A Road To Siachen

Re: Amit

Point well taken, this issue is highly emotional and hence, all the reason to approach it with a cool head. You seem to be correct in identifying Kashmir as the sine qua non and as a rasion d`etre of Pakistan. Pakistan needs to de-link Kashmir as its main focus, because it is effectivily curtailing our options to deal with the crisis and only seems to limit our flexibility in dealing with the problem.

Re: Rishi

Rishi, I can follow your advice and refrain from involving myself, but I would only be defeating my own purposes. The reason why I objected to Omar`s posts is, because I fail to understand the source of his hatred and why he persists to demonize and belittle Indians.

Personally speaking, there have been times when I find myself in disagreement with the Indians and what their stance on an issue might have been. However, despite my disagreements with them, I have never opted, or felt the need, to demonize them or belittle them as a people. This is the crux of my question. I would really like to know why Omar can not argue an issue without turning it into a personal grudge match and a verbally abusive interact session?

Re: anarayan

My reference, and article, was on the Pakistani military mind and how it sought to change the equation in Kashmir. In hindsight it was a brilliant strategy if you consider the amount of logistical planning, the training involved, the deception of intent, the covert infilteration into Indian Kashmir and the creation of a support system, which kept the Indian army occupied for a better part of nearly two months trying to re-take the heights.

The fact that it did not work, does not lessen its scope of audacity, because it does offer a textbook model, for professional military planners, to study on how to organize and sustain a military campaign in the mountains. The German Army`s Schlieffen Plan, for the invasion of France during the First World War, was absolutely brilliant despite its failures and it is still a required course of study at all of the worlds` military academies, including at Dehra Dun, on how to plan an offensive.

The Germans lost the Battle of Kursk to the Soviet Red Army, in 1943, but that did not prevent the Israeli armorored forces from adopting it a as role model for their armored forces` training. In fact, the role models for Israeli tankers ares not the Americans or their armor doctrines, but the German Panzerfuhrers of World War Two. Moshe Dyan`s hero was Guderian! Israelis train their armor officers to react like the Germans used to in a battle. Why would they do this if the Germans lost the war?

Do you know that most air force academies teach their students on how to conduct air strikes, on naval ships, by using the model of Iraqi Air Force`s attack on the American naval vessel USS Stark? Why, because it was a textbook operation, which covered all the basics even though the Iraqi Air Force is now considered as a joke!

Consequently, just because I applaud Pakistan`s logistical accumen in Kargil does not mean that I fail to realize the problems of Pakistani military or those of South Asia`s missed opportunites! :)

Re: OMAR1974

What is up with you and this German accent? Omar, since we are speaking German, I have to ask you: was ist los mit du?

A nuclear war should always be considered as ein verboten logik (a forbidden logic or an idea)and it should never be considered as a viable option to any problem. Also, just because you have access to nuclear weapons does not mean that they should be used, because the real value of nuclear weapons lies in their deterrenence and not in their use.

In other words, just because a person owns a firearm, a hand gun, it does not mean that he should play Russian roulette with it!

What i`m trying to tell ya Feroz: (transliteration)tu arey ageis!

Feroz: Akhtuliebe mein en got! Zum Donne-vetta nokhe mal! (just my attempt at transliteration)

(my grandma is German, my dad speaks German, my g.grandmuther was German, any more questions? :)

Omar

Re: Amit Reply #: 63

`` ... I am sorry for the outburst ...``

(No semblance of an apology from the other side we note). Amit, You did serve a purpose though. My general appraisal is that most pakistanis have a pseudo-macho outlook. I hesitate to say this, but it could be an offshoot of the `punjabi` culture - arrogance and bombast, which is magnified 10-fold in pakistan by propaganda and delusions of grandeur.

Pakistan is a pseudo democracy. The army operates independent of any civilian control. The generals don`t give a damn what their actions lead to. We need to make them pay for their little games. To your earlier suggestions, I would add this. Let the Indian intelligence create an assasination wing something on the lines of Israel`s Mossad. This should target the wealth and families of these military personel settled abroad (one of who I suspect contributes his puerile outpourings to this chat).

It would be nice to see Musharraf shed some real tears, instead of the `magarmach` variety for the 700 NLI soldiers - who died for his whim.

Re: Ferozk

Feroz, don`t sully urself by replying to sh * *.

-- Rishi

Re:Ferozek #49

Feroze, I am sorry for the outburst in my previous posting. After reading Omar`s postings, I had simply lost my cool and responded in kind. Since I consider myself to be a moderate, I was surprised at how easy it is to get emotionally carried away on Indo-Pak issues.

