Falsehoods Galore

Bangladesh relives the horror of 1971 war after mass grave find

DHAKA, Aug 15 (AFP) - Nearly three decades after its independence war, Bangladesh has been given a grisly reminder of a massacre of its people carried out by Pakistani troops and their

Bangladeshi collaborators.

Since the discovery of a previously unknown mass grave on July 27, hordes of people, including writers, television and film stars, students and relatives of the dead, have crowded the muddy site

in Mirpur.

Bangladesh`s leading poet Shamsur Rahman said after visiting the grave: ``These people who committed the murders did not have a heart nor any humanity in them.

``I think some of the killers are still here and if found and pressed, a lot can emerge about the atrocities carried out in this area.``

Home Minister Mohammad Nasim, speaking to local residents Friday, said ``they (Pakistanis) and their local collaborators surpassed all records of brutality.

``The killers of 1971 must be tried,`` he declared, echoing a popular demand by war veterans, victims` families and cultural groups.

Bangladesh, then known as East Pakistan, became independent after a nine-month war in 1971.

After the latest find, a fact-finding committee led by M.A. Hassan, a doctor and war veteran, contacted the International Court of Justice in the Hague and prepared a draft case.

``I don`t want a trial of the Pakistanis as they are not here, but of those, the collaborators ... who helped in the genocide,``

local resident Mithun said. The discovery of more mass graves dating from the war was likely,

sources said.

Witnesses to mass executions have guided investigators to possible sites of further graves, but most were scared to go public, possibly because the area was still dominated by Urdu-speaking Biharis, officials said.

Biharis migrated to the area after the 1947 partition of the Indian sub-continent. They were against Bangladesh`s independence and refused to accept Bangladeshi citizenship.

Hasan said a forensic study of remains found in the grave showed some were beheaded or chopped to pieces, while others were tortured and shot.

Witness Fakir Shahabuddin said he identified at least seven ``large`` mass graves in Mirpur soon after independence.

``Bengalis have collected 1,000 scattered skulls from some parts of Mirpur and gave them to the government,`` he said.

The Museum and a War Crimes Fact-finding Committee led by Hasan have appealed to witnesses to come forward and a map was being prepared on the basis of eyewitness reports.

Army Chief Lieutenant General M. Mustafizur Rahman, a decorated war veteran, sent in his troops last week to help in the digging.

``It is our first such experience,`` said one trooper, as he worked along with labourers in the muddy 15-foot deep grave, with monsoon

rains making conditions difficult.

``More remains are almost a certain after we go deeper ... the area around the well was a swamp, which was filled up later,`` one official said.

By Friday, parts of weapons and ammunitions from the dig marked POF or ``Pakistan Ordinance Factory`` had been found at the site, along with six skulls and some 800 bones -- the remains of 20 people.

The grave, a deep sealed well, came to light after workers building an extension to a mosque discovered skulls and bones. The Museum declared it a war grave more than a week ago.

The Mirpur and Mohammadpur areas were under the control of Pakistani collaborators until the end of January, 1972 -- 45 days after the war ended on December 16, 1971.

A number of mass graves have been found in Mirpur and the surrounding area since. Three million people died in the nine-month war.

Re: mitr, Reply #113

As per the history books, the name `Pakistan` was

given by a fundamentalist muslim ideologue, Rehamat Ali. He was probably the first exponent

of a separate state for the Indian muslims. The

name had nothing to do with the provinces that now make up Pakistan. For, according to Rehmat Ali,

all the provinces, and even districts, with muslim majority would constitute Pakistan. So, the parts of supposed new state would be littered all over

the British India. Rehmat Ali was too militant for the likes of Iqbal and Jinnah and, was dejected and disappointed and exiled himself in England. However, Jinnah and the Muslim League did follow R. Ali`s lead in naming the muslim nation as Pakistan. Even then Jinnah had no idea which provinces actually will end up in Pakistan. BTW,

NWFP was never considered as Afghanistan, or vice versa. And what about Bengal? Muslim League was claiming the whole of Bengal as a part of Pakistan. Pakistan meant land of pure or pure land to Rehmat Ali as he was a staunch religious believer, and in Islam evertyhing unIslamic, by definition,is impure.

Lest people have forgotten, let me remind you that the name PAKISTAN was mnemonically formed from the names of Muslim majority areas of the north-west: Punjab; Afghania (NWF); Kashmir; Sind; and BaluchisTAN.

Reference: Studies in Islamic Culture in the Indian Environment, by Aziz Ahmad, OUP, New Delhi, 1999 (first published in 1964).

Of course, once formed, the name PAKISTAN was perhaps popularly seen as signifying the land of the pure. But one could take an Islamic (or any other religious) line on this matter and see the idea of one nation or one people as being PURE, as somewhat arrogant and heretical.

Every BODY has to be a Pakistan. That nation, of MAN, is PAKISTAN.

Like every BODY has to be YODHA, and that city, of MAN, is AYODHYA.

In 1946, before the Mulsim League`s Direct Action Day, 16 Augsut 1946, a slogan had fired the imagination of Muslims in Calcutta, so much so that even Hindus had it on their minds:

Haath mein bidi

Mooh mein paan

Ladkey lengey Pakistan!

Today it is time to sing:

Liye haath mein laathi muh mein Ram

Laana hey woh Pakistan

Sangh hai saathii to hoga hi kaam

Layengey woh Pakistan

(``Let no one commit the mistake of thinking that Ramrajya means a rule of the Hindus. My Ram is another name for Khuda or God. I want Khuda Raj, which is the same thing as the Kingdom of God on Earth.``

Mahatma Gandhi

26 February 1947)

Thanks,

mitr

Dear Ms. Khan

I am really amazed to find such an article written by a Pakistani woman. It really takes a lot of guts and moral courage to voice a point of view which is totally opposite to what many Pakistanis feel about Kashmir and India.

I hope you do not get any threats of violence from your compatriots.

Frankly speaking, you are the very first Pakistani I have come across who has appreciated the democratic norms of India and its position on Kashmir.

well folks!!!!

it has been nice reading reactions to this article. However below the belt personal attacks by some readers did leave a bad taste but on the whole the standard of debate was amazing.

Let me reassert-- I am a loyal, citizen of Pakistan, more loyal than any hothead --and am based in Pakistan not in US. In case Folks like omar1974 and others of his ilk would rather continue to believe ISPR and Tariq Altaf then so be it, but I for one would like to retain my objectivity.

Another point -- An article for me takes months of effort, often material has to be collected from different sources (essays, rough drafts etc )lying here and there on my harddisk. To debunk all I have so painstakingly collected, thru a direct personal attack without any substantive arguments, would not in the slightest weaken my resolve.

Consider this :

I know some strengths of my nation.

I know some shortcomings.

What I prefer to talk about in my articles should be my business -- or should I necessarily adopt an ``even handed approach`` each time I write about Pakistan.

For glowing tributes to the ``land of the pure`` the spin doctors are doing a very good job.

And yes -- my real name is Fauziya Khan.

Thanx all.

The question decent Indian Hindus who are concerned about the future must consider is: after having driven out the enemy intruder from the heights of Kargil, are we ready to admit the Muslim Indian citizen into the depths of our soul? In this regard, the recent riots in Ahmedabad cast a pall of gloom.

Dear God, lead us kindly to light.

mitr

Studebaker:

Thanks for your kind comments. I hope we can keep interacting from time to time.

Truth:

I don`t think we have a difference in perception. What I was talking about (inclusing rakhi) was purely inner world sensibility. Trying to externalise this may also indicate one`s residual covetousness, which can only bring negative outcomes. I must also appreciate your insightful comment regarding Mr Jinnah`s marginalisation of the genuine religious element - and we can all see the consequences. My comment about him was only in terms of his secular-rational-honest bearing, compared to Nehru.

Iconoclast:

I would value your responses to my submission.

Let us all pray, with much compassion, for our friend Omar. The energy and dynamism in him is a blessing, that is seraching for direction.

Thanks,

mitr

Re: Omar

Why do you always have to stoop to vulgarity when you criticise someone ? Is it because you lack the intelligence to argue something decently or is it because the truth hurts so much that it stirs the vitriol in you ?

iconoclast

Re: Omar

Mr. Omar, you lack the aptitude to counter points raised in the articles and invariably switch to personal attacks on the authors. You need to rethink your position here. The articles are not about the authors, they are about issues and topics independent of the authors for intelligent people to argue and discuss. Why do you always come up empty when it comes to intelligent counterpoints but have mouthfuls of expletives and personal attacks that are completely in bad taste. You have not shown any ability to argue or discuss about the relevant topics, but rather show a heightened and juvenile ability to throw in tangential prose punctuated with personal attacks and expletives. One thing I must give to you is that you do single handedly make up the comedy aspect, which is an amusing side show to most of these discussions.

