Kargil and the Myth of Losing the Media War

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In response to Ali (Reply #: 122):

Dear Ali:

Your statement: ``bahmad, me and my family have never had the misfortune of living in India.``

Comment: In this case, you perhaps need to go to India and observe yourself the richness and beauty (and even ugliness) of this great country of one billion people. Remember the forefathers of all Pakistanis were once loyal citizens of this country that you seem to hate so much. You indeed are entitled to form any opinion, but often the expression of such opinions lead to unnecessary and unfair consequences. This is what the spirit of Islam asks us to avoid.

Good luck, Bilal Ahmad

bahmad, me and my family have never had the misfortune of living in India

Ali

In response to Ali (Reply #: 120):

I am not really interested in other people`s religious beliefs, I am concerned with my own. I am sorry I cannot accept your invitation for a drink, but you are most welcome to come to my home and we can enjoy excellent Pakistani food. I am not joking!

My call for developing better relations between India and Pakistan, in general, and Hindus and Muslims, in particular, is the need of our times. It is a wise course for the people of both countries. I don`t know anything about your life experiences. But, it seems that you and/or your family members had some bad experiences in India. There are all kinds of people on either side of the border of India-Pakistan who have suffered heavily as a result of the uncalled for actions of some insane, perhaps temporarily insane, people. People have long been using the policy of tit for tat. This has brought a lot of suffering to people of various religious identities. We, therefore, need to take some action to turn the course of events for a better future for all. Are we prepared to learn from our past mistakes?

Best wishes, Bilal Ahmad

RE: bahmad & ravik

ravi, I am sorry I didn`t mean to offend you.

bahmad, you and me are never going out for a beer, that is for sure :-)

Do you know that Brahmins are made from Bhagwan`s head, Khashatriyas are made from Bhagwan`s Arms, Sudras are made from Bhagwan`s feet and the ``muslas`` probably from the droppings? How can you and me (droppings) have a constructive dialogue with the brahmins (head) as per your recommendation??

Hindu and Muslim civilizations have co-existed for a thousnad years with little peace, the ``war`` that you want to win by being nice is a civilizational war, and you can`t opt out of it by being nice; or even by renouncing your faith. You see, you were not born a brahmin, and you can do nothing to change that.

Ali

PS the beer bit was a joke, I would love to have a couple of pints with you, God willing.

Religous freedom in India:

Enough examination of the 8th amendment already. Let me give you an example of the secular laws of India. Some BJP lovers here have complained about lack of freedom for Pakistanis in choosing their religion. Here is a law Orissa passed in 1967 to regulate conversions. My comments are preceded by `--`.

It is known as the Orissa Freedom of Religion Act. Its constitutionality as well as that of the allied law in Madhya Pradesh has been upheld by a five judge Constitution Bench of the Supreme Court in Rev. Stainislaus v. State of Madhya Pradesh [AIR 1977 SC 908].

The law provides, ``No person shall convert or attempt to convert, either directly or otherwise, any person from one religious faith to another by

use of force or by inducement or by any fraudulent means, nor shall any person abet such conversion.``

-- If the christian missionaries offer the sudras, created from the feet of Bhagwan, a life of dignity, that sure is an inducement!!!

``Anyone doing so shall be punished by imprisonment of up to one year and/or a fine of Rs 5,000. For scheduled castes or tribes, the punishment shall be double. ``

-- Of course BJP lovers can also burn the offender and his/her children to death if they so wish, as in the case of Staines.

``The offence shall be investigated by an officer of rank of an inspector of police or above.``

-- Muslims in Bhiwindi, Meerut etc. can vouch for the ``impartiality`` of the fine officers of Indian police. Also my friend Khan Bhai.

The Act was passed in 1967. Rules under it were not framed till November,1989. Here are the rules. They show the true face of the intolerant Hindu society.

``3(i) Each district magistrate shall maintain a list of religious institutions or organisations propagating religious faith in his district and that of persons directly or indirectly engaged for propagation of religious faith in the district.``

-- LISTS..hmm..Reminds one of Nazi Germany. Jay? Kant?

``(ii) The district magistrate, if he thinks fit, may call for a list of persons with the religious faith, receiving benefits either in cash or in kind from the religious organisations or institutions or from any person connected therewith.``

-- Remember the DM of Faizabad who watched the demolition of Babri Mosque and later became MLA on BJP ticket?

``4 Any person intending to convert his religion shall give a declaration before a magistrate, 1st Class, having jurisdiction prior to such onversion

that he intends to convert his religion on his own will.``

-- What has a magistrate got to do with my faith?? excuse me.



``5(i) The concerned religious priest shall intimate the date, time and place of the ceremony in which conversion shall be made along with the names and addresses of the persons to be converted to the concerned district magistrate before 15 days of the said ceremony.``

-- So that the good magistrate can pass this info to the Sangh Pariwar goons and they can take care of the priest and the converted by their favorite method...burning to death.



``7 The district magistrate shall maintain a register of conversion in Form C and shall cover therein particulars of the intimation received by him.``

-- You call this a secular democracy?? ZZ, Jay, Ravi, Kant, please accept that India is a hindu facist state. period.

Ali

In response to Ferozk (Reply # 117):

Thank you for your help. I hope your response will satisfy Jay and Kant Patel (and many others).

Are you aware of any good study on the religious minorities in Pakistan.

Thanks again, Bilal Ahmad

Re: Jay, bahmad et al

This an excerpt from the VIII Amendment of Pakistan`s Consititution. The entire passage is extermely turgid and obtuse, but the following passage is mostly applicable to the intent of the said amendment.

``The Prime Minister shall hold office during the pleasure of the President, but the President shall not exercise his powers under this clause unless he is satisfied that the Prime- Minister. does not command the confidence of the majority of the members of the National Assembly, in which case he shall summon the National Assembly and require the Prime Minister to obtain a vote of confidence from the Assembly,``.

In other words, Gen. Zia instituted the VIII amendment soley to reserve for the himself the power to dismiss a prime minister, with whom he disagreed. Since Zia`s time, this amendment was used by President Leghari to dismiss the governments of Benazir Bhutto (twice) and that of Nawaz Sharif (once). It was because of this that Nawaz Sharif used his popular mandate and legislative majority in the Parliament to revoke the VIII amendment as a means to secure his own power and to prevent the President Leghari from dismissing his government. This led to the celebrated tete a tete between Legahari and Sharif and ended up with Leghari resigning from his office.

I thought I`d post a brief summary of the aforementioned amendment, because I saw no connection between it and the issue being debated in the InterAct! section of article. The VIII Amendment is soley concerned with the ability of the president to dismiss a goverment via a process, which at best could be as described as extra-judical. It has nothing to do with the rights of minorities in Pakistan or what they can or can not be called, as the debate is presently trying to ascertain.

That catogory would fall, I believe, under the mantle of the amendment, which had sought to insitute a form of Shariat or Islamic governance in Pakistan, but was tabled due to a lack of votes needed for its passage in the Senate. The law labelling a person as a ``Kafir`` would derive from the intent of that Shariat amendment.

Though it could pass both houses, it could be brought up before the Supereme Court of Pakistan, because the court does hold the right of review on those aspects of the law, which disagree with the intentions of the Consitution of Pakistan. Given the current state of the consitution, the court will have to strike it down, because in order to pass its scrutiny, certain key passages pertaining to the rights of the minorities in Pakistan will have to revoked, altered or lessened to to allow the ``Kafir`` law to take affect.

Furthermore, it is exteremely difficult to discern the court`s actions in adjudicating such a law or what it might do, but given the fact that case law, or precedents, determines Pakistani law, it is highly likey that the court will dismiss such a case by invalidating its merits. One only has to remember that even though High Courts in Pakistan have routinely handed death sentences to non-Muslims for a host of reasons, mostly alleged as to the nature of the crime committed, the Supereme Court has repeatedly over turned them on all occassions.

Consequently, the so-called ``Kafir`` laws also fall within the penumbera of the blasphemy laws and so far, the charges made against non-Muslims under those laws have not been validated and they have been over turned for a lack a clear and complusive reason why the charges should stand.

