Falsehoods Galore

Re: Kidwai

thanx for the report. Precisely my opinion too. I do agree that the govt plays with the sentiments of us muslims. However , when i look at it in a wider angle, i do realize that the govt plays with everyones sentiments. afterall this is just vote bank politics. thus, a scheduled caste/ scheduled tribe is played against the other backward castes, the obc`s are played against the forward caste, the christians , the muslims and the hindus are all pitted against each other for vote gain. However, if one individual irrespective of his background, religion, caste or creed decides that he is going to improve his own livelihood, India does provide him/her with that. Atleast no one is denied admission in college, or employment based on religion. If only n percent of muslims are sanctioned loans, then we should also look at how many muslims apply for loans. IN my circle of friends, there are 3 other muslim, 6 hindus, 2 christians and 1 jain. All the 3 other muslims are from well to do families. Two of them are in the US doing/have done higher studies, and one of them runs a flourishing timber business back home. They are easily the most educated and well to do in our circle. Add me into the picture and you get an idea of where we come from.

As far as Studebakers contention that Kashmiri struggle is not based on religion....that does not hold water. If it does , then we should be asking for referendums in Andhrapradesh and Goa. The point is simple,,, Muslims are not discriminated against in India , especially not in Kashmir (atleast as per official policy) like Hindus and christians are in Pakistan. We are ruled by the law of the land , not religion as in Pakistan. That is the difference and we need to preserve it. For our good and for the good of our kashmiri brethen.

Iconoclast

(yes, it does mean breaker of images - wrong images -- if that means idol breaker well it does )

I found the following article which might be interesting to Iconoclast and Studebaker

Source: http://www.afmi.mynet.net/growth.html

Economic Growth of Indian Muslims

By Akram Syed

According to a study conducted by the U.S. Commerce department, India`s growing consumer class, otherwise known as ``middle class,`` ranges from 100 million to 300 million people. This middle class is defined as those people having disposable income to purchase an array of luxurious consumer goods which are considered a daily necessity in the western society. This leaves an alarming 650 to 850 million people of India still struggling to make ends meet including a phenomenal figure of over 100 million Indian Muslims on the border of poverty line.

The country`s major shift in investment and trade policies in favor of free enterprise is succeeding in attracting investment by foreign firms which could mean better opportunity and a higher standard of living for a small percentage of people in the short term. For this phenomenon to have a trickle-down effect, however, India needs to invest heavily on its social and educational upliftment programs among its masses

particularly the minorities.

For the last four decades, many political parties have treated Muslims mainly as a ``vote bank`` without bothering about their social/economic/political well being. Unfortunately, other than giving them empty slogans such as `garibi hatao` and playing with their emotions through confusing situations like `Babari Masjid and ``triple talaq,`` the average Indian politician has done little for these suffering masses. As a result, the poor

not only became poorer but were pushed to the periphery of acute backwardness.

By far, the worst victims of this political mishandling have been the Muslims constituting about 12 to 15 percent of the nation`s population. They do not have a meaningful presence in any field. For instance, they are intensely poor having no land or industry, and at least 97 percent of them are non-existent in trade and finance. Millions are without jobs. According to Gopal Singh`s published report, only about 4 percent of Muslims girls and boys reached the higher secondary level, and only about 1.6 percent passed out of college. They fill less than 4.5 percent of government jobs and 7 percent of the seats on the nation`s high court.

Muslims receive about 2 percent of industrial licenses issued by the government, 3.7 percent of available financial assistance, and about 5 percent of loans approved by public sector banks. Among the 528 members of the Lok Sabha, only 23 members constituting 4.4 percent are Muslims. The scene is likewise in the private sector.

As the statistics mentioned above seem to indicate, Muslims have never been fully integrated into modern Indian society. It is almost pointless to debate which group is at the bottom of the barrel in a country with so many people of several religions living in desperate conditions. Muslims unfortunately confront the toughest barriers when trying to break into India`s growing middle class.

It is worth mentioning that the Indian Muslim community is somewhat responsible for its backwardness by having followed the self-centered leaders whose interest was focused more on non-economic and non-educational issues. The Muslim leadership has only educated the community on emotional issues such as the personal law and Urdu language. Its absolutely true that Indian Muslims have not placed much

emphasis on education. Many Muslims keep their children out of school thereby causing the community`s literacy rate to lag far behind that of other groups. The ``madrasa style`` of education has neither been able to promote skill-oriented or vocational education nor address the sense of priorities among the Muslim community.