I wouldn`t in the least be surprised if this so-called Fauzia Khan who lives in a fabled `pluralistic India` free from communal tension is in fact a Hindu who has adopted a muslim pseudonyn. It seems `Fauzia,` has a thing against Pakistan, which is very obvious. Perhaps its sour grapes which is the problems of `multiethnic` India that are really `her` problem in life. `Fauzia` definitely has a bee up her arse, and it has nothing at all to do with Pakistan, it has much more to do with, `her` dissatisfaction with her idealist India, which no independent observer would characterize as a society on the same par in any way as the U.S. Perhaps this article is really a sad and miserable attempt by `Fauzia` to counter the piece on the reality of the conditions of Indian Muslims presented on Chowk about 2 months or so ago, by labeling Pakistan as `intolerant` etc. I think it appropriate to remind, `Fauzia` that Muslims were at the bottom of ladder economically in British pre-partition India. We in Pakistan are much better off than we would have been living as mere Hindu slaves, unlike you `Fauzia`. That is the life your family (if you really are `Fauzia Khan`) appears to have chosen. Compromise is for the weak. Especially when it comes to identity. The author clearly has low self esteem, and a bit of a problem dealing with the not so glorious record of her own country, India. I find it interesting that you repeat Hindu propaganda claims about Pakistan verbatim. This stems from your basic attempt to try to become a `loyal` citizen of India, and your desire to demonstrate your loyalty to India. But the mere fact Fauzia that you have to do something (feel the need to prove your loyalty) in order to do this demonstrates that you yourself are well aware of the unequal status of muslims in India. I note that only perhaps 1 or 2%% of the Indians studying in the U.S are muslims. The reason being that they as a community are not doing too well overall in India, i`m sure there are exceptions, perhaps your family is one. Perhaps that is why you feel constrained to strive to `prove` the superiority of Indian society by running down Pakistan. Listen `babe` when it comes right down to it religion is what sets you apart from the rest in India, whether you care to admit it or not. And you know this well enough. There is a lot of religious discrimination in India against muslims. This article is really your cry/plea for help. If this drivel represents the level of your intellectual output I feel sorry for you. My advice, if you wanna become a real Indian, convert to Hinduism. Best thing for you really Fauzia. Get it over with now, don`t spend a life TRYING so desperately to be accepted, do what you know is necessary, (RE?)CONVERT to Hinduism. You`ll be much happier kiddo.

cheers,

Omar

Hi Studebaker:

You misunderstood my comment regarding the raakhi. I thought that reference may be annoying to Pakistanis since it implied India as a ``protector`` of Pakistan. As Pakistan is a proud and independent country, I thought that symbolism would be offensive to Pakistanis. But certainly, if the symbolism is one of friendship between two countries and even further, if Pakistan wanted to sign a defense pact with India, how can I object?

The title of the article ironically enough is appropriate, for it is a clearly biased attempt to spread factually incorrect information, a.k.a falsehoods galore, which is contains, and little else, in the most partisan propaganda manner

possible. There are several outright lies contained in the piece. Only about 5% of the facts stated herein are correct. Even simple things like the pre-partition mullahs being AGAINST the creation of Pakistan have not been related correctly, because of course they don`t fit into the pre-determined paradigm set out by the author. All manner of truth is completely disregarded by this piece. I`m surprised that Chowk would publish such blatant pathetic lies.

Omar

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Hassann:

When was the last time you were in India? What is the basis of your comments about ``institutionalized`` problems. DO you mean innstitutionalized in the culture? I fail to see the difference between that and your self-admitted problems of poverty and ignorance. If you visited India, did you see any signs for optimism?

So you walked through death and destruction to get to Pakistan. What about my mother who had to leave her home in Lahore? Suffering was on all sides. I`m glad you`re happy in Pakistan. Maybe you`re better off there than you would have been in India. What about the problems that the creation of Pakistan has created for Indian Muslims? Do they figure in your thoughts? Or is the ultimate test, is hassann better off? Treading over paths that have been gone over many times. I suppose we will remain on opposite sides of this issue forever.

If Pakistan has friends like Ms. Fauzya Khan, then I believe Pakistan does not need any enemies.

I have read and met a large number of Pakistanis who will talk bad and trash Pakistan in every writing on occasion. I have lived in Pakistan for years and visited India at least dozen times. I respect human dignity and have friends of all religions.

In Pakistan there is a poverty and corruption. But it is not institutionalized. How would Ms. Fauzya feel if she was born in scheduled caste or as untouchable. She has to go and live in India for some time to experience the prejudice. However, I would agree that highly educated liberal indians are decent people. But they are very few. Visiting India and living in a five star hotel and meeting only elite group will not tell the whole story.

Finally, let me give example of millions of refugees who like my family came from India. we passed through an ocean of death and destruction and started our lives at ground zero in Pakistan. For millions of us Pakistan has been a great blessing. We have achieved the highest education and have great careers. I sincerely believe that it would not have been possible in India where the Hindus even discriminate strongly against low caste Hindus.

Mitr:

Although your idealistic approach is commendable, I think it has one failure. Any social system must incorporate the existence of evil in the development of policy. There is also the possibility of mass evil where a whole society goes amok. This has happened in our own country at various times. So one has to get off the mountain even when one is going through an internal self-realization.

Second, your brother-sister analogy of India-Pakistan is annoying. If a single adult is interacting with six adults, the single adult is still an equal of the other six. Pakistan is an adult, India is an adult. We can deal with Pakistan on the principle of equality. I remain a detester of the two-nation theory but water has flown under the bridge and I will deal with Pakistan on the basis that differing people can talk. I have high regard for a lot of features of Islam and I`m more in the camp of conservative Muslims rather than Jinnah. Many ``secularists`` blinded by European nation-state concepts (eg Jinnah) overrode the genuinely pan-humanity concepts of conservative religious theologists.

communication continued:

Now, when this has lead to continuing animosity, it is time for civilised, enlightened people to stand apart, to think anew, and to help their people move along the road of conciliation and cooperation. We all should have had enough of being justified, though not being just. Let us try to be just, rather than justifying.

There was a serious, history-created problem, that was not satisfactorily solved before, through or after partition. Maybe the time was not right, we needed to learn a lot first, there was too much greed for power. Let us now become greedy for peace, cooperation and development. Let us jointly be greedy for justice, dignity and better living for all our down-trodden people. People view the world in static and finite terms. A nation has to be a living thing, an evolving thing. What we are going through is not something primitive compared to someone else`s advanced situation. We are going through a unique local experience, with global, historic and civilisational significance. I am sure it is possible to be two independent countries, similar but yet very different, working together, for regional peace and prosperity, and together producing some of the finest children of Mother Earth.

The federal governments of India and Pakistan exist only in air, to engorge themselves on people and places, and to allow one another to continue to do so. At the very heart of the problem in the subcontinent is that of popular empowerment, decentralised, accountable governance and a political system or structure that is orientated to this, rather than being a parasitically top-heavy, axiomatically assumed entity. And decentralised governance is ultimately about swaraj - or self-rule, beginning with rule over one`s own self. It is my conviction that this region shall yet provide the world an answer to the as yet unaddressed question of what governance really is.

In short, peace in the region can only be attained when an overwhelming majority of the people of India and Pakistan become better human beings than they presently are. Everybody has to realise that everything surrounding us is distorted, we are all ethically compromised, socially, economically. Unless an overwhelming majority of the people of our two countries believe in and directly or indirectly help to bring in and sustain socio-economic empowerment of those presently disprivileged, nobody can live in genuine peace.

For me Pakistan has a distinct cultural identity, that most of its people already had from the past, from the people`s roots in the land and the culture(even in present day Pakistan itself). This is a most wonderful identity, plural and multi-ethnic, a beautiful face of South Asian Islam, respectful to all faiths, and exalting a unique sensibility that is both Islamic and also derived from this land of cultural dynamism. But that is a perception based on the identity of real PEOPLE, rather than a handful of not very noble people. In both countries, several generations of people have grown, who could be said to be the finest sons of the land. Endowed with the best of everything, supremely capable and creative. But such people have in the main never directly participated in political and social action.

Some of us have had the good fortune to have glimpsed or even be groomed by giants - of character, effort, wisdom etc. We can see what cretin times we have fallen into. It is upon those of us who still have the faculty of awe and reverence to restore to its proper place the heritage of our land.

Hindus and Indians have to learn to accept that Pakistan is the motherland for its citizens, equally full of a promise of a future that brings justice, dignity, and prosperity. Indians have to examine their feelings for their own country and think of Pakistanis as also entitled to feel for their country.

The people of India are bound together emotionally, culturally and spiritually. This is something cutting across language, class, caste, religion, region. This is something that happens without any reference to Pakistan. It happens only through growing up, living, studying, quarrelling, joking, teasing, singing, working, worshipping together. And in diversity, every dog has his day. Three decades ago, e.g. Bengalis would ridicule South Indians, saying illay-po, sapad illay (no-go, no food, in Tamil). Today, they play AR Rahman`s Tamil songs at home, learn these songs phonetically, and for their children these songs and language sounds become part of their aural universe. Even as south Indians learn Rabindra Sangeet. Even as politicians expostulate about language policy and analysts write about North-South divides, millions of Indians know 3-5 languages very well (each one very different from the other). South Indians become popular Urdu ghazal singers even as the north kills Urdu through neglect; Punjabi Sikhs help to revive interest in Bengali devotional music; a Mumtaz Ali of Madanapalli, or a Abdul Rashid Ismail Sheikh of Baroda, know more about Hindu scriptures than most Hindus ... and one could go on and on. Through pluralism, all, and everyone`s heritage, are made safer, because you also have many other guys working for it.

