Loyal to Pakistan? Why?

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Studebaker:

You are now criticizing India to increase awareness of people about minority problems - this is the action of a patriotic Indian. Anybody who criticizes with the idea of helping India improve is a true Indian. More than a person who keeps quiet and allows people to trample the rights of others. Like a mother who scolds her son to make sure he learns some lessons for the future, you should keep scolding India. Do it out of love and even out of anger but dont do it out of hate.

Re: STudebaker

This kind of reasoning,,, i understand and even appreciate......

Iconoclast

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The following is reproduced for greater circulation:



The News

Tuesday, July 20, 1999

Rabi-us-Sani 06, 1420 A.H.

Evenings in Dhaka

Anees Jillani

I had always wanted to visit East Pakistan. There was a time at school when I was even learning Bengali but the whole programme got scrapped

after General Niazi surrendered on December 16, 1971. I remember my father weeping after hearing of the surrender on the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC); Radio Pakistan till then was still working on the hypothesis that the Indian forces were on the verge of surrendering in Calcutta.

My father for a while, like many other Pakistanis, went through a metamorphosis: he switched from Gold Leaf to K2; began wearing khaddar and started a regular programme on television trying to raise people`s spirits. However, things soon returned to their old pattern and life was back to normal.

I was, therefore, excited when India`s General Meneakshaw`s daughter, Maja, invited me, along with some other very distinguished Pakistani

friends, to attend a meeting in Dhaka. I was surprised to find out that one needed a visa for going to our former wing but a friend in the

Bangladesh High Commission issued the visa in record time and free of charge. Then came my Biman flight from Karachi to Dhaka. I unfortunately chose a smoking seat and so ended up sleeping at the end. It was literally sitting in an inter-city bus in Bangladesh with passengers fighting with the stewardesses and water being served in a

strange looking jug. I am unsure till now if the water was filtered.

However, the first shock I got after landing was to find out that the Bangladeshi taka was stronger than our rupee: there are 48 takas to a dollar as opposed to 53 rupees in case of Pakistan. I had always assumed that Bangladesh would be an extremely congested and poor place. But as one of my teachers had once said that one should never assume because the break up of the word is `ass-u-me`.

Dhaka is Bangladesh`s biggest city with a population of around ten million. The only thing which strikes a visitor is the phenomenal number of cycle rickshaws. I was told that there are more than one million in Dhaka alone. As a result, the Dhaka population refuses to walk and prefers to use this mode of transportation even for short

distances. And the traffic, as a result, is totally chaotic. It moves at a snail`s pace following the pedalled rickshaws.

However, the economy is moving at a better pace. Bangladesh`s foreign exchange reserves at around two billion dollars are double those of Pakistan and its population growth rate stands at 1.73 per cent as opposed to 2.7 per cent in the case of Pakistan. Its literacy rate is 52 per cent while ours is only known to our able education minister but is probably somewhere in the thirties. About 97 per cent of the people have access to safe drinking water while only 79 per cent have this

facility in Pakistan. So, is Bangladesh better off being independent?

There are no two opinions about this in the country. I was in Dhaka for only three days as the fourth day was taken care of by a nationwide

strike called by the former Premier Khaleda Zia. However, I found time during those three days to visit Saddarghat in old Dhaka where you can

see the river and the famous ferryboats constantly docking and leaving for other cities. Ferryboats are a popular and cheap mode of transportation and one can only find out the extent of the calamity

after looking at their size if any of them sinks. I was taking photographs at the dock surrounded by a small crowd which, of course, one should get used to in South Asia when suddenly a 40-plus person asked me where I was from. Upon hearing the magic word Pakistan, he instantly shouted at the peak of his voice that ZA Bhutto was corrupt and that he had destroyed the country. I kept quiet but he continued shouting and insisted upon telling me that he was a freedom fighter and

what atrocities my country`s military had committed in East Pakistan. I was in Saddarghat with an Indian who had just returned to India after finishing his PhD from Harvard. Frankly, I was totally relaxed despite the belligerent attitude of the fellow because I always felt at home in Dhaka but my Indian friend, Vikram, was getting nervous with the swelling crowd. In order to ease Vikram`s fears, since he was lecturing

both of us, I told the fellow that this guy is not from Pakistan but from Delhi and that he helped you with your liberation. The fellow, who found time at the end of his shouting spree to inform us that he was now a banker, however, was undeterred and kept yelling at Vikram while I took photographs.

Vikram was not amused. He took a boat ride while I just walked on the dock. Another person asked me where I was from and upon my telling him Islamabad, he nostalgically told me that he had served with the Pakistan military in Kharian and Jhelum cantonments. Another crowd gathered and now people wanted to discuss Kargil and Kashmir. By that time, Vikram had returned and I jokingly told them that he is the bad guy who has taken away Kashmir from us. Upon hearing that he was from

India, one of the guys swayed his hand in front of his neck gesturing the chopping of one`s neck and uttered the word India. Vikram was now really nervous and rushed out asking me why were they anti-India when ``we had helped them`` with their liberation?

Bengal has always been a politically volatile region and the present Bangladesh society is no exception. The whole nation appears to be

polarised between pro-India and pro-Pakistan factions. Wherever I went, people sympathised with me for Pakistan losing the final of the World

Cup 1999. Some even stoned vehicles after the defeat. As opposed to them, there are others like the banker we met who are extremely bitter

about the brutalities committed by Pakistanis.

I spent the evenings at the Dhaka Club where the locals reminisced for hours about the inhuman acts committed by the Pakistanis from March to December 1971. People are still pained by those memories and I was at a loss to explain that how could we have killed tens of thousands of our own countrymen and yet not bothered to hold a single person accountable for those actions.

I also visited the Muktijuddha Jadughar Liberation Museum which is a private museum containing artifacts relating to the liberation struggle. One thing that instantly struck me was the fact that their heroes are our villains. They have pictures of their brave freedom fighters who killed some government official or a prominent politician

when we still hold the latter in greater esteem. Bangladesh traces its liberation struggle to Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah`s speech in

East Pakistan where he declared Urdu to be the sole and exclusive language of Pakistan. This policy eventually led to the Language Movement of 1952 in which several Bengalis were killed and which agitation is now commemorated by a memorial in Dhaka.

East Pakistan is now history and the mistakes we committed there cannot be undone. What struck me while visiting the liberation sites of Bangladesh was the irony that we still are making exactly the same miscalculations and our attitude and approach towards several of our ethnic communities is no different. It is still not too late in the day

to stop and act with a more open and positive attitude. And one of the steps that we could undertake not to repeat the past blunders is to

make the Hamoodur Rehman Commission Report public and hold the people who led to Pakistan`s dismemberment accountable.

Studebaker:

Your attempt to distinguish yourself from Ahmed was a complete flop. He was not rejecting himself, he was rejecting Pakistan which is something distinct from his own self. Similarly, you were rejecting India which is something distinct from your own self. So on that score there is no difference between the two of you. But let me address some serious points you have raised.

You then made a point that you faced annhilation while he did not. It is apparent that you FEEL that you faced annihilation and it is also clear that Ahmed did not FEEL that he faced annihilation. So in this regard there is a difference between the two of you.

For a country to be true to its citizens: it must do two things - i) it must provide security to the extent that ii) its citizens FEEL secure. I am sorry that India made you feel so insecure. Ultimately, India will be judged on the feeling of security that its citizens feel. If yours is an isolated case of insecurity, then it is your problem and not India`s. If there is a widespread feeling of insecurity, that is India`s failing. If I, as an individual, can do or say anything to change that insecure feeling you have, I would be happy to do so.

You say that in your mind you still like India - you hate its fanaticism, communalism etc. I agree with that sentiment. Stick with India and together we will make it better.

Re: Studebaker

``Iconoclast,i think i have read enough of your arguments to put Advani.MML Joshi,Balraj Madok,to shame.``

-- Please do me a favor and don`t associate me with these maniacs..

