Bombs, Missiles and Pakistani Science

Re: Saad Shafqat

Saad,

Thanks for speaking of me in the same breath as Parvez Hoodbhoy, but I don`t deserve it. As Akbar said about Sir Syed,

hamArI bAteN hI bAtEN haeN, sayyad kAm kartA haE

More seriously, it is great that you and Anita are planning to go back. I join SR in wishing you the very best, and have no doubt that you will do very well. However, on this day when Eqbal Ahmad passed away with his dreams of Khaldunia unfulfilled, I cannot imagine giving up what you so kindly call a `flourishing academic career` to go bang my head against the wall of the Pakistani establishment in order to establish something worthwhile. Indeed, all of your suggestions would require me to give up my `flourishing academic career`, and one --- joining Imran Khan --- would mean giving up my principles as well.

The kind of movement we need requires someone who is completely selfless, totally obsessed, eternally optimistic, and, yes, absolutely shameless. In other words, someone like Syed Ahmad Khan, who had no hesitation in doing whatever it took to fulfill his ideal. Such men (or women) are born once in decades --- perhaps centuries. I am not that person. I like my career. I love my armchair. But, as Milton might have said had he followed this discussion, they also serve who only sit and gripe:-). You know, complaining well is an art, and can be very useful. Indeed, complaining is a very large part of what even great reformers have done. Read the Bible --- it is full of complaints! But you know what? I`d rather complain from the US of A -- well beyond the reach of ISI or SSP or XXX, YYY, and ZZZ --- rather than in Lahore or Islamabad, like Najam Sethi. Parvez Hoodbhoy is brave enough to say what he says given where he is. Don`t ask him to be any braver lest some midnight caller come knocking on his door too. There is no glory in that.

Best Wishes,

Ali

PS for SR: Thanks for coming to my defence, but I don`t mind what Saad says. He is a very dear friend, and what he says is true. I just don`t agree with it:-):-).

Please Sir, can the good Doctor publish this article in India too, with the words Pakistan and India substituted for the word Pakistan?

I wish there was some way to reach the author with this request. I am certain most of India`s major national newspapers (The Times of India, Hindustan Times, Hindu, and perhaps, Indian Express) as well as national mags like India Today and The Weekly would be pleased to publish such an objective and well crafted piece. And if any of them doesn`t -- Gosh, I would like to know that too, for that will certainly destroy my delusions about the Indian press.

Chowk staff and other friends, can someone pass on this suggestion to esteemed author? Alternatively, just send me his address at premshukla@hotmail.com

Thanks a million.

Prem

P.S.: I chanced upon this forum today and was enormously impressed. So long as there is such free thinking in Pakistan and India, I am hopeful for the two countries.

Re: Saad

[``...I am relocating to Pakistan next year where I hope to devote myself to ...advancing the biomedical sciences in Pakistan...``]

More power to you brother! I salute your bravery and admire your idealism, but I am not the least bit envious of your future predicament.

An ancient Chinese saying goes thus: It is better to strike one match stick than to curse the eternal darkness. You surely will be striking a match stick in that eternal darkness which clouds the Indus Valley of today. May guardian angels watch over you and your family in that inhospitable wilderness.

Having said this, I still insist that you step out of line when you judge others because they are mere ``armchair critics`` and have no interest in rolling up their sleves and getting down and dirty. To each his own.

Our new friend, Ali, may not be one to go and lead a campaign for the progress of science in the ``Islamabad Republic`` (I stand admonished and thus shall not use the term `Phuckistan` --which, BTW, describes, rather graphically, what muck the supposed `Land of the Pure`has turned into), but that does not make his arguments and observations invalid. Before you admonish him or our good friend, Dr.PH of QAU, I ask that you consider the merit of their observations with a dispassionate frame of mind and don`t get indignant that they `just talk and DO nothing`. Some talk, some do, some talk AND do. Again, to each his own.

...SR

PS: Before you go off next year, we must do that picnic you got everyone excited about...Then, years later, when we`ll read on the cover of TIME, about ``The Man Who Singlehandedly Revolutionized Medicine in a Third World Backwater Area of Korangi``, we`ll be able to brag to bystanders that we attended a picnic, with none other than the great Saad himself. :)

Re: Saad

[``...I am relocating to Pakistan next year where I hope to devote myself to ...advancing the biomedical sciences in Pakistan...``]

More power to you brother! I salute your bravery and admire your idealism, but I am not the least bit envious of your future predicament.

An ancient Chinese saying goes thus: It is better to strike one match stick than to curse the eternal darkness. You surely will be striking a match stick in that eternal darkness which clouds the Indus Valley of today. May guardian angels watch over you and your family in that inhospitable wilderness.

