India’s Failure of Imagination

Ref OMAR1974.

A simple question.

There are Sikhs, Hindus and Buddhists in Kashmir. Are they not Kashmiris? What will be the fate of these people when Kashmir joins Pakistan?

So, you think that `Pakistan lost` the Kargil Crisis, and `India Won`. Well, from a strategic point of view Pakistan has already won. The cost of India mainting 10,000 troops year round in Kargil, Drass, Batalik is reported by Indian newspapers to be 100 million rupees (more than $2 million daily added to Indian army cost of operations alone). Siachin costs India and Pakistan $1 million and $700,000 daily. It also costs the Indian army hundreds more dead due to the climactic conditions alone, which are not better in Kargil-Drass-Batalik. So, India has now been forced to spend $2m/day ($730 million annually) extra in its desperate bid to continue its illegal occupation of Kashmir and its resulting confrontation with Pakistan. This is a victory for India, of pyhrric proportions. Pakistan`s total cost for this operation $5-10 million and perhaps 500+ dead. India`s cost of eviction was over $200 million. As I said earlier, Pakistan will bleed India white to the bone. Over a decade that is an additional $7 billion! To put things into perspective, the 300 T-90 Tanks India is acquiring from Russia cost is $750m USD. Resources are not unlimited. Poverty striken India cannot afford this, as sane Indians will privately admit. This is a disaster for India. After having lost a few hundred troops, defending worthless territory has become a national point of honor for them. This is excellent. Pakistan has succeeded in its strategic aims w/o increasing its own costs.

Omar

If the British could leave Hong Kong, the French could be driven out of Algeria and Vietnam, the Israelis forced to negotiate with the Palestinians because of the intifada, the Serbs driven from Kosovo (their spiritual heartland), the U.S driven out of Vietnam, the Russians driven out of Aghanistan (the costs of which contributed to the collape of the USSR), and the IRA/Sein Fein and the British, Irish and N.Ireland gov (and basically all Catholic and Protestant groups) could agree to a cease fire and a political peace process, and Pakistan could be driven out East Pakistan, then what is India in the face of the resistence of the people of Kashmir and Pakistan? Its very simple, when the costs escalate, India will be forced to negotiate. Clearly, we have not yet reached the point where costs become intolerable and unsustainable for India. A nuclear war may be required. But whatever it takes, no matter how many people have to die (we really DON`T give a damn), we will prevail in the end, because right is on our side, as are principles. Have no doubts. The basic fact is that the Kashmiris don`t want to be part of India, and do what India may, it cannot change their national/ethnic/ religious sense of identity which is entirely alienated from Indian citizenship. This is a simple fact. Sooner or later India must come to terms with it. Controlling a hostile local population that actively supports action against the state is not a viable strategy in the long term for India. This is a basic fact. It is upto Pakistan and Pakistanis to insure the cost of India`s theft increases daily.

I propose the elimination of all traitors, starting with the puppet Chief minister of IOK, F.Abdullah. His swift death at the hands of determined muslims even at the cost of their own lives (martyrs) will energize our struggle like nothing else. It will also be a warning to other collaborators (the few Kashmiri muslims/x-militants India has recruited)that their fate will be same as meted out to Palestinian collaborators. There is no place to hide any longer. The world IS a global village. We`re gonna get ya. You won`t get a moments peace. No one can protect ya. Hey, the Tamils got Rajiv Gandhi. The Sikhs got Indira Gandhi. The muslims R GONNA GET F. Abdullah. Better believe it. Its a matter of time. His days are numbered. Watch the news.

And as for those Indians that keep bringing up India`s remaining muslim `problem` of co-existence to try to confuse the Kashmiri issue, frankly, all we are interested in is Kashmir, not Hyderabad Daccan etc, those people opted to stay in India, they are cut out to make compromises for the sake of coexistence, they are Indian citizens by choice. I don`t see what that issue, a purely internal Indian affair, has anything to do with the illegal occupation of Kashmir by India, where elections are rigged and produce 5% turnouts and there is no political legitimacy whatsoever of the brazen Indian occupation. India`s domestic problems are its omestic problems. We don`t give a hoot about them. Kashmir is Internationally recognized disputed territory. There is a clear difference between muslims in Bombay, and muslims in the vale of Kashmir. Better understand it.