`` I never looked for sympathy not even your ``SECULAR`` system to protect me or provide.I am a survivor but that DOESNT make me insensitive to thousands of Indian muslims who are weak & weakened daily by a HOSTILE environment.

``

-- good for u... the fact is that all Indians have to be survivors irrespective of their religion.

`` Have you any idea about Bhagalpur,Meerut,recently & Jamshedpur,Calcutta,Rourkela,Sitamarhi,Jabbalpur

Aligarh,& many in small towns. ``

-- yes i do.. I am also aware of Hyderabad, coimbatore, Malappura, Ahmedabad, Bombay etc ., where we are the ones to be blamed.

`` The govt always minmises the figures for obvious reason. ``

-- We have an independant (actually minority favoring press) and they have always given a fair count..

``I dont know where you saw a riot where Hindus died leave alone in equal number?I dont want a single hindu to die,just make the police minority directed You can call the army if you dont trust the muslims in police force.

``

-- ever heard of coimbatore for a recent case...

``As for majority of Muslim lower middle class why should they have to leave.``

-- no we should not leave. rather we should put our heart and soul here and make this place better for us. Some of us have done just that and succeeded. But some other of us, have put their heart in Pakistan like u have done. but then, its ur choice.

`` Your Patel never laid that condition to Mt. Batten,whom he promised to give the british employees from the Indian coffer.While thousand died in famine in Bengal & Bihar.!

``

-- patel can rot in hell, for all i care.

`` As i said no body drove me out but the attitude that a middle class muslim in northern India would face in colleges,work place or neighbourhood JUST ISNT WORTH IT!``

-- u still are unable to give concrete evidence. Lately the situation is getting communalised thanks to the RSS and some muslims like u.....

``i can help them x45 or more as things are going with rupee devaluation,``

-- what do u think i do,,, or all the other hindus in America do... just what u do my friend. nothing special about u here.

``Again i am an exception who god blessed to succeed despite the unthinkable hurdles.``

-- good for u

``I would not apologize to India for iam not selfish,I support my relatives there,if millions of my inferior & junior Hindus can have best of both world why shouldnt a Muslim boy,try stopping me you wont be the first one.``

-- have u gone loco. what does the above para mean. why should i stop u. why should anyone stop u. U probably should be thankful to India for having provided u with this opportunity...even though u worked hard for it,.,.just like anyone else in India... nothing is handed in a platter to Indians unless they are rich (and religion does not matter a bit) ..actually the brahmins are the ones who are actually underprivileged. what with all these quota system and all. Not us or the other backward class hindus.

``I am not traitor but a FATAH,survivor and one day India has to apologize ``

-- yes, India has to apologize for Babri masjid, and little else. It is turncoats like u who have to think hard before u decided where to lay your hearts.

Iconoclast

omar1974: have ye left shakespeare in favor of the germans? no more tirades on the latest topic laced with shakespeare shamelessly and at times incorrectly laced in? it will be our loss.

(do not take that as encouragement of any sort to start on that tip again..please)

come butt heads with me again...or have you found bigger game?

abolutions, rituals and somthing else,

z. rizvi

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Re:

So poor Studebaker was persecuted in India because he was a Muslim and hence he fled that goddamn country . And we have a glee-ful Omar with his Taliban tendencies giving Studebaker a cheerup and empathises with him. Ok,,, so all is well with this picture.

Let me tell u this. Like all minorities i would defenitely like to live in a country where people i am most similar with (religion, culture, language) are a majority. Some kind of feeling secure i`d say. Given that, yes, i would love to live in a Tamil, Muslim yet modern, Secular country...something like Jinnah`s vision for Pakistan. But then on the other hand , when i look at it rationally, i am also sure that i would prefer to live as a minority in a economically better country which is secular and protects me and my identity rather than stay in the aforesaid fictitious nation . A reason as to why the Omar wannabes are in the USA.

Going back to India,, if we suppose that religious persecution is really a problem, then why are the christians in India not complaining as much as some of the Muslims do,,,or why are the Sikhs or the Jains or the Parsis complaining . ? Is it because they don`t have a christian, sikh , jain , parsi renegade, terrorist state speaking out for them shedding crocodile tears. ? India has its share of problems. But the Majority of Indians want to remain secular , want to remove religion from politics and education and economy.

If only India was truly a fascist nation where the Hindu majority was terrorising the minority (christian, Muslim, sikh, etc) as in Pakistan , then pray tell me, moronic dumbheads, why are many of the same minority who are sufficiently well off and could afford to lead an economically good life abroad , choose to stay back in India. As an example, Wasim Akram does not want to go back to pakistan after he lost the world cup and stayed back in England. But Azharuddin goes back to India after he loses . The indian filmworld, jewellery business, leather exports , granite exports and more such industries are dominated by Muslims ... these muslims can well afford an american education and a job abroad and a green card. if India was that despicable these guys would have packed their bags years ago... whya re they staying back and prospering. They stay back because they know that religion and economics are divergent in India. They know the true cause s of religious riots in India and they know how to keep themselves safe.

An aside, in all religious riots in India, equal number of Hindus and Muslims die. How is that possible , if the state has a hand in it ?

I am not going to trumpet any more about secularism. Because mullah clad morons, and mullah wannabes would not understand that. Pakistan was created for these people. So Studebaker,, India is bad for you...go to pakistan. Once we cleanse our country of your types and then the Shiv Sena types we can live better

Iconoclast

Studebaker : I`d ignore Icon`s comments as being in any way `representative` of Indian muslims daily realities. To my knowledge most of them don`t have close Hindu family relatives unlike Icon, and thus lead both a sheltered existence and are afflicted by a life of blindness towards the way India really treats its muslims (forgive me my negative presumption). I`m sorry Icon, in this matter i truly don`t (for once you may think) mean any disrespect towards you, but your continual attempt to represent your version of Indian muslims`s plight as the only `correct` version smacks of RAW propaganda. Now that Studebaker reveals his experiences in India, suddenly you say his are an exception (how convenient), and project him as an outcast. How easy for you to do this to your countryman, rather than listening to the whys of his problems/personal experiences in India. Studebaker, i`d be more than happy to LISTEN to WHY AND HOW YOU PERSONALLY came to this opinion. Tell us your PERSONAL experiences that lead you to make such generalized statements please.

sincerely,

Omar

Re: Studebaker

OK.. even giving u the benefit of doubt...that u did face annhilation in India,,, and u hate India because of that what is ur point. ? Go get a Paki citizenship , if that is all that u want ..We Indians don`t care a damn about a renegade Indian Muslim/Hindu/whatever. And if u want to make the world believe that Muslims are the sufferers , and that the secularism in India is not real...then you are just one of those pakis crying that the kargil infiltrators were not their soldiers. The world is not a dumb place today. People know what is happening at any given place. And the world has acknowledged that while Pakistan is a fundamentalist , islamic country, India is a multi-religious, secular nation. For every muslim like u, there are scores of Muslims , rich and poor who have loved India and still love the place as much if not more than even a Hindu does. I am not going to waste time quoting Muslim`s statistics. If any Muslim feels uncomfortable living in India ,,, he or she has two options, make it comfortable by exercising their rights, or get the hell out. I chose the former,,, u the latter. it is only a matter of choice. I am happy with mine,,,, if u are too... then there is no issue here

Iconoclast.

The Country`s a SCREW UP--ADMIT IT AND LEAVE IT.

Unfortunately, your arguments have long been heard and talked about by millions. Everyone admits the country is a screw up and I don`t think anyone gives a damn any more. Quit bitching about the country, leave it the way it is, lead your life in the US, enjoy, party and move on. Pakistan is Pakistan, it ain`t ever changing. You know Desis are very emotional people and can`t take criticism very well. This topic has been beaten to death--give it a rest and write about something that you can change ok.

Your obersvations are all true-unfortunately, I think it`s all genetics, and that ain`t changing. Maybe we should give Pakistan to the Jews and have them fix it up right? Yeah baby, yeah----Jewadellic!!!