The Indian Muslim community must come to the realization that the ``only freedom is economic freedom`` and education is the only vehicle from the present state of illiteracy and darkness to a strong progressive future. For several Muslims, education has been a force in transforming poor underprivileged individuals and families into productive community. For the Indian Muslims, education will offer an opportunity to gain

security, status, comparative affluence, and serve the nation by influencing the decision-making process as mainstream Indians.

It is the government of India`s responsibility to seriously make an attempt to identify the real problems and causes of backwardness among Muslims. The government must promote a grassroots educational initiative directed towards the educational upliftment of Muslims. Some type of reservation must be accommodated to motivate and ensure that the rural and urban minorities have the same access to and are treated equally in the educational institutions as in any other community.

The Indian corporations and business community should institutionalize and promote the transition of Indian minorities from the present state into the middle class by contributing for causes such as drive towards literacy, educational upliftment, etc. It would be in their best interest to have a market base of several hundred million skilled, talented, and educated people with enough buying power to sustain the domestic industry. Indian corporations should invest in community services geared towards minorities instead of funding the radical/fanatic political ideologies. Undoubtedly, some day when the Indian Muslims attain their

economic and social destiny, they will, having forgotten the present chapter of communal suspicion and conflict, face the problems of modern life from a modern perspective. Differences will exist, but they will be economic rather than communal. ``There can be no independence without financial independence.`` Every Indian Muslim should welcome these free market reforms as an opportunity for economic growth and

social status which could be achieved through greater emphasis on education.

Studebaker,

If i remember correctly, Studebaker, is the model name of a chrysler car in the 1950s. (some one asked what it stood for), the name itself is a variation of the trade based name of the poms.

Yes, what i wanted to comment upon was the demonisation of islam. I havnt come across anything from the indian govt media trying to demonise islam, in most of india, particularly in south india, political partie vie for muslim support, offering all kinds of incentives.

In kerala, a district of Malappuram was created simply because the area has large muslim concentration. Over the past 20 years since its creation, the palce is a small pakistan, many muslims involved in the bomb attacks in Coimbatore found shelter in this place.

Demonisation of islam started in the western media following the arab-israel war, theterrorist activities of munich olimpics, the burning of a couple of planes in the arab deserts in the 70s gave a visual image to the islam demon.

It would be wrong to generalise from a single event, but the following from Australia might make you wonder about the islamic mentality.

A local govt school was sold to a muslim society to run an islamic school. The local govt and every one liked the idea, a new cultural infusion into the locality. In the school they started having prayers, people were coming and going in the middle of the night, local people distubed by the trafic objected. The muslims said it is part of the education, the prayers will go on. They went to court, the court ordered the practice to stop. Legally, they could only be fined, $100 per day. The muslims said that they would pay the fine and continue with the practice. The above law has stood for 50 years.

Now the Federal Govt in Australia is forced to amend the law for forceful closure of the offending institution

Now tell me Mr Studebaker was it really necessary for the muslims to come to this. Dont you think some other muslim organisation could have come around for mediation. If the australian media demonises islam can you complain.

May be, just may be there is something inherent in islam that teaches intolerance to other religions. Is it true that according to islam kafirs are to be killed. If so can you say unconditionally that that part of islam is crap. No you wont dare to, fatwas take care of you.

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All the arguments seem to disregard two issues:

1. Kashmir is still considered disputed territory, according to the UN. The fact that India or Pakistan occupies it, does not make it undisputed. None of the agreements Simla, Lahore etc. declared Kashmir to be undisputed territory.

2. The future of Kashmir must be decided by the Kashmiris, not by Pakistanis or Indians. Regardless of what kind of logic Indian supporters presents, and how much they try to blame Pakistan for the Kahsmir problem, they still cannot answer one simple question, i.e. if Kashmir is an integral part of India, and most of the Kashmiris (apart from the freedom fighters) want to side with India, then why is India so reluctant to hold a vote there?