Having said this, I still insist that you step out of line when you judge others because they are mere ``armchair critics`` and have no interest in rolling up their sleves and getting down and dirty. To each his own.

Our new friend, Ali, may not be one to go and lead a campaign for the progress of science in the ``Islamabad Republic`` (I stand admonished and thus shall not use the term `Phuckistan` --which, BTW, describes, rather graphically, what muck the supposed `Land of the Pure`has turned into), but that does not make his arguments and observations invalid. Before you admonish him or our good friend, Dr.PH of QAU, I ask that you consider the merit of their observations with a dispassionate frame of mind and don`t get indignant that they `just talk and DO nothing`. Some talk, some do, some talk AND do. Again, to each his own.

...SR

PS: Before you go off next year, we must do that picnic you got everyone excited about...Then, years later, when we`ll read on the cover of TIME, about ``The Man Who Singlehandedly Revolutionized Medicine in a Third World Backwater Area of Korangi``, we`ll be able to brag to bystanders that we attended a picnic, with none other than the great Saad himself. :)

Re: SR (reply #27).

Unfortunately I have been unable to directly engage Dr. Hoodbhoy here and in part the statement that has offended you comes from frsutration at his choosing not to InterAct with us. The point I am hoping to make is straightforward. Pakistan`s success with nuclear technology shows that money and official endorsement can achieve quite a bit even in a Third World country like Pakistan. Everything can be approached in a negative way or a positive way. We may not agree with Pakistan`s nuclear weapons program but the achievement was certainly not trivial (even Dr. Hoodbhoy says as much). Rather than send reactionary articles to Pakistani newspapers, I should think the sincere and intellligent well-wishers of Pakistani science would now try to see how the same kind of money and official endorsement can be realized for the more purely scientific areas of endeavor. Articles like the one here may appeal to armchair critics like yourself, but they close off the possibility of dialogue with the government and actually hurt the prospects of scientifc development in Pakistan. I am relocating to Pakistan next year where I hope to devote myself to the science of stroke epidemiology and perhaps to the more general effort at advancing the biomedical sciences in Pakistan.

Saad

PS: I welcome dissent of course, but with civility; I wish you`d stop using words like `Phuckistan.`

To ALL:

Re: ``If you have so much to say about what`s wrong with Phuckistan, then get of your behinds and do something...``

Without naming any names, I`d like to remark that this is another form of `personal attack` and in rather poor taste. If I should have any valid arguments against those who are making certain observations which I find negative, then it behooves me to simply challenge those observations point by point. I`d be less than upright if I stoop to the level of personal credibility issues and begin taunting people that they are not worthy of making any observations because all they do is bad mouth my motherland and sit on their behinds in the US.

If I believe that ``going back doing something`` is the better way then I should be the one to ``GO`` and ``DO``, instead of telling others.

...SR

Re: Godot # 24

Do you have ESP talents by chance?

Apprently I misunderstood the intention of your arguments. If you are suggesting a new system for Pakistan, over a long term, then I would say you are on the mark! To be perfectly honest with you, the more I look in to this question the more I am convinced that most of our problems stem from the confusion; is Pakistan secular or theocratic and this debate seems to polarize Pakistani politics into a realm of rigid incoherence! I think we both agree that solution must be deviced which will clear this problem, which seems to be our misfortune since 1947 and the most disruptive influence on our political system!

I am presently penning an article on this issue of a Pakistani identity and it seems that that you`re once again head of me. The conclusion of my paper seems to support your views and there is a strong suggestion that the policies Pakistan has been following for the past half century are discrediated and not in the interests of Pakistan. I am also coming around to the viewpoint that Pakistan should follow a tabula rasa (clean slate) approach and ditch the ideas of last fifty years and re-create its political identity anew.

I agree that such a task would not be easy, but it must be done if Pakistan is to survive as country into the next century. You are right. We can not rely on the disgraced policies of the past to solve our problems!!!!

Re: Feroz, #22

Feroz, our disagreement, if there is one, seems to be in our central views: you seem to believe that Pakistani political system is not to be blamed, it`s the people who hold power are the rotten crop; fine, I say, I agree with you with the latter part, but it`s the system that has allowed the crud to rise and hold power.

I`m not saying that we replace the system because it`s a bad system. It probably is an excellent system, but not for Pakistan. We must carve a system that is best for Pakistan, in a Pakistani context. Yes, a replacement system must be in place before the current system could be replaced. The bigger challenge is not to come up with an alternative system, but its implementation. I`m not asking to throw the baby out with the bath water! I`m an advocate of a long-term solution, or, 100 years from now, Pakistan would still be where it is today: confused, bankrupt, chaotic, and weak, its leadership ignorant and corrupt, its people poor and without future; it would still be a country, Feroz, where you wouldn`t want to live, just as you don`t today, no matter how much you love it.

