Of Boylove and Boylovers

aziz786...

a woman is baligh at the age of 9.

a boy at 15.

just becuz something doesnt sound right for this day and age doesnt mean it wasnt practiced way back when. most `revayaat` about ayesha are false anyhows.

Dear PM:

i feel sorry for you...but not in the condescending way. i sincerely feel bad that you love in an unconventional way. you cant change the way you feel and wouldnt it be easier if you were just ``normal`` and loved women and people your age? life would be rosier and people wouldnt call you names..but it doesnt seem to be something you can just switch to.

rishi is right when he says that whatever the reaction people have, they wouldnt want their offspring near you. it is a scary thought. i cant condemn you but i will try to `protect` my child. Kafir had written a great piece a while back about a gay man and his wanting to be ``normal`` and trying to change his prefereces..its just not something you can turn off and on.

im leaving much out on the table and am ambivalent in my postings, only because im not sure how to approach this. its wrong for me..it doesnt seem to be wrong for you. i cant be like Kant and according to my categorical imperative decide on the one way the world should work.

the older we get, the less tolerant we are. i dont know how much longer i will hold on to these ambivalent feelings and pretend that everyone can get along regardless of all our differences.

rizvi

Hazrat Ayesha`s analogy is INCORRECT!

And here is why...

There are numerous hadiths on the age of Hazrat Ayesha at the time of her Nikkah with Prophet Muhammad. The age in those hadiths ranges from 6 years to 18 years.

Keep in mind that all hadiths are not correct as the first hadith was recorded after over 250 years of Prophet`s death. So ONLY those hadiths that DO NOT contradict Quran can be authentic.

Quran clearly states that the age for Nikah is ``Baloghat``. No body is baaligh at 6 or 9 ! So those hadiths can be thrown out. The hadith that is closest to Quran is the one that records her age at 18.

Chowk: Editors, You have to realize the difference between freedom of thought and glorification and justification of Unpunished Crimes. This article tends to be the latter.

Aziz.

I make no judgements on the nature of the arguments presented here... my message is towards Bina... if a lot of other writing, which is qualitatively shite, can be on here (and it`s great that it is), then I see no reason why this shouldn`t be on here. Why are we seeking to ban Patrick? Is it because there is a chance that people are going to be swayed by his argument?

arif

Re: Patrick.

I would not go into whether your feelings in this matter is morally right or wrong as morality by itself is up for contention. There are multiple issues such as pedophilia, child marriages, child employment, homosexuality, pre-post marital affairs, non-vegetarianism, hunting as sport, animal abuse, environmental abuse, religious chauvinism , war, racial hatred, linguistic hatred, cultural hatred and a host of others that people disagree upon time and again. The issue u touched however was a live wire since every one views it on a personal plane since everyone again would not want such a thing to happen to their own offsprings. However, all these people who object vociferously to your views would probably not feel as agitated when someone is gung-ho about nuking the whole subcontinent. ( looking at the responses for such a lunatic proposal in these same pages ). For these people nuking another country and killing millions is probably less disturbing than what u propose.

Nevertheless, on an individual plane i would also disagree with you. But , i would however not find fault with your emotions. Get some counselling and advice from a scientific view point to see if you are on the right if you start practicing your emotions. And the rule of law is against pedophilia. And that is the end point of the discussion. Don`t practice what you feel. It is unlawful , unethical and immoral. Give those kids a chance to grow up. Childhood by itself is precious. Don`t steal it from them . They have all the time for sex with others , younger or older when they feel they are essentially ready. You are certainly not doing those kids a favor by enticing them towards it....

Rishi

Dear Bina:

re ``You don`t strike me as a person who is at peace with your desires, although you are trying your hardest to come to terms with it.``

Wow! What a wonderful gift of insight. Hey, Bina, would YOU feel at peace with such desires?

Okay, tomorrow I`ll go to the psyche factory and buy myself a whole new set of desires. Any suggestions? I`ve already tried the same-age, homo- and hetero- flavours. Didn`t quite work. Deadened the taste buds a little.

``And if you have even the slightest fear that your desire for these boys might have the tiniest possibility of harming them, in ANY way, you would remove yourself from the situation, not wanting to be the source of any pain or difficulty or harm for your ``loved one``.

Lady, what are you going to feed your children when you have them? Or are you then going to sompomise on your act-only-when-absolutely-sure-of no-harm principle. Gosh, that would make life soooo boring

As for your advice (sincere though it may be), all I have to say is that condescention is quite unbecoming a would-be good writer.

Lastly, of course I wouldn`t want to be confusing homosexuality with pedophilia, though it could be argued that there are significant sociological parallels within the two. I merely brought it up in an attempt to show how something -- anything that can be so reprehensive in one age -- nay generation - can come to be accepted in another.