Thus, regardless of what the Parliament or the courts determine, the Supereme Court of Paksitan has consistently upheld minority rights and has sought to curtail the government`s zeal, as was evidenced in its ruling on the special terrorist courts set up in Sindh by Nawaz Sharif to reduce the anarchy in the province. As long as the Court remains committed to the principle of judical review, there is nothing significant to worry about, but if it fails in its obligations and responsibilities, then there is a reason for concern in Pakistan vis a vis minority rights.

I hope this helps.....

Statesman:

I am in agreement with you. Indians have to sort out their own society without regard to what Pakistan is doing. I think my initial posts were in response to ali1 and in regard to an Indian-Pak comparisons. It seems we got side-tracked.

In response to Jay (particularly Reply # 109):

Dear Jay:

In my reply # 106, I asked Kant Patel a few questions. My questions were directed toward you too. Your reply # 109 suggests that: (1) you, like me, are not adequately informed about the Law in Pakistan, as you have failed to provide a summary of the Eighth Amendment that you have talked so often; (2) you have a misguided conception (perception) of the Pakistani society which is not significantly different from the Indian society; (3) you, in your attempt to hide the weakness of the Indian society, are engaged in highlighting the weakness of the Pakistani society.

These are my observations based upon your postings. Now, prove me wrong. If you do so, I will beg for your apology. Otherwise, please try to create a feeling of friendship between the Indians and Pakistanis based upon the universal values of love, peace, and fairness. Let us talk about more serious issues facing our Subcontinent.

Regards, Bilal

In response to Ali (Reply # 110):

Religious conversation generally ends in itterness and violence. Communal riots often start with relatively minor and unwise actions of a few. There is a lot of anger and hatred between some Hindus (and Sikhs) and Muslims. This needs to be minimized. But, it could only be done slowly and gradually by winning the hearts and mind of people of other religious and non-religious beliefs. In my Reply # 92, I introduced the proclamation of both Jinnah and Gandhi that advised us ``to avoid in speech and writing, any words which might be construed as an incitement to . . . acts`` of violence.`` I want you to think about this advise. Please refrain from inciteful statements and arguments. I know that you are a nice person and you will take my request in its good spirit. You can win the war by being nice to your (perceived) adversaries.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

RE ZZ: Desecration of Ganesh`s idol in Pune:

Dear ZZ, You keep on referring to the incident of human excrement found on Ganesh`s idol as a proof that Indian muslims incite roits in India. Have you considered the following 2 possibilities:

1- A BJP fanatic like yourself did it to start the rioting so that muslims can then be killed?

2- Ganesh`s idols all over the world are known to drink milk. Maybe this particular one drank too much ..

Ali

Bilal,

I can neither add nor subtract any thing from Kant Patel has said. The law as reported in the pakistani papers say that calling a muslim, wahat ever be the `sub religion, sector or even caste`, a kafir is an offence. In most of the penal codes, the crime is defined. If the law has stated that `calling any one kafir is a crime` then there is no problem. Now you are asking, is there a law in pakistan which says that non-muslims can be called kafirs. Well Bilal, there is a law which says who should not be called. Obviously those who are not defined/specidied in the law can be called kafir with out invoking penal sanctions.

The very fact that such a law has been enacted is a proof that lot of people are being called kafirs. Very strange, you are asking the question, is there any law in pakistan which says that people can be called kafirs. Good question, you had been out of pakistan and out in the sun for too long.

TRUTH#104, As far as Pakistan is concerned,i dont know any thing at all,WHETHER they kill kafir or Ahmedia,demolished all Mandirs or did not upkeep them Is everyone including kafir have to read Koran????

And hypothetically if Pakistan is a devil land what diff. should it make, how India deal with other religous sEcts.The only thing the Indian Muslims share with the devil land is common religion,AND IT WOULD BE DAMAGING TO ALL IF HINDU IN ITS MIND ASSUME THAT THEY(mUSLIMS) ARE UNANIMOUS,AND TO OFFEND A MUSLIM WOULD BE TO AFFEND ALL MUSLIMS!I DONT THINK THERE IS THAT KIND OF COHESCION AMONG ANY SECT ,CERTAINLY NOT AMONG 4-500 MILLIONS MUSLIMS IN THE SUBCONTINENT,

I ALSO THINK, ABOVE MAKING OR DESTROYING ANY MOSQUE OR MANDIR IS HUMAN LIFE,ANY BODIES.

ZZ#103



i WOULD NOT LET YOUR LONG PARA ON RIOTS INITIATION,METHODS,CULPRITS & LACK OF RESTRAINT TO PASS JUDGEMENT IN HASTE ,GO BY WITHOUT STRESSING NEED OF PROOF.SAYing OF FACTS WHICH HAS BEEN ``PROVEN``Riots in India is not a new phenomenon,actually British as usual taught that by putting pig products in the kartoos of Muslim soldier &cow products in Hindu soldiers.Ever since the GADDAR of 1857 how many times pig head in Mosque court yard & gruesom mutilated cow carcasses in temples have been used .

On subject of allegations,You relate how cpm gives free raion card for votes from ``alleged bang,deshis``Are you not saying that because BJP is jelous and wants to break the partnership that hindu & muslim bengalis have formed spl.after 71,a positive turn for all muslims.

On the same subject,it is not Jinnah nor Patel partitioned, it always the british who have been playing wih us like doll.Do you think Mt. Batten gave choice (true) to any leader???Patel 7 Jinnah were glad as something is better than nothing for Jinnah,as for Patel he couldnt resist getting rid of the muslims,whom he had no affinity for!

How long would it take much brighter students becoming IPS officers,to connect the pattern of initiation of riots,when the dull perpretators doesnt even have the smart to alter his methods.I suspect the police force gets personal(they are redblooded hindu afterall)as was the case in Bombay.I am amazed if Abdu Kalam can solve all astro physics problem,yet a low tech technique of more than 14o yrs ago continue to defy solution.

In response to Kant Patel (Reply #: 102)

Dear Kant Patel:

In response to Jay`s statement that ``My [Jay`s] understanding is that in the present day it is appropriate for a hindu in Pakistan to be called a kafir, it is legal`` I wrote: ``. . . could you please identify the law in Pakistan that considers any non-Muslim as Kafir. Please provide proper citations.`` Now, you seem to believe that my statement is ``full of naivety.`` I was just responding to what Jay clearly maintained. Remember, he said, ``it is legal.``

In your post, you maintain that: ``The Kuran at numerous places define Kafir as non-believer.`` Let us stick to this definition. Do you think a Hindu is a non-believer? If a Hindu believes in God (Bhagwan, Krishan, Ganesh, or any other form of God in Hinduism), how he/she be a Kafir? I think, a simple dialogue on the issue of ``Kafir`` is not sufficient to resolve such unnecessary and unwarranted issues.

Remember, both Jinnah and Gandhi advised us ``to avoid in speech and writing, any words which might be construed as an incitement to . . . acts`` of violence`` (see Reply # 92). Are we really following their advise?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

ZZ#103

Well zz good to see you return,no matter what opponents, like BJP,may say it is tainted by obvious hatred for Muslims.Fact muslims in W.Bengal prefer CPM to any other party even our oldest allies,congress.No major riots,appointment of muslims in police force,going farther than central rule of congress by making Urdu 2nd language incertain areas,Bengali & urdu has found each others for rich language attract each other.You ask why not Hindu congress,BsP and you very diplomatically left outBJP.the answer is its not the Hindu name or part is not objectionable so mulim consider the CPM,JUST REASONABLE,PROGRESSIVE THAN ANY OTHER hINDU .Obviously even Joyti Da knows that neither he nor Muslims believe in total marxism of course not,

Statesman:

The destruction of Babri Masjid is not worth the death of even one person. I disagree with the destruction and will happily donate money to anybody seeking to reconstruct Babri Masjid and/or anybody working to stop construction of the Ram Mandir on that site. We have to distinguish two things: hurting a human being and hurting Babri Masjid. My point is that the Masjid destroyers were IN THEIR MIND trying to RESTORE a Mandir. Of course, one can argue that even if what they believe is true (that a Mandir existed), it was not worth destroying the Masjid. That would be my position. But how does one respond to somebody who says ``This was not to hurt Islam generally, it was to restore a Hindu place of worship.``? That is what I meant by saying that even now the language of the Indian communalists, in which category I include Ram Mandir supporters, is very different from the language of the mainstream of Pakistan where the superior position of Islam is a given. I hope you understand the distinctions I am making. I too was unaware of this controversy till the 1980s. It is a tragedy for our nation. As an Indian and a Hindu, I felt and continue to feel a little smaller after the anti-Sikh riots and Babri Masjid. It is a shadow over our country. The only true apology will be bringing the HKL Bhagats and Advanis to justice. Until that happens, we are all as Hindus, as human beings, as Indians, a little smaller, a little diminished.

bahmad: #100

In your response to Jay`s post, your reply: ``Regarding the word Kafir....identify the law...non-Muslim as Kafir``, is full of naivety.

