A Road To Siachen

Omar and Amit, I can understand your sense of passions in this matter. Yes, this is an emotional issue, but I would kindly ask you two gentlemen to refrain from excessive exhibitions of rancor and bitterness in your posts.

We can all go around calling each other names to our heart`s content, but at the end of the day we would have only managed to waste our time without even addressing the problem. Calling India or Pakistan names and praying for its citizens` death will not solve the issue, it will only create a sense of resentment, which will foster and merely nourish one group`s hatred for the other group.

Remember what the wise Jedi master Yoda once said: Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to the dark side! :)

The influential Washington Post in an editorial captioned `Cooling Kashmir` on Thursday said that `India`s denial of the democratic benefit in Kashmir is what the dispute remains basically about. An initiative along this line would earn India rich tribute.`

To those who are bent on obfuscating the real issue by focusing on fundamentalism in Pakistan, its internal problems, the `Paki-mindset` etc, I think you should, as diplomatic circles would phrase it, `stop interfering in Pakistan`s internal domestic affairs`. Quite frankly, whatever Pakistan`s internal problems, Pakistanis (Secular and Fundamentalists alike) are by and large united on the Kashmir issue. The issue is quite simple. India as a nation is as guilty as a common horse thief of theft and is a nation of mendacious horse thieves. Over the the past 50+ years they have proven their mendacity and duplicity. We will recover our property sooner or later. The tide is rising against Indian occupation of the valley. Look at the fayte of the U.S in S.Vietnam and the USSR in Afghanistan. Kashmir is India`s quagmire. Its continued occupation will destroy India. We, in Pakistan don`t give a damn about anything else when it comes to realtions with India. What we want is Kashmir. (Jammu and Ladhakh might be negotible in a final settlement). Whatever we choose to do with it, Kashmir is our business. INDIA GET OUT OF KASHMIR. This is now all that the process of dialogue should consist of. Lord knows India has heard us on this matter before. The question ladies and gentleman is only what punishment shall be meted out for this daily and continuing theft and rape of our lands and people. What will be the penalty we shall impose for this theft. We are not going to wait another 50 years, our patience is NOW at an end. We are quite prepared to pay any price necessary to insure that India returns (voluntarily or otherwise) Kashmir to Pakistan, its lawful sovereign. We don`t want to hear anything further on the matter. Discussion closed. The ends justify whatever means are used to attain our goals. The only language that needs to be spoken from now on is one of bullets, bombs, shells exploding, and the roar of artillery. Pagan-heathen savages must be dealt with firmly. We have been far too lenient with them thus far.

If there are concrete peaceful steps Pakistan should take immediate they are the following:

1) Hold an immediate plebescite under U.N supervision in accordance with U.N Resolutions, in Azad Kashmir, and withdraw the Pakistan Army from Kashmir entirely during the process. After Pakistan has done this, the onus will be on India to comply as well. International pressure will mount on India to follow suit. After such a long time, this would be a bold diplomatic masterstroke of utter genius on the part of Pakistan. The shoe would then be on the other foot. India`s utter moral bankruptcy would stand is sharp contrast to Pakistan`s adherence to the will of the international community.

2) Following the Plebescite, declare all Kashmiris Pakistani citizens, including those in Indian occupied Kashmir (like West Germany dealt with the East Germans prior to 1989 and Germans today worldwide, and like Israel treats Jews worldwide today), with right of automatic residence in Pakistan plus Pakistani passports.

Omar

Re:Everyone

I am not a military expert but wrote that the Kargil mission or war put Pakistan about $5 million more in debt and India had to bear $something millions on its part.

I just wonder how can this be justified when there are many who want to study and cannot get admission because there arn`t many shchools which can accomodate the increasing number of students both in India and Pakistan???

Can someone answer:

Do we really need Agnis and Ghauris or NEDs and IITs??

regards

FT

Re: Najib

At many places in this forum, you have written that the creation of Pakistan was ``wrong`` and ``illegal``.

If that is the case, then my friend all of India should be ruled by muslims just like the way it was ruled before the British came to India.

On the other hand, the Pakistanis should ask for all of the land(India)that they, muslims, ruled before the British came to India. So the Pakistanis should not only be asking for Kashmir, but also for West Bengal, Assam, Hyberabad Deccan and all the other territories and states ``illegally`` occupied by the ``worst`` democracy in the world, India, which can ban news on tv and newspapers which show more facts than fiction about Kashmir and India as a whole.