The independence of Kashmir will not be decided by India or Pakistan, or any of the other countries of the world. It will be decided by the people of Kashmir. People that want independence have to fight and sacrifice for it, themselves. That is what the Pakistanis had to do to get Pakistan, and that is what the Indians had to do to get India. Just like the British had to be forced out, similarly the Kashmiris will have to force out the Indians.

The international governments have turned a blind eye to the fact that India has not allowed human rights organizations to enter Kashmir. USA and other countries do not want to, ``rock the boat`` with India. They are very hypocritical when it comes to human rights. What the Kashmiris need to do is bring their struggles into the homes on the common man in these countries through the various news sources like CNN, BBC etc. That is when the general population of the world will get up and notice, and force their governments to denounce Indian actions.

Armies cannot go on commiting human rights violations forever. They are not trained to kill civilians. Eventually something has to give. If the Kashmiris can continue with their struggle, then that is what is going to happen with the Indian army in Kashmir.

This should not be looked at as a battle between Pakistan and India; nor is it a battle between Islam and Hinduism. This is a battle between the oppressed (Kashmiris) versus the oppressors (India). Whether India and Pakistan like or dislike each other is immaterial, because it is the innocent Kashmiris that are being victimized.

To quote a famous Kashmiri, from 1947:

``We have decided that the fate of Kashmir is ultimately to be decided by the Kashmiri people. That pledge we have given not only to the people of Kashmir but to the world. We will not, and cannot, back out of it. We are prepared, when peace and law and order have been established, to have a referendum held under the auspices of the United Nations. We want it to be a fair and just reference to the people, and we shall accept the verdict. I can imagine no fairer and juster offer.``

Jawahar Lal Nehru (Oct 1947, All India Radio)

It is time that India held up its side of the bargain.

Here is an article from TIME Asia which shows exactly how the pakistan army planned this operation:

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/time/asia/magazine/1999/990712/loc1.html

And here is another. An interview with a pak soldier who spent 77 days in Kargil:

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/time/asia/magazine/1999/990712/soldier1.html

I wonder how the pakistanis at chowk will respond to this.

Brigadier Qureshi and brother Salahuddin and their bare-faced lies ! Will somebody please give him a decent map of kargil. Recently, after India captured the Tiger Hills, this pathetic joker postulated that it was just another Indian propaganda - there was no such place as Tiger Hills on HIS map !!!!!!!

Dear Pakistanis citizens, wake up! Your govt. and generals are playing with your lives and those of your family. They have their foreign bank accounts and families settled abroad while you will be left paying for their sins.

Re: Arvind

Interesting you should bring up China. Pakistan`s friendship with China is more a result of its problems with India than with any affinity we might feel for their politics. In fact, if there wasn`t a constant environment of tension with India; most of the Pakistani public would be focussed on the way the Chinese treat the Muslims in the west.

Also, the Nixon meeting which ``opened up`` China and can be seen as the first sign of change within that country (change that is still continuing, and will eventually lead to democracy there) was arranged by Pakistan.

Faraz

Faraz, you wrote:

``Indians have always held somewhat of a soft spot for communism; whereas most Pakistanis find it morally repugnant.``

Perhaps the Pakistani love of ``morally repugnant`` ideologies accounts for its ``brotherly`` relations with the largest communist dictatorship in the world, China!

Arvind

Ms. Khan

Your `analysis` leaves much to be desired. You seem to be offering insight in to the Kashmir issue but fail to get over Partition, which [thank God] has already been decided.

1. On Pakistan`s ideology you state: ``The true reason, though, is not the fear of oppression. It is fueled by a greed for power and control by three groups of people -- feudal lords, clergy, and most importantly, the army.``

The feudal lords and clergy did not support Jinnah. Most of the same mullahs you now denounce were against Partition [ironic, but would have supported you back then]. And the feudal lords weren`t too supportive of Jinnah either. As for the army it was completely different institution at the time of Partition. Jinnah, once commented that he created the nation with a secretary and a typewriter; such was the lack of support shown to him by feudals and religious leaders. So your basic understanding of the ideology of Pakistan is, shall we say, WRONG.

2. ``Once Pakistan was formed, Jinnah was promptly thrown into a cell, albeit well furnished, and declared ill.`` I know that we as a country have horribly failed to live up to Jinnah`s vision, but he was not ``declared`` ill; he was gravely ill even before Partition. Mountbatten later said, if he had known of Jinnah`s health he would have delayed Independence and ``there would never have been a Pakistan``.