This enchanted forest:

Culture is divinity impregnated into earth.

Pakistanis, more than people of any other country, could appreciate this quality in India, share it, be thrilled by it. Amidst all the rot over fifty years, much has been happening that is also wonderful news. This has been in the realm of culture, through sheer intercourse amidst diversity. The next millenium shall surely see the fruit of this process of cultivation. I have no doubts that the same could be said about Pakistan.

It is because Hindus and Muslims are different from one another that there is so much of energy and joy in coming together. It is because India and Pakistan are two different countries that there can be much excitement in knowing one another. Difference can also be the source of much positive energy. Long live diversity, and long live the embrace.

Muslims can become strengthened in their religious faith and spiritual quest through interaction with other faiths. Hindu`s can be helped to understand their religion, perhaps for the first time, through exposure to and interaction with Muslims. And all together can help to make this subcontinent a land of dharam aur mazhab, the world`s kindergarten and manufactory of the higher life. Have people forgotten that Swami Vivekananda`s highest prayer for the good of the Motherland was that she might make manifest the two-fold ideal of an Islamic body and a Vedantic heart? He had even imagined a national genius that decreed the birth of Indian sovereigns to be of a Hindu mother and a Muslim father. What does this mean? He kept talking about an aggressive, vigorous Hindu faith, but personally had only warm and tender feelings, for Islam and for Muslims.

More than fifty years ago, a scholar called Kshiti Mohan Sen wrote a book in Bengali called Bharatbarshey Hindu Musholmaaner Jukto Sadhona. It is very difficult to translate this into English (the word sadhana does not have an exact English equivalent). But it means something like Joint Ventures in Spiritual Seeking by Hindus and Muslims in India.

I wonder how many Pakistanis are aware of the name and work of Dr Akhter Ahsan, the psychotherapist. He uses Islamic and Hindu spiritual and mythic traditions to heal people. For me his work signifies something awesome, in terms of explicating connections, at a deep subterranean level within the consciousness of our people. The consequences of this is far more powerful than the two countries` nuclear tests.

Verdure

as the ichor of love and devotion

flows once again

through the thirsty capillaries

beneath earth`s parched crust

that run through the petrified hearts of men

but in whose depths

swirl

the cool sweet waters

of meek humanity.

There is so much one would like to share fraternally about the subcontinent. Think about the sensibility humble East Bengali (Bangladeshi) Muslim - fed by that magic soil, its powerful folk culture, nurtured through Buddhism, host to a bardic tradition; Bengal was washed by such waves. Bangladesh is for me a very enchanted and blessed place. I like to think that in this verdant land is to be found a sensibility, among some people, that is perhaps most endearing to our beloved Prophet (ppuh); this was the image he had of Muslim. And there is something about that soil and air, its history and culture, all that is to be found there, that produces this sensibility. Bangladesh is surely the fair jewel on the crown that the subcontinent is on the world`s head.

Or the Tamil Muslims - again fed by another magic soil, nurtured within the culture of the most ancient inhabitants of this land, also endowed with an ancient bardic tradition, and a social justice consciousness rooted in Hindu mystic devotion.

Both regions also home to Tantra. That has also made for a rich mystic stream within local Islam, there to feed hungry seekers of all faiths, even as it is degraded in the Hindu environment. So that a seeking Hindu can get it from a Muslim who has been conserving it anyhow. Indian Muslims can understand their own religion and culture for themselves by seeing the devotion and cultural expressions of other Indian Muslims. And the consciousness of genuinely learning people would then simply explode when culture and scripture are sought to be personally understood, through the light of personal experience.

The biggest mystery and tragedy is the apparent lack of relation now between Islam and Buddhism. Many, many years ago, these two forces had many mutually enriching dialogues and embraces, through their mystics. Few people know that now. Image worship comes from Buddhism. Not a God in a stone idol, but an exquisite figure to evoke remembrance, through feeling, of a wonderful, compassionate, wise, enlightened teacher, who was revered and adored through devotion, and from whose teachings inspiration and solace was sought, which one tried to follow within one`s daily life situation howsoever well one could. And thus try to become that image. But to see all this you need to love people; with the eyes of love you can see so many things that our normal vision does not perceive.

The world knows Lord Buddha to be the greatest teacher, and one of the most elevated beings to have walked this earth. But it is largely outside his own land - India-Pakistan - that he is revered. How could Indians and Pakistanis forsake such a one? Do Pakistanis and Muslims not care to know Lord Buddha? And who loses? There is so much work to be done, in education, communication, translation, explanation. Similarly, I feel that much could be done to educate people in India about Islam, acquaint them with the life of Prophet Mohammed (ppuh); I myself have felt cheated to be denied this. Because there is still a very solid barrier between Hindus and Muslims in India today, someone of my background does not pick up powerful Islamic elements from the air and life around them in the same way that they do of other religions.

But I can also accept that this barrier exists only so as to enable that powerful energy - from individual through to social levels - of the subsequent eager embrace. Strange are the ways of God, sab unki lila hai.

Hindus need to think about how they appeared and still appear to foreigners - full of rich temples, but the masses steeped in ignorance, poverty and disprivilege. Lord Buddha was a fierce critic of Hindu caste inequity, and the fallen, corrupted state of Brahmins, and openly admitted even `untouchables` into the sangha, in defiance of public and royal opinion. He let the superior spiritual accomplishments of such members of the order by itself demolish any objections that were raised.

Why did the embrace of Islam happen? Hindus are only too aware of invasion, pillage and conversion by the sword. Islam also swept through this region, with the force of love, and the promise of egalitarianism and social justice. Its as if the older Hindu and Buddhist religions laid the foundation, or ran the earlier laps, for the final sprinter, the best, strongest runner, to now vindicate. And perhaps we shall keep on producing the raw materials for making good Muslims. Maybe at some time, Muslim families will consciously seek Hindu daughters-in-law, and the favourite son in a Hindu family becomes a Muslim.

Just this in fact happens, has been happening for centuries. E.g. among the bauls and patuas of Bengal (wandering ministrels and scroll painter-singers, respectively). They are both Hindus as well as Muslim. Families have different members belonging to one or the other faith. Names within a family would include, for instance, Vishnu and Rahim. And through it all, continuing to communicate to those who wish to hear, some deep truths, another consciousness.

But of course many Hindus and Muslims will see such people as profane, heretical and so on. That is their view, to which they are entitled. But can anyone stop those people from living as their heart impells them to?

But at the same time, this ancient, sleeping Hindu religion is also awakening. What you see, the ugly face of Hindutva, is only the surface indication of an underlying volition that would be magnificiently elevating. For too long have the challenges of social justice, dignity, and opportunity to all been fermenting inside the Hindu consciousness. Lord Buddha began giving the dhakka to Hindus 2500 years ago, and moulded it into a civilising force. Islam is giving the dhakka, and danda, which is also needed for the upliftment of this supine race, to mould it into a living force for the future.

It is my dream to get the Holy Quran translated into Sanskrit. I think that is an event that would have stupendous consequences. Though Sanskrit is dead, it remains alive through many of the most commonly spoken Indian languages. Anyone who speaks any of these languages is implicitly connected to Sanskrit, its aural power and resonance, and its sacred words and phrases - which may even be picked up through one`s everyday life. Indian Muslims, while sharing the linguistic and hence aural universe of Hindus, are denied the opportunity to share and experience the mantric quality of ordinary words - that enables one to see the divine amidst the profane - because their own holy scripture is in Arabic. With this being available in Sanskrit, and successive generations of Muslims growing up reading the Holy Quran in Sanskrit, the question of the Muslim presence in India would be finally settled. India would then be a natural habitat for them. Do you see why the so-called untouchables were denied any access to Sanskrit scriptures? Its like denying people awareness of God, since God is the ultimate empowerer. But thankfully this never worked. Some of the greatest men of God of this land came from the most humble - Kabir, Tukaram, Ravidas come immediately to mind. And even these three words, the three names, are deeply meaningful words for many in India today.

Swadhyaya:

Swadhyaya is the name of a socio-spiritual people`s movement in western-northern India. Swadhyaya means self-learning - learning about yourself, learning by yourself, through life, that is what life is. This was started over forty years ago, by Dadaji, Pandurang Shastri Atavale (currently lives in Mumbai). This has been a movement empowering dalit fishermen and peasants in western India with self-respect, dignity, harmony, education, service, economic well-being, devotion - and the wealth of Sanskrit scripture. Hundreds of thousands of villages are in effect self-governed by the local communities, with their own means of wealth redistribution, social infrastructure, resource generation etc. They say to the government, we have no needs, we have everything, we have no need of you.

Perceptions:

Some Hindus wonder: do refined Pakistani or Indian Muslims really think Hindus worship stone gods? You think we are crazy? Would you? Then would we? So what is it that we do? Try and understand, try to learn. Do you have a notion of THAT, towards which Islam is the most direct, straight-forward path?