There`s more stuff addressed to you in another nearby posting, Bina

regards

PM

Dear Zehra,

I assume that when you say `Patrick`, you are addressing me, since he(?) and I have the same initials.

Thank you for taking the time to speak your mind bravely and rationally, WITHOUT abdication of feelings (Bina, take note!)

You sound like an interesting person I`d like to correspond with. If you`re willing, you could either post your addy here or ask Safwan for mine.

Thanks again

regards,

PM

Dear BG:

You said: ``the most problematic thing about your whole article is that your love and fascination is with adolescent boys. totally focused, totally defined, in fact, by the age of your beloved. what happens when the boy becomes a man? where does he go? and if it was a phase for him and he has moved on, where are you left? what does that say about your life? what does that say about your love? do you love the boy or his youth?

Hey, I see the light, man! Tonight I`m gonna ask God for an orientation-change, so I won`t have to bother with these trying questions any longer.

But seriously, as I`ve said in my article, the feelings do change. Whether or not I continue to love the late-adolescent in the same way depends on how much I`ve, by then, fallen in love with his personality. The physical attraction definitely wanes, but - surprise,surprise!- even pedos value emotional bonding. If that never existed in the first place (and I speak for myself here) it is unlikely the relationship would go physical, except if expressly wanted by the boy. After two people have been close enough to share their most intimate selves, there usually is a bond that lasts forever at some level. Call me a romantic. (But don`t lump me with Bina, plz. That would make her incredibly uncomfortable!)

What does it say about my life? Well, I`m a little less of a serial lover than the average bachelor in the West. This aspect of my life is, honestly, more than a little frustrating. But there are valuable lessons to be learnt, such as not to take oneself too seriously. And there`s always the bathroom and car bumpers.

Seriously? Okay, this is really going to shock readers, but… wait for this… there`s more to my life than a preoccupation with sex. I use the energy I get from fathoming the beauty of boys to live life more vigourously, more meaninging fully.

Whoa!! Got carried away, uh?

Anyways, to answer your personal query: Yes!!! I have had, and continue to have ``truly meaningful, loving, trusting relationships`` with adults. The girlfriends I`ve had (okay, only just entering plurality) were wonderful persons, and accepted me for what I am (naturally, I didn`t hide it from them). But when they found that I was merely going through the motions in bed, they knew, and I knew, it wasn`t going to work out.

On the subject, although I`ve got more friends- good friends- I can count, I should say I generally like the spontaneity, aliveness an naturalness I find in young people`s company.

Finally, you said ``by the way, all the historical references dont mean much. just because it happened at one time doesnt mean anything...``

I beg to differ. If they show that children were NOT emotionally or otherwise scarred from sexual encounters, they`re worth a great deal anthropomorphically. Homo Sapiens haven`t changed all that much in the past 500 years, y`know! Genetically, that is. `Socially` is a different subject altogether.

Best regards, and could we all please refrain from throwing cowardly flames.

PM

regards,

PM

Dear All,

Gosh, 32 replies in less than 24 hours! Much more than I bargained for (including lotsa free psychotherapy) Fortunately, most of those are flames that I feel no need to dignify.

A word to all those opposed to the idea of chowk`s hosting of this piece: Forgive me for thinking that this was supposed to be a forum for the exchange and debate of ideas; not the propagation of only politically correct ones. No matter how you feel about my contentions and about myself (which, frankly, is none of your business), you`d have to be blind, I think to label this piece sensationalist and lacking in reason. I don`t claim to have all the answers, which is why I`ve actually raised many questions. This is lot more in terms of intellectual honesty or maturity that many of the respondents have shown.

A few hurried replies to those that chose not to get hijacked by their prejudices:

Dear Fozia,(reply #5)

What ``despicable act that has ruined countless young lives`` are you referring to?

I chose to reply to this one only because you seem to have hit on what I think is the first problem people have when thinking of pedophilia, that is ``Acts`` of despicable nature. Let`s lay it out clearly: Is ``sodomy`` the first word that springs to your mind when you hear ``pedophilia`` or ``boylove``?. If, after reading my article, it still is, I guess no amount of convincing will change your perceptions. Still, let me say it again: The pedophilia I speak of is not merely about sex, lady. Not any more than romantic love is. Equating the former with child abuse is tantamount to equating the latter with rape.

Dear firaq,(#8)

Of course power dynamics underlie all relationships, not just these. But does an imbalance of power necessarily translate into an abusive relationship? Is the power balanced between parent and child? Teacher and pupil? Would they even work if it was? Does the factoring of sex into the relationship necessarily make such an unbalanced relationship exploitative? What does it say of our idea of sex apart from that we think it makes demons out of us?