In a major diplomatic and political setback to India, the Human Rights Watch on Thursday called on the international community to suspend all military ties with India because of the massive violations of human rights by its military in Kashmir.

``France, Germany, Russia, Britain, United States and India`s other trading partners should suspend all military aid and sales and all programmes of military cooperation with India,`` the Human Rights Watch demanded.

The demand was made in a report titled ``Behind the Conflict in Kashmir`` that includes a scathing indictment of the Indian security forces and details their horrendous rapes, killings and torture of Kashmiri civilians.

The international community, the Human Rights Watch demanded, should also suspend joint military exercises, until India provides greater accountability on cases of disappearances, torture, and summary killings by its forces in Kashmir and disarms all state-sponsored paramilitary groups operating in Kashmir.

``At the annual World Bank-sponsored donors meeting on India, participant countries should publicly state that continued economic support for India should not be seen as support for the Indian government`s human rights policies,`` the organisation demanded.

``In the statement, and in private and public meetings with Indian government officials, members of the donor group should raise concerns about deteriorating conditions in Doda and other border districts and press India to allow greater access to these areas and other parts of Kashmir to international organisations,`` the Human Rights Watch recommended.

``They should press India to invite the UN special rapporteurs and the working groups to visit Kashmir. They should also raise concerns about attacks on human rights defenders in Kashmir.

``The diplomatic staff of India`s allies and trading partners should make a point of visiting areas of the state outside the Kashmir valley, particularly Doda, Rajouri and Punch, and ensure that their reports reflect current human rights conditions in these areas,`` the Human Rights Watch demanded.

The report said the escalation in fighting has made it urgent that the international community put pressure on India to end widespread human rights violations by its security forces in Kashmir, and on Pakistan to end its support for militant groups.

The 44-page report focuses on the border areas in southern Kashmir.

Human Rights Watch demanded the Indian government to probe summary executions, disappearances, rape and other assaults by its security forces in Kashmir.

``The government of India should immediately initiate an impartial investigation into reports that the Eighth Rashtriya Rifles Battalion in Doda has been responsible for summary executions, ``disappearances,`` rape, and other assaults on villagers,`` it said.

``Other army units and security personnel named in other incidents of abuse should also be investigated and members found responsible for abuse prosecuted and punished,`` the Human Rights Watch demanded.

``The government of India should disarm and disband all state-sponsored militias not established and regulated by law and prosecute members of such groups who have been responsible for extra judicial killings, ``disappearances,`` assaults, and other abuses.

``The government of India should establish a civilian review board to oversee any rehabilitation program for surrendered militants.

``This review board should have access to records on surrendered weapons and should review vocational training programs to ensure that the former militants are not compelled to serve in state paramilitary forces not established and regulated by law, or induced to take part in security operations that violate international human rights and humanitarian law.

ôAlthough the government of India has promised since 1993 to establish a centralised register of detainees accessible to lawyers and family members, this has never happened.

Nation Newsgroup: 16 July, 99

there is some amount of honesty in your writing. but the problem is that most pakistanis believe kashmir to be some kind of a real estate issue. it is as if getting control over kashmir will solve all the india pakistan problems. the problem between india and pakistan is not the piece of real estate that goes by the name of kashmir. it has a lot to do with the pakistani mindset. after all just 28 years ago, it did have control over east pakistan-what is now known as bangladesh. why did it lose control over this area? the problem pure and simple is that in the first place pakistan has to come to terms with itself. i believe that once the pakistani army its establishment and the people come to terms with themselves, they will stop indulging in such juvenile gimmicks, like the one they tried in kargil. it is true that india did commit a blunder in the sense that it allowed the intruders to settle over such an extended area. and for that we have paid with the lives of our young and valiant soldiers. but it is time that the pakistani establishment realised the fighting the might of the indian army is not like a cricket match. supporting the khalistani militants did not yield any pay off. so supporting the kashmiri militants also is not going to yield dividends. like the punjabis , the kashmiris in india also did not ``rise to the pakistani`` expectations and support such subversive acts. the reason is quite simple. indians unlike the pakistanis are quite at ease with india. and this is true inspite of all the religious and caste divisions. let us face it. there is no substitute for pluralistic society, even though we too have no dearth of fundamentalists who would like to make india a hindu version of pakistan. thank god, they don`t succeed.