Your contention that Pakistan is completely confused about its identity, its political ideology, its judicial system, etc, reinforces my argument that a system must be defined for Pakistan that would clear all this. Not an easy task, my friend!

With refrence to westren aids to be linked to improving conditions in Pakistan and other officially corrupt countries.Please contact Transparency International, They are just trying to do that. Mr. Fritz Heiman can be contacted in Con.USA office at (203) 373 2211 Fax ( 203) 373-2523.

If we find eveidence that western companies are getting contract with kickbacks or the funds are not being used for the purposes it intended. As a Pakistani, We should share all the relative information to their office with followup.

Warm regards to all;

Sufi

Re: Godot #19

The difference, between American politicans ala Rostenkowski et al and their Pakistani counter-parts, is that despite all their faults the Americans still abide by the system. Pakistanis do not!

Godot, my only problem with kicking down the rotten structure of Pakistani system is a question as to what will replace it? Unless we have a replacement ready to go, dis-crediting the present system is not the solution to our problems. Yes, I agree with you that this is a band-aid approach to what basically is a case of massive internal bleeding, but we should not kill the patient just to save him!

You will find no dis-agreements from me on your observations on the decline and fall of the Pakistani system of government, but merely a tangential comment. Remember, our political insitutions are only as good as the people who inhabit them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the intent of our system, but merely with the intent of the people who use them for their own means. There is no sense in denying that the system, as presently structured, is responsible for a host of problems which haunt Pakistan.

The long term security of Pakistan lies in the independence of its political institutions from political nepotism and political patronages. The present difficulties confronting Pakistan can be traced to the immutable reality that Pakistan has no viable political institutions and is presently struggling to define its political identity, as secular or theocratic state, and that confusion has diluted its political institutions to a point of impotence. Just take a glimpse into our judical system. Pakistan is trying to fashion its legal system as based on Islamic principles, but yet retaining the British common law tradition. In this effort to define its legal system, it has created a sense of confusion and has in effect cancelled out the deterrence value of justice with the end result that we have no crediable system for enforcing justice! Should we punish crimes under the Islamic system or the British common law one? Result: no crimes are punished!

In short, I think that we as a nation need to revitalize our political institutions and make them crediable before we can even think of our politicans abiding by their intent. Yes, you are right to say that the system is corrupt and rotten, but that does not mean we should give it up as a lost cause!

Re: Ali Minai (reply #17).

Dear Ali,

I think the point of our intellectual and scientific backwardness is a rather obvious and trivial one. With respect, Ali, Pakistanis like yourself and Pervez Hoodbhoy, who have flourishing scientific careers and who seek the advancement of science in Pakistan, need to get off their behinds and do more for the development of Pakistani science than merely pointing out that Pakistan is lacking in scientific progress. Some suggestions:

1. Contest a seat in the National Assembly or Senate.

2. Develop a movement to undo the feudal stanglehold on Pakistan.

3. Join Imran Khan`s Tehrik-e-Insaaf, the only truly middle-class political organization in Pakistan.

4. Lobby with the PM`s secretariat for more funding for the Pakistan Science Foundation.

5. Use your intellects to do good science from within Pakistan (if the gifted can`t do it, how can we expect the rest to ?)

6. Arrange funds and personnel to create a world-class research institute in Pakistan that has enough money to attract the best Pakistani minds from abroad (and retain the ones from within) and enough resources to ensure all the modern necessities of academic work, including proper library and technical facilities, a safe work environment, and travel support.

Saad

I remember reading an Indian-American expert`s interview who is a giant in the field of nonlinear controls and a former professor at U. Wisconsin. A lover of tilgo poetry and a stanch pacifist, his friends were quite surprise when he accepted the invitation from the Indian government to head the Indian missile program. But his answer was that India doesn`t go around the world invading weaker countries; India is surrounded by enemies [supposedly China and Pakistan]. (IEEE Spectrum, 1994?) That`s what an Indian pacifist is saying and, Pirthavi and Agni might be carrying his signatures. Dr. Hoodbhoy, whose side you are on, sir?

Re: Feroz, #18

``The problem in Pakistan is not system per se, but the people who run the system!``

But isn`t it the system there that has allowed the crud to rise to the top and to hold the future of the nation hostage?

I`d bet that ``bad`` people exist in every religion, society, culture and country; that the percentage of these ``bad`` people is constant across board, but it is not significant, perhaps not more than 5 percent. In some systems they get to the top, hold the power and abuse it to the full extent; in other, they can still rise to the top but are unable to abuse the power to their shameless advantage because the system does not allow it.

