Face to face with the Indian Muslims

Re: Omar



One clarification .. The Indian government is today against the LTTE. So am I and so are my brothers in Canada. Today everyone of us have realized that LTTE as a force i idealogically bereft of any sanity. All we hope for is peace. The Indian government is against Prabhakaran for Rajiv`s murder . It is not against all LTTEs or those who were from the LTTE in the past. GET IT.

That apart, The Sri Lankan Tamils are not against the Sri Lankan Tamil Muslims. Tamils by themselves are not Hindutvavadis. They for the most part are pro-muslim. There are enough muslims even today in the LTTE. The LTTE is a pro-tamil organization not a pro-tamil hindu. Don`t talk about things you don`t understand or know about ? Stick to sueing everybody on planet earth (BTW are you taking your bar exams at all ?)

Note : While there are many tigers in India, there are some hyenas in Pakistan. The dry and arid mountainous climate of Pakistan is conducive for such hyenas who desperately need a kill. And since hyenas don`t eat hyenas but only the other animals, they look to the tigers for supplying them with their food. And this food is in plenty in neighbouring India. Earlier these hyenas tried the same with Bangladesh which was when they lost one leg. Pity the Bangladeshi tigers did not knock off the hyenas teeth instead.... so much for zoology.

Wah, how brilliant , omar. You are worthy of being a mirza for being so subtle in allegory. you are great.....

iconoclast

Re: Omar

As I had promised earlier this message would be posted by me everytime you post something that ridicules Indian secularism. Happy reading ..

You said ,

``If you can convince her (gladys stains) alone, that India is both Secular, and tolerant, and democratic and pluralistic as a society, then I will speak out no more against the myth of a Secular tolerant India. ``

-- Now honour your words and stop speaking against the (myth or not) of a secular tolerant India. Gladys Stains had publicly acknowledged that she considers India a secular and tolerant enough. She does not perceive the act of a few hooligans as the act of the majority of the people. ( i had given her actual words and the related URLs earlier ). Lets see how long you can hold your honour.

Iconoclast

Re-posting due to Server problem

There is a ‘tiger’ (as I previous defined the term) here, who has embraced the very real ‘tigers’; LITTE terrorists and their hard core supporters openly. He proclaims his eternal brotherhood with the very people he acknowledges financially, politically, and militarily support the LITTE in Sri Lanka. His acknowledgement of this bloody deed is just 2 articles below in the replies section. The irony of course is that he has openly proclaimed his eternal brotherhood with the very same people thirsty for his brother’s blood. His innocent brother’s death, he has not taken it upon himself to avenge. Far from that, he has embraced his brother’s killers while they are still dressed in their bloodied rags, soiled by the hardly coagulated blood of his true brothers, the hapless Sri Lankan Muslims. His brother’s children, were orphaned only yesterday, they have not yet stopped crying, the tears in their eyes have not yet stopped flowing, much less dried up, yet he sings the praises of peace and amity with their killers. May G-D have mercy on the souls of such misguided ‘tigers’, blinded by the ideology they have sold their souls for; Indian Secularism above all. It seems they care for little else. Nothing is amiss, if Secularism is the shroud that covers thy brother’s butchered corpse. We live merrily, for yet another day. Singing joyful secular songs of freedom. Having exchanged cumbersome green glasses for more trendy Saffron tinted red ones. No, that is being too generous. Such people carry a white cane and wear dark glasses only. The sun has long ago set for them, they no longer make use of their vision. They don’t need it anyway anymore. They dream upon Indian Secularism. Tis become their Salvation in this life, and the hereafter. They prostrate themselves daily at its feet. ROOZ Prasad charhatee hain iss ko yeh loog. ROOZ Saaley Aarti utaar tay hein! For such blinded fools the lord of the worlds has stated clearly that if they prefer the company (this part I distastefully relate but it is the Truth) of Jews, Christians, etc then their accounting on the day of judgement will not be with us, but with them instead. (I am paraphrasing a ‘politically incorrect’ Quranic verse herein).