Can we keep the discussion civil?

Ilanjetchenni

Re:Omar#41-43

Since you wish to give lessons in history, do you know that Patel had offered Kashmir to Jinnah in exchange for Hyderabad around 1948 ? Jinnah had rejected the offer because he valued Hyderabad more than Kashmir and he felt that he had some chance at getting it. You know quite well that Hyderbad had an overwhelming hindu majority ruled by a muslim ruler. Moreover, Jinnah was also negotiating with the Rajput rulers of Rajasthan although their kingdoms were hindu majority. Jinnah was willing to accept any conditions which would attract them to Pakistan. The reality is that partition was a free for all. Both sides wanted to grab as much territory as possible and they acted in very similar fashion. The only difference is that India managed to get the maximum territory.

As far as Kashmir is concerned, here is a novel suggestion. Why doesn`t Pakistan ask the All Party Hurriyat Conference (APHC) to fight assembly elections in Kashmir ? APHC can continue with its pro Pakistan ideology and demand UN supervisors to ensure no rigging. If APHC can win the elections and form a state government, it would be the clearest signal that Kashmiris want out. It would marginalize Farooq Abdullah and provide a genuine representative to talk to. In 1970, Mujib had fought elections under Pakistani constitution and won it overwhelmingly. As a result, he became the voice of the Bengalis ? Why doesn`t the APHC do the same ? We don`t have to wait till the UN plebiscite to find out what Kashmiris really want.

Finally a thought on your crude, disgusting remarks about Indians and our soldiers. The feelings are mutual on this side. Let me tell you that Pakistan came within inches of getting nuked out of this planet, which made Nawaz run to Washington with his tail between his legs. The mood in India is getting really nasty against Pakistan and people are reaching their limits. If Pakistan keeps this up, India will not be restrained in the future. In a unrestricted nuclear exchange, we may get hurt but you will be vaporized. If you behave like animals, we will do the same and even worse. People like you are a real representative of the Pakistani establishment and their subhuman mindset.

People in India are itching to have an all out war with you and finish it once and for all. However, we will do it with intelligence. First, the government is going to place a three tier security cordon around Kashmir to ensure that Mujahedin cannot enter the heart of Kashmir and all conflict is localized at the borders. I hope that they put in internal fencing within Indian territory to restrict access to most of Kashmir, while extensively landmining the outer areas. Secondly we should set Pakistan on fire. We should send in trained and motivated subversives to carry out mass scale terrorism in Pakistan. We should seek the help of Iranians, Uzbeks and other Central Asians who cannot tolerate Pakistanis and the Taliban to help out. Thirdly we should rope in the Indian muslims to go to Kashmir and lobby them to support India. Fourthly we should do everything possible to crush Pakistan`s residual economy. Wherever, Pakistan has any exports, India should go in and outprice Pakistani goods. If there are any successful businesses, Indian mercenaries should sabotage them. We should contaminate the Indus river waters to ensure that agriculture fails completely in Pakistan. Finally, we should deploy an arsenal of nuclear weapons and a clear plan for the total destruction of Pakistan and Afghanistan, if we need to. It should be a deadly series of strikes that takes out all the urban centers, the military installations and crush these two places once and for all.

Clarification on previous post

When I said 300-400 dead I meant on an average monthly basis from here on in. Now consider the following, Kargil only cost India about 323 dead (offically doctored Indian govt stats), add to that at least another 200 dead they won`t admit to publically. Well, all that effort and it only got us about 500 Indian casulaties, after all that planning. And did it hurt India? Yes. Now what can we do to hurt India more, and raise casualties. Well, 1 SA-7 handheld SAM is not too expensive, nor is an operation requiring at most a dozen operatives in India to secure a location/residence, establish a cover, near either an IAF base or a major civilian airport and shoot down either IAF fighters or transport aircraft, or a large civilian airliner right in the heart of their country from a rooftop location. The objective must be to make them feel vulnerable. For that reason one must strike indiscriminately, relentlessly, and at virtually any target. In fact the target list neeeds to be expanded by the mujahids if we are gonna get Indians to really sit up and take notice and realize Kashmir is a no-win proposition and they are not willing to pay the cost in human/financial terms that will be imposed on India. This needs to be made personal. Yeah, it could be YOU (if you`re Indian) on that plane buddy, reading this right now. So tell me, is it worth YOUR dying so that India can continue to oppress and occupy Kashmir and Kashmiris against their wishes? And steal Pakistani land? Why is India so afraid to hold an Impartial plebescite? Supposedly as they never tire of telling us and the world, its the world`s largest democracy! So arranging one should be too difficult to manage for them IF they want to. And they don`t want to YET. So they must forced into it. Its useless talking to them. They (the Indians) should all become targets. Tell me, O` Indians, how does it feel to become a target? The only good Indian? A dead one. India GET OUT OF Kashmir!