Down and Dirty in NYC

FOZ

OMAR1974

Re: My Bill

Shall I just forward it c/o Fataquie? Afterall, he does claim to know where u live! :)

You know the problem of Paki-land is also how we all just simply CAN`T understand why Paki-land isin`t

EVERYBODY`s favorite vacation spot. Boggles the mind. Lets see now, official prohibition of alcohol, mind altering

drugs, gambling, bikini clad-or entirely unclad womyn frowned upon, many activist competing religious groups bent

upon spread of their version of the `true faith` and reconversion of muslims to Islam with patronage from the govt,

greedy customs officials looking for every opportunity to have their palms greased, heat, electricity blackouts during

summer, lack of entertainment, holier-than-thou attitude of the native populace, ethnic problems, sectarian violence,

political vendettas, gender discriminatory laws, pollution, flies, disgusting state of public health and schools (Including

public defacation), state controlled T.V, corruption at the highest levels and throughout the state bureauracy, to say

nothing of the lastest possibility of death by nuclear vaporization that one can add to the list which is by no means

complete. Yes, and its amazing just why its not everybody`s favorite vacation paradise now isin`t it! Can`t begin to

imagine why!

Let me add to that list,

No public bathrooms!.

Men can still get away with the number 1 (thanks to abundance of ``Teema`` (sand pebbles) but poor women!.

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Und Yet another perspective

My, My. A Paki who hates Paki-land! Good Lawrd! What is the world coming to! And he dares write such unmentionable filth about it too! The filthy country, filthy people, flthy corruption etc. For zis, ze firing squad alone will suffice! :)

Heil herr Musharraf, minister of propoganda und enlightenment, a beacon to us all (The truth is WHAT i say it is, WHEN i say it is). Adapted from Taming of the Shew. Cheers for Shakespearen plagiarism.

Now pardon me A.A, but (German accent with monacle in ze eye) your ancestors they came on the Mayflower wasn`t it? Aaah, no? Zen, ze Nina? Ze Pinta? Ze Santa Maria? No ...? oh, i see. So basically you travelled PIA quite often as a child. Now i understand where you get this complex. Undoubtly it has something to do with your childhood exposure to filthy illiterate old womyn who didn`t know how to use the toilets on board ze aircraft. Ah, yes, zis is now becoming a much clearer picture. So, you wanted to come to the land which invited you by saying, `give me your tired, your poor, your wretched, yearning to be free.` Ahhh. zis is excellent. Do u feel liberated from the stifling PIA flights experiences now that you finally have made it (here, and in life)? But it seems you have still not come to grips with ze childhood trauma that was inflicted on you by the people of zat ignorant land! Yeah, i forsee a large psychiatric bill in your future, it is fortunate you are gainfully employed. More sex, less Pakis. Get all ze Pakis out of your life immediately! BOYH! (Back to southern drawl, but this time wearing a

white sheet and carrying a burning cross onto your nicely manicured lush green lawn). Yeah, I`m talkin` to u boy! Where u from? Cambodia ? You git back there boy, if you kno whatz good fer yah.

Git boy!

Boy stammers: But, But, But, I never lived there.

KKK Clansman: You from there boy? You born therwe boy? I said GIT boy! GIT! you Gawd damn SOB, git! This my country boy! My land. You go back tah Paki-land, whereever the .uck yah come from you little chit! GIT!

Boy: But, this is the er land of er freedom er oppressed ... yearning to be free ... er

KKK: Git! (Continues Chewing Tabbaker)



maybe more later

Note: ALL my posts to be savoured in chronological order.

Re: My Bill

Shall I just forward it c/o Fataquie? Afterall, he does claim to know where u live! :)

You know the problem of Paki-land is also how we all just simply CAN`T understand why Paki-land isin`t EVERYBODY`s favorite vacation spot. Boggles the mind. Lets see now, official prohibition of alcohol, mind altering drugs, gambling, bikini clad-or entirely unclad womyn frowned upon, many activist competing religious groups bent upon spread of their version of the `true faith` and reconversion of muslims to Islam with patronage from the govt, greedy customs officials looking for every opportunity to have their palms greased, heat, electricity blackouts during summer, lack of entertainment, holier-than-thou attitude of the native populace, ethnic problems, sectarian violence, political vendettas, gender discriminatory laws, pollution, flies, disgusting state of public health and schools (Including public defacation), state controlled T.V, corruption at the highest levels and throughout the state bureauracy, to say nothing of the lastest possibility of death by nuclear vaporization that one can add to the list which is by no means complete. Yes, and its amazing just why its not everybody`s favorite vacation paradise now isin`t it! Can`t begin to imagine why!

On the other hand, most people have extended families and friends that have made it their abode and therefore like to visit them, plus the falsas (with mirch masala) and Mangoes are incomparable over there. So its a trade off buddy. Less freedom, more propaganda. You hear me boy? Kapish? Git? (picture Southern drawl with chewing tabbaker).:)

regards,

My dear fellow, A.A, its obvious you`ve got quite a complex as they say. Are you absolutely sure you`re getting laid often enough? I mean a lack of sex can really addle your head like nothing else if you`re forced to walk around with a hardon 24x7. Now it seems something in your life has you quite dissatisfied. Now i say this because essentially you`re not satisfied sitting on the beach, drinking in Pena Coladas and the view. You actually find time in your busy schedule away from merely enjoying such a marvellous life, to denigrate those who care about Pakistan! My Gawd, the complex runs deep. Now i suggest that while outwardly you feel content or feel you should anyhow, now that most of the goals you set yourself have been achieved in life, inwardly you`re not (satisfied), because obviously something is missing. And its gnawing away at you like anything. Pakistan isin`t biting you in the arse, you decided to bite it. The pieces of the puzzle of your perfect existence don`t quite fit. I reccomend adding a bit of hedonistic flavor to your life. Cheat a little on your live-in-lover. It`ll add so much to the relationship. Perhaps you can even arrange a menage or two! Who knows, life certainly has more to offer than spending your precious time criticizing ungrateful Pakis and THEIR nation. Indulge yourself! Don`t miss out

on all the good things the U.S has to offer, simply cause you got a Paki hangup! Get over it. Time is money. Youth is not meant to be wasted in reflections on dissatisfaction alone, at least if you`re a virile young man. So don`t be foolish, take heed, and find yerself a few more womyn (cure all)! :) Life`s short, so play rough. You`ll be much happier, i promise. It`ll take your mind off your identity crisis/problem ever so much! honest .... I mean i`m sure Billy boy wasn`t too worried about much else while Monica was going down on him! It`ll take your mind off your troubles, that, and a bottle of J.D. I`ll send you my bill. :)

Just read all the previous posts. Well, I agree that Pakis definitely have a habbit of imposing their views onto others and this is not a good thing even perfect strangers feel constrained to tell womyn not to wear T-Shirts. Frankly, whether the girl is wearing a T-Shirt or a bikini should not give the sabzimundi types the right to offer free advice. What Pakistan needs ... blah blah. Ok, Ahmed, so you wanna drink Pena Coladas, hang out on some beach with your `beautiful` fiancee, and and and ... tell us all how rotten Pakistan and Pakistanis are ... hmm, how interesting. Now aren`t you doing just the same thing you accuse other Pakis (oops)I mean people from THAT THERE COUNTRY of! Frankly if it were me on that beach, i`d be doing some bird-watching, not wondering how i could run Paki-land and Paki-people down! Everyone knows the cultural, Social and Economic mess Pakistan is in. SO??? Whats new?