Btw, there`s a flaw in the master-slave analogy you drew: Need I point it out? Children aren`t slaves. They can seek redress when they are harmed. (Note: I have always between speaking of 12 year-old-plus adolescents when addressing the issue). As I said in my article, it`s far from clear who weild`s the greater power, especially in societies where children are taught (with the right intentions, but wrong degree of discretion) to report any form of physical stroking they may be objects of.

Dear Waheed, (#11) and Bina (#32)

Waheed, Your unflattering invective seemed to be based on the presumption that: (a) children are ``not mature enough to understand complex emotions…``

I submit that society complicates the emotion with regard to sex. Sex can be enjoyed for a number of reasons, ranging, I`d say, from the purely physical to the spiritual. To deny adolescents any of these emotions because we think they`re not ready is simply patronising and, moreover, betrayal of sheer ignorance of a species` history replete with traditions accepting of, and sometimes extolling, childrens`s sexuality (in the inter- as well as intra-generational setting)

Secondly, if you`d bothered to read my personal account without blinders, you`d have found that, although I`m generally supportive of the notion of loving inter-generational sexual activity of most kinds, I haven`t had the opportunity to express my feelings physically in anything more than occasional hugs. *The classroom isn`t exactly the best place to make out, you know!)

Still, assuming I did go the extra step someday, it would be when I was reasonably sure that it wasn`t going to harm him in the long run. And how could I expect to reach reasonable assurance? Well, judging from how he felt about it, even considering the possible experiences he would have later in life (if he were in the West) that would suggest that when he was enjoying stroking and being stroked, he was actually being `abused`--no matter how good he felt.

Bina, could you kindly lose the patronising tone? Even if I were to accept your advice to seek therapy as well-intentioned, your constant insistence that my being a pedophile compromises my teaching ability is more than a little annoying. I happen to be a darn good teacher, if I may say so myself, or if I am to believe my peers and pupils of the past 12 years. You might ask our common friend for an assessment in this regard. Do I sound defensive? It`s the price I pay for continuing to believe that I CAN get through to the reader.

Bina, regarding ``feelings vs rationality``, I never understated the import of the former. Hell, that the stuff of life. But experience has taught me that feelings, especially when passionate, are unreliable guides to the truth, and need to be moderated by rationality; not vice versa. A cursory glance through the pages of history will reveal that Man has been most destructive, most cruel, when driven by unquestioned conviction. So, that, I guess is our basic difference in psyche. Can we agree that we may disagree on this?

Wildflower, (#12) thanks. Your citing of the Alabama teacher-pupil case serves to highlight perfectly how insane the system becomes when it pretends to be able to tell adolescents who they may and may not fall in love with.

regards,

PM

Dear Zahra

I`m sorry that my quite honest questions regarding Hazrat Ayesha offended you. Fact is, there was no sarcasm intended. If you`d read my article, you`d have found that I lent credence to morality of past ages. In asking if that was a case of pedophilia, I was merely inviting the reader to think, and come to see that children haven`t always been thought of as asexual sylphs.

But I`d have to say that I have scant respect for your holding that, while pedophilia is a heinous crime, it was okay for the prophet (and his followers?). What exactly do you mean when you say I used that incident out of context``? Do you care to contextualize it for us? I suspect you would have hard time if you stuck to your first contention that pedophilia is evil.

Further, you said: ``It is quite ironical that you are a teacher. I would suggest that you focus on the impact a teacher can have on the lives of his students.``

Funny you (and many others should find irony in my being a teacher). At the risk of sounding crazy again, I purport that being a teacher might have actually been a cause of this `malady`. You see, it was when I found myself willing to take a more personal interest in my students (no, no, completely non-sexual!) that I found myself being drawn more towards them. Their hearts, their minds, and lastly, their bodies too, I guess) Now, I`m not about to elevate this observation to the level of hypothesis, but it would be interesting to ask why pedophiles are (as is often claimed by pedo-police) over represented in the teaching and other `caring` professions. Only the bigoted would be sure which is cause and which effect, I think.

On a lighter note, how`s Sonia doing? Has she had the b-m transplant yet? My prayers are with her/you.

Regards,

PM

PM:

It is obvious that you and I are not going to see eye to eye on this issue. I do not want to enter into a debate with you, either, because I don`t think either one of us is going to convince the other. But, let me make a few final points here.

First, I don`t feel this is a homosexuality issue at all. If you were female, or if your objects of desire were female, I would find it equally wrong. So please don`t cloud the issue by bringing homosexuality into it.

Secondly, I think you are making a mistake by discounting ``feelings`` in favor of ``Rationality``. Feelings are as important if not more important than thoughts are for our survival, our well-being, and coping with the world. They serve as our guideposts, they can serve as much more accurate warning signals, and their suppression can lead to much misery and psychological and physiological distress. We bring it upon ourselves when we try to override or discount them or convince ourselves that they are wrong or misplaced. So please don`t tell me that my feelings are in conflict with my rationality or intelligence. If anything, they are the base that underlies that intelligence, and I have learned to trust them implicitly throughout my life.