On the topic of Kashmir, the only practical solution is some sort of a compromise that requires all the three parties - Indians, Pakistanis and Kashmiris to move away from their stated positions. It is impossible to implement any one-sided solution that will be humiliating for any of the three parties. I feel that India had started this process with the Lahore declaration. Since the root of the problem lies in hindu-muslim tensions and partition, it makes sense to ask for trade, people to people relations etc. to improve the atmosphere, so as to reach a solution in Kashmir.

After the Kargil affair, people in India are beginning to realize that it is next to impossible to deal with Pakistan. One day you are invited to Lahore and everyone is doing the Bhangra, next day there is war, the third day you again want peace; how can anybody deal with this ? In spite of all the talk about Kashmir, Pakistan has never really launched a full scale invasion of Kashmir. This means that they would want negotiations. However, at the same time Pakistan seems to be adamant about not allowing people to people relations or trade relations. This means that the atmosphere remains vicious and unfriendly and hence we do not see any chance of a solution. It defies logic as to how this policy helps helps the Kashmir cause. The only explanation is that Kashmir is a vested interest for the Pakistani establishment and they are not really interested in solving the problem.

What is really disturbing is that the Pakistani establishment has embraced a doctrine wherein Kashmir is the sole agenda for Pakistan without allowing any solution to actually occur. It is nothing but a ploy to initiate and maintain a Jihad atmosphere against India. The fact that Pakistan seems to have little interest in socio-economic improvement shows that it only wants a negative agenda of spreading Taliban style Jihad in its neighborhood in Afghanistan and South Asia. It is hard to understand the ultimate objective because it cannot be explained by religion. After all, Islam was created as a positive force that encouraged education, knowledge, civilization and socio-economic equality. It is no wonder that Indian muslims are completely supporting India as they know that Pakistan`s policies have nothing to do with Islam. The civil and military leaders in Islamabad are embracing a mad policy and India is unable to develop the right response.

Re: Ferozk Reply #: 55

``The future of Pakistan and India can be better served by investing in education than in missiles,but then again, this is what makes the tragedy of the sub-continent so bitter-sweet, because it is a tragedy, which can easily be avoided.``

Strange turnaround - from one who was highlighting pakistan`s ``briliant strategy`` in kargil only a few mails ago ?!

Perhaps he just forgot to complete the sentence - ``... because it is a tragedy, which can easily be avoided...``

I would hazard a few guesses:

``...if these Indians just give us the rest of kashmir.``

``...if the Indian Army allows us to creep in all the way to Ladakh.``

``...if uncle Sam and brother Han show some support.``

There is a comment in the article yhat india is finding difficulty in recruiting army personnel and is running low on recruitment aspirants. The following report could be of interest to khan when he revises the article to `the road away from kargil`

Army job seekers go berserk again

By Our Staff Correspondent

PATNA, JULY 17. At least three persons were killed and over 60, including a score of police personnel, injured today when the aspirants for Army posts turned violent at Darbhanga, Chapra and Aurangabad district headquarters. Police opened fire at the mob which snatched police weapons and fired at them and indulged in arson.

According to the Home Secretary, Mr. U. N. Panjiar and the DGP, Mr. K. A. Jacob, the turnout at the three district headquarters was beyond expectations and when things went out of control, the police opened fire at Darbhanga and Chapra. While one person died in Darbhanga, two were killed in the Chapra incident. The police however, maintained that only one person had died of bullet injuries, in Chapra.

There were no casualties in Aurangabad and the number of injured in the clash between the police and the aspirants was put at six.

The officials maintained that the mob in Darbhanga snatched a rifle from a constable and shot at and injured him. While in Chapra an ASI was relieved of his revolver and was shot at. His condition has said to be critical.

Following the incident, the Army today cancelled the recruitment drive schedule for July 21 in Darbhanga.

Unofficial sources however put the death toll in the two police firing at six.

NOW REPEAT AFTER ME. `Nuclear war is preferable to negotiated settlement` (German accent again). Feroz, you lead the chorus, i suspect you have a rather nice singing voice. Well, perhaps when you`ve had a few more drinks and are quite fully intoxicated you will give us ze pleasure? Ja?

Ze herd mentality. Nietzche. Peacenicks! Get it? Or are u all still scratching your heads? Well keep doing it, its a good way to check to see whether a) You have any hair left, and b) if the radioactivity has started effecting you yet.

Omar

`Did we at least git more o` `em? ` (with Southern drawl)

Omar`s comment upon hearing New Delhi, Bombay, Madras, Calcutta, Amritsar, Karachi, Islamabad, Lahore, Peshawar and Quetta all got nuked about an hour ago.

Comment #2 folowing the news

Omar to young 18 year old son.