That you don`t wanna be assciated with Pakistan? Are u telling me I had to read your article plus 134 odd replies just to get that? Thats your point! Listen up buddy, blue passport or not, home is where the heart is. Now you didn`t grow up in Pakistan so there is little attachment for the land in you. But i grew up there, and i have good childhood memories of the place, friends i have kept in touch with for life, growing up, a lot of good things. Sure there are things wrong with the place, i`m just about the #1 cynic when it comes to that, but its the place i was born, and spent half my life so, even if i change a passport, it doesn`t mean very much (oh yeah, besides escaping the drug searches:). Tariq did make 1 good point, even if you feel you don`t owe Paki-land anything, think again. Yeah, what was the economic condition of the muslims in British India? Before Pakistan was created muslims were at the bottom of the rung economically. Now look at Pakistan and India and compare the economic condition of muslims in so-called `Secular` India and `Fundamentalist` Pakistan. I can understand your resentment Ahmad at being given all this free, unwanted advice by Pakis on how to live your life, frankly I don`t need it either, but hey pal you can TUNE IT OUT and/or STOP ASSOCIATING WITH THOSE PEOPLE. Why spit out so much TRUTH with such VENOM??? Its not like we aren`t familiar with 99% of it already. So, the problem is not Pakistan (continuing the psycho-analysis) its actually you. You are the one having the problem-having-a-cow-cum-chit-fit. Pakistan seems to be (G-D alone knows how?) limping along, despite all its problems. You just wrote this to tell us VEHEMENTLY that `YOU DON`T WANNA LIVE THERE?` AND YOU DON`T WANNA PAKIS GIVING YOU ADVICE? C`mon, what do you think we are? Dumb? AFTER HAVING had to read all this, I feel entitled to voice my opinion. Kiddo, you need therapy. Best thing for you really because (and I really hate to break it to you like this) N.American society is never gonna accept you 100%, try what you may. So at least TRY to have some pride in the land of your birth, and your parents I assume? (Exchanging a passport doesn`t mean anything, its trying to erase an identity you feel stuck with that you are desperate to do) Guess what, you are stuck with it, with this identity, for life. Yup, its a life sentence, no clemancy. Pakistan; Land of fanatics, bearded fundos, terrorists, drug peddlars, crooks, hypocritical politicians etc. And you are going to be associated with it, like it or not by others including non-Pakis. Now once you can accept that, maybe you`ll stop hating Pakistan and realize that its not Pakistan or Pakis that are making your life miserable, it your own sense of unfulfillment, or wanting to belong. And in the U.S its gonna be very hard. This is a trade off some people make. Most try to preserve their identity though. But you`d like nothing better than to be done with it. People have already pointed out in detail that there is more to America than meets the media`s eye, no need to recount. Just be careful that you dont wake up one day with an empty space in your heart because you are neither East, nor West. Listen, when your kid comes home from Kindergarten and tells you a few things about what other kids called him/her, trust me, youre gonna remember that this kind of thing would never have happened in the land of your birth and that of your mommy and daddy, to your kid. And that is really what matters and what it comes down to when people talk about being a second class citizen in the States.

Someone who knows all about life in both East and West.

Good Luck resolving your identity crisis problem. Maybe all you really need is a hug from someone who truly loves you. Hope u get it soon.

regards,

Re: Unknown # 135

That was an interesting hymn from Rudyard Kipling, the most racist and imperialistic poet in the history of Britain`s imperium. This is the same gentlemen who wrote ``the white man`s burden`` and was a guest of honor at the dinner in 1907 celebrating the 50th anniversary of the Indian Mutiny of 1857, where he ``romantizied`` Britain`s butchery in the aftermath of the events of 1857.

I think, William Butler Yeats expressed the sentiments better, of what we feel about Pakistan, when he penned the following lines to a poem:

``those that I fight I do not hate
and those that I guard, I do not love.
My county is Kiltarten`s Cross
and my countrymen Kiltarten`s poor.....
Nor law nor duty bade me fight,
Nor public men or cheering crowds,
but a lonely impluse of delight
drove to this tumult.....
A waste of breath seems the years behind
and a waste of breath the years to come,
in balance with this life, this death.``

This poem, more than Kipling, captures my feelings about Pakistan.

re: Salman

I agree with you say, but in some cases it becomes necessary to tear something down only to re-assemble it again!

Pink Floyd......lost interest in PF after Roger Waters left! My fav PF album is the Final Cut, because of its imagery. Maybe, in the case of Pakistan, lets hope we do not ever see ``two sunsets in the mirror``. If I want to get sad thinking about Pakistan, nothing compares to Edith Piaff`s morbidity.

Also, Queen`s ``I am going slightly mad`` is a good commentary on Pakistan since the country seems to be always ``one brick short of a full load`` and seems to be running on ``...three wheels only..`` The theme from the movie Highlander, also by Queen, captures the mood in Pakistan well: ``who wants to live for ever?``

Ciao!

RE To ALL:

If you can keep your head when all about you

Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;

If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,

But make allowance for their doubting too;

If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,

Or, being lied about, don`t deal in lies,

Or, being hated, don`t give way to hating,

And yet don`t look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;

If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;

If you can meet with triumph and disaster

And treat those two imposters just the same;

If you can bear to hear the truth you`ve spoken

Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,

Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,

And stoop and build `em up with wornout tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings

And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,

And lose, and start again at your beginnings

And never breath a word about your loss;

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew

To serve your turn long after they are gone,

And so hold on when there is nothing in you

Except the Will which says to them: ``Hold on``;

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,

Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch;

If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;

If all men count with you, but none too much;

If you can fill the unforgiving minute

With sixty seconds` worth of distance run -

Yours is the Earth and everything that`s in it,

And - which is more - you`ll be a Man my son!

re:Ferozk #128

I totally agree with what u say. Criticism is very important becuase it shows often those aspects which one has ignored but there is a difference between healthy criticism and plain insult and degrading remarks, malignantly spitting venom .....and patriotism.....it comes when one feels it..not when one completely negates that identity...for his/her own self it is doesnt matter coz that is a personal choice,but when that particular person starts insulting those who are of that identity....i think there is a problem....aahemd doesnt accept pakistanis and pakistan...so why he is bent upon cussing all those who wanna rebuild pakistan...even if we have to start from scratch and ashes......

i know what the problems are...and we need to address them and eradicate them...that is what SHOULD be done.....

i feel u should read my replies and sharayar and all others...we all are for making Pakistan inshallah and not breaking it any more!!!!

and inshallah we will do that......

pink floyd: :)

well, i think we can``crawl out of the thin ice`` only if we stand like a ``wall`` and even though there are lots of ``pigs on the wings`` and ``dogs of war`` around and even though we are ``marooned``....still the ``division bell`` has tolled and ......yes, there are many ``lunatics``..they are on grass and in ``halls`` as well!!!!!

we can MAKE pakistan, what we dream it to be.....that would be a ``great gid in the sky`` and a ``GREAY DAY FOR FREEDOM``!!!:)

Re: Everyone

I think a lot has been said about the issue and I think we all need to get beyond personal insults and maybe this is a perfect opportunity for a lot of us to start something here.

I think there are many people who care about the situation back home and at least want to try to improve even a tiny bit whereas there are some who just want to keep on insulting people on the forum.

I think this is a perfect opportunity for us to bring something good out of this. If anyone who is interested, e-mail me at fataquie@hotmail.com

I have been thinking about something that we can contribute with but I don`t want to be laughed at by the whole forum.

And Mr. Ahmed, I`d like to apologize to you for getting carried away and saying words that I really did not mean. One of my teachers during my Capstone class told us that never e-mail or never say anything when you are angry because then only the things that really don`t do any good come out from your mind. But I do have a request or a suggestion, you have every right to not to like Pakistan, but please don`t insult the whole nation based on the perspective that you got by meeting a handful of Pakistanis. Again, no hard feelings.