Many Indian Hindus think that Pakistanis and Muslims are crazy, fanatical, irrational, barbaric, murderous hordes.

Yes, a lot of Hindus in India could be called irrational, superstitious, seriously deluded. But such people are also among Muslims in India and in Pakistan. That is a social problem, of evolution of the mind and consciousness of people, from darkness to light, to be found within followers of all religions, and not just in the southern hemisphere alone. Grace is that even amidst this ignorance, there shines the light of pure sensibility, manifest in meek adoration and worship, and then one begins to understand the mystic channels of transmission and means of conservation of sensibility from this very base ground. This subcontinental land has for centuries and millenia been at the process of distilling this higher sensibility out of base flesh. Since Islam came to this soil, its best players joined in this wonderful trans-historical sensibility conservation, sensibility development, and sensibility transmission game. And all together have been succeeding. And are still doing it. One can only be in awe of what this soil is all about. Ultimately what this soil tells you, very powerfully, is this: just be a simple loving being, that`s all.

Empty playing field:

There are millions of peace and development seeking persons in India and Pakistan. Unfortunately, this section is largely invisible, silent, in terms of what is disseminated across the border. Kargil could yet turn out to be a historic opportunity for this section to assert itself once and for all, marginalising the politicians, hawks, strategists etc. Such people now have to see their country as being represented by themselves, and themselves as representing their country. We have to empty our minds of deference to those who turn out to be only scum. Elevate ourselves. And take responsibility. With accountability. Pakistan and India will be no more, or no less, than what their own best people choose to be and do.



In Bengali there is an expression: phanka maathey goal maara, i.e. scoring a goal in an empty field. It is because so many capable people are silent and passive, that the only ones - some goons - who do something end up defining the whole ethos. They got an empty field, and they are scoring so proficiently. So what other people, of integrity, have to do is to start playing the game that no one is playing or interested in playing. Hence that too would be played on a empty field, and goals can be scored, thus helping to build a new ethos that can eventually marginalise the negative currents, like light effaces darkness.

Making love:

Can Indians say and do things that would move and thrill Pakistanis? Can Pakistani`s warm the hearts of Indians? Can we move, shame and inspire one another with our broad-mindedness, our large heartedness, our kindness, our strength, our character, our vision, our social conscience and commitment to empowerment of the powerless? Our love?

When I saw the litany of abuse in the Chowk Forum, believe me, I laughed so much that I nearly fell off my chair. I have not laughed so much and so heartily in years. Even my neighbour came out to his window to see what the matter was. He must have thought this man has finally gone totally bonkers, sitting all alone in front of a dabba and laughing like a madman. I was laughing because I could only see this as showing the deep vein of hilarity and fun in the people. For a parent, everything a small child does is endearing.

I have just finished translating a short story from Urdu to English. The story is about the intimate friendship between a Sikh and a Muslim who were mates from their childhood in their village in (West) Punjab, and were separated by partition; most of the relationship was thereafter conducted in their imagination. When the Sikh suddenly gets a letter from Pakistan several years after having left the village home, he imagines he is telling him: ``Arrey Fazla, ovey haraam khora!`` Are not our choicest swear-words reserved for our dearest friends? When old mates meet, how do they greet one another - with choice swear-words, and by pummeling one another, right? In Hindu devotional tradition, there is also a stream that expresses adoration in negative terms, like a lover castigating the beloved. Is the atmosphere of vile abuse really one of tremendous love that has not yet learned to express itself?

Ek Arzoo

Ae fasaadiyo!

Uthao talwaar!

Kalam karo sar!

Chalao khanjar!

Cheer do seena!

Bhonk do trishul!

Nikaal lo kaleja

Aur bahaado mera khoon

Is mitti par

Takey iski har boondh sey khil uthey

Masoomiyat ki nek phaslen

Dushman-e-insaaniyat ko khilaney ke liye.

Sunehrey daano sey bhari

Baaliyon ke yeh samundar,

Amar prem ke narm hawa mein

Leheratey, tadaptey,

Bhaichaargi, khushali

Aur baahmi jashn ke

Ittehad ki aarzoo mein.

A Prayer

O Rioter !

Come, flay your sword ! Behead me !

Thrust your dagger ! Pierce my heart !

Plunge your trident ! Disembowel me !

And spill my blood upon this land,

That from every drop shall bloom

A crop of meek humanity,

Laden with golden grain,

To feed the hungry in spirit,

A sea of stalks swaying in the gentle breeze of eternal love,

Trembling with yearning for the joyous embrace

Of brotherhood, goodwill and mutual celebration.

A final word: how about thinking along the lines of the Hindu custom of tying rakhi? If India is big brother, then let Pakistan be younger sister. Maybe Pakistan should adopt the strategy of tying a rakhi on India`s wrist. By Hindu tradition, India would then be compelled, first to give her a gift to express love, and thereafter, under any circumstances, to be her dear protector.

I have gone on long enough. Must stop now. If not a dam burst, this has been a good breach. Like so many others, one has remained silent for too long, and felt and thought too many things that remained within oneself. Perhaps that has been the very cause of the dominance of baseness, and the marginalisation of the good. So I just spoke out. Thank you all, and especially brother Studebaker, for bearing with me.

Warmly,

mitr

Note: I have an extract from Mahatma Gandhi`s Hind Swaraj, about Hindu-Muslim relations, which I find very pertinent even today. If anyone is interested then I could post this. Thanks.

Re Studebaker # 92:

``? reality in itself cannot be expressed by conceptual knowledge or by written and spoken language. Only the understanding which meditation brings can help us recognise the essence of reality. ? A person who has never tasted a mango cannot know its taste no matter how many words and concepts someone else uses to describe it to him. We can only grasp reality through direct experience. Thaat is why I have often told the (monks) not to lose themselves in useless discussion that wastes precious time better spent looking deeply at things.``

Lord Buddha.

Thank you:

Studebaker, if I remember correctly from my childhood, was the name of a large car. You have named yourself quite well. You have a lot of space for people - you are indeed large-hearted - and you are also proving to be a good vehicle, for humane communication! So all strength to you brother.

Thank you for your kind interest. That has goaded me to sit down to put down the thoughts that arose in my mind through reading this discussion, as well as a lot of the other articles and discussions in chowk.



Personal experience:

My communication was an attempt at sharing a personal realisation. It was not an intellectual statement, or a piece of information, or a theory. This realisation has obviously to be seen vis-à-vis my own background and life experience, which I shall briefly summarise in order to enable people to see things objectively.

Born and grew up in a middle-class, south Indian Hindu brahmin household. An environment of learning, academic attainments, easy comfort with English language, higher education, professional qualifications and service, ethics and values, puja - but also fearful prejudices, about Muslims, lower castes. Grew up in eastern India. Educated in a boarding school in north India where I had the opportunity to grow up with boys from virtually every part of the country, and from humble as well as wealthy families, from all religions. After completing my university studies in India, opportunity to live for some years in the west and see things and feel from that vantage point; opportunity to meet and know other south Asians - Pakistanis and Bangladeshis - and realise that one`s unquestioningly believed assumptions were only partial truth; also from here, decided to work for the betterment of the living conditions of the poor and vulnerable in India.

Return home, to eastern India, in the early 1980s. Working here in an activist mode, in support of the labouring poor, while also intellectually pursuing, almost maniacally, the subject of DEVELOPMENT in all its aspects, trying to fathom and grasp the question of ALTERNATIVES, right from the epistemological to the practical level. Involvement in radical leftist politics. Exposure to various cultures and communities of India, through fluency in a number of languages (learnt by ear). Moving from atheism, to a seeking, open-minded stance. All the while, living through marriage and also doing one thing and another to gain a half-decent livelihood. Being reckless and lacking in self-control, committing various indiscretions and blunders, suffering their consequences and desiring to embrace an ethical bearing. Fatherhood, and becoming increasingly sensitised to the preciousness and vulnerability of every life. Observing the attitudes and prejudices of people all around (towards the poor, backward communities, minorities, and especially Muslims) and personally suffering this. Being personally devastated by the destruction of the Babri Masjid and the riots that followed. Personal realisations and clarities regarding indigenously rooted, environmentally sound, social development feeding economic development alternatives, and its socio-cultural ramifications, in the wake of economic liberalisation.

Travelling across vast parts of the country, into the most remote and interior places and being exposed to the reality there, and helped by circumstances to share some of the misfortunes of the have-nots - in the midst of which I first came to be embraced by the Divine. Being inspired by the life, work and thinking of an earlier generation of individuals, giants of character. Becoming aware of one`s own cultural roots and universe.

Self-realisation:

Personally seeing, first-hand, from inside the governmental system, the ugly corruption, incapability, ignorance and apathy prevailing, and the utter selfish, ignorant, contemptuous, apathy of babu-dom (my own class) about the vulnerable sections and their living reality. Immersion in a personal spiritual search and study of Scriptures, especially Islamic and Buddhist, and mystic traditions. Earnest efforts to reach out to, understand and seek communion with humble Muslims. And thus eventually to a climactic unveiling, achieving SELF REALISATION, in 1996, and hence gaining a personal sensibility through which one can see and hear things that one finds to be obscured from most people. That was only a beginning, of a new life, seeing the world completely anew, time and circumstance bringing ever more rich learning experiences.