As you must know, Pakistan is officially an Islamic country, as a matter of fact the name it goes by is Islamic Republic of Pakistan. The inference is that its laws and judicial system, along with day to day life, is governed strictly by the Islamic scriptures, hadith, etc. Per the Islamic tradition, there is no pick and choose method when it comes to following the Kuran. The Kuran at numerous places define Kafir as a non-believer, especially an idolator; also it deals in great detail how to deal with the Kafirs. Since Pakistan is officially an Islamic nation, it follows that all non-Muslims are, by definition, Kafirs.

Secondly, the proposed (or passed?) law criminalizing the act of calling a Muslim (and Muslims only) a `Kafir`, through sheer laws of Induction & Deduction, means if you call a non-Muslim a Kafir it is in fact OK, not a crime. So you would ask why? Again, with a little bit of logic you can infer that the reason being the system believes that non-Muslims in reality are Kafirs. They have committed Kafur- by not being believers.

You do not need a law to explicitly say all non-Muslims are Kafirs. When the courts of law of a country rules on an act of crime, they just do not read the law concerned literally, rather they infer, interprete, deduce, etc. So, when you take the constitutional aspects and the legal system of the country in consideration, you will realize who is really targeted as a KAFIR.

Sorry for such a long dessertation for only a five-letter word.

Kant.........

Mythbreaker#

I am happy,to read Omer Khalidis piece in Indian Express.I have known him personally for 15 years,and he will vouch i have been his benefactor in publishing books on Indian Muslims.I know that there is nothing he will write,whether i am aware of it or not,he would not make any wild claims either pro or anti muslim .In short all the FACTS are correct but he does not go into detrimental factors that have existed for muslims spl. after vivesection of both muslims & hindus ,whose only fault was that they were huddled to gether in the two wings of India,East & West!

As for the caught in between muslims in the rest of the country things have been on the downhill.I dont have govt. statistics,but even that can be inconclusive.

JAY #

May be you dont feel proud enough to feel insulted,whether or not i am ``famous``as i understand ,libel ,or character assassintation case does not require the plaintiff to prove if he is as famous as ex. P M Morarji Desai.You obviously have no experience how devastating it is for a muslim to be considered`` GADDAR``,not that i am insulted by you, but i do think ignorence on your part.See ,i am not talking of real ISI but you have no imagination what false accusation of this nature can do to the family.How would you like to wake up in the morning,to be raided by RAW & BSF ransack your house ON SUSCPISCION.And any Indian Muslim is vulnerable sitting duck.I have seen in other times,65,71 any bearded cap wearing men would be rounded on DIR,& now TADA etc.It may be status symbol for Pillo Mody(remember him in 60-70)would wear a cia badge to lok sabha riding a bullock cart.It is another thing to feel like Najam or Nasreen orSalman Rushdie in your own home,house &hearth.

TRUTH#99

``REVERSAL OF A WRONG AGAINST HINDUISM``

What is the wrong,done by whom & are you sure you are punishing the right guy.If you are concentiously fool proof of your conviction,then go ahead with your crime appropriate judgment it only will only rest on your conscious not only your life time but forever.I never heard HINDUS talk with this logic before 60-70 I never even knew there was a mosque in Ayodhya including my Hindu friends.Even if it was built on Hindu temple is it worth 1000s already dead & god knows how many more Hindu & muslims must die,because an embittered,refugee from muslim area is on a ego trip to feel we (hindu ) are the best & need to be RESTORED.

In response to Jay (Reply #: 98 and Jay`s other postings):

Dear Jay:

You have been consistently calling our attention to the rights of minorities (basically religious minorities) in Pakistan. You have also drawn our attention to the Eighth Amendment without even providing a short summary of this amendment. I am not a student of the Constitution of Pakistan, though my casual attempts to understand some parts of this document were generally not very successful. I have, in addition, been away from Pakistan for a pretty long time and during most of this time I was engaged in research that does not pertain to Pakistan. However, I have revived my interest in the political economy of Pakistan (and South Asia). During the past three months or so, I have written more than a dozen or so letters criticizing various aspect of the Pakistani state and political setup. I have published at least one letter that pertains to the rights of minorities in Pakistan (all kinds of minorities). I have also published a few short articles in a couple of newspapers. In addition, you may be aware of my postings on the Chowk and Indolink. I am prepared to learn about any issue of significance to Pakistan and her neighboring countries, particularly India.

In my reply # 95, I asked you a few questions which you have not cared to answer. These questions are important for a good a critique of the violation of minority rights in Pakistan. In your reply # 98, you have asked me to ask an additional question. Of course, we may need to ask many more questions in an attempt to develop a reasonable understanding of the situation.

Jay, if you really want to raise the consciousness of Pakistani citizens, then you need to be more concrete in your postings. If you don`t receive good answers of your queries, this may be because most of your readers are not fully aware of the problem. Or, they don`t share your concerns (rightly or wrongly). So, make them understand and also suggest them some ways of resolving the issue at hand. I think, Pakistan is in a mess but the religious minorities are not as repressed as you seem to believe. If I am wrong, make me understand.

Regarding the word Kafir, could you please identify the law in Pakistan that considers any non-Muslim as Kafir. Please provide proper citations. After you do so, I will send a letter for publication against such a law. This is my promise to you. I am a man of my words, but I would appreciate if you provide answers of my questions which you, to my regret, have chosen not to answer.



Regards, Bilal Ahmad

To bilal and statesman,

I am a firm believer in the notion 9of a collectve identity of a nation, and is represented by the legal system, institutions, customs etc. Whatever might be the original meaning of kafir, 1400 years ago, at present it has a meaning, as understood buy the people, and that is what matters. My understanding is that in the present day it is appropriate for a hindu in pakistan to be called a kafir, it is legal. If a muslim is called that, it is ilegal, and attracts imprisonment. I was only presenting this in the context of pakistan`s expressed desire to have kashmir as part of it, and what will be the fate of the minorities there. The 8th amendment and now the new law, are expressly antiminority.

Now, to statesman,

In the 1970s to call apublic figure a CIA agent was the ultimate insult. Now it is to be called a pak agent, which as an aside you can consider as a progress, pakistan is at par with what US was.

My understanding is that once Morarji Desai was called a cia agent and he sued the newspaper for defamation and he won, being Morarji, he asked for Re. 1 as compensation.

Now after the kargil and the wide spread havok being created by pak agents, i am confident that being called a pak agent with out basis could be construed as an insult and grounds for defamatory action. As it is usually the case, the person has to prove that he had some `fame` before and has been defamed.

I liked the imlication and the rationale behind `staesman` comments. To be a pak agent or not is an act of choice. Similarly to be a kafir or not is an act of choice. All that the hindus and christians of pakistan have to do, not to be insulted by being called a kafir is simply to change the Religion to islam. I didnt see coecieve aspect of the legislation, may be Bilal could ask a few more questions on this.

Regards

Here is an article Indian Express by a muslim scholar .fpr those pakis who are shedding crocodile tears for indian muslims.

The Muslim discrimination is a fantasy

Omar Khalidi

Every so often one hears of discrimination against

Indian Muslims in state employment, particularly with

regards to civil service, police and the armed forces.

Around election time, ``minority cells`` of all political

parties surface through the newspapers demanding

``justice`` and fair treatment to the minorities by the

Indian state. Is there real discrimination against

Muslims just because they are Muslims? Can the alleged

discrimination be established in a court of law? Or is

this merely a case of fantasy versus reality?