3. The nuclear tests. Your inability to ascribe any blame to the Indian government for nuclearising the subcontinent last year is appalling. Harping on democracy, morality as if they were the hallmarks of Indian society (Hah!) you fail to see anything wrong with ``democratic`` governments plunging their region in to such danger in the midst of peace. Shame on you.

4. India and ``demonstrably free societies``. I, personally, hope India does become a free society. But if you think it even close to such an ideal, you`re dreaming. You are correct to speak of constitutions written on paper; for the vast majority of India`s poor (just like their counterparts in Pakistan) the consitution is just that; a piece of paper which the elites of both countries use to claim the right to be called civilized.

5. Many Indians are trying to position themselves as the Pro-western part of the subcontinent and Pakistan as the Fundamentalist portion. I do not see too many Americans (let`s face it; they are the one`s whose opinions matter these days) buying this crap. Pakistani public opinion has usually been more alligned with western ideals than Indian public opinion, not that is a good way to describe the difference between the two countries. Thus while, you rant and rave at the fallout from the Afghanistan war; I for one am proud of what we did there. Indians have always held somewhat of a soft spot for communism; whereas most Pakistanis find it morally repugnant. The collapse of communism and totalitarian regimes (the same ones that supplied India with arms) is now a historical fact, and to hear Indians speak you would never know of their history with those characters.

Secondly, free-India`s `morality` exhibited itself once again in the Kosovo crisis where their fears of international opinion (God forbid) being focussed on Kashmir, actually made them speak in favor of genocidal regimes headed by communists. While we are speaking about international public opinion and Kashmir, have you ever thought why Pakistan is for it and India against it? Its because, like it or not, we have the stronger argument for Kashmir.

Stop this Pakistan bashing!!! I am proud of Pakistan?s more than five thousand year old history and confident of its prosperous future.

Yes, our political system has to mature and democracy has to strengthen but that DOES NOT mean that we are at a verge of collapse. I did not think that India was at a brink of collapse when it sent forces to the Golden Temple and killed hundreds and thousands of Sikhs, I did not think that India would collapse when fundamentalist Hindus destroyed the Babri Masjid and showed their respect for other religions and I do not think India will collapse even when it is killing thousands of innocent Kashmiries along with the ``terrorists`` sent by ISI.

Then as far as our neighborly relations are concerned -

Besides with India, Pakistan enjoys good relations with all of it?s neighbors - China, Iran and Afghanistan. India on the other hand has problems with almost all of it?s neighbors - China, Pakistan, Bangladesh. Does that prove anything?

Nuclear tests - So if India conducts tests and says that it will not be the first one to use them then does that make them a responsible and mature nation? Do you honestly believe in whatever your politicians say - and whom do you believe in anyway? There is a new government in India every other month and even if one says that it will not be the first one to use nuclear weapons the next one might not agree to that! In any case - Accept it - It was wrong and immature for both countries to test nuclear weapons and it did not matter what political statements they made afterwards.

At the end I would like to say one thing. If India honestly wants to have peace with Pakistan it will have to accept Pakistan?s existence. It should stop dreaming that Pakistan will collapse one day. Pakistan will survive and so will its 140 million peace loving people who love their homeland so much. If our politicians have done some mistakes we accept it and will work towards fixing it. Indians should do the same.

P.S.: Just to point one thing and how inaccurate and biased Indian Media is - just read this article: http://www.indiaexpress.com/news/national/kargil/19990706-2.html

According to India Express, viewing of foreign media has been banned in Pakistan - Pakistanis can watch CNN, BBC, Star etc. even today- Is that not foreign media?

Re: Studebaker

`` Mr.Iconoclast,how dare you barge in like a BULL claiming to be Muslim. ``

-- yeah, right, i barged in and u tip toed like a cat. c`mon.

``(Icanoclast cant be muslim)``

-- while Studebaker can ...

`` You may be in India & what you know Jinnah is a Indian version, ``

-- i do know that he was not a practising muslim, ate pork and drank liquor but was against his daugter marrying a parsi...that man is a complete sell out. But then i don`t think Gandhi or Nehru or Patel are any better too.