Salam to all (and to aziz786, I am not a kathiawari and even if I were, I don`t see anything wrong with it). And please let`s all of us try do something here.

good lord..

what the hell has happened to chowk? where are all these zameendar, wadeeray tactics springing up from?

a tangent ( since i love them so very much and all the insults back and forth are frankly boring)..an article from allan bloom..its about the american mind (circa 1985) and it talks of how in america, students are taught about all cultures, they are sent into other cutlures for answers..and everyone is right. they are not taught about the american culture ( what is the american culture but a mix of others?) they will back down from an argument and agree to disagree...bloom is not for this. he feels that certain inalineable, natural rights/law should govern universally. he is against this relativism that abounds in america. other cultures, he points out, do not think everyone is right..only they are right. end of story.

my point, and i do have one...look at this discussion..i mean on a purely objective level, those who seem to have been educated in paksitan are not willing to listen to any criticism..scrolling through the responses i see things like, ``anyone who says anyhting bad about pakistan is wajb-ul-qatl`` or that real men defend pakistan and all its (im)perfections...they are not willing to hear anything bad about so beloved a country.

those educated in america or those who are more open to the idea of difference take a middle ground.

im not saying who is right and who is wrong ( a perfect prototype of american education gone wrong according to Bloom but hell, this is the way i was brought up...and i cannot help feeling that he doesnt take biculturalism to its full extent into the mix)...im just adding my two cents to the hornets nest...

im going to duck and ignore any insults hurled at me, so try to refrain..

z. ``innocent bystander`` rizvi

Re: Unknown

Let`s see... If I can answer your question regarding fataqie`s home town... He mentioned ``Biradri``, ``Family business``, and ``Khandan``. Hmmm... I think he is from Karachi`s Kathiawaar.

.....so you mean ``allah is not pakistani?``

bummer!

Re: Salman_Gorsi # 118 & Saaf-go # 119

Saaf, no I am not interested in letting the filth rot in Pakistan, but I am for an honest discussion of Pakistan`s problems. There is no question of belitting one`s sense of civic patriotism, as the article was mistakenly thought to assume. Patriotism and a love for one`s country is more a state of mind and it can not, and should not, be measured against another person`s sense of patriotism.

We, Pakistanis, need to just hang our dirty laundary in the open and see what happens. The first step towards curing what ails Pakistan is to admit it has problems. It is like going to a doctor`s office for treatment, but not telling him/her where the pain is. If s/he does not know what is the problem, how will s/he treat you! Presently, whether it is right or wrong, most Pakistanis are confusing and mis-identifying their sense of patriotism by denying that Pakistan has serious problems. The only way, which we as a people will solve our problems is by admitting to ourselves that we have a problem.

We better do this real quick before it kills us. Remember, a tumor starts out with symptoms of a headache, but if it is thought just to a headache and no preventive care is taken, it will grow and finally start effecting your overall health to the point of killing you!

Salman, I have heard about Pink Floyd and this is way we will all end up singing on the dark side of the moon! Instead of picking the ``The Wall`` as metaphor for Pakistan, I wish you had picked the song: ``the lunatic is on the grass...`` to describe the situation in Pakistan :)

Fatique, you sound like a great person...you are right people do need to be educated...if you are studying hard thats great, if you are educating your family that is even better. If you have a plan to bette Pakistan please share it with me. For myself, and a host of other Pakistani`s are part of a group that raises funds to spur education in Pakistan.

Saaf_go:

I understand what you mean...but for the ``maan ki gali`` part, I feel that what makes a person great is not that he fights back, but has the sense and courage not to fight back. This means listen to what people say, do something about it and then laugh at the fool who left his country for another. But until pakistani`s are willing to help themselves, I for one, cannot help them.

Re Fataquie:

I am touched by your reply..which part of Pakistan are you from?

Re Fataquie:

I am touched by your reply..which part of Pakistan are you from?

Salman, thanks that clarifies things a lot...no I don`t listen to Pink Floyd...I live in 1999, not in the 1980`s.

Re: mayhem

First of all, I`d like to appreciate what you and people like you have done for the country on your own. I may not have done even 1% of what you have done, and all I want to say ``Don`t give up``. There are many people in Pakistan who want to do something, just like you did, and there are many students over here in America, just like me, who are studying and want to do something about the situation over there after finishing education.

As far as my contribution, I realize it is nothing compared to yours. I come from a business familiy and many people from my family (khandan) came to the US to study, instead they got married and some stayed and some went back home. And nobody in my family was interested in education (and I am not proud of it) because of security from business. But I wanted to make a difference and I wanted to change their attitude. I got the highest % marks from my school in 10th grade, studied at Adamjee just because of sheer determination and hard work and I also became the frist engineer from my community or biradiri and also the first person from my community who came to the US and actually finished engineering (Bachelors). And now the attitude has changed in my family. They think that if I could do it, they can do it too. My younger brother, who hated school, is studying hard for his MCSE. To many it may not be a contribution at all, but to me if I can change the attitude of even one person, I`ll be happy.

And my point is: there are many people like ``mayhem`` who want to change the situation but it should be remembered that these changes cannot happen overnight and those of us who want to bring changes should not give up and should keep trying hard. And also ``mayhem`` what I have found is that making schools and creating jobs is hard but the hardest part is making people realize the importance of education and working. That is, making children whose parents are not educated realize how important education is and urging the people to work who are not willing to work. I think it`s more about changing the attitude of the people. I have always believed that nothing is impossible. If people of this country, US, have elevated to heights, I think so can we.

And to ``mayhem`` as far as putting my dollars in Pakistani economy, I am barely meeting my educational costs, but Inshallah, when I am able to do something, I won`t hesitate. And as far as getting a $45K job, I am not studying to make money (I know I may sound stupid to many), and if money was my priority, I`d have joined my father`s business and living a wonderful life right now.

And to ``mayhem`` my suggestion is don`t give up and like the Vital Signs said: ``haaro gay tub hi tum ko maza aai ga jeet ka``.

I may sound very unreasonable to you but I have been thinking about a plan that would put my contribution to work while I am still studying and I was afraid of being laughed at for sharing my sincere plan and thoughts. We can still make changes happen and I would appreciate your response in that. Then I`d give you the plan via e-mail.

Re: Mayhem, Slink, Ferozk

I hope you are not endorsing `Rot in the filth that is Pakistan`

I am not endorsing death threats either.

Chowk is a result of the work of people who care about Pakistan – no matter where they choose to live. We love pakistan, the idea, the community. We do not have any delusion about the state of the country and we are not from `Allah is also pakistani` school of thought but when someone, who so intentionally want to disown, pakistan lumps all good and bad into `filth`, it brings out in me the child who cannot tolerate `MaaN Ki Gaali`.

......perhaps I meant that in response to all the slinging and sarcasm and sneering,I might as well become/behave a wall....like when u hit it with a ball,no matter how hard....it comes back with more or less the same force.......

however if u want that to change, u should either bring down the wall or remake it....dont just pelt stones at it.......get my drift????

by wall i may mean Pakistan or I may mean my state of mind or anyone else`s for that matter, who feels like pakistan!

by the way have u ever heard``PINK FLOYD``

mayhem

plz read my all replies and all those who have similar views,maybe they will make sense......and read reply#112 by the author too......

Salman Goursi, you do not make any sense...``rebound of a wall``...what the hell is that supposed to mean, in the forum context...kindly clarify...I think I might be obtuse here...but that makes no sense to me whatsoever..

If ya`ll are such haters, and love Pakistan so much, go do something about it...Fatique...Mr. ``with the wannabe prestigious Oklahoma (sup?) address`` why don`t you go pump your dollars in the Pakistani economy instead of boosting some small town in Oklahoma`s (sup wit Norman, holmes...sup with a hick place...no wonder you are so closed minded)...Instead of going to a US school, go to a Pakistani one. Start a business there, try getting a job there, why are you here...go help your beloved Pakistan...but you are too scared to arn`t you...you like the security that you have here...probably majoring in EE or CS knowing that you will get a job that pays around $45K a year...can you ever get that in Pakistan right out of college...no you can`t right? What are you doing in the States? GO BACK fool and do something...put your dollars in the economy we have there, create jobs, feed people, donate money...but no...you will never do that...sheesh get a life.

In Dawn today, I read that the politicians are literally cussing out Nawaz Sharif cuz he wants peace...what the hell is wrong with these people. I have Pakistani friends who have done more than I have for Pakistan...they have raised money...put a super computer in Punjab University-the first in the nation-something 24 year olds could do, but not the government. They have built free schools and donate funding for 12 schools in Peshawar through the Alif Laila Foundation...they all did their part...and when they went to the govt with reccomendations and with a well thought out plan to put schools in all the rural areas...they got laughed at...they had a track record and did all they could do...they couldn`t educate the country with their own funds like they were doing...what do you make of a country which won`t let people who want to help help, yes they hate Paksitan just as much as I do, but like it or not thats where we are from and we always will be from there...but still who says we can`t start out fresh in a new country just like the ``muhajirs`` did after Partition.