Omar

India; Applying Pakistan`s historical lessons

The lesson from history which Pakistan must learn is that India cannot be trusted. First J.P.K Nehru lied in promising to settle the dispute amicably, and in 1962 when India was being whipped soundly by China, India got the U.S to make Pakistan to forswear any move on Kashmir in return for a promise to settle the dispute after the Indo-Chinese war. Ayub Khan, a simple soldier took their word. Once the crisis was over, the Indians became tone-deaf to the word Kashmir again. Pakistan should have seized this golden opportunity in 1962, when it was at the height of its military power and soundly whipped Indians like the common horse theives they are. For they as a country and people are no better. History has taught us that the only language that gets through to their thick skulls is when you knock their teeth out. Then one can `talk` to them. India get out of Kashmir, or the only way your soldiers will leave will be in bodybags. And if Indians wanna play games with the dead bodies of Pakistani soldiers KIA (See Dawn today), well, just remember that 2 can play this game. We can send your soldiers arthiees (cremated) back, not the bodies next time. See how you guys like that. Aglee baar hum un ka achii tarha Antim Sanskar jaisay Indian movies may dikhaatay hein, KAR KE aap ko wapaas karein gay. See how their near and dear react to that. I think it may now be well past due for some Indian embassies to be bombed around the world. I`m surprised the mujahideen have not already begun a systematic campaign worldwide. Its really the only way to force a settlement in the long term. 300-400 Indian dead every month in Kashmir/Siachin/LOC/Worldwide is an acheivable/imposeable cost. Over a period of a few years the Indian army can be thoroughly demoralized in Kashmir. Funding should be trebled. The mujahids have already started taking on the nest of vipers in their own dens (ex.recent attack on BSF camp inside Kashmir), and the IAF and the Indian army head on directly, as in Kargil. This is a good begining. Let us have more!

Omar

Re: Anarayan

My dear An, do you really think Kashmiris if given the choice, with a free, fair and transparent plebiscite would vote to remain part of India? I seriously doubt that India would get more than 10% of the Kashmiri vote. The formula for self-determination called for by U.N resolution in 1949 is really a face saving way for India to end its illegal occupation of J&K. In fact its a decent way of telling a thief (India) that we`ll, VOTE U OUT, rather than merely kick you out, which in all justice India deserves fully. You people are lucky to be treated so well, you should be treated the way India has treated its own neighbors. Get out of Kashmir while you can with some pride left.

Basically, I guess I need to teach you a history lesson, not the crap they taught you in school growing up which you evidently swallowed hook, line and sinker.