`` How do i know?I was born in India Studied & married there. ``

-- if you were discriminated so much in India , i do wonder how you managed to get a comfortable life abroad without the basic education you got in india. Your actions at best could be ungrateful. You are developing a hatred against the country based on the actions of a few Hindu fundamentalists. Remember that these fanatic hindus are at best a subset of the Hindus in India and the majority of Indian Hindus are for secularism since they themselves are no monolithic sect. A tamil hindu would identify more with a tamil muslim and vice versa than with a UP hindu. This is the essence of Indian secularism and pluralism...

`` Dont give me that sellout story of Premji being Muslim Indian& representative of Muslim India as every one know of. ``

-- It is a pointer to what you could have become too, if only you had the same ability as Azimji. (whether or not you/i are muslim). Dig that ?

`` Every statics since partition has consistently shown downward trend in Indian Muslims enrolment in Univ.,Govt.Jobs,Professional colleges, ``

-- True, the fact that these statistics are published by itself shows the democratic nature of India. If only my fellow muslims (the majority are neo-converts from poorer strata and hence are only unemployed hindus becoming unemployed muslims) take up education and try to succeed we would be in better shape.

`` As far as wealth is concerned due to dispropotionately high unemployment among Indian Muslim,particularly urdu speaking PRCAPITA is below national average .``

-- read the above reply. The well to do muslims / or the educated muslims of the 60s are still the educated muslims of the 90s too. This atleast points to the fact that there are no downward trend . lies , damned lies and statistics -- read that somewhere ?

`` I was the one of the best among Indian Scholars in my school & colleges but still ,me could not secure a job for myself ``

-- what did you expect ? that the govt would give a job on a platter for u just because you are the best and you are a muslim. There are scores of Hindus, christians, muslims who go without jobs in India inspite of being good, and that is because of the economic scenario.

`` what can a high school or intermediate average muslim student in India can hope for,Nothing,nothing,nothing. ``

-- the same holds good for hindus or christians or jains too.

`` I know muslim in Gujrat enter there fathers business early and dont face the competition against brahmin &Dalits for limited seats in every college or employment.``

-- the same holds good for hindus or christians or jains too.

`` Independence govt has PURPOSELLY kept them bogged down in Babri,if not then in Shah Bano,or Kashmir. ``

-- what are you talking here. ? with such clarity of thought, i am amazed .........

``You talk about freedom even now when i return to visit my family i am singled out by my Muslim name which i foolishly reserved my berth on And stripped searched in between Delhi & Lucknow after i had paper to prove of having custom cleared from Airport! ``:

-- this is just your word against mine. I don`t face this problem even though i am muslim and indian and even though i speak a smattering of Hindi.

`` I can live easily in India under RAKESH,RAJU, i know the right customs,language,dress,religion to fool any hindu,but that is not how i wanted to live,for i wpould know what will happen as soon as they know who i was!``

-- the same holds good for me too.

``If you give individual Premji s example please note combined values of each of the Familys of tata,Birla,dalmia,are in billion dollars but they divide it among there 100 sons grand & grand grand sons & daughters as is common among joint family tradition of Hindu bania.``

-- nonsense, Azimji did not inherit any wealth he worked for it honestly... and being a Muslim he did not face any discrimination.

-- a white cannot be converted into a black ... and hence a poor white cannot become a poor black... for you to show screwed up statistics.

`` No doubt in there heart KASHMIRI MUSLIMS seeing what happens in the hand of India,wishes they were not Indian even though they might not like Pakistan either! ``

-- lets assume that you are not fortunate enough to live abroad and have to live in India. Then you want the Kashmiris to have their independence because they live in a Muslim majority state. Granted they become a islamic independant country. Would you still think you can live in India as a secular country after this ? what would be the state of the country if the Hindus unite as one masse and remove india`s secularism. Would you relish the prospect of being converted into a Hindu ? Well I don`t , for me secularism in India is my bread and butter. And i would defend it

``I dont hate any Indian more than an Indian muslim who would sell out another ethnic muslims for Indian govt knows very well to play Kerala muslim against U P bihar or Gujrati muslim against South or Andhra! ``

-- Why would you hate anyone at all ?