Caste, Hindu-Muslim:

Perhaps we need to reflect on the idea of HYGIENE. Think of cleanliness-pollution etc not merely in terms of people, physical touch, food etc, but INTERNAL PURITY, rooted in A HUMBLE AND HUMANE SENSIBILITY. (A hate-filled person is a ganda aaadmi.) It was possible for me to find such internal purity, nurtured and protected by devotion to Islam, among the most poor people who were living amidst utter filth, even as I was traumatised by the mean-ness and ugliness of the posh folk of my own kind. It was also possible for me to be healed by the affection of such people. As I saw it, Islam had helped many common people of my country to remain decent even as the society around them was sinking and rotting.

I had been deeply struck by Faiz` poem Yahaan sey sheher ko dekho (read in English translation). Even the title was for me a trigger for deep realisation. I too was able to find a vantage point from where one should see the city. But while Faiz` poem is angry, bitter, sad, this vantage point in a degraded, poverty-ridden environment afforded me a view and an engagement and involvement that filled me with only gladness, purpose, humility. I have found my spot of earth to stand on.

From a social planning perspective too, it should be clear that empowerment of poor Muslims, and especially women, is among the most far-reaching and transformative social development interventions one could take up in India today.

(Speaking of hygiene, think also about the idea of hygiene in the west, something addressed by the STATE, with the help of TECHNOLOGY, and PUBLIC SYSTEMS.)

By MUSLIM, I do not mean someone who happened to be born in a particular family. For me this term refers to the ideal human type posited by Prophet Mohammed (ppuh).

As I see it, a Muslim is a gentle, fearless, self-controlled, dignified, refined, clean, healthy, ethical, moral, responsible, kind-hearted, self-sacrificing, loving, happy being. I like to think that the fifth and highest Hindu caste (of ascent of spirit, not ascribed or hereditarily acquired status) is: Muslim. As if a sort of trans-historic mobius strip forming process were in operation through time.

Viewed from within a brahminical, vedic framework also, this ideal type, of ELEVATED personality-conduct, clearly appears as the ultimate goal to attain. Islam should be seen as RELIGION, as RELIGIOSITY, hence something universal rather than partisan. Similar is the goal with other religions. For someone who lives in God, all religions are dear and precious. Though I was born a Hindu, my work now involves helping poor Muslim children to grow to be good Muslims and good citizens and community members. That for me is the best way of being a good Hindu. And I only wish others too could share my experience. Share the immense sense of belonging too, that one is only re-living the ancient edict of King Asoka (3rd century B.C.)wherein he calls for ``the essential advancement of all sects. Its basis is the control of one`s own speech, so as not to extol one`s own sect or disparage that of another. ... On each occasion one should honour another man`s sect, for by doing so one increases the influence of one`s own sect and benefits that of the other man, while by doing otherwise, one diminishes the influence of one`s own sect and harms the other man`s ... therefore concord is to be commended so that men may hear one another`s principles.``

Later, I saw similar pure sensibilities among poor Hindus as well. So it is meek religiosity per se that I look up to. But Islam is also an explicit force for social justice. When class divisions, privilege and power, a contemptuous attitude towards the poor, and cultural chauvinism become institutionalised in Islamic societies, thus begins the weakening of Islam. This young religion too has to face and overcome the trial that all of human history has succumbed to.

If one tried to define religiosity in terms of sensibilities and scanned society for these qualities, even today one would find the greatest numbers of those possessing such qualities among the poor and powerless. Throughout history, people have seen God in the poor and powerless, the oppressed. ``Blessed are the poor in spirit, for they shall inherit the earth.`` The Hindu idea of Daridra Narayan is also along these lines. But this is something that transcends circumstantial, material poverty.

It is a tale of the dynamics of power in ancient Indian society that a priestly elite abused their position to institutionalise, and that too, ironically, in the interest of social stability and sustenance, what was essentially a spiritual categorisation at one level, and an occupational division at another, into a rigid religiously sanctioned hereditary social arrangement, of differential power, and ultimately willful oppression. A clear process of social engineering, with genetic outcomes, was consciously undertaken. We have had successful, though silent Hitlers, many times over in our history.

Interestingly, if you look at the history of city planning in colonial India, so-called improvements were seen as being necessary in the light of perceived risks of being infected with diseases from the masses (labouring native folk, living in degraded slums); at the same time, there were a spate of theories about disease transmission - through the air, through water, through smells, congestion, etc. Such perceptions served to legitimise enhancing the quality of the living environment in the European quarters, through widening roads, reducing congestion, but usually by demolishing slums, filling in water-tanks in slums (without any alternative provided to slumdwellers for their water requirement) etc.

Incidentally, Mirza Ghalib was in Calcutta during 1828-29. His remembrances of Calcutta`s `cool breezes` and `pleasant water` provide a happy contrast to the stink that overwhelmed European visitors such as Rudyard Kipling.

(Some months ago I had the opportunity to visit Nablus, in Palestine, and stay with an Arab Muslim friend. Having been to Nablus, I can now begin to understand what Ghalib must have felt in Calcutta. After living in Hindu-Muslim tension in India, to be among the people here and be accepted by them with spontaneous affection was for me a supremely joyous experience. This city immediately brought to mind Aristotle`s words:

``Men come together in cities in order to live. They remain together in order to live the good life.``)

Coming down to more recent times, it may be recalled that a WHO team visited the city of Calcutta (synonymous in the west with poverty, destitution, urban horror) in the early 1960s and concluded that unless something drastic were done, the city would simply go down in epidemics like cholera. Thus began a massive long-term programme of city improvement, first with a Ford Foundation assisted planning effort and then a World Bank supported development project. And, as it turns out, even after two and a half decades of `planned development`, today, lack of access to adequate supplies of potable water and adequate sanitation, among the city`s poor, vulnerable and low-income population (about half of Calcutta`s population lives in slums) is the principal environmental problem of the city. Infant mortality rates among slumdwellers are sometimes twice, or even thrice the infant mortality rates in non-slum settlements.

I know first-hand that his is simply rooted in contempt and prejudice in individuals.

Such `modern` conditions should also therefore be related to one`s reflections about the caste system.

On the other hand, one should note the positive qualities, of sensibility, that are also embedded in the everyday living experience within a caste-based social structure. Hence: what does being a Brahmin, or a Kshatriya mean in the present context? What social role would that entail, in the light of the existing human development scenario? What does the Ramayana teach? What is the lesson of the story of the killing of Shravan Kumar, or of the prefatory tale of the hunter killing a krauncha bird and being cursed to eternal wandering? What does the entity of Hanumaan signify? What does the story of Eklavvya, in the Mahabharata, signify?

Nobody has to accept what I say, I am not engaging in an argument, only expressing my own realisation, relevant to my own life and work, which may, however, be shared with some others who are of a similar ilk. If anyone is offended by my statement, I am sorry for causing offence; I have no desire to inflict hurt on anyone. I am trying to express my inner self here, the attitude with which I try to face life.

Power and religion:

Injustice by the powerful against the weak and powerless is a crime against humanity. It is this humanity that is the sole subject matter of Religion. Its object is to help man realise Manhood, and ascend from his moorings in time and space. It feeds man`s natural, biological religiosity (read instinct for refinement, ascent). The expression of this innate religiosity is in the person`s goodness of character and conduct - something that is rarely unrecognised by ordinary people, wherever one may be in the world. Someone in this day and age may actually be very religious, in terms of his natural bent of mind and conduct to others, without considering himself religious, or even an adherent of any particular faith. In this peculiar age, one may well find among them some of the most sensitive, creative, compassionate and heroic spirits. Because formal religions have themselves come to be associated with irreligiosity. This may also be leading people to seek to invent more religions around themselves, and often failing.

But one should not confuse religion, and its practice in space-time. One should try to understand religion for oneself, in the context of one`s own inner life journey through life. Existing Scriptures, practices and customs could be one`s own guideposts, and if one is really sincere, one would try to find a capable teacher. In this light, Islam offers a path to the higher life, free of obfuscation and suspension of reason, undiluted by the distortions through time. But that assessment notwithstanding, I would still see immense value in each religion, and understand that each path can be an effective means to reach God for someone within that milieu.

Religiosity:

It is morality and religiosity as such that is besieged, by immorality, irreligiosity, irreverence, arrogance, injustice. The polarisation is between Religion and Irreligion (at the level of awareness), and between religiosity and irreligiosity (at the level of conduct).

So rather than India versus Pakistan, or Hindu versus Muslim, the us and them should be : people steeped in materialism, the pulls of flesh, dissension and violence, exploitation, ignorance, prejudice, etc; and religious people, who have attained a higher consciousness, lead a higher life, and serve to spread religiosity. Simple formulation: burey log, achchey log.