`Son, get a move on to the nearest sportin` goods store and the dept of enengy, we`re gonna go pick up a couple of those anti-radioactive suits, a couple of machettes, sporting rifles with sniper sights and some Evian along the way. Gonna go hunting, git us some pagan scalps. Ought` a be few among the living left who wanna join the dead. Giddy up Silver! Yee-haw!`

DRIVER WHERE U TAKIN` US ... ALL OF THE CHILDREN R INSANE! WAITING for the SUMMER RAIN ...

Yeah!

YEAH BABY! YEAHHHHH!!!

(All posts to be read in chronological order)

GIVE THE MASSES WHAT THEY WANT on both sides of the border. USE THE BOMB!

quote me freely,

Omar Mirza

LESS FRAYDOM, MORE TAXES. (with a harsh gutteral German accent). Its what the masses want. All wisdom comes from the masses. (Red Chinese communist philosophy). We must look to the masses for wisdom. All intellectuels to the fields, labor, will put you in touch with true wisdom. It will also furnish turnips for dinner (German accent, with Mao Cap on). To the fields! Some calluses on your hands comrade! (To show your decidcation to the masses). Nowadays we call it NEW LABOUR. To promote `Correct thinking`, one must .... consult F.K before posting any `obscence` view. He is now the official obscence view-clearer at Chowk (again, German, but slightly softer in ze throat).

F.K should heed his own words from an earlier post, `it is impossible to ever truly understand Omar.` But understanding me, is not relevant to the transfer of Kashmir to Paki sovereignity and whatever is deemed necessary to effect zis transfer, Indians screaming, kicking, wrenching their hair/turbans and gnashing their teeth, notwithstanding. Ja, Feroz, zis new weapon MUST be used! The good of humanity is foremost amongst our thoughts! May the force be with you!

regards,

Omar

f.K; Now while i`m at it (making suggestions for a better world), i also thought i`d add eradicating poverty and world hunger to my list. oh, yes, the universal brotherhood of man, thats my priority in life ya know, eliminating want and suffering. oh, YEAH! I`m planning on dedicating my life to doctors sans frontiers real soon. Oh, YEAH! Its what i really believe in. Nuke thy neighbour, to adapt a quote from Austin Powers (from `the Spy who shagged me`) YEAH BABY, YEAH!

India, GIVE IT UP Baby. Cause we r too `frightining to behold.` Lungi cladders across the border better watch out!

Omar a/k/a A.P 007

(devotee of the Karma Sutra and part time Kali-ma and monkey g-d idol worshipping fiend, blood suckin` hell raising, pagan skull cracking devil worshipper) For References refer to my old friend, F.K.:)

Re: fataquie # 51

First of all, there is no common sense justification for war or for its expenditure in both money and lives. The real costs of war are not measured in dead soldiers, but in ruined and shattered lives of families who have lost a loved one. Consequently, it does not really matter if Pakistan has a less of a war debt than India, because future generations, in both nations, will be paying for this faux pas for a long time to come in terms of hate, anger, and mutual recriminations.

You`re absolutely right. The future of Pakistan and India can be better served by investing in education than in missiles, but then again, this is what makes the tragedy of the sub-continent so bitter-sweet, because it is a tragedy, which can easily be avoided.

Re:OMAR1974 # 53

Omar, my friend, I am sorry to say the following, but your recent posts have left me with no choice, but to wonder about your levels of rationality. In the past, I had tried to be diplomatic, but since diplomatic tact does not seem to work, please allow me to be extermely blunt in my comments.

I can appreciate the emotional vortex, which the question of Kashmir engenders in people, but from reading your recent posts, it seems that you have completely lost your mind. I am specifically refering to your comment, which suggests that ``a nuclear war may be required`` to settle the issue of Kashmir. Do you have any inkling of what you seem to be advocating?

I think that it is utterly obscene to suggest such a scenrio and then to compound your arrogance by stating a willingness to accept the casualities, which such a course of action might accrue. What makes you think that you have a moral right to condone the murder of millions of people as being something acceptable? As if to show your own sense of rabid hatred on this issue, you are willing to legitimize the countless deaths of innocent human beings who have done you no harm. Who made you God, over their solitary existence, that you can so carelessly end their lives on the basis of your own indulgent personal whims? How dare you suggest this vulgarity, knowing fully well that you will suffer no ill consequences of such a disater while residing in the relative comfort of these United States.

I would like to know where you seem to get your sense of god-like authority, which allows you to judge persons as traitors and ask that their lives be nullfied to soothe your own sense of patriotism? I would like to know what devine inspiration made you God`s chosen avenger, which seems to bless you with an ability to act as a judge and jury over another human being and encourage his murder just to balm your own sense of a personal vanity?