Omar Mirza

JAI HIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is a ‘tiger’ (as I previous defined the term) here, who has embraced the very real ‘tigers’; LITTE terrorists and their hard core supporters openly. He proclaims his eternal brotherhood with the very people he acknowledges financially, politically, and militarily support the LITTE in Sri Lanka. His acknowledgement of this bloody deed is just 2 articles below in the replies section. The irony of course is that he has openly proclaimed his eternal brotherhood with the very same people thirsty for his brother’s blood. His innocent brother’s death, he has not taken it upon himself to avenge. Far from that, he has embraced his brother’s killers while they are still dressed in their bloodied rags, soiled by the hardly coagulated blood of his true brothers, the hapless Sri Lankan Muslims. His brother’s children, were orphaned only yesterday, yet he sings the praises of peace and amity with their killers. May G-D have mercy on the souls of such misguided ‘tigers’, blinded by the ideology they have sold their souls for; Indian Secularism above all. It seems they care for little else. Nothing is amiss, if Secularism is the shroud that covers thy brother’s butchered corpse. We live merrily, for yet another day. Singing joyful secular songs of freedom. Having exchanged cumbersome green glasses for more trendy Saffron tinted red ones. No, that is being too generous. Such people carry a white cane and wear black glasses only. The sun has long ago set for them, they no longer make use of their vision. They don’t need it anyway anymore. They dream upon Indian Secularism. Tis become their Salvation in this life, and the hereafter. They prostrate themselves daily at its feet. ROOZ Prasad charhatee hain iss ko yeh loog. For such blinded fools the lord of the worlds has stated clearly that if they prefer the company (this part I distastefully relate but it is the Truth) of Jews, Christians, etc then their accounting on the day of judgement will not be with us, but with them instead. (I am paraphrasing a ‘politically incorrect’ Quranic verse herein).



Omar Mirza

I take note of the Irony that while it has been 7 years since the demolition of Barbri Masjid in `Secular` India, it has not been rebuilt despite a number of promises by the Indian govt to do so.

Quite the contrary, work on Ram Madir continues unabated. It is now suggested that Babri Masjid be rebuilt elsewhere.

Whereas, in the aftermath of the demolition of Babri Masjid in 1992 and widespread anti-Muslim riots in India, which resulted in over 2,000 Indian Muslim, `endangered and nationally protected tigers` dead, there were indeed anti-Hindu riots in Islamic/Fundamentalist/Intolerant Pakistan. While few Hindu lives were lost, approx 30 small Hindu temples were damaged and destroyed. These however were promptly repaired and rebuilt with the intolerant, bigotted Pakistani govt`s funding.

If Indian Secularists don`t like TRUTH. They should CHOKE on it. But they continue ... to unabashedly take the `Nazar` off/utarnaa of Indian Secularism.

Omar Mirza

Reposting, seems not to have made it in order submitted 1st

Since the Truth seems to have eluded many, including Truth itself, therefore it bears repeating. Neither do I claim to be in possession of any divine Truth, nor do i tolerate those who wish to propagate any divine Truth as political orthodoxy without challenging them, be they in clerical or secular garb. Neither to put it mildly am I am proponent of Religious Rule by self-declared-divines who claim communion with godot. In fact the Truth is far from it. But stand me in front of an idea I deem hypocritical! Why you shall hear an earful. Reports of my bigotry are greatly exaggerated. It’s a convenient tool to attempt to discredit my argument which when necessary is prepared to proclaim the ‘possibility of another Truth’ even to the extent of near lewdness in cyberspace, (an occasional sledgehammer:).

Islam in America. Hmm. Well, since I honestly believe that the American system is not in general prejudiced against minorities[Abner Louima,and Rodney KIng may well disagree with me] (Unlike India where from one perspective its hard for a muslim-sucker to get an even break), I think Muslims will find America to be a safer place than India when it comes to wondering whether they will be the next victims of religiously motivated violence. The American muslim community has started to assert its growing political power. State Assemblymen now court their votes outside mosques, the mayor of N.Y too finds himself standing outside a mosque before prayers have ended courting votes. The American-Paki vote/contributions will not soon be forgotten by former Senator Larry Pressler, an ardent and all too willing tool of the Indian Congressional lobby. The Muslim community has organized itself at a local level in many places across the land of freedom, this is but the first step towards grass roots political involvement. Long term demographic trends favor muslims in both North America and the U.K. Again I stress I have no problems with Secularism, just Indian Secularism, because it is not quite what it purports itself to be. But I think if you look back at my comments regarding the manticore etc and what that means for Indian muslims you’ll come to the realization that I have never actually embraced a Uni-dimensional view. So too do I reject the Uni-dimensional views trotted out here on Chowk by faithful defenders of India, watched over closely by their zoo keepers, who paint an overly rosy picture as I said earlier, and are prepared to gloss over Truth itself in the process. In fairness, to both India and myself, ‘there is more to us than meets the jaundiced eye.’

Regards,

Omar Mirza

AN ODE TO A POLITICALLY CORRECT CHOWKIE LIBERAL

A little to the left

A little to the right

Tis well done

If we accomplish all without fright or fight



Its all right

‘cause we’re all so bright

Never mind ugly truths

Never mind borrowed lies

Never mind uncomfortable sighs

Alls well that ends without a fright or a fight

Its all right

‘Cause we’re all so bright

Lets hear it for

Safe Speech, not Free Speech

Where were they, these liberals?