Historically Muslims have been less educated than

Hindus in modern education since the colonial times,

and therefore were in smaller number in the civil

service even during the British raj, except in U.P. and

Hyderabad state. The exodus of educated Muslims to

Pakistan contributed to the further decline of Muslims

in the civil service. As the educational backwardness of

Muslims persists even after independence, fewer

Muslims are in the government jobs.

Like other Indians, most Muslims, some 65 percent (as

against roughly 68 percent national average) live in

rural areas, and most are occupied in agriculture and

related fields. Only a microscopic percentage of the

total national population is employed by the state.

Educationally, more Muslims are illiterate than is the

national average. Within Muslims, a higher percentage

of women are illiterate. Because a higher percentage of

Muslims are illiterate, most do not even qualify to

compete for the higher echelons of the state jobs, much

less hired. Since most government hiring is through

competitive examinations held by roll numbers rather

than names, the likelihood of discrimination on the basis

of Muslim-sounding names is absent. However, where

interviews are involved, it is possible to discriminate

against not merely Muslims, but by caste as well since

the Hindu society itself is divided by caste and subcaste,

not to speak of language and region. If the absence of

Muslims in the civil service is attributed tolack of

education, what accounts for the absence of Muslims as

peons in say, the Central Secretariat in New Delhi?

In the armed forces, before independence Muslims

constituted around 35 percent of the total. Today,

guestimates number them around two percent out of a

total of close to a million. Why so few Muslims? Most

of the 35 percent Muslims in the army were recruited

from Punjab and nearby areas. Since those regions are

no longer in India, there are fewer Muslims, although it

is possible that some Muslims were not recruited in the

early decades of independence due to doubts about their

loyalty. But that era has long been over. Since 1989,

there is a policy to recruit soldiers from around the

nation by rejecting the theory of ``martial races``. If this

policy is followed in letter and spirit, there is no reason

why Muslims will be left out. However, the Muslims`

educational backwardness would still be an impediment

to commissioned ranks recruitment, which is through

competitive exams. Recruitment to the air force and the

navy has always been through exams and is unlikely that

Muslims were rejected merely on account oftheir faith.

In the police and the paramilitary, the story is different.

In U.P. and Hyderabad State, Muslims were

``represented`` in the police in larger than their

population percentage. Congress chief ministers in both

states did in fact curtail Muslim recruitment in the

police in the early years of freedom. But again that era

is well past us, much like the excesses of the Evacuee

Property law enforced between 1947 and 56, when

Muslims` immovable properties were seized by the

state.

It is unreasonable to expect that each religious group

will be ``represented`` in each service/occupation in exact

proportion to its population. This is not say that there

are no issues that are Muslim-specific and need to be

solved. The preservation and perpetuation of Urdu is of

special concern to those whose mother tongue it happens

to be, even as it interests some whose native language it

is not. The protection of Muslim personal law and

mosques are obvious issues dear to most Muslims. Yet,

it would be erroneous to claim that Muslims have any

economic and educational interest different from or in

competition with the rest of the nation.

The writer is a scholar at MIT, Cambridge, US

Copyright © 1999 Indian Express Newspapers

(Bombay) Ltd.

In response to Jay (Reply #: 94):

Kafir is derogatory word. It was used for the ``Kuffar-e-Mecca`` some 1400 years back. This word is often loosely and unwisely used by people who, in my view, lack an adequate understanding of the true spirit of Islam.

Jay has raised an important question. But, could Jay explain why the law makers have passed such a law? Is there any wisdom (or its lack of) involved in it? Is there any good that such a law could bring? Do we need to amend this law? What kind of conflicts should we anticipate if the law makers try to amend this law?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

P.S. In the present context, we need to exclude the word ``Kafir`` from our vocabulary.

Here is a paradox for the modern thinkers of pakistan. To call a person belonging to a sect of islam KAFIR has been declared an offence punishable by 15 years of imprisonment. I can reasonably conclude that the term Kafir is a highest form of insult in pakistan. So what is the status of REAL KAFIRS, that is the people who can be legally called KAFIRS with out invoking the penal sanctions in pakistan.

The following is from DAWN. Read before it is edited out

LAHORE, Aug 22: Branding any class of people or any individual belonging to any sect of Islam ``Kafir,`` is being made an offence punishable with 14 years` imprisonment plus fine.

Punishment for passing derogatory remarks against holy personages and the Ahle Bait is being raised from three years to 14 years.

In my reply #92, kindly read ``After the Noakhali and Bihar massacres. . . . ``

I regret for my sloppiness.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Dear Friends:

After the Noakhali massacre both Jinnah and Gandhi issued a joint proclamation (Robert Payne, The Life and Death of Mahatama Gandhi, p. 529). Both leaders said:

``We deeply deplore the recent acts of lawlessness and violence that have brought the utmost disgrace on the fair name of India and the greatest misery to innocent people, irrespective of who were the aggressors and who were the victims.

We denounce for all time the use of force to achieve political ends, and we call upon all the communities of India, to whatever persuasion they may belong, not only to refrain from all acts of violence and disorder; but also to avoid both in speech and writing, any words which might be construed as an incitement to such acts.``

What attract me most, in the present context, the part where both urged the people to ``to avoid in speech and writing, any words which might be construed as an incitement to such acts`` of violence. Do we really pay any heed to our founding fathers? Are we careful in our speech and writing?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Re Amit: ``There is an element of bestiality in our

desi nature....``.

While I applaud the humility and intellectual honesty which this statement reflects, I do not agree with it. If I can think of a really crippling desi cultural feature, it is caste. In Pakistan, I have seen people been designated as ``kammi``, ``lohar``, ``tarkhan``, etc; not only to refer to their occupation derisively, but also in

reference to their allegedly low caste status. In India, I believe, things are worse. As we look down upon those who perform productive labour in society, it is not surprising that our societies remain as backwards as they are.

Communal conflict, however, is another story. Our ancestors lived peacefully, side by side in their villages for centuries. Rulers fought eachother, the ruled did not. Modern communalism is more a colonial inheritance, as well as the result of middle class competition for state patronage. Human nature (including the desi one) is amenable

to calls for brutality when certain conditions are conducive to this. For example, social inequality, presence of grievances, avialability of potential scapegoats (Ahmadis, Muslims, Jews..), and above all the presence of elites ready to exploit the situation for political reasons. In these circumstances, people like Milosovich, maudoodi, and Advani find the most fertile ground.

Milovan Djilas has said that Serbian and Croation

nationalisms were not indigenous. They were 19th century Germanic cultural imports. I think we can say the same about modern Hindu and Muslim nationalism too. The type of nationalism which

preaches that one`s next door neighbour belongs to a different nation on account of his or her religion or language is potentially deadly, and should be rejected by all decent people. This is what recent history teaches us.

Re: Kashmir, India and Pakistan

Those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad.

Hello Ali:

The question is not what India IS - the question is what India SHOULD BE? Even now, in India the terms of the debate are completely different from Pakistan. Believe me, the BJP would LOSE votes if it called itself the Hindu Janta Party. It is not tenable in India that a party with the label Hindu Party could come to power in hte manner in which a party called the Muslim League has come to power in Pakistan. A Hindu Janta Party would get sidelined because almost ALL Indians do not believe in a religion based country. The BJP supporters believe, incorrectly in my opinion, that Hindus have suffered at the hands of secularism and they want Hinduism expressed as a matter of democratic expression. They also support Babri Masjid destruction on the grounds of it being based on the sites of a temple. I disagree with both these positions but it is important to keep in mind what the terms of the debate are: nobody of any consequence, not even the BJP, is seeking a Hindu rashtra. Some do see a supression of Hinduism which I believe is fallacious and wrong. They want to reverse this perceived suppression. This has dangerous connotations but if succesful, it will still not bring India to where Pakistan already is.

RE: ZZ

Hindu Muslim Roiting in India.

Indian government never prints the names of those killed or injured in roiting. Muslims are always killed and their properties looted in disproportionately large numbers. ZZ, only pro-BJP hate mongers think otherwise.