British India had a number of princely states, these states were to be given the free choice to join either Pakistan or India, no other choice was offered. Now that was the first principle. Even Indian historiofabricators should have no problems with this. Now, what India did in fact do was to deprive Munawadar, Hyderabad and Junadgah of this free choice and used force to insure they joined the Indian Union. Sardar Patel is still eulogised for this act. When this occured, the rules of the game changed. India had come out and set the precedent for breaking the basic principle on which the partition of the subcontinent was based in 1947. What this meant was that India has defacto stated that all Hindu majority states were going to be forced to join India, no ifs, ands or buts about. Now, the contrapositive of this principle is also equally simple, i.e Muslim majority areas should thus join Pakistan. You see it was India that abrogated the basic principle of partition, not Pakistan. Therefore, based on logic and fair play alone, the Maharaja`s signiture on the instrument of accession to India, AFTER he had lost control of the state was tantamount to signing a ratti ka kagaz (worthless piece of paper), which had no significance and cannot be used to legitimise Indian occupation of J&K. The U.N General Assembly decided that hey, lets ask the people of Kashmir which state they want to join. This populist principle was not the principle on which British India had been partitioned, neverthless, there is probably no doubt that the other 3 Indian princely states that were annexed would probably have, if they had held a majority vote, voted to join the Indian Union. Similarly, there is little doubt that the Kashmiri people if consulted in 1947, would also have voted to join Kashmir. It is India ironically that introduced this new principle into the partition process. The U.N General Assembly merely gave it sanction in International law. The process of partition is still unfinished today as a result of Indian-Hindu duplicity, typical of the Hindu-bunya mentality of wanting it all (the cake and eating it as well), willing to squeeze every last drop from the poor peasants given the opportunity-chance, without a care (this is an excellent characterization of India`s International behavior). Now, no where was it ever stated that the Kashmiris had the right to independence, as opposed to accession to either India or Pakistan if that is what your comments are implying.

It is only the norms of democracy, and the seemingly intractable nature of the Kashmir conflict between India and Pakistan that have given birth to this new notion of a third way.

Any questions? I just call a spade, a spade. No need to mince words.

Omar

Re: zeemax

Okay, to answer your question about an Indian blocade of Pakistan`s shipping lanes, the answer is that it can be effected with varing results.

On the computer sim, what became clear was that Indian Navy has the means to chortle Pakistan shipping lanes, but it will have to operate around 250-500kms from the Pakistani coast, within Pakistan`s exclusive economic zone and it will need to deploy its surface assets through the entire lenght of Pakistan`s coastline. This type of a deployment is ideal if the intention is to stop smuggling, but it limits Indian tactical options in a war. Such a deployment would put the Indian Navy`s surface assets within the combat radius of PAF`s fleet of Mirage Vs, which are armed with Exocet AIM-39 (range 45kms)and Harpoon ASM (range 85+kms)missiles. The effective range of Mirage Vs is about 1500+ kms and given the relativily short distance to the Indian ships, their capacity to loiter over the target area would be around 30-45 minutes. Thus, to avoid this threat, the Indian can only move east, because if they move west and north they will heading towards the Arabian peninsula, which raises a whole set of other problems.

Another fact to be considered is that since the Indians are without a carrier, since Vikrant is being consigned to scrap, the Indian Navy would find itself without any early warning and effective fighter cover in case if Pakistan launches an ``vampire`` - air attack. Yes, the Indians out number the Pakistani Navy in total maritime surveillance aircraft (4:1), they can warn the Indian Navy, but they can not provide an effective CAP over Indian assets, which would limit Indian Navy`s overall operational intent in interdicting Pakistani shipping lanes.

This does not mean that Pakistani shipping will have an easy time, and if the Indians deploy their assets, tactically, outside of the Straits of Hormuz, they can easily intercept Pakistan bound ships. The question then is how to identify ships bound for Karachi and the Indians can not board any vessel they like, because that would be a violtion of the admirality laws on commerce on the open seas and the biggest patron of this international law priniciple is America. I highly doubt the Indian Navy wants the American naval assets in the Arabian Gulf to moniter its movements.

The only trick to circumvent the Indian blocade, and it worked in the sim, would require the cooperation of the Iranians. If the Iranians would give safe passage, the ships bound for Pakistan can sail within Iranian territorial waters, upon reaching the western end of Hormuz, near Bahrain, and thus, simply pass into Pakistani territorial waters. Iranians might be convinced to do this, but then in return they would surely ask Pakistan to do something about the violence between sunnis and shias in Pakistan.

Hence, the whole enterprise devolves into a series of trade-offs. What is the final cost and how bad does one want to pay for it!

Hope this helps.....

Re: anarayan # 23

This belated reply is in response to your question of where I got the information on the high accident rate of the Indian Air Force. That information came from an article in The Times of India, June 13, 1998, which reported the 1998 Report of the Comptoller and Auditor-General of India. According to that report, IAF lost 187 aircraft and 63 pilots killed between 1991-97. Of the 187 aircraft, which crashed 147 were totally destroyed and beyond repair.

In a similar period PAF lost 35 aircraft.