When my one of my Uncles was branded a genocidal butcher right here on Chowk while they silently watched?

Where were they, these liberals when India celebrated her Union with a Secular bride with the slaughter of my paternal grandparents by Sikhs in ’47 in front of my father and Uncle’s eyes?

Where were they, these Chowkie liberals,

When my aunt was carried off to be raped and killed by the very same Sikhs on the very same

Indian-Secular-honeymoon night?

Where were they these Chowkwallas when my father and Uncle were left for dead in pools of their own blood in the orgy of the celebrations of the Indian-Secular honeymoon?

Outta the closet now, Out! Out! Come crawling outta the woodwork now! I wanna hear your voices!

Or, is it all right

`Cause we`re all so bright

By Omar Mirza

ALL MY POSTS SHOULD BE READ IN ASCENDING ORDER

On Second thought ... continuing from my last post, perhaps I should not have used the word, `clash`, perhaps a more appropriate word is `mating`. The end result of the mating between Secular India and Hindu Fundamentalism is likely to be neither entirely secular nor entirely fundamentalist. It shall be a bas#ard. An entirely Indian bas#ard. This is after all Indian reality, and this is the idea that Salaman Rushdie expresses so clearly about Indian-ness. I understand.

If my language seems a bit brutal, you can put it down to the fact I have just begun to learn Croquet. Perhaps when I have quite mastered the art of swinging a mallet, for I expect like a good vintage wine to improve with the passage of both time and age, you shall begin to lust for my ever sweet verbiage as you would the sensuous whores, er actresses of your fancy. Reality is for those suffering from a distinct lack of alcohol.

Regards as always, (grin)

Omar Mirza

One Truth, deserves anothor. The irony is NOT lost on me. (There being 2 sides to every coin) However, I had better place my bet on whether Indian Secularism will survive its clash with Hindu Fanaticism soon, with a Bombay bookie, while the odds are still in favor of the former, and the latter is still regarded as a dark horse, not quite a full fledged CONTENDER YET. If i really want to make a killing, i should act sooner rather than later, time is against me if i`m to make a few quick bucks.

Omar Mirza

JAI HIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OMAR MIRZA

RE: Faraz

``The fact remains that Pakistan`s ideology is

tied to history not just to an abstract political

concept.``

I actually do believe that Pakistan was founded

on a bogus and bankrupt ideology, and I certainly

hope that I am right. I just cannot believe that

it is true that people could want to segregate

people, and kick out a section of their own

community, on the basis of religion alone. And

then you complain about untouchability being a

``hindu`` problem? I find it really shocking that

you think that only muslims could have found the

Kosovo situation appalling, and that too only

becoz the afflicted were themselves muslims. Get

a world view man!

Now you talk about Pakistan`s ideology being tied

to history. So maybe you can answer this question

which I have asked many times, and on many

forums: When did this alleged oppression of

muslims by the Hindus take place? Was it so

widespread that partition was the only way out?

How is it that all manner of religous communities

have found shelter and prospered in India

(christians, jews, parsi`s etc), yet it was only

the muslims that were ``oppressed``?

Faraz:

India is not supporting NATO not because of lack of sympathy of the Kosovars but because of the stupidity of the NATO bombing. If you think that NATO should be supported just because the people who are suffering at the hands of the Serbs are Muslims, then you are blind and bigoted. Your enemy`s enemy is not necessarily your friend.

If you would be uncomfortable living in India, I`m sorry to hear that. Part of the reason why Muslims are uncomfortable in India is because of the creation of your country. Its easy for you to be smug now. And to be exactly parallel, you should compare the lives of miniscule minorities of Pakistan against lives of Muslims in India. You were not the only people living in todays Pakistan - that you think your comfort determines whether Pakistan makes sense is reflective of the self-absorption of the Muslim League and Pakistan.

Re: Faraz

`` I would like to see exactly what it is that people are finding offensive. That he thinks Muslims are discriminated against in India? ``

-- While Omar is entitled to his views, his statements at times borders on the fringe of lunacy . He is the only poster who makes a post and then claims credit for his intelligence and victory. He comes across most of the time as one confused individual who thinks that he has come across a brilliant idea and starts espousing his cause with little or no concern to what the others have to say about it.