But it seems that terrorist tactics by Indian muslims like bombay bomb blasts can tip the balance a bit. Otherwise, they don`t stand a chance.

Even prior to partition, muslims almost always got beaten up although they had a fighting chance. 80 hindus were killed by Sh. Mujibur Rehman and his goons in Nawakhali. He was a rising Indian Muslim League star then. Mr. Ghandhi cried himself hoarse. Simultaneously, upto 800 villages were cleansed of Muslims in Bhagalpur. Not a whimper from Bapu though.

ZZ, please stop confusing Kashmir with India. What is happening in Kashmir (atrocities by forces, killing of hindus etc.), though extremely deplorable, is entirely consistent with what happened in almost all the recent independence movements against illegal foreign occupation.

Ali

In response to ZZ (Reply # 82):

Dear ZZ: I tend to disagree with some aspects of your post.

Your statement: ``double standards continue to rule the arguments. bahmad and ali agree that hindu organizations did a fascist thing by protesting against MF Husain and threatening him. . . . ``

Comment: Could you please identify specific parts of my posting which you find objectionable? I would like to clarify my position.

I and Ali have not praised each other. I think, Ali is a fine young man with gift for good writing, though our positions/perspectives are diametrically opposite. We also interpret facts differently.

Regards, Bilal Ahmad

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Re: alil#76

As a hindu and an Indian, I strongly denounce what happened to your friend in Ahmedabad. There are indeed some places in India, Gujarat being one of them, where communalism has been very virulent. Similar incidents have been happening to hindus in J&K at the hand of militants and Indian security forces have committed atrocities against muslims in J&K. There is an element of bestiality in our desi nature that rears up its ugly head all over the subcontinent.

Having said that, I feel that you have a misguided notion that everything is going from bad to worse for minorities in India. The reverse is true. Irrespective of what happens politically, one thing has changed irreversibly. The economy in India has opened up significantly and it is booming. There are opportunities being created in every sector and educated folks are not having too much trouble in making a decent living. Recently I was visiting India and for the first time I saw that there was no longer any emphasis on engineering and medicine. Non traditional routes like information systems, journalism, entertainment (TV), advertising, fashion designing etc. are becoming increasingly popular and well paying. There is a strong emphasis on opening your own business. Most of my friends have started their own firms.

This economic environment is affecting everyone from all castes and religions. There is a sense of optimism and electricity in the air, as most people are sensing that there are opportunities for everyone. As a result of the expanding economic pie, muslims are beginning to enter the national mainstream in a big way and a lot of them are doing very well.

As an example, when I was visiting India, I noticed that there was a debate going on about the differences in the Urdu press in India versus the Urdu press in Pakistan. The Urdu press in India is many times more critical of Pakistan than the mainstream media. The keyword in the Indian Urdu press is ``taleem`` or education. Article after article calls for focus on education, employment and enterpreneurship. Muslim kids who have done well academically are treated like film celebraties and given tremendous coverage to motivate other muslims. This is the sign of a resurgent community that is coming back in a big way.

A sense of national unity is developing between hindus and muslims that has never been seen before. The reason is that people are realizing that hindu-muslim relations need not be a zero sum game, where if one side wins the other has to lose. We can be winners together. Muslims were completely supportive of India in the Kargil matter. There were no riots anywhere except for some very minor incidents. There were large number of muslim soldiers and officers killed in the Indian army which included Kashmiris. Whenever, their dead body came back to their home town, hindus and muslim resdents came out in record numbers to pay their homage jointly. That is progress for you. We still have a long way to go and there are problems with the Sangh Parivar etc., but there are some fundamental changes occuring in Indian society that will startle Pakistanis in the years to come.

In response to Ali1 (Reply #: 76):

Dear Ali: I wish to commend you for writing style and the clarity of thoughts. I, however, I would like to submit the following for your consideration.

Your statement: ``Perhaps an intellectual or a philosopher can make sense out of what you guys wrote, but for a layman like me, situation on the ground is a better teacher.`` Comment: I think, both myself and mitr are fully aware of the ``situation on the ground`` and we do not condone any violence of any sort on any human being in any part of the world. Violence is a byproduct of ignorance, weakness, and the inability to resolve conflicts peacefully, amicably, and justly. Peace, friendship, and justice are basic human desires and, in the case of India and Pakistan, basic human needs. Both Indians and Pakistanis can identify numerous cases of gross barbarism inflicted by the other party. Similarly, similar deplorable actions have affected people of diverse identities within each of these countries by their fellow nationals. Violence beget violence, and it has never resolved any problem permanently. In view of the situation, I said: ``We need to open the lines of communication. We still live in two essentially different worlds, where a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding is created by people who are incapable of doing something better. I live in a large University town (small otherwise) in the United States where my family is treated with a lot of respect (and love) by our Indian friends. We have developed these relations over time as a result of communicating with them and by adopting a policy to maintain good relations with them. But remember, most of us are well educated people who do not like to be governed by various (un)intended actions that lead to various behavioral weaknesses (such as recourse to a policy of tit for tat). We also realize that with our views and actions we project a good/bad image of ourselves.``

Your statement: While you see ``amazing things happening in the realm of culture``; I see Bajrang Dal activists ransacking M.F.Hussein`s house because he painted a nude hindu goddess.``

Comment: You are absolutely right. In any society, both good and evil forces coexist. The existence of evilness does not mean that there is no goodness. Ransacking anybody`s house irrespective of class, gender, ethno-linguistic, religious, and place-based identities is a serious matter. It must be deplored and every effort must be taken such that similar actions do not repeat in future. But, the success of such efforts is more likely when we remain calm and do not get carried away with the tide of ignorance, lawlessness, violence and unfairness.

Your statement: ``While you hope that ``India will become a just, pluralist society [sic]``; I see that India is fast becoming a facist hindu society, where minorities have to prove their loyalty to India as and when demanded by the hindu leaders. And please don`t give me the ``actions of a few`` or ``fringe extremist elements`` bull. These people are your elected rulers today, and we will see them return with a even bigger majority, proving once and for all that India is a country of intolerant, violent [sic] bigots with a fancy constitution.``

Comment: Indeed, there have been a lot of cases of violence against innocent citizens of India, including the Muslims in India. Dilip Kumar`s recent trouble is a case in point. Dilip Kumar was ruthlessly demoralized by the extremist supporters of BJP, perhaps with the covert and unwise support of the so-called moderate elements in the BJP. Dilip Kumar had to prove his loyalty to those who even are not loyal to the current and future well-being of their motherland. This is unwarranted and uncalled for. I am sure, good people like mitr and Ramaswamy would agree with me. Nonetheless, how do we know that a large silent majority of Indian people is really supportive of the policies of Hindu extremists who are full of hate for anything but their supporters? I have a feeling that most Indians (particularly Hindus and Sikhs ) are personally very decent human beings. We, therefore, need to act wisely and make every possible effort not to alienate them with our unwiseness. Hence, I wrote: ``We need to continue to learn more about each other for a better understanding and for our mutual enrichment. . . .Most strictly segregated people cannot understand this enrichment. So, we need to lower the walls of our segregation, not to assimilate but to develop a mutual respect for our peaceful coexistence and preservation.`` I further added: ``We . . . need to examine our history critically to learn from the mistakes of our past. One major step in this direction would be to understand the nature and sources of our conflict with the desire to resolve our differences (both major and minor) peacefully, amicably, and justly. Problems get reproduced and become bigger if we do not engage in problem solving.`` This is what has happened, particularly since the Indian Mutiny of 1857.

Regards, Bilal Ahmad

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RE ZZ # 75:

There you go mixing issues again.

Plight of minorities in India needs no debate. It is visible to all except pro-BJP elements like you who are blinded by hate and also what seems to me by an impotent rage; probably arising out of reading accounts of real and perceived injustices and atrocities committed by mughals and others.

The suffering of hindus in Kashmir, though touching in purely human terms, is no different from the fate of all collaborators of foreign occupation forces in any fight for independence.

STATESMAN #77, Please give the URL if you think a newspaper article is worth reading. No need to clutter this website.