-- I for one don`t have anything against any Pakistani or other Muslim or not. To each his own. But as an Indian Muslim, I don`t want a non Indian Muslim to shed crocodile tears for us. We chose our bed, and we will sleep in it. And if someone has a problem with us being comfortable with being both an Indian and a muslim, this is all i have to say....go get a life

This is not to say that we don`t have problems. Yes we do have problems for being a Muslim in India.. but then we also know that we face the same problems a christian faces in parts of India or even a Hindu faces in parts of India, or what a Tamilian faces in the North or a Bihari faces in Karnataka . The issue of being a Muslim in India has contrary to popular belief in Pakistan , no shame value in India. We live by our culture within the umbrella of a rather tenuous secularism. And we don`t want to claim that we are better of in Pakistan, just that we are happy being whom we are. If Studebaker is not that is his problem....just shows how ungrateful he is with his mother country ....it is people like him who give the Indian Muslims shame not us

Iconoclast

re: StudeBaker
Your religious biases knows no bounds.

You say, ``If you give individual Premji s example please note combined values of each of the Familys of tata,Birla,dalmia,are in billion dollars but they divide it among there 100 sons grand & grand grand sons & daughters as is common among joint family tradition of Hindu bania.``

So even the family structure which most Indians follow is also a social disease from the `Hindus`. Have you ever wondered how Muslim banias or businesses run ?
Your facts about those family assets are wrong anyway. The same articles that point to Azim Premji as the richest Indian also explain the other `families`. The fact that Indian business, in general, is family owned rather that publicly held is the fault of the Hindu.

And TATA`s, WADIAs are Parsees unko to chor do. (Damn it !! how did they escape the Hindu persecution.)

Elsewhere you talk of Urdu speaking Muslims showing downward trends in per capita income, education, etc. Have you cared to find out about trends in those areas (UP,Bihar) of everybody else. You will get your answers. How typically bigotted of you to count only Muslims ?
The population of these states is burgeoning while literacy rates are going down wagera wagera...

You talk of Indian Muslims before and after the Raj. Have you factored in all the educated Muslim elite who migrated to Pakistan ?

You seem to be confused between your ethnic identiy (linguistic state/region) and your religious identity. That aside, what is your argument - that India is not a secular country or that you have faced religious persecution on a personal level.

Lastly, Do you know what Lashkar-i-Tayyiba ( your Mujahideen heroes !!) stands for !!!! If you don`t, you ought to find out.

As an aside, just curios about your pseudonym. What does StudeBaker mean ?

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re:remax & vy

Count me in too.....!!!!

Long live Pakistan!

And down with all those who just know how to degrade it and try to deny it!

A great article, it will go well with this beauty from a pak newspaper.

Why Nawaz-Clinton meeting was held in haste

By Azim M Mian

NEW YORK: The haste in which Nawaz-Clinton meeting took place in Washington, is being explained by some US sources that India had planned a major military offensive against diplomatically ``isolated`` Pakistan.

According to these credible sources, the US warned India to desist from any such offensive and allow 72 hours to the US to work out any solution to the problem.

The US had also warned India that if any such Indian offensive is launched against Pakistan, the US will take punitive measures against India since Pakistan is considered as an old ally of the United States.

The US Administration at the highest level had also asked India to inform Washington at least 48 hours if and when India plans any such attack, these sources insist.

This situation is the reason the US President spent three hours of his time on a national holiday and personally supervised the drafting of 18-line ``Pak-US statement`` on July 4, these sources say. ``This joint

statement`` has averted the full-scale war between India and Pakistan, the US sources claimed. Clinton-Nawaz meeting was set up by those Pakistani and American friends, who had the privileged information about the Indian plans to attack Pakistan and wanted to avert it at any cost, they said.

The statement is a mixed bag of carrots and sticks. Pakistan has averted the war, after India has spent billions of its resources on mobilisation and deployment of its army on the borders. But Pakistan has also taken the responsibility of withdrawal of Mujahideen from Kargil and Drass. Now this is a commitment to the US made by Pakistan, it will have to

happen, while the Nawaz government will have to bear its brunt at the domestic front.

When a US official was asked about the US understanding of the wordings of the statement concerning the Line of Control as per the Simla Agreement, he agreed that the statement is clearly recognising the fact that any alteration of the Line of Control in the post-Simla period is not recognised. India has occupied certain areas by altering LoC through the use of military force after the Simla Agreement was signed.

Re : VY

I`l be with you .. Pakistan is the best .. A great opinion from you after all these ABCD`s ..