A Visit to Pakistan

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Your description contradicts with what we see on television. Its a well known fact that one always tries to show its best side to a guest. You hardly mentioned anything about poverty in pakistan. This what was your main issue of going to pakistan I believe. If somebody pumps more than 30 billions to country of size of pakistan, its bound to reflect. You can guess what could have happened to UP if this was the case. You will find hardly any goods that are really produced in pakistan. They lived mainly on imports of large consumer goods. As far as income parity is concerned, A smaller country always has a advantage over a large one. Just compare switzerland with USA. Pakistan rules on better punjab land than India, still every year they resort of import wheat to feed their population. There are reasons to explain.

good luck

Re: Najib

1. I disagree that there is NO discrimination against Muslims in India. But that matters not one bit; how the Muslims are treated now is irrelevant, it matters how they felt and were treated (especially by the Congress) in the Pre-partition days. Pakistan`s ideology is very much tied to history.

2. As for seeking majority consent before partition, that is not only impractical but absolutely stupid. For example, do you honestly believe it is wrong for the Kosovar Albanians to ask for partition simply because the majority Serbs are against it (Note: I am not comparing their situation with those of Muslims in pre-partition India, I`m putting your ``majority-consent before partition`` rule to the test)

3. There is something about your posts that leaves me a little perplexed. You are convinved that partition was wrong (you also use the word ``illegal``, according to what law?) and that in reality, all Pakistanis are Indians. However, your posts always make generalizations about Pakistanis that seem to indicate that you do view them as very different from Indians. Examples:

``If the Kashmir problem is solved, I`m sure the Pakis will find another reason to quarrel with us.`` Pakis this, Pakis that. You obviously view ``Pakis`` as distinct from Indians in your posts, but still insist that Pakistan is ``disputed territory``, and legally (once again how?) a province of India. Choose on or the other.

Finally, with respect to Kashmir if you aren`t even willing to acknowledge us a nation how do you think we will ever come to a resolution on Kashmir?

Faraz

This is in response to Faraz.

Dear Faraz, you counter my opinion (about how wrong and unacceptable partition was) by asking whether we should also consider Independence a `wrong` thing since it was negotiated by un-elected people.

Well, firstly, I am glad that I was able to bring to your notice that an important decision like partition of a country was wrongly thrust upon an unwilling majority.

Now, independence was different. Why? Well, it was a campaign run by every Indian from Karachi to Dhaka to Madras. On the other hand, the issue of partition was discussed/debated and negotiated only by a handful of people amongst themselves (the riots took place AFTER it was decided by the self-styled leaders that partition will happen; in fact the riots showed how a situation can go out of hand if something is thrust upon an unwilling population). The people of India had no say over the matter (partition). Apart from that, Independence was an act of undoing a wrong incidence--the colonization and exploitation of India. On the other hand, partition was an act of breaking up a country against the will of the majority of people, who generally are very emotional about `desh` and `sarzameen`. Moreover, partition was the result of personal differences and power-struggle between Nehru and Jinnah. Some Pakistanis justify partition by saying that the Hindus would have suppressed them if they hadn`t broken away. What about the time when a Muslim minority (Islamic invaders from Central Asia) ruled over India (mostly non Muslims) for centuries? As you can see, even today a large number of Muslims (like me) live in India and are in no way oppressed. Indeed, in keeping with democratic values, the majority rules. At the same time, India`s secular constitution gives everyone equal opportunity, and most Indians firmly believe in secularism (except a handful of fanatics; there are more fanatics in Pakistan today).

Re: Najib the Ajib

``Indeed, they know that the British or Congress and Muslim League leaders were NOT democratically elected representatives of the Indian people, and therefore had no right to make decisions that affected the lives of the Indian masses so severely``

Was Independence itself illegal and wrong, after all it was negotiated by people who weren`t democratically elected?

Also, yaar ``undoing`` partition...fXXX why don`t we go back to the Raj while we`re at it?