It looks like VSNL has stopped blocking Pakistani newspaper websites; but don`t get too excited about it STATESMAN; just thank Bhagwan that your facist leaders are letting your read something other than their facist-hindu propaganda.

Ali

This just in,M. Hussain the ``Stephenapoulous ``like Nawaz aide also ex. Editor,Pakistan may have lost the MEDIA war, but seemed to have won the battle,of bringing Kashmir awake!





Pakistan emerged winner in Kargil: Mushahid Husain

KARACHI, Aug 20: Federal Minister of Information and Media Development

Mushahid Hussain Sayed has said Pakistan has emerged a winner in the

Kargil conflict. He was speaking at a seminar organized by Radio

Pakistan Karachi on the post-Kargil scenario.

Quoting the International Institute of Strategic Studies (IISS) report,

the minister said in view of the situation Pakistan had emerged a winner

in the Kargil conflict, adding that these were the basic facts.

He said Pakistan had adopted a sensible policy vis-a-vis the issue and

that its approach was practical.

``And we have gained. We have managed to stabilize our own position and

put India on the defensive,`` Mr Hussain said.

He said Kargil had given a clear and big message. The atmosphere has

changed, and now the pressure is on India. The minister said the Kashmir

issue had been internationalized and pressure on India had increased.

He said the United States had given public commitment at the level of

its president to help resolve the Kashmir issue and resume dialogue.

Mr Hussain stated that in Kargil the Indian army had suffered a lot at

the hands of a few hundred Mujahideen.

Above all, the danger of war had been averted in the region, he added.

The minister referred to the US human rights organization Asia Watch`s

report which said the P-5 countries, namely, the US, Britain, China,

Russia and France should stop aid to India until such time as India

continued to violate human rights.

He said an influential US newspaper, Washington Post, in its July 16

issue said the main issue was India`s denial of the right of self-

determination and the denial of democratic rights to the people of

Kashmir.

Mr Hussain said on May 30, this paper had also written that India wanted

to impose its hegemony on the subcontinent.

He stated that British Prime Minister Tony Blair and Foreign Secretary

Robin Cook had said that the UN military observers should be

strengthened on the Line of Control (LOC).

He said there could no longer be a status quo in Kashmir, and that this

issue had to be resolved peacefully and in accordance with the United

Nations resolutions and the wishes of the people of Kashmir.

Replying to a question, he said Kargil issue today was the biggest

divide in Indian politics and its election campaign.

The minister said this was perhaps for the first time that in the Indian

elections the number one issue was Kashmir. All focus will be on this

issue and the outcome of the elections will depend on it.

He referred to the Times of India report which stated that the

allegation that Pakistan had mutilated the bodies of Indian soldiers was

wrong and without any basis.

He said India had five television channels while the PTV had only one.

India has imposed a ban on the PTV, but Pakistan has not banned any of

the Indian channels. ``We are not afraid,`` he added.

The minister pointed out that in 1984 India had launched a military

operation against the Sikhs at the Golden Temple. In 1992 the Babri

Mosque was demolished under a conscious policy. In 1993 Muslims were

massacred in Bombay and in January 1999 an Australian missionary and his

children were burnt to death.

He quoted from the book Diary of Diplomat, written by a New Zealand

envoy to India, John Reid, in 1986, in which he had said Nehru had

wasted a historic opportunity to resolve the Kashmir issue.

If the Kashmir issue had been resolved there would have been a lasting

peace in the region, and the destiny of South Asia would have been

different, he emphasized.

He said the success of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif is that we got the

Americans at the highest level to make a commitment.

Mr Hussain said after the Washington Declaration the focus had shifted

and the international community was saying that there should be talks to

resolve the Kashmir issue.

He said the Kashmir issue had to be resolved at the conference table and

that it had to be resolved through diplomacy.

The minister referred to regional conflicts such as Kosovo, Bosnia, the

Middle East and Northern Ireland, and pointed out that i

Dear Mitr ji, bahmad,

Perhaps an intellectual or a philosopher can make sense out of what you guys wrote, but for a layman like me, situation on the ground is a better teacher.

While you see ``amazing things happening in the realm of culture``; I see Bajrang Dal activists ransacking M.F.Hussein`s house because he painted a nude hindu goddess.

While you hope that ``India will become a just, pluralist soceity``; I see that India is fast becoming a facist hindu society, where minorities have to prove their loyalty to India as and when demanded by the hindu leaders.

And please don`t give me the ``actions of a few`` or ``fringe extremist elements`` bull. These people are your elected rulers today, and we will see them return with a even bigger majority, proving once and for all that India is a country of intolerant, voilent bigots with a fancy constitution.

Studebaker bhai, If you are a layman like me, and not a philosopher :-) here is a story from India that will warm your heart. Bear with me.

I had a friend in the Middle East, Khan bhai, from Ahmedabad Gujarat. Khan Bhai had lost his family to anti-muslim roiting in the 80s. He had a photo album with numerous snaps of the atrocities committed by the peace loving hindus on the hapless muslim minority. You see, he was no ordinary citizen, he was an Inspector of police and would take pictures of the crime scenes he visited.

One of the photographs was of his 18 month old son, strangled with a barbed wire. I saw this picture myself. The other photograph that he never showed anyone was that of the chopped off breasts of his wife, left on his TV set like decoration pieces.

His family was killed in his official quarters which was in the midst of other offical police residences. Of course his was the only muslim family there. And of course none of the constitution abiding police officials saw or heard anything.

Enough already.

Having lived for 30 years in India, you must have heard stories like this (or seen a distorted version in some Hindi movie). Here is the heart warming part. Friends insisted that Khan Bhai send these photographs to the media and HR organizations, to expose the true face of ``ahinsa`` to the world. ``Nahi bhai``, he would say firmly, ``this is my private grief, and my private war.``

Studebaker, while you, me, mitr and jay can argue back and forth about the finer points of the Indian constitution, there are way too many Khan Bhais out there waiting for their turn. It is just a matter of time.

And the Sangh Pariwar keeps adding thousands to their ranks every year, from Kashmir to Coimbatore.

Ali

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In response to mitr (Reply #: 68):

Dear mitr: Although your posting was directed toward Ali1, I commend you for your positive thoughts and a sense of goodwill. I would like to submit as under:

Your statement: ``Most Indians are not intolerant followers of BJP.``

Comment: I wish we work together and develop, over time, a sense of the veracity of your statement. Tolerance is power. Intolerance suggests ignorance and a weakness of character. Both Indians and Pakistanis need to adopt a policy of tolerance for our mutual benefit and understanding.

Your statement: ``But the fundamental malaise characterising India and I suppose Pakistan, is that there are TWO NATIONS: the babus and the bhaiyyas.`` ``In human terms, this also means that HUMANE COMMUNICATION between these two worlds is a rarity.``

Comment: We need to open the lines of communication. We still live in two essentially different worlds, where a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding is created by people who are incapable of doing something better. I live in a large University town (small otherwise) in the United States where my family is treated with a lot of respect (and love) by our Indian friends. We have developed these relations over time as a result of communicating with them and by adopting a policy to maintain good relations with them. But remember, most of us are well educated people who do not like to be governed by various (un)intended actions that lead to various behavioral weaknesses (such as recourse to a policy of tit for tat). We also realize that with our views and actions we project a good/bad image of ourselves. Like most mainstream Americans, we also care about our image.

Your statement: ``I would still say that in the realm of culture and religion, very wonderful and amazing things are also happening - as has also consistently happened historically.``

Comment: We need to continue to learn more about each other for a better understanding and for our mutual enrichment. Just think, what good Lata and Asha (among others) have brought to this world. These women, to use an Indian expression, are Devis. They have brought a lot of happiness and peace in my life. For a similar tribute to a Pakistani singer, read Ramaswamy`s piece on Reshma. I think, both Hinduism and Islam, and their followers, have enriched the people of India and Pakistan. Most strictly segregated people cannot understand this enrichment. So, we need to lower the walls of our segregation, not to assimilate but to develop a mutual respect for our peaceful coexistence and preservation.