This fact was further complimented by the Military Balance 1998/1999 of the Insitute for Strategic Studies, published by the Oxford University Press. MB`s report said that the high rate of IAF accidents was due to the fact that IAF was still using Kiran Mark II and Polish Iskra basic trainers and it was using the MiG 21UB as an advanced trainer for conversion purposes. The IAF students could not handle the MiG 21UB, because while they were accustomed to react within minutes on the Kiran, the MiG was forcing them to react within seconds. The IAF pilots were having spatial problems of reacting and antcipating situations ahead of time and this was severely impacting their sense of situtional awareness.

Situational Awarness is a term, which means that the pilot must be aware of his immediate surroundings and he must have at all times a 3D mental picture, based on the data available to him. Also, he must at all times know the orientation of his aircraft to the ground, while being mindful of his vector, altitude, speed and the energy ``bleed`` of his aircraft; thrust to weight ratios and how to continually maximize aircraft performance rates while in flight.

I think that it was Najib who mentioned that IAF suffers a high accident rate than IAF, because it pilots fly more sorties and thus log more flight hours.

This is not true either. According MB, the most hours logged per year was by the United States Air Force, which averaged about 230 hrs per year for its pilots; PAF was second with its pilots arveraging 220 hrs per year. Israeli Air Force came in at 180 hrs per year and the IAF average was 130 hrs per year.

Hope this answers your questions about the source of my infomation.

Interesting article Mr. Khan (though

I do not share many of your analysis

and conclusions).

Here is a link to an article by Eric Arnett

that deals partly with the air thinking on the part of India and Pakistan (with a relevant reference to retired Air Marshal Ayaz Ahmed Khan`s article ``Challenge of the Indian Air Threat`` in The Nation in 1997). The article

itself is larger in scope (title: ``Nuclear

Stability and Arms Sales to India: Implications for U.S. Policy).

http://www.armscontrol.org/ACT/august/arnett.html

Ilanjetchenni

Re: OMAR1974 Reply #: 37

``... but until all of Kashmir is part of Pakistan, and India ends its illegal occupation of Kashmir,India and Indians shall remain orgre(s)#1 for almost all Pakistanis``.

We HAVE (unwittingly) admitted it, have we !

At least spare us the rhetoric on ``self-determination of kashmiris`` and ``freedom struggle``. If you (ever) thought that India did`nt see through your BS, think again.

Amit #33 or 31? Anyway, Sure there are a ton of problems in Pakistan (I never said there weren`t), but until all of Kashmir is part of Pakistan, and India ends its illegal occupation of Kashmir, India and Indians shall remain orgre(s)#1 for almost all Pakistanis.

Omar

Here is a list of some more weapons projects and weapons being made by Pakistani defense industries.

The following systems are being made by Dr. A.Q. Khan Labs, at Kahuta

Surface to Air guided missiles (Anza Mk I and II);
Anti Tank Guided missile Weapons System; Anti Tank Mine Clearing Charges; Remote Control Mine Exploders; MBRLS (Multi Barrel Rocket Launcher);
Laser Range Finders; Laser Threat Senors; Laser
Actuated Target; Laser Aiming Device; Digital Goniometers; TOW Missiles Modules; Add-on Reactive Armor kits.

Also, the following systems and sub-systems are in R&D status or in prouction with the following firms:

ATCOP Drivers Night Sight for T-Series Tanks
ATCOP Intergrated Fire Control Systems
ATCOP Laser Range Finders for T-Series Tanks
(Al Technique Corp. Pakistan)

DNVP-1A Drivers Night Viewers
AN/PVS-5A Night Vision Goggles Third Generation
(Insitute of Optronics)

100mm APFSDS Tank Barrels
(Machinecrafts, Pvt. Lahore)

155mm; 130mm, 125mm, HEAT SABOT, FE, projectiles plus 125mm; 81mm, 75mm mortar rounds and small arms munitions
(Pakistan Ordnance Factories)

Below is a list of other defense related firms in Pakistan:

Insitute of Optronics
Pakistan Ordnance Factories
Dr. A.Q. Khan Labs
Al-Technique Corp.
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (Aircraft Manufacturing Complex; Mirage and Chinese aircrafts)
Heavy Industries (production M113 APCs and Khalid MBT)
Machinecrafts
Alsons Industries
Military Vehicile Research and Development Establishment.