There is nothing very special or outstanding about Mr Vyasulu`s article. He is one of those people who think that the enemy can be be-friended by being good to him. So, he talks of how wonderful the Pakis are and how amazing everything is over there, without going deep into underlying facts.

For example, at one place Mr Vyasulu says that he was dazed by the flashy cars in Islamabad. Well, those were imported cars. We Indians make our own cars and are self-sufficient in almost all other fields too. That is why the recent sanctions (after nuclear tests) had no effect on us, while it sent Pakistan into near bankruptcy.

Mr Vyasulu also talks about a feeling that most Pakistanis have (according to him). He says that Pakistanis hate India because they think that we do not accept them as a country. Well, the fact is something else. The Pakistanis KNOW that partition was illegitimate and wrong. Indeed, they know that the British or Congress and Muslim League leaders were NOT democratically elected representatives of the Indian people, and therefore had no right to make decisions that affected the lives of the Indian masses so severely. A matter as important as partition of a country should have been decided through a referendum (of course, if a referendum had been conducted, a majority of Indians would have rejected partition). It is this knowledge that worries the Pakis. Pakistan itself could be regarded as a disputed territory. That of course means that we should be talking about undoing partition, NOT about ownership of Kashmir!

Finally, I would like to add that Mr Vyasulu apparently tried to be Mr Sugar-coated Nice-man during his visit to Pakistan. He often appeared to be sympathetic to the most ridiculous Paki viewpoints, instead of standing up for his own country`s viewpoints or position. He failed to be an effective ambassador of his country and people.

Vinod,

It is my observation that the few Indians and Pakistanis who get a chance to visit the other country always come back with positive memories. I’ve seen this over and over again. My own visit to Bharat was memorable and I came out much more impressed than I’d expected. I remember vivid images of some of the highlights.

Getting the visa was an interesting experience. I’d failed to get it from the US where it’s a relatively painless process. In Islamabad, it was quite an ordeal. The embessy guys were okay, but it was the Pakistani security outside that was a real pain.

Delhi airport was a total shock for which I was not prepared. This was 1992, when Pakistani airports still didn’t have jet ways and one walked on the tarmac and got in a bus to get inside the terminal. So the modern facility at Delhi was impressive. Our local hosts told us that it was the exception not the rule, so we shouldn’t be too impressed. The customs procedure, however, was slow and frustrating. We were later told that the bureaucracy was worse than it’s counterpart in Pakistan. Now that was really hard to imagine.

The taxis and cars in general were abysmal. They were rickety, smoky and under powered. The traffic was as bad as, if not actually more dangerous than (and that is hard to achieve), the traffic in Pakistan. The hotel Maurya was breath taking. No Pakistani hotel, at the time, even came close. New Delhi was very grand and impresive looking because of all the grand style colonial buildings, but old Delhi was worse than Lahore in its squalor. Mirza Ghalib’s grave was in a sadly neglected state. The general irreverence of people towards the historical treasures was disconcerting, though understandable. Its was no different than it is in Pakistan. The openness of atmosphere was refreshing, though our local hosts failed to see it that way.

The trees full of monkeys in rural areas of Rajistan near Jaipur was quite a surprise. I thought the arboreal creatures had been wiped out and that now they were only left in the Himalayan foothills. The very low prices of food and medicine in smaller towns that we plodded through was almost unbelievable. But we realized that the local income made even those prices exorbitant.

The single most memorable thing I saw was the discipline and docility of the people. There was a political procession of some sort in Jaipur. I don’t know what the issues were, as we were mere transients, but the impressive things was the orderliness of the crowd. People had banners in their hands and were marching in protest, shouting slogans. The police were all around in large numbers. This was a common sight for anyone coming from Pakistan, however, the similarity ended there. Unlike the crowds I grew up watching in Pakistan, this crowd was very well behaved. The burned someone’s effigy and shouted very spirited slogans. However, they did not block traffic nor loot shops nor damage public property. This observation left me astonished and I was most impressed. Back in Delhi our local friends tried to down play it and dismissed it, but I persisted in the opinion that no crowd in Pakistan was ever this ‘mature’. I am still impressed.