People considering themselves `Hindu` or `Muslim` in any way, should think about what that means, and whether they are really Hindu or Muslim or only coincidentally so. And if so by personal choice, then to try to seek to be a good Hindu / Muslim. If Muslims, individually, became genuine Muslims, that would be akin to a total transformation of life in this world as we know it. Just as a widespread awakening to genuine Christianity or Dharma would also bring about such a transformation. We cannot affect macro-forces and formations, but we can mould and sculpt ourselves, each one of us, individually. This would not be a dramatic thing, like a mass procession of millions on the streets, but something much simpler. One does not have to work at the logistics of mass mobilisation or terrorism, only facilitate individual awakening. The power of the inner change in each individual is far greater than that of the ephemeral and insubstantial forms such as mass rallies or violent actions.

Religiosity, in its essence - human conduct - is one, howsoever approached and practiced by the person. The genuinely faithful of different faiths have been drawn (and still are), for companionship and solace, to one another, often in a context where they find themselves without companionship from among the practitioners of their own faith. All religions are very dear to the genuinely religious personality, though he may be personally deeply aware only of his own path.

Obviously, only one who has found the light, and realised peace, can show others the light and bring them peace. Whoever he calls, he calls in the name of Godliness. His communication will always be direct and clear and never be mistaken for yet another personal vehicle in a realpolitik context. He lives his faith, and his life as transparently visible to others is his best sermon.

Is anything that happens, anywhere, contrary to God`s infinite wisdom and divine will? And can one think that one`s own will is greater than His? Acts of wanton injustice are so many calls by him to faith, purity of faith, sustenance of faith. When something goes against our wishes, we can only plumb inwards, to find there the seed of whatever external folly one discerned, the latter being only a mirror image of this malady inside. And it is only inside oneself that one can undertake a scouring or cleansing.

What drives the fanatic? His purity of faith, or his towering conceit? Is he not the greatest idolater and blasphemer, for has he not made himself and his rage greater than God?

Some people make a lot of noise, are given to dramatic flourishes, because that is the nature of their spirit at that moment. If anything, a calming effect should be sought to be imparted. Others seek quietude and peace. (And some seek a Nobel Peace Prize.)

This is not to suggest that nothing is done, or to preach passivity. Rather, we have to be active, and heroically active, but active first on ourselves, beyond limit, until God knows this vessel to be a pure Temple of his residence.

The call to light is fundamentally one of compassion. The arrogant oppressor is as much in need of being shown the light as anyone else.

We should realise that since we are all different, in terms of our various capabilities and faculties, the same communication cannot be comprehensible to all. Different types of people have to be communicated to differently. But (and not just through internet) there is a kind of superficial equality of all, to express their views, do what they please etc. Hence, only a uniform communication tends to be made. This only complicates matters, since the call ``Arise`` could also reach Satan, and the very path of religion will be for him a means to evil. The appropriate call for some may be ``Be still!``; for others, ``Silence``. Equally, the call itself may be made through a very clear silence.

One also needs so many good religious teachers first, to guide people. My Palestinian friend said to me: ``Religion represents the highest knowledge. But when you see that those who pursue religious education and subsequently become clerics and leaders are the ones who have shown the least academic merit in their school education, then you can only think: God help us.`` I just hope he will be wise enough to encourage his own sons to consider the option of going to the seminary after he completes school. How else will institutions really grow? And if the existing seminaries are not good enough, I hope his personal interest will compel him to try to establish a really good seminary, where some of his friends` talented children can also attend. Religions have to be filled up with the strongest bodies, the best minds, the most creative spirits, the most compassionate, fearless and brave beings, the most skilled hands. For only they can do justice.

This land:

As someone nurtured in India, I am thankful that I have had the opportunity to be intimately embraced by so many living religions: the Hindu ethos I was born into and grew up within; the life of Lord Jesus through Christian missionary school; living with boys of all faiths (and shapes and sizes and colours) and exposure to their customs and practices and admission to their places of worship (at a government-run boarding school); learning bhajans, shabads and quawwalis from other boys; contact with Buddhism and Jainism via multiple access points, through intellectual and spiritual interest as an adult; exposure to indigenous communities` religious practices and conception, and consequent physical and psychic resonances at a personal level through this encounter; and finally, a social and spiritual search, provoked by communal violence, through trying to understand Islam and Muslims, in a context of actively working with poor Muslims.

And, some months ago I was in Jerusalem, where I was able to offer my own special prayers for peace in this region, in our subcontinent, in the whole world, and pray especially for children to be ever protected from suffering. I visited the Wailing Wall of the Jews, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and the Dome of the Rock.

(In Jerusalem I was also able to visit the recently built Shalom Hartman Institute, an institution for progressive Jewish learning as well as inter-faith exchange. That was indeed an inspiring experience, filling me with awe as I remembered our own ancient Nalanda and Vikramshila schools, from where so mch of what we are today had been built.)

Through this journey, I suppose I have come back to what I consider to be the essence of the Vedic ascetic mode, even though living through a material world, as a conventional social being.

In the process of making this journey, I alienated family, friends, associates, was castigated, ridiculed ? I was also repeatedly and severely cheated by several people who happened to be Muslims. As I see it, all that was a small price to pay for a very valuable education on what life and reality is like.

I am now a Believer, but my faith is of an eclectic kind; I am, in parts, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian and Muslim. I recently learnt to recite the Surah Fatiyah, in Arabic scriptural recitation style. I write poems and songs in Urdu and Hindusthani. One of them is ``Hari aur Ali galey miley jab, mulkh mein aayi hariyaali tab``. I have composed songs based on Hindu prayers in Sanskrit, Buddhist hymns in Pali, Christian hymns in English. But then I have long gone beyond religious labels, and I can only see that all roads lead to the same destination. So all religions are very dear to me, and I draw strength and inspiration from all of them.

India has enabled this journey for me, and that is something about India notwithstanding its current political entity. I like to think that many others, in India, in Pakistan, in Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, are also equally embraced and formed in their own tradition by such plurality. The more the religions around, I suppose, increases the likelihood of more people attaining religiosity. And hence a special feeling and concern for this special terrain, of Religion, which is akin to a sacred topography.

So where does God reside - in India or in Pakistan? God resides in the hears of all loving people, everywhere. But those who go on to express this love in and through their life, thoughts, speech, behaviour, actions, help to renew and re-enrich their very soil.

chowk:

The discussion here has been going on for quite a while. Various participants have shown an admirable persistence in exploring TRUTH and PEACE. And with a magnificient broad-mindedness. I feel as if you are all my own close friends or family. Through the discussion I have been moved, to hearty laughter, sadness, intimate feelings and even tears (e.g. reading about the Hindu girl who wept the day after Babri Masjid; why did she weep; what had devastated her? who can understand her utter despair and pain? THAT is India. THESE are Indians.) And the main focus of the discussion has moved away from the subject, i.e. F Khan`s article (and hence so reminiscent of the mythic tradition that we have in common)! Nevertheless, this forum has provided an invaluable opportunity for such a discussion. IAS (like me, and maybe many others)has also been a silent witnesses during this journey. Can those of us who are here stay together for a while through CHOWK(in this time of regional tension), learn from one another, think, widen one another`s horizon, regale, chide and inspire one another, share one another`s wealth (spiritual, cultural), feel a mutual bond through a common love for our land (India-Pakistan), love for the different peoples of this land, concern about the existing state of affairs and a personal commitment to build, humanely, a better future for all?

Even in the little time that I have been at chowk, I have learnt so much, about what Pakistan is for Pakistanis. I was able to observe my own habitual and deeply ingrained attitudes and have been helped to not merely overcome animosity, but even feel affection and oneness.

The consistent hurling of invective and hostility by some in chowk also provides a direct opportunity to observe such behaviour and reflect and begin to understand the psycho-pathology of hate, to what it might owe its origins, how it is fed and fattened. I suppose it comes essentially from a denial of love, and hence perhaps its perfect answer is a surfeit of the same. Very often, I am left feeling that such persons are actually engaged in a wild send-up, holding up a mirror to our basest selves. So thank you too.

At the same time, one should realise that not apparently disagreeing, or apparently being in agreement does not mean anything in itself. Ultimately there is only one`s life conduct, not the arguments won. One-ness between people is not a matter of apparent concord on an issue. One needs the opportunity of circumstances - God`s play - for people`s nature to be revealed, often hidden beneath refined, rational exteriors. We have to remove covetousness, hatred, mean-ness, contempt, a tendency to look down upon others, indiscretions in thought, speech, behavoiur, action etc etc from our systems. Can some of us try to become better through chowk?

Peace is not thought or talked about. Peace is felt and lived.

I hope there are many people observing this discussion as it has been progressing over the past 3 weeks, or have joined since then and remained attuned to it. It would be good if you could at least acknowledge your presence, even if you don`t say anything else.

India-Pakistan:

We all have been fed so many lies and such poppycock from our childhood, all of which we ingenuously accepted. However, for some people, delusions persist through adulthood. For others, adulthood brings an exposure to unknown facts. Some are unable to accept this, it causes acute personal instability. Others feel cheated and weakened by the lies, but are strong enough to now seek to learn and become stronger. Some become bitter and hostile through this.