Omar, I am extermely sorry to say this, but your hate filled and bitter posts only inspire a sense of deep disgust in me and when you suggest that human lives could be used as pawns to settle the issue of Kashmir and that murder is justified in the name of a cause, I have an urge to vomit, because I am sickened by such a blantant display of blind hatred. Your last few posts have been nothing more than a series of pure hate mongerings, which seem to cheapen the value of a human life by denying it its ordained sense of sanctity and by demonizing those who seem to disagree with you or do not seem share similar sentiments with your own sense of believes.

Omar, what makes most of your comments seem so absurd is that you are a highly intelligent person who has benefited from an excellent education from some of the world`s finest universities and yet, you have exhibted a sense of ignorance in your comments, which is simply frightening to behold and comprehend.

``Remember what the wise Jedi master Yoda once said: Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to the dark side! :)``

I can see George Lucas` script writer sueing Yoda on this :-)

Here`s one more mundane:

Greed, propaganda & lies lead to Illusion, Illusion leads to megalomania, megalomania leads to adventurism and adventurism leads to downfall. Comprende ?

fataquie : Reply #: 50

`` ... the ``worst`` democracy in the world, India, which can ban news on tv and newspapers which show more facts than fiction about Kashmir and India as a whole.``

That is infinitely preferable to sending hapless soldiers to certain death on hare-brained strategies. The Indian Commander said that pakistan`s govt. has two statements on any issue -one for outsiders and one for domestic consumption. The bodies of brave pakistani soldiers who followed orders and lost their lives are in India at the moment. Pakistan is refusing to receive them openly since doing so would cause their `facts` turning to `fictions` - and so we hear of ``India trying to politicise the issue`` in the pakistani media. Can there be a greater shame for a nation ? - disowning its own sons who laid down their precious lives ?

Do we really need Agnis and Ghauris or NEDs and IITs?

Good question. I`m not sure how seriously you are asking this though (going by your mails). Also, are you asking this of others or to your own self. The former has no meaning at all.

If the British could leave Hong Kong, the French could be driven out of Algeria and Vietnam, the Israelis forced to negotiate with the Palestinians because of the intifada, the Serbs driven from Kosovo (their spiritual heartland), the U.S driven out of Vietnam, the Russians driven out of Aghanistan (the costs of which contributed to the collape of the USSR), and the IRA/Sein Fein and the British, Irish and N.Ireland gov (and basically all Catholic and Protestant groups) could agree to a cease fire and a political peace process, and Pakistan could be driven out East Pakistan, then what is India in the face of the resistence of the people of Kashmir and Pakistan? Its very simple, when the costs escalate, India will be forced to negotiate. Clearly, we have not yet reached the point where costs become intolerable and unsustainable for India. A nuclear war may be required. But whatever it takes, no matter how many people have to die (we really DON`T give a damn), we will prevail in the end, because right is on our side, as are principles. Have no doubts. The basic fact is that the Kashmiris don`t want to be part of India, and do what India may, it cannot change their national/ethnic/ religious sense of identity which is entirely alienated from Indian citizenship. This is a simple fact. Sooner or later India must come to terms with it. Controlling a hostile local population that actively supports action against the state is not a viable strategy in the long term for India. This is a basic fact. It is upto Pakistan and Pakistanis to insure the cost of India`s theft increases daily.

I propose the elimination of all traitors, starting with the puppet Chief minister of IOK, F.Abdullah. His swift death at the hands of determined muslims even at the cost of their own lives (martyrs) will energize our struggle like nothing else. It will also be a warning to other collaborators (the few Kashmiri muslims/x-militants India has recruited)that their fate will be same as meted out to Palestinian collaborators. There is no place to hide any longer. The world IS a global village. We`re gonna get ya. You won`t get a moments peace. No one can protect ya. Hey, the Tamils got Rajiv Gandhi. The Sikhs got Indira Gandhi. The muslims R GONNA GET F. Abdullah. Better believe it. Its a matter of time. His days are numbered. Watch the news.

And as for those Indians that keep bringing up India`s remaining muslim `problem` of co-existence to try to confuse the Kashmiri issue, frankly, all we are interested in is Kashmir, not Hyderabad Daccan etc, those people opted to stay in India, they are cut out to make compromises for the sake of coexistence, they are Indian citizens by choice. I don`t see what that issue, a purely internal Indian affair, has anything to do with the illegal occupation of Kashmir by India, where elections are rigged and produce 5% turnouts and there is no political legitimacy whatsoever of the brazen Indian occupation. India`s domestic problems are its omestic problems. We don`t give a hoot about them. Kashmir is Internationally recognized disputed territory. There is a clear difference between muslims in Bombay, and muslims in the vale of Kashmir. Better understand it.

Omar