Omar

To those who are bent on obfuscating the real issue (which is basically very simple, a question of will alone) by focusing on fundamentalism in Pakistan, its internal problems, the `Paki-mindset` etc, I think you should, as diplomatic circles would phrase it, `stop interfering in Pakistan`s internal domestic affairs`. Quite frankly, whatever Pakistan`s internal problems, Pakistanis (Secular and Fundamentalists alike) are by and large united on the Kashmir issue. The issue is quite simple. India as a nation is as guilty as a common horse thief of theft and is a nation of mendacious horse thieves. Over the the past 50+ years they have proven their mendacity and duplicity. We will recover our property sooner or later. The tide is rising against Indian occupation of the valley. Look at the fayte of the U.S in S.Vietnam and the USSR in Afghanistan. Kashmir is India`s quagmire. Its continued occupation will destroy India. We, in Pakistan don`t give a damn about anything else when it comes to realtions with India. What we want is Kashmir. (Jammu and Ladhakh might be negotible in a final settlement). Whatever we choose to do with it, Kashmir is our business. INDIA GET OUT OF KASHMIR. This is now all that the process of dialogue should consist of. Lord knows India has heard us on this matter before. The question ladies and gentleman is only what punishment shall be meted out for this daily and continuing theft and rape of our lands and people. What will be the penalty we shall impose for this theft. We are not going to wait another 50 years, our patience is NOW at an end. We are quite prepared to pay any price necessary to insure that India returns (voluntarily or otherwise) Kashmir to Pakistan, its lawful sovereign. We don`t want to hear anything further on the matter. Discussion closed. The ends justify whatever means are used to attain our goals. The only language that needs to be spoken from now on is one of bullets, bombs, shells exploding, and the roar of artillery. Pagan-heathen savages must be dealt with firmly. We have been far too lenient with them thus far.

If there are concrete peaceful steps Pakistan should take immediate they are the following:

1) Hold an immediate plebescite under U.N supervision in accordance with U.N Resolutions, in Azad Kashmir, and withdraw the Pakistan Army from Kashmir entirely during the process. After Pakistan has done this, the onus will be on India to comply as well. International pressure will mount on India to follow suit. After such a long time, this would be a bold diplomatic masterstroke of utter genius on the part of Pakistan. The shoe would then be on the other foot. India`s utter moral bankruptcy would stand is sharp contrast to Pakistan`s adherence to the will of the international community.

2) Following the Plebescite, declare all Kashmiris Pakistani citizens, including those in Indian occupied Kashmir (like West Germany dealt with the East Germans prior to 1989 and Germans today worldwide, and like Israel treats Jews worldwide today), with right of automatic residence in Pakistan plus Pakistani passports.

Omar

Re:OMAR1974

I am not a military expert but wrote that the Kargil mission or war put Pakistan about $5 million more in debt and India had to bear $something millions on its part.

I just wonder how can this be justified when there are many who want to study and cannot get admission because there arn`t many shchools which can accomodate the increasing number of students both in India and Pakistan???

Can someone answer:

Do we really need Agnis and Ghauris or NEDs and IITs??

regards

FT

Re: Najib

At many places in this forum, you have written that the creation of Pakistan was ``wrong`` and ``illegal``.

If that is the case, then my friend all of India should be ruled by muslims just like the way it was ruled before the British came to India.

On the other hand, the Pakistanis should ask for all of the land(India)that they, muslims, ruled before the British came to India. So the Pakistanis should not only be asking for Kashmir, but also for West Bengal, Assam, Hyberabad Deccan and all the other territories and states ``illegally`` occupied by the ``worst`` democracy in the world, India, which can ban news on tv and newspapers which show more facts than fiction about Kashmir and India as a whole.

The influential Washington Post in an editorial captioned `Cooling Kashmir` on Thursday said that `India`s denial of the democratic benefit in Kashmir is what the dispute remains basically about. An initiative along this line would earn India rich tribute.`

Rohan I must congratulate you on being one of the few Indians who has somehow, (perhaps it was an accident of birth?) learned to speak w/o a forked tongue. It seems most of your countrymen are born with forked tongues.