In the end, I think, it is really more a case of the grass being greener on the other side. Objectively, the differences between our peoples (I don’t say ‘our two’ people – because each side has many ‘peoples’) is rather trivial. When we go across the border it is usually for a very brief time and we are usually expecting the worst, so even ordinary things impress us. At least that is what happened to me.

I think that both countries are like copies of the same picture except that India is in technicolour and Pakistan is in Black & White.

…SR

Re: sharayar #: 11

`` ....well I earnestly belive that though some of us may look same and may have some roots that intermingle somewhere back in the time line, WE ARE DIFFERENT....and nothing can change...``

Since you agree that minor physical differences are inconsequential, how exactly are we different ? Are you more happy, less greedy, less worried about the future of your children, not afraid of death, not bothered about financial security, not jealous of your neighbours, more tolerant of critisism.

Don`t you enjoy the brief moments of silence, occasional fleeting joys. Don`t you smile at a joke.

Does suffering not bring tears to your eyes and a prayer to God.

One can go on ...

The differences which you think are DIFFERENCES, are the most superfical, silly ones. All human beings are psychological photocopies.

You`ve probably never had a hindu/sikh/christian friend or neighbour - like most Pakistanis.

You have picked up these ``DIFFERENCES`` from newspapers, magazines, movies and from the house of your God.

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Re: Sharayar

Sir/Madam, What in God`s name are you trying to say. Your message is in poor English and completely unintelligible. Please proof read before submitting messages.

Hi Vinod,

``...And many of the men were in traditional costume-the shalwar/kameez``.

It is heartening to see that the Pakistan Army is adopting these traditional ways - they are wearing shalwar/kameez and track suits in Kargil.

I guess the track suit is useful when the Indian Army is near and its time to run.

....well I earnestly belive that though some of us may look same and may have some roots that intermingle somewhere back in the time line, WE ARE DIFFERENT....and nothing can change...even though we may get flooded by the waves of Zee and Mtv waves.....and that is inevitable...

Kashmir is stingy alright..but I guess those who have benefitted the most have been the armies of respective countries and kashmiries themselves,atleast Pakistani kashmiris are very well off....as far as masses are concerned...it doesnt matter who they are,they suffer and that is inevitable too...

and its a fact that no matter how much beautiful prose we use and how eloquently and euphemistically we put things...the divide will be there,the chasm will remain...inevitable....all that is needed is acceptance!

TAhmed321 wrote, ``I think you should know that porters in Lahore and Islamabad

airports (perhaps Karachi too) get paid in any case by the airport authorities so what that gentleman walked away from was

just the tip that the porters normally expect.``.

Mr. T , That was a stingy remark to say the least. I am sure you are one of those passengers who fight with those poor porters for a couple of rupees. And also, they are not paid by the authorities. They actually have to pay them (Rishwat) to get a Qullee Tag!.

Impressive article! Very objective and definitely very informative.

I recently returned to Karachi after many years and was quite surprised by the tremendous improvement in the infrastructure of the city. The trip was preceded by a trip to Delhi, where my father`s side of the family resides , and in comparison to Delhi`s infrastructure, Karachi`s was much more developed. This didn`t make much logical sense to me since economically India seems to be far more progressed (opening of markets to foreign investors) than Pakistan and yet I saw a vast discrepancy in the development of the cities. However, your article answered that question for me - for in addition to the Gulf bringing in money there was much money being pumped in due to the Cold War. Makes Sense!

Is there any validity to the statement that illegal money from drugs also represents a substantial part of the Pakistani economy?

Also as one of the other readers suggested I would be very interested in learning more about this agency - ActionAid? What is its function and how long has it been around for? Are there other agencies such as this?

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Sadaf, may I also point out that many Indian Muslims stayed behind because of choice. The absence of that reason for why there are more Muslims in India than Hindus in Pakistan, irked me a bit, I suppose.