towards Hindus, simply because there are plenty of exceptions and someone stupid Indian MUSLIM said, ``Insaan insaan hotaa haiN. Kuch sahi kuch ghalat``

To the author of this article,

FOR YOUR INFORMATION HERE IS A LIST OF SOME FAMOUS INDIAN MUSLIMS :

* Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed and Zakir Hussain : Presidents of India

* Maulana Abul Kalam Azad : First education minister of India

* APJ Abdul Kalam : Man behind Pokhran and Agni

Also he is BAHRAT RATNA

* Shahnaz Hussain : Buisness woman famous for her Shahnaz Hussain brand of herbal cosmetics.

Richest women in Asia according to some magazine.

* Abdul Hamid : Pramvir Chakra ( highest military honor).. Well sung hero of 1965 war, know by every educated Indian

* M F Hussain: Most clebrated Indian painter and artist

* Dilip Kumar : Most popular Indian actor ironically also Nishan-e-Haider ( pak civil award)

* Meena Kumari and Madhubala, Waheeeda Rehman,

Saira Bano, Zeenat Aman etc.. all very popular actresses..

* Ruling Khan trio of Bollywood : Shahrukh, Salman and Amir

* Azharuddin : Most successful indian captain

* Mansoor Ali Khan Pataudi : Youngest captain in cricket history until recently..



* Tennis Stars : Syed Fazluddin.. Zeeshan Ali..

and others.. All have played or are playing for Indian davis cup team

* A R Rahman : Most expensive Indian Music director of Rangeela and Bombay fame

* Farooq Abdullah : A respected Kasmiri fellow in Indian polity know for his patriotism

* Salman Khurshid : Another politican, who heads the Congress in the largest Indian state UP ( of the size of Pak and Bangladesh)

* Najma Heptulla : Another Congress politician

billed by many to be the President of India in the coming 10 years

* A S Ahmedi : Former Chief justice of India and consitutional expert.

There are countless others are very famous, but I havent been able to list because of my limited knowledge.

Also I have had many Muslims friedns in my school and college whcich were all in the posh areas of my city in India. many of them were from middle and upper calss families.

In my class of 60 ( and I have a professional degree) in my college 8 were Muslims. That goes above their proportion of 10-12 % of population

of my city and country as a whole.

three of them have come to the US for higher studies woithout any financial aid from the univ, from which you can guage their economic condition.

Yes there are poor Muslims and very poor muslims as there are middlec class(like me) Muslims and there are rich muslims. This is true for any religious group in India (except Parsis who despite being the smallest group are very rich).

I am surprised by your ``ability`` to meet only poor Muslims in india and none of the rich ones...like the ones who all live in big Bungalows near my house, where I live in a small flat ( and I am a Hindu upper business cast) .

So,please stop faking your concern for Indian muslims and manage your affairs..You donot have a dearth of problems and poverty in Bangaldesh and Pakistan.

Your fake concern will only accentuate India`s problems and Indian muslims problems.

Thanks

Satyavadi

Re:

Most of this is indeed true in pockets of India. However the article appears highly one sided and jaundiced. ? We muslims also are to be blamed for our status in India. When a few muslims have done so well in so many professions such as Doctors, Scientists, engineers, and Business men and artists, film stars etc., the majority is poor because they do not utilize the opportunities available to them. India does not have state sponsored reservations against muslims. Of all my other Muslim friends in india, everyone of them have done very well in both academics and life. The article does not paint the bright side of Indian Muslims.

Why not quote the muslim position in the Indian Film Industry, the painters, the sculptors the artitists, the famous scientists, and the doctors and engineers and governors, and collectors who happen to be muslims. The current governor of TamilNadu is a Muslim woman, our last three collectors have been Muslims in my district. The richest individual in my city is also a muslim.

But then, people only want to believe what they would like to believe. You need to live in India as a muslim and must take part in the mainstream by using all opportunities for education and employment. If my arguments don`t convince the readers, let me put it this way. I am an indian and I am a Muslim and i am happy to be both. And i don`t want to lose both these identities and will fight to preserve them both equally.

But then, communalism has started increasing and we need to put an end to it and all (muslims, hindus and christians) have to identify the politicians and the neighbouring countries who are responsible for trying to divide the people for their own good. Hope India stays the way i know it. Secular, tolerant and democratic and pluralistic.

Iconoclast