If ya`ll are such haters, and love Pakistan so much, go do something about it...Fatique...Mr. ``with the wannabe prestigious Oklahoma (sup?) address`` why don`t you go pump your dollars in the Pakistani economy instead of boosting some small town in Oklahoma`s (sup wit Norman, holmes...sup with a hick place...no wonder you are so closed minded)...Instead of going to a US school, go to a Pakistani one. Start a business there, try getting a job there, why are you here...go help your beloved Pakistan...but you are too scared to arn`t you...you like the security that you have here...probably majoring in EE or CS knowing that you will get a job that pays around $45K a year...can you ever get that in Pakistan right out of college...no you can`t right? What are you doing in the States? GO BACK fool and do something...put your dollars in the economy we have there, create jobs, feed people, donate money...but no...you will never do that...sheesh get a life.

In Dawn today, I read that the politicians are literally cussing out Nawaz Sharif cuz he wants peace...what the hell is wrong with these people. I have Pakistani friends who have done more than I have for Pakistan...they have raised money...put a super computer in Punjab University-the first in the nation-something 24 year olds could do, but not the government. They have built free schools and donate funding for 12 schools in Peshawar through the Alif Laila Foundation...they all did their part...and when they went to the govt with reccomendations and with a well thought out plan to put schools in all the rural areas...they got laughed at...they had a track record and did all they could do...they couldn`t educate the country with their own funds like they were doing...what do you make of a country which won`t let people who want to help help, yes they hate Paksitan just as much as I do, but like it or not thats where we are from and we always will be from there...but still who says we can`t start out fresh in a new country just like the ``muhajirs`` did after Partition.

re:mayhem #105

Yes, I am afraid I can be stubborn and ``obtuse`` when somebody cusses mu motherland......

we have every right to beocme a wall.....and rebound with full force

Well well, thanks for the responses. I don`t feel that I have to say much, MAYHEM has, in a very articulate way, said pretty much what I`ve wanted to say. I would also like to thank the person who pointed out the differences between the FBI and the ISI, couldn`t have said it better myself.

And then there are always some people who can`t get beyond the pina coladas and the beach. Why is it anyone`s business how I choose to enjoy MY life, you self righteous jack asses. You have no right to tell me how I should live my life, but you have the audacity to continue telling me how I should have fun. Please, if you don`t have anything important to say, shut up and don`t bother posting anything, no matter how much you tell me how to live my life, it ain`t gonna change anything. This is precisely why I wrote the article in the first place, to let you self righteous jack asses know that your sarcasm or attitude towards others` lives don`t make a difference, no one cares how you think they should live their lives.

And to all of you proud pakistanis, go to the following web site and read a report from Amnesty International as well as a profile by the United States Department of State, then tell me that Pakistan is an Islamic state.

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Sector/5712/dos.doc

and

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Sector/5712/amnesty.doc

Ferozk you are 100% right, man o man...you let that one rip didn`t you..peace...

Xeena, my wannabe warrior princess...what you are not getting is that having lived in Pakistan and knowing it is so bad is the reason why people want out...there is nothing you can do that is appreciated. The guy hasn`t lived there cuz he has heard the horror stories...only a fool after hearing those stories would want to put himself in jeapordy...and Ahsan is educated...and he wouldn`t want to do it.

I had a certain amount of love for the nation, that I as a fool initially went back...but got screwed by the country...if you read my previous replies you would no how...

The country`s people, starting with you and Zeemax need to start opening theirr minds.

Re: fataquie

Thanks for sharing your address with us. Now, could you please tell us what we are supposed to do with it?

Of course, you have nothing to fear from the FBI, because unlike the ISI, the FBI does operate the under the presumption of innocent till proven guilty and it does offer the accused the due process of the law and it is has to answer for its actions. Friend, you have more rights as a non-citizen in this country than you do in your own country; a country, which seems intent to deny you all of your basic rights.

The fact that you live in this country pre-supposes the fact that you`re an intelligent person and because of that it begs the question why are you so intent on following Dr. Schultz`s advice when it comes to Pakistan: see no evil, hear no evil and think no evil.

People who have such anti-state feelings towards Pakistan are Wajibu-l-Katl !

I guess you will probably put me in the catagory of all your friends who get upset when you voice your oppionion about Pakistan. However, I would like to say this that the fact of the matter is that you have never ``LIVED`` in Pakistan. So all your oppinions are of one who is looking at something from outside and has never actually been inside. You can`t judge a country by being there a week or two every now and then. Before you give your expert oppionion, at least have the courtesy to live there.

Just so that some free speech advocates don?t forget we are exercising our right to freedom of speech in response to Ahsan?s reply 44.

Ahsan wrote:

?Suit yourselves, enjoy your pathetic little nation, and ruin your lives. I`ll be sipping Pina coloadas on a beautiful beach somewhere while you guys rot in the filth that is pakistan?

I am glad that so many who could choose to drink Pina Coladas on a Beach chose to respond. Let me say on behalf of those who care about Pakistan and its people to those who think that ?we will rot? in the ?filth? that is pakistan.

RaahataiN Aur Bhi Hain Ik Wasl Ki Raahat Kay Siwa (Faiz)

TARIQ LODI:

``Mr. Ahsan and the few like him and their ancestors got privileged education, foreign training and jobs at expense of people of Pakistan.`` I my father worked hard in international public service, does that mean the money he hearned was ``at the expense of the people in Pakistan? How on earth did what he did with his money (which was honestly earned) be ``at the expense of the people in Pakistan?`` If I busted my asss to be successfull how am I `` in debt to Pakistani people to serve Pakistan

and not to mock at the miseries faced by the people because of the selfish and ungrateful beings`` If you read my reply-it`s in either the 100-110 or 90-100 numbers...I tried to do something for this country...they mocked at my miserires to do something for them! They are the selfish and ungrateful ones. I have a 2000 rupeee bonus to every worker on thier birthday, I fed them meals lunch and dinner on work days, I hired teachers who would baby sit and teach the worker`s kids for free, and in my factories I still had numerous people who would not come to work on time, refuse to do the most menial tasks properly...what can one take from people who refuse to help themselves. What can one take from a govt in which Asif Zardari buys $55K worth of jewelry from Tiffany`s but only pays 1000 rupees in income taxes...what is Tiffany`s a tax deductible purchase?

I know that there are many people like me who have tried to do something for Pakistan, create jobs and improve the well being of people. I got nothing out of doing this except for the fact that I was scared my house would be robbed, my car be stolen at gun point, female kin raped,...you read the paper on the net, and ``thieves today had a field day`` or ``X thousand rupees stolen in broad day light`` there is never any good news any accomplishments reported, except maybe for those useless politicians arguing over equally useless issues. I can`t run for office, for my Urdu is extremely weak. Once someone in Pakistan knows you speak english they will try to do the same. Why? I don`t know...it really isn`t cool.

What will this country come to? I don`t know...it is as bad as some of the African countries, it is worse than almost all the Asian countries, and definitely worse than the Latin American countries.

A nation which is a disgrace in the way it treats itself if not a nation which can take any strides forward unless the people are cured of the sick diseases of selfishness, greed, and no being educated.

Salman and Peace: What on earth is wrong with you guys? Here someone is trying to be objective and you two typify and personify Pakistani`s by simply showing how obtuse you are by refusing to believe that this nation will not help itself.

Tell it like it is Ahsan !