`` exactly why are some people so touchy? ``

-- Because in spite of the BJP and the RSS we Indians in general would like to think of our country as secular. Unlike in Pakistan where the state and the religion symbolises the same. This essential dichotomy is near to our heart since it is the very fabric of our existence. For you discrimination might be okay, for us it must be fought . See the difference, don`t ya ?

`` Consequently, any mention of discrimination against Muslims in India is seen as an attack against secularism in India and thus a vindication of the 2 nation theory. Absolute crap! ``

-- I agree with this statement. However Rana`s statement is probably due to the frustration of replying to Omar and not having him take cognisance of it.

`` 2. You would think the Indian secularists themselves would be most concerned about the treatment of Muslims in India today. ``

-- Indian secularists ofcourse are concerned about treatment of all minorities. Did you not see the way the whole country reacted to the recent anti-christian events. In fact, the Indian secularists are concerned more about the treatment of all its people . Thus they need to be as concerned about a muslim in Bihar as a christian in Orissa or a Hindu in Kashmir. They however are not perfect....but they are atleast trying hard to discern the truth.

`` That does not mean I cannot have an honest opinion as to the treatment of minorities there. We are living in the information age after all. And from what I have seen on TV ``

-- What you see or hear on TV is subject to perception. You also see hindi movies, i suppose. Did you feel that Indian Muslims are doing great when you see that the leading film stars who make millions of ruppees are all Muslims. You would`nt ? When you look at how well i am doing, will you believe that discrimination is not as you perceive it in India ? again you will not.. because you would like to believe only what you want to believe??

``I have to say I would not feel cormfortable living in India as a Muslim. ``

-- True.. just as much as i would probably feel if i had not been an Indian Muslim . We are not trying to get the approval of anyone outside india on our secularism. All we need is the approval of those within india. This whole argument actually really does not matter. We don`t have to convince anyone outside our country of our secularism or discrimination .

`` 3. Last but not least let`s talk about Kosovo. Can anyone explain to me why a country with 200 million Muslims (who supposedly have political power and are not discriminated against) is not actively opposing the genocide in Kosovo by a communist dictator and instead protesting the secular and democratic nations trying to put a stop to it? ``

-- We are infact against the genocide in Kosovo as much as any other muslim nation is . It is just that we are against the bombing by Nato since we perceive it as a violation of boundaries . Let me put it this way, we are just plain scared of what might happen if a rebellion is created in say tamil nadu by the tamil seperatists, and a government in the center mishandles it and it becomes a genocide and people start moving to srilanka, and if the NATO starts bombing India....

Now that you raised this issue, let me ask you something else, why are the muslim nations such as Arabia, Iraq, Iran, and the gulf countries, plus Malaysia and Indonesia not committed towards the Kosovars as Pakistan is ?? Is it probable that Pakistan is taking the concept of the Muslim Ummah more serious than the other islamic countries do ?????

Tailpiece :

Many people are proud of many different things when it comes to their nations.

Nawaz Sharief may be proud that there`s is an Islamic nation.

BJP might claim Garv se kaho hum hindu hai.

But for an average indian such as myself (muslim or not), pride comes from the fact that religion does not decide my government. And this pride needs to become more real than it is now.

iconoclast

Re: OMAR1974

Omar, please educate a lost soul, but just what excatly do you gain by posting a litany of InterActs!?

Would it not be beneficial to your arguments if you could put your arguments-comments in one posting? My friend, you are creating an impression of a dis-organized mind despite your legal credentials and that is hardly conducive towards a career whose bread and butter is the concise employment of lexiographic skills!

My friend, and I say this in a jest, you are pulling on so many InterAct! threads that you are in danger, if you do not watch out, of tearing apart the fabric of your logic at its very seams!!!

re: Omar

I beg your pardon but I think you misunderstood what I wrote about. I understood the comparison you made and saw it as being completely ridiculous and irrelavant. You just wanted to talk about tigers. Tigers don`t kill for religion, and other man made differences, the way we humans do. Tigers are very noble in that sense. They kill for food and rarely become man eaters. The ones who do are old, maimed (injured from charra fire of poachers).

I found it ironical that you picked tigers, and I decided to play along. I arrogantly stated that ``Hindu India`` with its ``multiple truths`` which see the divine in a lot of things (including tigers) even protects ``tigers`` and is the only country with a program of its nature. I happened to have numbers on it. It is and will be the last remaining abode of ``tigers in the wild``.

I also asked about when ``Tigers`` got extinct in Pakistan (this Indo-Pak peniscontest is only for the benefit of Omar, I apologize to the rest cause I agree this should not be an Indo-Pak mudslinging contest).
Or were there any similar programs for ``wildlife`` in Pakistan ?

Omar its good to be a legend in ones own mind but then sometimes its not.