Your statement: ``This ancient magically bounteous land, INDIA-PAKISTAN, is tired and exhausted with centuries of strife, bigotry, injustice, oppression and disgrace of truth.``

Comment: Some people are indeed tired and exhausted. We, however, need to examine our history critically to learn from the mistakes of our past. One major step in this direction would be to understand the nature and sources of our conflict with the desire to resolve our differences (both major and minor) peacefully, amicably, and justly. Problems get reproduced and become bigger if we do not engage in problem solving.

Regards, Bilal Ahmad

From Dawn, letter to the ed August 20th 1999

Kashmir: an Indian`s point of view

I am a second generation Omani of Indian origin and I am very lucky to live in the country of peace, tranquillity, and harmony under the wise leadership of His Majesty Sultan Qaboos. Sultanate of Oman due to the magnanimity of his Majesty, has no border disputes or quarrels with any of its neighbours. I have recently returned from the US and feel that I have returned to a warm paradise on earth.

I am also witness to the fact that we Hindus have never felt victimized, discriminated against, or looked down upon by the overwhelming Muslim majority of Oman in any way. Even the Pakistanis (and there are many Pakistani expatriates here) living in Oman greet the Omani as well as non-Omani Hindus with friendship, courtesy and without any communal feelings of any kind. What hurts me is that when I read the Indian newspapers, and the statements of some of the Indian leaders, I find them full of communal hatred and hysteria against the Muslims living in India. How can India claim to be a secular state when its popular leaders give out such non-secular statements? In retaliation, some fanatical Pakistani leaders make similar jingoistic statements.

The latest episode of shooting down of an unarmed non-hostile Pakistani aircraft, (whether it did or did not cross the border is a matter of claims and counter-claims and immaterial to the basic argument) the debris of which fell within Pakistani territory, is hardly likely to enhance the chances of peace.

The Kashmir problem is being dragged by India and Pakistan for the last 50 years without any solution. Hundreds of billions of rupees have been wasted by both India and Pakistan in an arms race that only benefits the makers of those arms. That money would have been better spent in feeding the hungry of both the countries. They have now also entered a nuclear race, which only spells disaster in the hands of the religious fanatics on both sides. If only that money had been distributed to the people of Kashmir then each one of them would be a millionaire today instead they have had nothing but misery. The human misery of Kashmir is no less than the one in Northern Ireland. Even that problem could not be solved by war and ultimately the solution came across the negotiating table. Let India and Pakistan sit around the negotiating table and solve this problem finally. They should learn from the example of Oman that magnanimity in border disputes brings about lasting peace and harmony that ultimately breaks down the borders forever.

In many ways, the problem of Kashmir is very similar to the problem of Quebec. In Kashmir also there is a linguistically and ethnically different population that is asking for the right to choose their future. There have been two referendums to decide if Quebec will remain in Canada or will separate. Canada does not call Quebec as its integral inseparable part. Why should India?

States of a union - and India is a union of states - stay together based on the desires of the people living in those states and no one can be forced to be a part of any union or country. That is the way of the modern world. The Indian government should also have the courage to hold a referendum in Kashmir so that the Kashmiri people can decide whether they want to stay with India or to separate from it.

Germany, England, and France fought two World Wars in which millions of people died yet today they sit together as good friends around the table of the common European community. If these warring factions of the two World Wars can live in peace and harmony then why can`t India and Pakistan? The Europeans have learned that wars bring hatred, misery, and economic regression whereas peace brings tranquillity, brotherly love, hope, and economic progress. Let the Indians and Pakistanis do the same. Let there be a free and fair referendum under the United Nations, like in East Timor, and let the people of Kashmir decide what they want to be their future.

VIJAY AJIT KESHAVJI

Muscat, Oman

Hasan Khan.

Yes. In ideal conditions to your suggestion, “There is only one solution to Kashmir issue and that is to let Kashmiris decide what they want to do: join with Pakistan, independence or stay with India. All solutions that don`t inovolve the Kashmiris` wishes will fail.” a ear could be lent to. In present, you must be kidding! Take a ride on the shuttle and try expanding the 2nd option.

Ref: Reply #77

Goyal.

I vehemently second your suggestion. Let’s join hands and do it. For these idiots our future generations will not forgive us. They will loathe our attitude that we could not live, as good neighbours. Even like a cattle herd- they do not entangle their horns as too often. Today Germany and England, the perpetual rivals have joined together to form European common market, yet keeping their singular identities.

Ref:Reply # 63

Studebaker.

My reply #57 was in response to a query from Wasiq #48 originated from my reply #47 against IMRAN KHAN THE NEXT PRIME MINISTER OF PAKISTAN BY GEORGE F.MAXIMILLIAN.

Sorry to have missed you and others.

Happy mileage!

tariqlodi.

Re: Jay # 67

I agree with Dawn`s comment below. Unlike the Indian newspapers who dare not come out of the patriotic straight jacket, Pakistani print media presents a spectrum of opinion on all subjects of national importance.

Taleban are fighting a civil war and Pakistan has no business there. However, Kashmiris are fighting a war of independence from a brutal foreign occupation and deserve our full support and sympathies.

Ali

Re. No. 66:

Dear Ali-bhai,

While I agree with you in essence, perhaps you need to qualify your comments somewhat. Most Indians are not intolerant followers of BJP. The Indian mainstream IS on the whole extremely blind, insular, bigoted, AND many of those who are apparently anti-BJP are equally blind and insular, and do not bode well for a healthy future. But notwithstanding that, one will also find a very large number of people, among the common folk as well as educated sections, who are largely free of prejudice. This last group is perhaps the silent, suffering majority - in whose name all claim to speak and act, but never quite connect to. But the fundamental malaise characterising India and I suppose Pakistan, is that there are TWO NATIONS: the babus and the bhaiyyas. There is an immense socio-economic and cognitive hiatus between these two worlds. The cognitive universe of the English-speaking, English mass media relating section exists only in its own imagination, but this section is powerful beyond measure in maintaining and benefiting from the inequitous status quo. The typical life experience of the babu is such as to keep him in a delusionary world, of law and order, knowledge, ethics, culture, while being totally ignorant of ground reality. Thus they also remain perpetually blind to, the inherent un-ethicality of vast aspects of their everyday life, because of their own location in a power structure that is highly inequitous. With growing material aspirations among this class, they are now forming the reality in accordance with their worldview that does not see beyond the tip of their own nose - in the form of a privileged island surrounded by a sea of deprivation. In human terms, this also means that HUMANE COMMUNICATION between these two worlds is a rarity.

Having said this, I would still say that in the realm of culture and religion, very wonderful and amazing things are also happening - as has also consistently happened historically, with a CITY of MAN being built steadily trans-historically. So one has the conviction that India shall yet successfully accomplish the historical, civilisational challenge of building a just, pluralist society. And the secret of this is simply the harmonious coming together, for the first time, of historically distanced peoples. The silent chorus of millions of free and empowered voices, that have forever been stilled and held from singing together, is deafening.

This ancient magically bounteous land, INDIA-PAKISTAN, is tired and exhausted with centuries of strife, bigotry, injustice, oppression and disgrace of truth. All that the children of this dear mother can aspire for is to serve her, by working ceaselessly, in whichever way possible, to strengthen peace, justice and harmony in their land.

Regards

Mitr

The following is a lone voice, from `dawn`, providing an alternate explanation to losing the media war. There are times when truth matters. This also provides some food for thought, similarity of kargil and taliban, and casts doubts on the pakistani concern for the torure and killing of poor kashmiris by the 700,000 indian occupation forces.

Once again we stand dangerously poised on the verge of international isolation, this time with regard to our role in the civil war in a neighbouring Afghanistan. For our support to a group whom the international community increasingly perceives as barbaric, intolerant and primitive, bent upon imposing its mediaeval version of Islam on ethnically and racially as diverse a society as Afghanistan. To make matters worse for us, as far as our international image goes, these elements are the products of our own madressas or deeni schools. As conceded by our foreign minister, they cross over from our territory to that of a neighbouring country where they fight with the most sophisticated weapons including aircraft and tanks, while we continue to assert that we have no control over them nor are we involved in this fighting.

If the Kargil episode should teach us anything, it is not to underestimate the importance of international opinion and not to stretch credibility to such patently absurd limits. The world did not believe us when we claimed that the Mujahideen suddenly materialized on the Kargil heights and later, on descending from there, have disappeared into thin air. The world is not going to accept our claim that hordes of heavily armed Taliban supporters somehow manage to cross our borders without our knowledge or control.