Farouq Taj.

re fataquie`

you do indeed have the right to air your opinions, but central to the philosophy that allows you to do so is the belief that they are worth hearing.if you have a problem with what someone is saying, it would make more sense for you to reply in a rational, objective manner. your dramatic deaththreat response was unneccesary and unjustified and did nothing but undermine your own cause..whatever that was. i also find interesting that you say you are afriad of the isi. does that mean you`re familiar with their cruel and senseless misuse of authority? we`re all terribly impressed by the fact that you displayed your adress. now if you`re so concerned about the state of the beloved (and perfect) nation, why dont you send some of those death threats (plus addy in case they wish to reply) to those in power. after all, we all want the best for our country.

shandana

The views expressed are not untrue but only an outcome of a mind that has not heard the four-letter word “debt”. What the reader is led to believe is that he is a young man in his twenties, having no female kin going out on her own to college or work.

Ever since Pakistan came into being there have been two kinds of people living here, among the naturalised, born and giving births:

1. Who aspired for Pakistan, strived for Pakistan and dreamed of Pakistan.

2. On whose head Pakistan was thrust contrary to their wishes, and also those who loath their mothers were not charming and clever enough to have enticed an English man!

The picture presented of people and laws of Pakistan is true today. No doubt. Only much better than what it was in these areas prior to Pakistan. In most areas muslims living here were dominated by the minority, strong Hindu and Sikh feudal lords. On these feudal lords’ mercy and gratifications the majority of poor population, and some so called rich also depended for their upkeep and at times luxurious lives. The rich did not earn their Jagirs, acres and acres of land, and Annas just by hard labour. The British Empire and their agents were pleased with the services they provided and afforded them. In majority muslim city of Lahore Hira Mandi could be established across the road to the Great Mosque. On the 14th August 1947 the staff at the Railway Divisional Office at Karachi comprised of 350 personnel. Only two muslims: One guard from Sarhad and the other a peon from Sind. Such was the literacy rate! Baluchistan was not to be any different.

People here today own and travel in luxurious cars, air- planes, own factories, mines, and what not, acquired from the loans from government of Pakistan, belonging to Pakistanis. A glimpse of theirs’ and their forefathers’ past can be peeped into even today in certain remote areas of every province! On August 14th 1947 there were only three mills or factories worth the name an industry in Karachi! Coconut oil mills at Khori Garden, Dalmia Cement Factory and a bone mill near Old Golimar. What industry or mines were there in Sind, Baluchistan, Punjab or the NWFP? And what other means of transport common but for donkey ride, camel ride or the bullock cart, barring very few cars owned by Parsis, Hindus and Sikhs. The muslim, very rich rode a Tonga driven by muslim coachman.

The commander in chief of Pakistan Army at the inception of Pakistan was an English man, General Gracey. Quaide Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah the founder of Pakistan annoyed at the mischief of Ayub Khan wanted to expell him from the army but refrained on insistence of advisors that Pakistan Army lacked trained officers. He was admonished to wear officers’ cap. Rose to the soaring heights of being called President of Pakistan. Moosa Khan started his career in the British Indian Army stables and by the grace of God Almighty and inception of Pakistan with his efforts and intelligence, rose to the rank of a General in the Pakistan Army, retired as C .In C. and later became the Governor of a province. The Bhuttoes should ever be grateful to Mrs. Nusrat Bhutto (or Nusrat Saboonchi) who happened to be an Iranian and befriended another Iranian in very high position, being Nahid Sikandar Mirza, wife of the last Governor General of Pakistan. Through these rungs in the ladder young flamboyant play boy got introduction in the right places to share the similarity of proverbial “ANARI KA KANDHA”( shoulder provided by a novice for the hunters gun) with Justice Sajjad. Being different only in that the gun on his shoulder fired and that on the Justice’s misfired! This is to illustrate that the opportunity to rise for these people, people calling muslims in this part of the world could be provided by Pakistan only. In making Pakistan our elders simply said “Islam was in danger in undivided India” they did not explain it how. To my mind Islam was endangered because economy of muslims was and is threatened. Had they told the people that they would share the economy, and they understood it, things would certainly be different. We would have been fighting the enemies instead of with each other.

Muhammad Ali jinnah appealed to the literate and well to do muslims of the sub continent to come forward and help build Pakistan a strong and viable entity. Some responded, and even helped run the budget of the Country. Today, a Prime Minister of Pakistan vows to break the begging bowl once again and what he gets and from where and how!

On August 14th 1947 there were only three mills or factories worth the name an industry! Coconut oil mills at Khori Garden, Dalmia Cement Factory and a bone mill near Old Golimar. What industry or mines were there in Sind ,Baluchistan, Punjab or the NWFP?

People and their descendents who dreamed of Pakistan, who aspired for Pakistan and who strived for Pakistan owe their allegiance to Pakistan. They are in debt to Pakistan to make it worth living a place. They may have or not have been born here. They or their ancestors were raised on its soil. People who acquired naturalization elsewhere should realize that before they got branded “BLACKY” they were allowed entry to where ever they are because they were identified as Pakistani. Would Mr. Ahsan or any of his ancestors been allowed entry into a foreign country without a dirty filthy green Pakistani Passport. Mr. Ahsan is enjoying the free, literate, perhaps a little more law- abiding atmosphere because his ancestors were bred and raised on the produce of Pakistani sweat to which in return they owe every thing to help make the green piece of cloth with a crescent and star a flag under which who ever should come should feel secure and privileged like Mr.Ahsan unknowingly does today. To know the law abiding citizens one does not have to travel all the way with Columbus. Today the world has shrunk to the size of T.V. Screen. Just switch on and marvel at the ring in WWW. A nation that can cheat at sports openly, the referee conveniently looking away!

Yes Pakistanis are put to certain amount of difficulty at the airports and other institutions; all is not without reason either. Mostly it is because of the misdeeds of the people belonging to the second class of people as described above and because of people who can not be shamed. Because of the foreign-service personnel who instead of promoting and looking after the interests of Pakistan and Pakistanis for which they are quite handsomely paid do not do their job. Such are the people for whom it was stated in the USA that they would not hesitate selling their mother. And this greed is shown every now and then. And at the same time these people do face the wrath of Pakistanis. May be today they are not strong enough to take them to task. But Pakistanis, born, naturalised or resident else where owe to Pakistan, they and their descendents to centuries shall remain indebted. They owe to Pakistan to raise literacy, commerce, law, civic and civil services, armed services, etc.etc. Mr. Ahsan and the few like him and their ancestors got privileged education, foreign training and jobs at expense of people of Pakistan. They are in debt to Pakistani people to serve Pakistan and not to mock at the miseries faced by the people because of the selfish and ungrateful beings because of whom today we lament that world opinion is against Pakistan. Why should it not be. Our so-called puppets of politicians worked hard and sowed for fifty years the seed of dissent to keep the people divided, not to let them come in agreement with each other. When we have been doctored to be against each other it is living in a fools paradise expecting world opinion to agree with us.

As for the behaviour of Pakistani students, they are seeing altogether a different culture. They will gradually get accustomed to it. And may be they will be able to compare it with theirs and if with a mature mind find it acceptable will agree to name their children after the milkman’s or the green grocer’s. And the children in their turn would fill “NOT KNOWN” in the space provided for father’s name in a form provided for job or income tax purposes! I could not when I was studying abroad, in his age. When I came back almost every body expected me to be different, to look different to behave different. My answer to them was always “I could acquire a different coat of paint if I felt ashamed of the previous one!

TARIQ LODI.

FATIQUE:

``As far as the respect of women goes in your land of opportunities, they are getting b *l *o *w j *o *b *s * in the Oval

office!!!`` This is another one of YOUR quotes...I hope you don`t respect your wife to the extent that she would get a

b *l *o *w *j *o *b...WAKE UP HOMIE X THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE-IT IS SOMETHING ONLY MEN CAN GET, MEN

WITH UNMENTIONABLE MALE APPENDAGES-NOT WOMEN!-AND IF YOU WANT TO GET sensitive

ABOUT IT-YES I DO KNOW AND THINK THAT CLINTON SUX...LONG LIVE Geroge W. Bush Jr. IN 2000

AT LEAST HE ONLY INHALES! Please get a life, and get educated...open your mind...chill baby...try to do something.