I do not hate Pakistan, or QeA MA Jinnah. In fact I think he was a finer man than most of those who ruled India post-1947. I can share his vision of a modern, democratic, secular nation of south Asian Muslims. His death shortly after the creation of Pakistan - like the living death of the Nehru-Congress raj in India - was a tragedy of which all of us are the victims. Even while holding on to the hockey, cricket and Kashmir positions, I think Pakistanis would be willing to concede to India the issue of superiority in fabricating fairy tales.

(An aside: while India and Pakitan fought, the game of hockey was stolen from us, by the Europeans, transformed entirely, into something tailor-made for their circumstances and economy, and then we are asked to play that game, which some of us lose like idiots and some lose after fighting valiantly for years. Wah shameful south Asia! Wah crooked Europe!)

Let us try to transcend our conditioning. Let us try to be better than our earlier and present leaders. The spiritual and cultural wealth of our subcontinent has meant that today millions of the finest people on earth are now here. And yet, we seem to remain silent and passive.

In a context where there was, historically, mistrust and animosity between many Hindus and Muslims, and more fundamentally, deep social and economic disparities cutting across religious communities, partition had been a means for a cooling down and getting on with the business of life. If there had been no partition, given the lust for power, we would have simply gone on killing one another.

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Studebaker:

Thank you for your question. That prompted me to put down my thoughts, but that has become a big lamba-chowdah affair, running into many pages. I don`t know to what extent it answers your question, but it spells out my thoughts on various matters, essentially HIndu-Muslim and India-Pakistan. Do you want me to post this?

regards

MITR

Re: Icon, Studebaker, Truth, AD, Maharaj

very nice points well presented all of you. What amazed me was the way all of you put forth your opinions and managed to convince others of your viewpoints and arrive at a logical end. It was amazing how rhetorics and extremist opinions in the course of this replies section have diluted into moderate stands. this interact is One of the many success stories within chowk . Would have dissapointed some who would have hoped to add salt to the wounds.

Hope moderate Indians stand together and make life in India sans communalism.

Especially appreciate Studebaker for letting the other interactors know where he is coming from.

Rishi

It seems that I ruffled up some feathers there. For the record, let me tell you that I DO NOT SUBSCRIBE TO the beliefs of castesism and untouchability.

However the problem remains, and the way to solve it is by educating people that the belief has no relevance in today`s world.

I am not sure why people would label me as a hypocrite, or for that matter a traitor. I was merely expressing an opinion that was given to me by a Phd student doing research about castesim in South Asia.

The only thing I hold true, is that changing people by ridiculing them sometimes works, and sometimes makes a situation worse. If centuries of tradition could be washed away by mere ridicule, then there would not be any racism in literate countries like the USA.

However, if I offended people then I am sorry.

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With regard to the topic of prejudice I suggest that all of you see the movie (or read the novel):

``The Gentlemen`s agreement`` (won some 15 academy awards in 1940 something!)



Though it is about discrimination against jews in the 40`s in america, i think it is supremely relevant in India. This movie tells you why education and economic prosperity(as was/is the case with americans in the 40`s) is simply not enough to fight prejudice. It also attempts to answer what more needs to be done.

IAS

For quite some time i have been a passive observer

in Chowk. But now, I am so shocked and saddened by AD`s post that i just could`nt keep quiet. I wish to register my strong protest against ANY justification for the caste system. Whatever be AD`s intentions, I believe going into historical reasons for the origins of the practice is both irrelevant and unhelpful in countering that evil in its present form.

One thing that AD`s post proves is that neither economic prosperity nor education is enough to stamp out prejudice or the caste system from our soceity. What is needed is the right kind of education at an early age (Some would call it indoctrination but hey, who here is not indoctrinated to something or the other). We need to repeatedly tell and show to our children that this evil should be cleansed from our system and that it has no moral/legal/ethical justification for its continued existence. All our history and prose lessons should be modified to put forward the idea of equality.

History in particular is important in getting rid of some wrong ideas/suspicions/prejudices we have. Some say history cannot be changed and i would agree but i will also say that we can atleast change the way we interpret history and draw the right lessons from it. what exactly are the right lessons, i leave it for debate. As far as I am concerned the right lessons are those which would achieve the best results in terms of clearing the air of prejudice and communalism. For example, I would`nt mind changing the so called historical truths (especially with regard to hindu/muslim problem) to get an atmosphere free of communalism. I eagerly look forward to a debate on this topic.

Thank you one and all,

IAS.

REF AD

I do not know how the `caste system` came into place. May be it did make sense a thousand years ago. After all in a pre industrial age, people tend to do what their fathers did. You learn the trade easily after years of apprenticeship. In a fedual system the idea of equal opportunity did not exist. After all monarchy was based on hereditary.

India is not the only place where the `untouchability` came into being. It is practiced in Pakistan also. Christians and Hindus are treated as `untouchables.` In fact, I have read in CHOWK an article on how Christians in Pakistan are relegated to perform menial jobs like cleaning toilets. So there is a prejuidice among Muslim of Pakistan against Christians. They would not eat with them nor share the utensils with them. A lot of Hindus in Pakistan are bonded labourers.

Years ago, I saw on TV news segment about a community of people in Cairo, Egypt. They live by scavenging the city`s garbage. These people are shunned, nobody from other communities will marry anyone from this community and so on.

Japan also has a similar problem where there is a community of people foced to preform menial tasks for centuries. Although the prejuidice towards them has mellowed, they are still discriminated socially.

Regarding the caste situation in India, I have come to conclusion that all caste connations are nonsense. Qualities like intelligence, cleanliness and decency has nothing to do with one`s caste nor religion. I had a Muslim roommate who had cleaner habits than people of higher caste. I have come across Brahmins who are really dirty. I had friends from Dalit community who were really decent and cleaner than some people from other communities. I also know a Catholic who will go to prostitute on Saturday and go to Church on Sunday. Talk abou christian conscience!

Also decency and intelligence have no correlation. Some of the highly intelligent people turn out be real scum bags.

I want to make it clear that I do not make any excuse for unfair discrimination nor prejuidice. In my opinion, as India becomes more open to the outside world and gets more industrialized and achieves 100% literacy, most of the prejuidices will evaporate.

I have been following the discussions and have had the good fortune to be witness to the wonderful, civilised, sincere efforts of some participants towards peace, harmony, understanding, free of prejudice, fear, threat perception. I think the whole of India and Pakistan should just see how even beginning from apparently from widely different viewpoints, people can reach a common point of view, and as one of the participants remarked, its like group therapy. Of course, this calls for the appropriate mentality in the persons, and that is what is so rare.

As a devout Hindu brahmin, let me here only say that the fifth and highesh caste of Hindus today is MUSLIM.

God`s blessings on all .

MITR

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JR:

Your response to AD is wrong. By telling him to go away, you are just turning a blind eye to the problem. He will just go and repeat the same thing to wherever he goes from here. You have to change his views and discuss and debate with AD. Remember, you dont have to preach to the converted. It is the people like AD who make outrageous statements that have to be engaged in dialogue. Telling AD to go away just transfers the problem to another forum/place.

Re: AD

I am shocked by your statements. I found absolutely no intellectual, moral or logical basis for your hypothesis and what peeved me most was that you admitted to having respect for perpetrators of such atrocities. Please, do not insult our intelligence with your presence on this forum. You are definitely a wolf in sheep`s clothing.

Re: AD

``. I respect them because their practises were based on an age old wisdom, that currently has become obsolete. ``

nothing exemplified the title of this article than this statement. Falsehood galore

Why would you respect someone who follows something that is obsolete. ? beats me

Opinions like yours are more detrimental to India than muslim terrorists, or pakistan.

--

Iconoclast

AD:

I was saddened to read your comments. The extent to which educated people will clutch at straws to find some justification for the caste system - ``death of ayurvedic medicine, viral infections``. Cant you have the courage to say - ``we have some garbage in our past and we are throwing it out``?

Have the courage to say - ``our society was indeed flawed in the past but as the current generation we will reduce the flaws in the future``. Dont sugar coat casteism.

Caste System in Hinduism:

On a historical note, caste system in India was not meant to be rigid. It was a broad way of grouping people based on their occupations. There was no hard and fast rule that people born in the family of a cobbler could not become a teacher, or a warrior.

Now I came across a scholar who presented an intriguing hypothesis. He claimed that the rigidity in the caste system creeped in with the general decline of the ancient Ayurvedic system of medicine. His claim was that due to the loss of that ancient science, the local vaids (doctors) could not cure illnesses that arose out of bacterial infection. This caused a large number of them to die, on the slimest exposure to infection.

The people who worked with infectious materials such as hides, skins (Shurdras) developed an immunity to that since they were exposed to those infections since childhood.

This caused them to become untouchables, because even though they were immune to the infections, they could still pass it on to others.

It may sound far fetched to you untill you look at the practise, as it is followed. A lot of infections are air borne, and hence Brahmins and others who did not have immunity to the diseases would turn around and walk away from the Shudras. The Shudras were not allowed to drink water from the same well or go to the same temple.