We can surely be asked to explain how a warring faction of a land-locked country, where every imported item, from a tube of toothpaste to a truck or a grinder, must of necessity pass through Pakistan, get their arms and ammunition? Will we be allowed to simply shrug off our responsibility to control the movement of people across our borders, particularly in a situation fraught with such serious consequences? After all, isn`t this seemingly helpless state machinery - the same one which keeps a tab on every citizen leaving its ports by means of the notorious exit control list?

The truth of the matter is that with our thoughtless support and backing of the Taliban we are adding fuel to an already smouldering fire that threatens to consume us in more ways than one. With continuing attempts by Indians and their supporters on Capitol Hill to paint Pakistan as a primitive, rogue state, which exploits Islamic radicalism for narrow or expedient purposes, will, if anything, gain substance?

Every single pro-BJP website repeats the same argument over and ond over again.....``Look at how muslim countries treat their minorities; what do the Indian miorities have to complain``. The intolerant followers of BJP, which is most of the Indians at present, accept this dumb argument whole heartedly as is evidenced from postings on this website.

I accept that Indian constitution is superior to the Pakistani constitution, but BJP lovers have no right to claim credit for it; you can`t trash Ambedkar and praise your ``legal framework`` in the same breath.

And given that BJP is in power and the Indian mainstream is a bigoted and intolerant lot, you can praise your constitution, frame it, love it, kiss it whatever, doesn`t make an iota of a difference in the lives of suffering Indian minorities.

The district magistrate of Faizabad/Ayodhya, a fine upholder of the fine Indian constitution, did nothing while Babri Masjid was being torn down, was awarded a BJP ticket after resigning his job, and was the MLA from this God forsaken contituency.

I hope the educated Indians realize that BJP will bring to India what Nazis brought to Germany. And your constitution will not save you I think.

Ali

studebaker,

In no way i was trying to compare india with pakistan. I was only trying to point out that pakistan hasnt got a legal framework to integrate kashmere. It is an islamic country, minorities and women have no legal protection, I repeat legal, and cited the case of eighth amendment and hounour killing, again not the killing itself, but the refusal of the ruling `moderate` party of pakistan to condemn it. Pakistani version of solving kashmere is the annexation of killing and the killing of the other minorities in kashmere, a repeat of 1947, which created the islamic republic and the anhilation of the minorites, less than ,5% of them today is the proof of this policy.

It is probably time for the educated pakistanis to realise, what the kashmere solution entails, and what future holds for the minorities of pakistan.

reply to ali1.

I have been reading the articles and the replies on chowk for a long time. But i never thought of giving a reply. Now i

have decided to give one reply.

First of all let me make it clear Pakistanis that u donot have any moral ground to talk about safety of minorities in India. You look at your own backyard u will find christians, shias, ahmedis being killed at places of worship and everywhere. In India no shia or sunni muslim ever died in a mosque. In a multi ethnic society it is the responsibility of all the communities live in peace. ``Taaliya ek haath se bajatha nahin``.

Ali1 said that India is a intolerant society.You cannot give two incidents like Graham staines murder and babri mosque and generalize india as intolerant country. If India is a intolerant country India must be having 99% hindus and 1% minorities like pakistan. BJP lost elections after babri mosque destruction. The reason for people choosing BJP is that they donot have any other strong party at the center. People are tired of Congress and its corruption. You think only hindu parties are communal. There are dozen or so muslim communal parties which the congress and the left parties always supported. Left and congress supported minority communalism driving the majority to BJP etc. All the minority communal parties were there even before the birth of BJP. Even Muslim League is there(called IUML) which was instrumental in deviding India.You think all the time minorities at the receiving end its not exactly true it is both the majority and minoirty

who suffered becoz of communalism.Forgot about bombay blasts which killed 400 innocent lives, Coimbatore blasts which killed 60 lives.Both were perpetrated by muslims.

In ali1s reply it was generalised that India is a intolerant country becoz its a hindu country.Ok lets take Islamic tolerant countries.

1.Indonesia, for every problem christains were killed there daily basis.

2. Pakistan u know better than me.

3. Afghaninstan i think even in this cae u know better than me.Pakistan is the one of the two countries which recognised the taliban.

4. Iran, what about bahais, jews , sunnis and christians.

4. Saudi, what about shias and it doesn`t even allow any one else to build their temples or churches.

If u want i can give some more country names .

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Re Amit #42

I agree with your point of view. Serious efforts

to resolve the situation in Kashmir will necessaily include a decision on the part of India, Pakistan and Kashmir that there should be

a cease-fire followed by delimilitarisation. In the beginning, all Mujahideen activity should cease simultaneously with the withdrawal of Indian trops from population centers. Of course the Pundits should return. It is their inalienable right under the Universal Declaration of H. R..

Later India and Pak can position their troops in

non-offensive positions at the LOC. Both India and Pakistan should remove bans on discourses demanding secession and independence from India and Pakistan. Pakistan should also signal its sincerety for implementing U.N. resolutions on Kashmir by returning the Northern Areas to Kashmir, and affirming its position to withdraw from Azad Kashmir so that a free and fair plebiscite cold be held in Kashmir as a whole. If India and Pakistan can achieve progress in this direction, they will have ceased to be enemies, and India will not have to feel insecure about the

political orientation of Pakistan and Kashmir towards it. But given, the existing configuration of political power in both India and Pakistan, I

am pessimistic baout the possibility of improvenments.

In response to Studebaker (Reply # 55):

Dear Studebaker: I agree with you. The fallacy of composition needs to be avoided/rejected at all costs. However, misunderstandings tend to get reproduced unless we make serious and untiring efforts to bridge the existing gulfs of misunderstanding.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Re: Jamaat vs. BJP

And I am amused to see our ``progressive`` & ``enlightened`` hindu friends defending the BJP.

Granted that Vajpayee is not afflicted with oral diahorrea as are some other Sangh Pariwar leaders like Khushubhai Thakre and Bal Thackray. But his reaction to the burning death of the christian missionary and his sons was stunning to say the least. ``Let us have a national debate on conversions`` , pleaded your pardhan mantri.

Excuse me sir!! A christian missionary devoted to helping lepers was burnt alive along with his 2 kids and you want a debate on conversions!! What has the prime minister of a secular democracy got to do with the religion of its citizens?? And this crime was reportedly committed by a frenzied mob egged on by a known Bajrang Dal activist.

Ah....talking of frenzied mobs (they recently burnt a muslim boy to death in Gujarat); the frenzied mob is none other than Raju pan wala and Dilip dhabay wala, everyday people, your next door neighbors, ready to burn you, to avenge the barbaric acts of Babar, Akbar and co, or if you are a christian missionary, for your efforts to convert ``Prasad the un-touchable`` to ``John Raabert Alexander``.

Accept it Jay, Indian mainstream is bigoted and intolerant and their voting for BJP is a proof of that.

And don`t try to hide that by comparing the Indian constitutional framework (which is much superior) with the Pakistani constitutional framwork. Indian constitution was written and approved at another time by another set of people. Lets talk about today; forget Khushubhai Thakre, even Arun Shourie the slick willie of the Pariwar thinks that Ambedkar is highly over-rated as an intellectual and his ideas have brought more harm than good. So if you are a BJP fan, please don`t take credit for the Indian constitution!!

Ali

In response to Jay (Reply # 56):

I sent a letter to Jang for publication in the News in response to Barrister Baacha`s response. It seems that the editor has chosen not to publish the same. However, in the Viewers Forum there is a posting which is not mine. The author`s name is ``Bilal Ahmed`` not ``Bilal Ahmad``.

This note is just to clarify my position.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

You have painted it in very true colours. The only point that I tend to disagree is when you say that democracy has returned. Do you believe, even after giving the true picture? It is not being unPakistani. But being a true Pakistani. One should not pay any heed to these SELF PROCLAIMED/IMPOSED LICENCE VENDORS.

To my mind criticism can never be un-constructive. You point at things, which are wrong and ought to be corrected! tariqlodi