You think, Feroz, that Dan Rostenkowski, if he were in Pakistan, would`ve been forced out of the office for a crime that pales in comparison to what takes place in Pakistan?

You think, Feroz, If Nawaz Sharif were in the US, he could get away with $10 billion in default loans to the banks?

It is the system in Pakistan, Feroz, that has allowed individuals there to get away with murder because they are politically powerful.

While it`s true that guns (read system) don`t kill, people do; it`s the gun that is used to kill innocent people.

Re: Godot #16

Yaar, you seem to be two steps ahead of me! :)

That idea of tying western aid is merely an idea I am toying with. The problem is that there needs to be a ground swell of a similar opinion and the abilty to translate that opinion into policy!

Answering the question of Pakistani political system being amended for the better, that would hinge on the ability to change Pakistani leaderships` mindsets. I had a really interesting insight into the problem recently. I had just e-mailed a family friend, in Karachi, to ask for further contacts to aid Dr. Amjad Ali get justice and I mentioned if I should try to contact a certain gentleman who happens to an old family friend and as fate would have it, also happens to be the Speaker of the National Assembly and I was told point-blank not to waste my time! That gentlemen is not interested in helping ordinary people!!!

So my friend, the challenge is how do we make our reps. interested in the ordinary person! How do we make our reps. represent us not their own interests? The problem in Pakistan is not system per se, but the people who run the system!

Re. Saad Shafqat (Rep. #7)

Saad,

I always like it when people agree with me publicly:-). But seriously speaking, your response to my posting provides valid reasons why the four countries I mentioned are doing better scientifically that Pakistan. The question I have is: Why can`t we have a reason to be good too? How is it that all reasons (long tradition of scientific excellence, selfless leaders, ablishing of feudalism, Judaism, etc.) occur only in other countries? We are doing something wrong. In fact, we are doing almost everything wrong. But pointing out the problems one at a time --- as Dr. Hoodbhoy did --- is still better than saying nothing, waiting until a global synopsis of our national failings can be assembled.

Unlike some other respondents, I do think that the issue of how we view Pakistan`s scientific and intellectual ``progress`` is of great significance. The first step in aiming high is to realize one`s true current state. Recall that old Persian saying about four classes of people: 1) Those who know, and know that they know; 2) Those who know, but think they (still) do not know (enough); 3) Those who are ignorant, and realize their ignorance; and 4) Those who are ignorant, and ignorant of their own ignorance. We need to move out of class 4, and it is very important that this happen at a national level.

From my limited experience of Pakistan and Pakistanis, one factor which keeps us from acknowledging our truly miserable state is our national and institutionalized paranoia. When we can blame every problem on the West, the Jews, the Hindus, the CIA, the Foreign Hand, the British, and such, we feel no need to acknowledge our own defects. After all, how could we, the Best of Allah`s People, be intellectually backward? It must either be a foreign conspiracy, or the rest of the world`s criteria for achievement are wrong. Now, I know this is a very exaggerated view, and there are many in Pakistan who do not subscribe to such nonsense, but, unfortunately, our government, our institutions, and our media (to some degree) ahave an over-representation of paranoid reactionaries.

I agree with Ferozk that we need to decide whether Pakistan will be a secular state or a theocracy. From my perspective, there is only one sensible choice --- no prize for guessing which one:-). However, I see no sign that such a choice will be made in the foreseeable future.

One last point specific to my previous post. Indian science may not have reached the height and quality of Western science in general, but in specific areas of engineering, mathematics, and physics, they have a very respectable presence, and vie with the best.

Ali Minai

Re: Feroz, #13

Thanks for the reply.

Your suggestion of tying Western aid to Pakistan with all sorts of good social behavior is probably good in theory only. You and I both know that in order for Pakistan to become anything resembling a civilized nation, it must change from the top. The Band-Aid solutions are not the long-term solutions. The entire political structure needs to be changed, assuring that those in power are held accountable for their actions affecting the country. A system of checks and balances needs to be in place.

The unfortunate thing about me discussing solutions to Pakistan`s problems is that I`m a tiger without teeth; an arm-chair analyst, as they say. My thoughts of doing away with the provincial borders and redrawing the lines along smaller districts in Pakistan is an idea that cannot be put in place without actions and concrete efforts, so is the idea of holding elections every three years (this is how it is done in Australia, I understand). To change a country like Pakistan from top down is a Herculean effort, to say the least. It cannot be done without politicians with vision and political will.

Anyway, I just wanted to put some ideas down and hope someone who can make a real difference will pick up on them, or have better ideas. The bottom line is that I`d love to see a Pakistan that is prosperous, tolerant and secure, where a good majority lives in peace and harmony and has only middle-class worries (middle-class, as we understand that term in the US). I always wonder if it can be done, and if I`d live long enough to see that.