Fatique, writing to you right now, between the ads of the home run derby on ESPN is not what I want to do, but I have to tell

you how ``to keep it real.`` ``Also, if you have ever watched news in your life, you`d find out that Pakistan had a female Prime

Minister in Bhutto.`` This is your quote... d a m n f o o l do you know what she did...she went on CBS and told Dan Rather that Pakistan

should be a terrorist state...her exact words...she looted, plundered, and gave all of us a bad name. She is the reason that

thousands of families have all their foreign accounts in Pakistan frozen (and the blame is partly the population as well because

of their insistence on insanity-the tests of nuclear arsenal). What are you thinking when you speak of her election as an

accomplishment.

EVERYONE: I created over 500 jobs in Lahore, I made a more than a significant profit...but I had to bribe customs in

Karachi, I had to bribe truckers in Lahore, I had to exploit labor conditions in rural areas, I had to put up with workers who

wern`t willing to do a job that I overpaid them to do. In short I had to live a frustrating life with the people, I had to live a

dishonest life only to survive. Pakistan might be a Muslim country but it is not an Islamic country. I gave all that up for a life

filled with honesty. We need to educate this country thats it. Get rid of all the Mullahs, MNA`s, MPA`s, and everyone else. We

have Abida Hussain as the science and technology minister. What on earth does se know about s&t? Once these people don`t

want personal gain...we can move on...but we never will for people like you refuse to let us do so. Not realizing, not being

open-minded, not understanding, will never take us anywhere. I did everything I could in my power but was not treated right in

return...what good can I say about this country. I got married, instead of inviting 500 guests I fed 500 poor people. All the

money I got on my wedding I gave to Nawaz Sharif due to his tours of the US and pleading us to participate in the ``help the

country`` scheme. Where the $50K I gave to this country is...I don`t know...not even a thank you note or note of

acknowledgement. That money is probably sitting in someone`s bank account. What am I supposed to say about Pakistan?

People have affairs, drink, and enroll in ``dubious`` businesses, yet they are critical of the people who work hard for a living, or

anyone who does anything good...made fun of by the ``rich upper class`` of Lahore...I gave this country all I could to an

extent...but recieved nothing...except for a place where my parents could come and settle down for 25 years after partition...I

have paid their dues and my dues...and no longer want to help a country that refuses to help itself.

Asalamualaikum Fatique,

I just want to know if you are one of the ``200,000 Pakistani soldiers always on call to defend their country and many of them faced the enemy with that ``juzba``. I didn`t think so, and please the truth. If I`m wrong, hell I`m sorry but seriously would you die for your country? No-I didn`t think so-but if I`m wrong, hell I`m sorry. I`m not sorry for you, but the closed mindedness you are subject to-this is the very disease that prevails our country. Let me ask you ``what efforts have you made to make this country great for generations?`` This is your statement, and ``Pakistan, which has existed for only 52 years, to a country that has existed for more than 225 years, I don`t think it seems fair.`` Let me tell you something, I you want Pakistan to be where America is today 173 years from now (and still think that is fair) you will be living a) in a country that is destitute and b) in a nation that has the most uneducated people who will cheat, lie, steal, and rape to get what they want. Is this the country you love? I do think so!

Oh yeah, and please do use Pakistani words like ``nahi`` instead of ``aint`` because you seem to love Pakistan-after all who can argue with you we do seem to have the greatest language and culture in the world, people who created such swear words that you can`t even create them in english...yes I am talking about the very word that is every other word in a sentence. Fatique, is this the culture you love?

I am just trying to educate you, saying don`t be blind please. We all know that everyone has their faults...but lets be open to those faults..and lets not idiosyncrasize nor hypocratize.

Respectfully,

Mayhem.

Re: SR

Here is my address:

121 W. Constitution, Apt # C,

Norman,OK 73072

And let me see what your FBI can do??

fataquie

If I may suggest, please don’t argue with the fools or whatsoever you may want to call them. First, they will take you down to their level and then they will beat you with experience.

I just read something and would like to share with the readers.

“Why has the Shiv Sena always targeted him? `` I think it is because I was born in Pakistan. But this cannot be undone,`` Kumar said.”. (Dilip Kumar)

re:Fataquie

hats off to u and three cheers to u for ur patriotitsm.....

I m really proud that there are people like u and sharayar out there.....

we are not slaves...ppl should know that..

I AM WITH YOU....

NO ONE ...I REPEAT...NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO DEGRADE OUR MOTHERLAND!!!!!!!!

For those people, who would like my address, you don`t need to look for FBI, I can give it to you myself. I don`t understand how come you guys stand when people like Mr.Ahmed and Chotu talk crap about Pakistan.

Just to let you know, there are more than 200,000 Pakistani soldiers always on call to defend their country and many of them faced the enemy with that ``juzba``. What gives some moron a right to disgrace these men and women in uniform, by talking crap about the motherland they are defending, who go away from their families, putting their lives in jeapordy, just because of pure love for their country. And Alhumdulillah, this is the kind of love that I have for Pakistan. So if someone talks crap about PAKISTAN, he or she better be ready to get the same kinda answer.

I know there are a lotta ills in Pakistan but tell me which country is perfect??? Not even the US. I can fill up pages writing crap about US, but I only counter acted Mr. Ahmed`s response! But I agree that doesn`t mean that we shouldn`t do anything to improve Pakistan`s situation.

Ans what Mr. Ahmed did was disgracing the people who are doing something for the country, by using the words like ``pathetic`` or ``filth`` for Pakistan.

Sure he has his freedom of speech right over the internet, and SO DO I!!! And I believe these are the kind of people who disgrace the dream of Quaid, Iqbal, and many others who gave their lives and put in all their efforts to make a new homeland for their generations.

When Pakistan was created, it was not in this situation, im many cases (e.g. Army, universities etc.) it was in even a worse position and we have progressed.

And when Mr. Ahmed compares Pakistan, which has existed for only 52 years, to a country that has existed for more than 225 years, I don`t think it seems fair. And Mr. Ahmed should know that USA did not have any influence on the ``World Policy`` until after the Civil War, around the late 1800`s, more than 150 years after they got independence, when they had a war with Spanish empire (in Mexico).

As far as disrespect to the country goes, Mr. Ahmed and everybody who is ashamed of Pakistan has every right to point out ills in Pakistan, but when they use filthy language, do you know how would it make people feel who love Pakistan so much that they are willing to volunteer to face the enemy at the highest battlefield, or ``peak`` I should say.

So, if THEY can use abusive language for Pakistan, then they better be prepared for all sorts of answers!!!

And for many who are concerned, I ain`t scared of FBI, rather I`d be scared of ISI!!! Why the hell I`d be scared of FBI???? I ain`t American and FBI has no right on me!! This shows the pathetic mentality of many who are free but still the mental slaves of whites. Yes I am scared of ISI, but no way by F B I! Got the answer!!!!!

re:mayhem

awfully sorry to hear what those rascals and thieves did......

but one thing is quite obvious and evident.....it`s not the land....it`s the people.....we need to educate the ppl and erdaicate all those social evils that have caused such a stigma and blotch on the face of our country and society.....just because a few are corrupt,decayed and sick...that doesn`t mean we cuss everybody who lives in Pakistan....a scum is a scum no matter here in Pakistan or abroad.....devils of today can`t become saints of tommorow!!!!!!!!!!!

I think enough has been said on this article and the replies have encompassed all that should have been justly said.....the article was crude and insolent and if the replies spit their venom...it was aahemed getting the taste of his own medicine!!

if ur home is on fire,u dont put petrol on it(as aahmed seems keen on doing) rather u try to put out the fire.....every one who is a Pakistani should strive for a better future not only for their own selves...but also for Pakistan and if they find this disdainful and abhorrable...they should go and relax on San Tropez...we dont mind...but leave that match stick back home............

some people seem to be carrying bundles!!!

sharayar

Everyone, just has to write back and vent their anger on you...after reading the first couple of replies, it isn`t hard to understand why Sheryar