All these are precautions that one takes when he is trying to cut down the risk of getting infected. Think about it, a simple fever (caused by non-viral bodies,) is simple, to us because of

the discovery of penicillin/anti-biotics. But it was not simple for our great grand parents. For them an infection like typhoid, or whatever would be fatal.

Lets think about it in todays terms. Imagine if a mutated form of the aids virus was found, that could be transmitted via the air. Then would you not put all the AIDS patients in seclusion and avoid them like the Plauge ?

I for one would believe in the above hypothesis. That is why I respect people who currently follow castesim. I respect them because their practises were based on an age old wisdom, that currently has become obsolete.

AD

Guys, I must admit that personally I have never experienced discrimination in India. Wether it was because I am a Hindu or wether it was becuase I did not come in contact with undeucated people, I do not know.

I do know that my maternal side of the family comes from UP, and there caste and untouchability is very prevelant. The only way that it will go away, is when the economic situation of the region improves. That is why in the business area of Delhi, and Bombay it does not matter who you are. As long as you make money, you are up there.

I am not sure how one should act when faced with discrimination. My mother tells me that in the past, people would not take such incidents to heart. In fact it was very common for muslims and Hindus to be friends, but when serving food, they would server the muslim in a different plate, and that plate would not be used by anyone else subsequently. The muslim would respect the Hindu`s host out of politeness, and that`s it.

In fact my gardener is a Brahmin. He comes to our house, but he will not eat food at our place. And strangely enough, that does not really bother me. Its his belief and if he wants to follow it then thats OK by me. I would care if he was refusing to give me a job because of his beliefs becasuse that would directly affect my economic well being.

BUt other wise, it does not matter to me.

So one way of looking at racism/castesim is to not pay too much of attention to it. So you go to a wedding, and this Brahmin preist comes to you and says that you cannot sit here, you tell him, that if he has a problem, he can go sit wherever he wants. You do not have to move. But do not let his words hurt you, because that is his opinion and not the truth. And the only think that should affect you is the Truth.

Studebaker:

All countries are far from perfect. America is a good country with regard to minority rights. It is not perfect, it is not great, it is good. Similarly, India is not great, it is not good, it is just about average. (However, in some important ways, India is better because our culture is more diverse.It is a lot more acceptable to wear a turban or a skull cap or have an open beard in India - in the US, although they tolerate it they think of you as ``strange`` if you do these things). Since everybody is far from perfect, one has to expect setbacks and not think that a single instance of failure condemns the whole system. We have to be careful to not become negative when we criticize.

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Studebaker:

You are now criticizing India to increase awareness of people about minority problems - this is the action of a patriotic Indian. Anybody who criticizes with the idea of helping India improve is a true Indian. More than a person who keeps quiet and allows people to trample the rights of others.

Like a mother who scolds her son to make sure he learns some lessons for the future, you should keep scolding India. Do it out of love and even out of anger but dont do it out of hate.

PS: This was in response to a posting you had made in an article that has disappeared.

Maharaj:

You seem to be a very immature guy. First of all for you to argue with Iconoclast that no Brahmin could have insulted is him because Brahmins are persecuted is the weakest form reasoning. There are bigots and persecuted in all communities - that seems to be a simple point. Let us assume people are telling the truth in terms of facts and let us discuss opinions. For example, Studebaker says he was pulled off a train. We have to assume he is telling a true story and then decide what lessons are to be drawn from that incident. For you to question the truth of what are very possible situations means we cannot have any discussion because we are just accusing others of lying. The problem is not in truth versus lies but in how we interpret the same set of facts. After the train incident, Studebaker could have decided to keep quiet, kill the policeman, talk about it on Chowk, feel alienated from India forever, hate Hindus, work to improve India etc. etc. - we have to debate these types of responses

Why are you asking Icon if it is justified that a Muslim cut a Brahmins sacred thread? Does he have to answer for each and every act of each and every Muslim? This type of stereotyping is what causes problems. You must improve your level of conversation.

Re; Maharaj.

Hey,,,no offence please. I don`t subscribe to anti-brahminism or anti-anything. Was just highlighting one event where when i had to visit a brahmin wedding, an elderly brahmin seeing me asked my brahmin friend in chaste tamil as to why i a shudra was invited on the auspicious occasion. However i just brushed it off as it did not mean anything to me. But then, i also agree with u that today, Brahmins are the most maligned people atleast in TamilNadu. But being a well educated and stronged willed people, they are still achieving a very high degree of success. Let me also tell u that my best friend is a brahmin and i respect his mother as i would my mother. Hopefully, someday in the future we would forget all these differences. Education and social improvement and reduction in economic disparity are the only remedy for all this is my guess.

Iconoclast (no offence meant )

-- just highlighting some Muslims in occupations that were considered non-muslim in India

They are the blue-eyed boys of Police Commissioner L. Revannasiddaiah, the crime-busting dare-devil cops of the Bangalore police force. Inspector Abdul Azeem (46) and Assistant Commissioner G Ahmed Bawa (49), have cracked many a baffling case, restoring the wobbly faith of Bangaloreans in its police force. From nabbing the kidnappers of millionaire businessman Jaipuria to handcuffing fugitive underworld don Tanveer, they have done it all.

On June 25, they were rewarded for their efforts with a sandalwood baton by the Commissioner. Bangalore

Re: Studebaker.

OK, finally i have an inkling as to where u are coming from. But then, let me tell u , u`re experiences are not unique. They have happened to me too. to quote a minor instance During college, after a cricket match between India and Pakistan, some of my friends had the nerve to ask me if i supported India or Pakistan. The funny part is , one of my friends, the class topper, a hindu was an ardent Imran Khan fan and was supporting pakistan . And no one dared to question his patriotism. Angry i was, but then with a few minutes of retrospection, i realized how the surcharged communal situation is affecting even normal people. I just told them that they have no business to ask me what they did. And i asked them how would they feel if i ask the same question to them ? This is only one of the instances. I have been victimised more severely on account of being a south indian (while in Bombay--saala kala madrasi), a muslim , a Tamilian (in Bangalore -- called derogately as a konga nmeaning monkey and refused to be served water at the height of the cauvery crises in hotes and in kerala ), a non-brahmin by brahmins (shudra), a non-anyone by anyone...(all assorted castes and communities stick together)..etc., Funnily my own community too behaved just like that and had derogatory names for everyone of the above people. However, the truth is all these happenings are only exceptions when compared to the majority. The majority of people i have known from all these different parts have always been friendly at best and not bothered about my identity at worst. Hence i would not insult these saner people by being disparaging towards the whole nation just because of the actions of a few....

It would be an insult to the normal person when we attribute an exception`s actions towards him/her. Can i hate my hindu friend because Advani happens to be hindu ? Can i hate my hindu neighbours who pray in a Muslim mosque en-route to their sabarimala pilgrimage, because of Babri masjid episode.? And if i did, am i being fair to them ??? What if they hate me for what the mujahiddeen do to the hindu pandits in kashmir, or what pakistan does to India ? or the assorted muslim gundas did in bombay ?

These are the questions u need to ask yourself, Studebaker.....happy interospection

iconoclast

Studebaker:

Dilip Dsouza makes some good points and some stupid ones. There is no similarity between a man-of-the-match award and Nishan-e-Pakistan. Azharuddin may have also won some man-of-the-match awrds from Pakistan. The Ganguly-Dilip Kumar comparison is very stupid. There is only one living Indian who has the Nishan-e-Pakistan.

There are good reasons to return the Nishan-e-Pakistan and there are good reasons to keep it. Good and decent people can disagree on this matter. I remember at the time of Operation Bluestar, Khushwant Singh returned all titles he had received from the Government of India. I disagreed with him and wrote him a letter. He replied saying that he thought Bluestar was stupid and would cause a divide between Hindus & Sikhs. I think history probably has proven Khushwant Singh right but, thanks be to God, Hindu-Sikh relations are fast recovering to the solid state they have had for centuries.

Unfortunately, I do agree with Dsouza when he says that Muslims live under a prove-your-loyalty cloud. This is partly the fault of communal Hindus and partly the fault of the fact that the biggest supporters of Partition in the 1940s were UP & Bihari Muslims. Its a new generation of Muslims and they should not suffer the deeds of their fathers. But with the Kashmir pot boiling mainly on religious grounds, non-Muslim Indians are constantly confused by the commitment of the Muslims to India and have some basis for these unfortunate loyalty tests. I, for one, have Muslim Indian friends and read the posts of Iconoclast, Jawahara, Najib and other Muslims and say the glass is more than half-full. Others may read your posts and interviews with Amanullah Khan of JKLF and say the glass is half-empty. This is the unfortunate residue of the two-nation theory.

If Kashmir stays with India forever, we will have the best of both worlds: the two-nation theory held true and valid by the continued and hopefully prosperous existence of the Islamic Republics of Bangladesh and Pakistan and secularism held valid by the existence of a Muslim majority state in India. Maybe that way both sides can declare victory and move on. It may help stop the need for these horrible loyalty tests.