I`m sure you`re going to tell me that your feelings for these boys are as trustworthy and as dependable. But in reading your piece, and other posts on Chowk, I would say that you are deeply conflicted about this element of your life. You don`t strike me as a person who is at peace with your desires, although you are trying your hardest to come to terms with it.

Finally, if you truly feel love and concern for this boy or any other boy in your care, you should want to protect him from any possible source of harm. And if you have even the slightest fear that your desire for these boys might have the tiniest possibility of harming them, in ANY way, you would remove yourself from the situation, not wanting to be the source of any pain or difficulty or harm for your ``loved one``.

My sincere advice to you is to resign from your teaching post, as you know you are on a slippery slope placing yourself in the midst of so much temptation, and get yourself into immediate therapy with a counsellor who is experienced in treating individuals with sexual issues, dysfunction, abuse, pedophelia, whatever the PC term for it is.

Bina.

CHOWK does not need this garbage!
What is the point of publishing such trash?
Is CHOWK starved for attention?

Ras

there are going to be so many replies to this article and so many replies that will be missed and so many comments ( most inappropiate ) that will be thrown back and forth. i call for A: respect for all opinions B: fairness in hearing everyone out. thats all..common chowk courtesy. i commend chowk for publishing this article..it has issues that most hide under carpets and not discuss.

and now my point. i was talking abount the article with my sister, and i was saying how i just could not condemn the author for his feelings..i just couldnt. i said there was no one universal right or wrong that we all should follow. i thought she would agree with me and she looked at me like i was crazy when i said i understood how the author felt to some ( a limited perhaps) degree. i said that there was tons of literature (mostly ancient) that extols the beauty of boys, and i see it. looking at her face, i laffed and was like, great, now you think im a pedophile..but i see it. the flip side, as she pointed out is, as a woman, i wont be considered a pedophile. book out there for people interested, fiction, called ``a much younger man``. its the womans story on younger men.

before the mud slinging starts, ( and from much practice and experiance on chowk) some clarifications must follow. i dont have sex with younger men, ive never hit on a younger man, and i dont lust after younger men. i dont however, see anything wrong with it. i understand it.

i do not however, as BG pointed out, understand the intellectual or emotional bond one can form with a partner so much younger..waiting for your answer patrick.

rizvi

To PM:

Thank God I can take the plea that ``lack of time`` came to my savior and I did not read this unending piece. Though quickly browsing through the replies, it seemed that you have tried to justify your writings with quite long and unending quotes.

What really caught my attention was the reference to Hazrat Ayesha ? Firstly, the reference was out of context. Secondly, the sarcasm was out of place. Thirdly, there are many things that happened in the Prophets` lives that an ordinary human being cannot imagine or take that much pressure. In light of that, I will say please be careful when you use such analogies.

Do you mind quoting any references from the Bible in favor of the acts that you have very carefully cared to describe ?

It is quite ironical that you are a teacher. I would suggest that you focus on the impact a teacher can have on the lives of his students.

Kindly do care to read the impact that real teachings can have on human minds. Let`s not get into religion but look into the Soofia-ae-Karam`s lives and review the sessions of learning the students will have from the teachers i.e in ways of leading life etc.

It is ironical you could not impart a positive influence on your students and happened to confuse yourself on what should be teachings!

Note: I just thought of writing the above as your argument had very little weight. Though you have cared to build very fine walls of defense around it.

PM:

You say, ``the readership on this site after all, prides itself on being open minded and liberal...`` Yes, perhaps, but NOT stupid!

This is the closest to intellectual masturbation I have witnessed on Page 1. (Are we in a ratings war?)

Here is my TOP TEN LIST after your libido tires of young boys.

10: DESIGN A PIN FOR YOUR ILK AND PIN THEM ON EVERY THIRD BEARD.
9: GROW WATERMELONS FROM SEED & MAKE LOVE WITH THEM AS THEY RIPEN.
8: OPEN AN INDO-PAK PEDOPHILE ANONYMOUS.
7: ORGANISE AND I.P..A. TREK OF CENTRAL AFGHANISTAN.
6: GO FOR NEUTERED PUPPIES.
5: COME OFF MIR TAQI MIR`S UNPUBLISHED PERVERSE VERSE.
4: PLAY CATCH BALL WITH JAMAATIS AT RAIWIND.
3: WRITE LOVE POEMS TO BALASAHIB & ALTAFBHAI.
2: VISIT LOCAL LAP DANCING JOINT AND FANTASIZE ZIA DANCING ON YOUR LAP.
(and now, some drum roll, please).
1: MAKE LOVE TO BABY LAMB AND AFTERWARD TURN IT INTO A QARAQULI.

no regards,

PM:

You say, ``the readership on this site prides itself