Kargil cost India over $200 million, and at least 3 military aircraft (a couple more not publically admitted probables) and appx at a minimum 500 dead plus untold numbers of wounded. Pakistan`s cost? About $5 million. I like that rate of exchange, lets see if India can keep up at this ratio, and for how long. Well, they`re used to grinding poverty anyhow, better stay used to it! This is just the begining, now that Pakistan and India are BOTH nuclear powers this sort of thing can be allowed to increase exponentially if one is prepared to play the game. All the extra patrols, winter stay etc will add hundreds of millions annually to Indian expenditure, reducing money for acquisitions of equipment, like Siachin has for Pakistan. If Pakistan can increase the costs of occupation/confrontation for India with minimal investment (say $30 million a year on keeping Indian occupied Kashmir boiling over the next decade, Pakistan can literally drain India dry to the bone). I`d say the operation was a success. Its cost Pakistan very little, and just over 1000 men were able to face off the entire Indian army and Airforce`s combined attacks. So what if India `won,` lets look at what it cost and what it was fighting anyhow! Only a thousand men were able to demonstrate its military weaknessess and unpreparedness. Well, until the next round and so on until Indians realize they have to GET OUT OF KASHMIR! Let Kashmir become India`s Vietnam and Afghanistan rolled into one. India can`t win. Even when India `wins` , it loses, because it lost the most battle of them all; for the hearts and minds of Kashmiris long ago. India is no better than a colonial power in occupation by force of Kashmir.

Omar

Re: Najib #38

Najib Sahib,

I fully endorse your views and I am proud that India is producing people with your mindset and attitude. However, I think that we do need to focus our attention on the overall hindu-muslim equation in the subcontinent. The creation of Pakistan, the conflicts, Kashmir etc. are all a symptom of the underlying problem i.e. the lack of good relations between hindus and muslims. While we have coexisted for a thousand years, we have never made an effort to bridge our gaps and develop strong friendly relations. During muslim rule, some efforts were made via the Sufi movement but they were never followed up.

The good news is that as Indian secularism develops and the economy grows, hindus and muslims are getting along better. The recent Kargil affair has shown that muslims were strongly supportive of India and they were even celebrating Pakistan`s defeat in the world cup. This is the right time to cash in on these sentiments. I feel that we should have a complete reconciliation, at least in India between hindus and muslims. Our religious leaders should get together and develop a common code of coduct towards each other. We should bury our differences for ever. If we set an example, Kashmir and Pakistan will turn around on their own.

Looks like the conflict is winding down . . . thank God.

Better to solve differences like rational adults, by negotiating rather than fighting.

Look, even the Israelis and Palestinians are well on the way to working things out peacefully. India and Pakistan should be able to deal with each other. The hotheads need to cool down.

I would love to see Muslims in Kashmir get justice and the right of self-determination -- but it would be horrible to see Taliban conquer Kashmir and treat its women the way they`ve treated Afghan women. That would be sickening. The native Kashmiri Muslim culture is nothing like the Taliban`s brutal extremism. Just pause for a moment and think calmly about it. Even the status quo would be preferable to being taken over by Taliban. If their harsh coercion was to rule Kashmir, that would hardly be ``self-determination`` of Kashmiri people. It would be severe oppression of them worse than ever before.

na`udhu billah

A very flawed article. The very basic assumption made by Rohan is wrong. He says that if Kashmir problem is resolved, all will be well and Indians and the Pakistanis will live happily ever after. Nonsense! What he fails to understand is this: Pakistan was created (out of India) on the belief (on part of the Pakistanis) that we cannot live together peacefully or happily.

So, you see, the very reason for Pakistan`s existence as a nation will be questioned if India and Pakistan become `friends`. If the Kashmir problem is solved, I`m sure the Pakis will find another reason to quarrel with us.

Another point I wish to make is that Rohan, you have said ``...Indian soldiers are being killed like`dogs`..``. It appears you are a communist. In any case, you are full of sh..t! What kind of an Indian are you? In fact, you are not even a human being! It is due to people like you that India remained under foreign rule for centuries. If you wanted to refer to our martyrs (my salute to them), then you could simply have said they are dying (instead of using profanities). YOU ARE SICK.

By the way, India has always had a moral stand on the issue of Kashmir. The creation of Pakistan and the Pakis` demand of our state of Kashmir is based on their thinking that people of diverse backgrounds and religion cannot and must not live together. I refuse to buy that argument. BOTH the creation of Pakistan and Pakistan`s claim over our territory are wrong and unacceptable to me.

Re: Ferozk Reply #: 36

Did`nt keep a copy. Nothing very important.

Thanks anyway.

Re: anarayan

Please re-submit your comments. Chowk was having technical problems, and it seems your comments did not get posted.

This is a test

Re: anarayan

Seems your interact was cut in mid-sentence. Same thing happened to me. I will wait for a complete answer.

Re: Ferozk #: 33

Feroz,

You misunderstood my earlier mail. Let me explain.

When I talked about PAF support for the pakistani soldiers, I was`nt implying ground support