Of Boylove and Boylovers

Soldotna,

Thank you for the unending and no doubt well-intentioned advice.

If my attraction for boys should ever take the addictive form of pedophilia you mention (I`ll be sure when it does now, thanks to your listing of symptoms et al.), I`ll know exactly where to go for help. And I`ll have you to thank. And then you can finally end up feeling you`ve done your bit to bring a modicum of morality back into society.

btw, shouldn`t you also post the same info to EVERYONE on chowk, since you really don`t have any reason to believe that my deviant attraction will turn addictive any sooner than their `normal` ones.???

Give it a think, will ya?

Now, what, exactly are we going to do about YOUR cognitive problem in distinguishing between clearly different phenomena (e.g. boylove vs child molestation). You might see a shrink, but I wouldn`t strongly advise you on that course of action. You`l probably end up learning that it has to do with some childhood trauma you suffered at the hands (and more) of your uncle when you were three, but repressed.

Alternatively, just try being a little bit more honest with yourself, and not falling prey to your prejudices.

Oh, and I think the lyrics were definitely more edifying.

bye,

Patrick (``or Peter, or whaterver``) Masih

Zehra,

hey, glad to see you`re still around.

sorry about the inadvertent mix-up.

see ya,

Patrick

Dear zAhra,

Interesting queries. Thought provoking, though, I`d have to say, not very challenging.

Although I don` feel the need to be put to this test (as I`ve nothing to prove viz. my own integrity), I won`t let you go to bed wondering either. here`s a simple solution:

YOU play MY role in the scenario, replacing the 10-11 y-o with an 18 y-o if you will. Ah, also substitute the pedophilic teacher in the story for a sex-maniac professor of sorts (y`know, we come across them in colleges all the time, don`t we?)

Now, answer the questions. Unless you`ve got a problem keeping your pant(ie)s up, your answers should corresspond to mine.

Tell me if there are flaws in the analogy. THere might yet be, in which case, I`ll take a less Socratic approach to problem.

So long,

PM

Dear zAhra,

Interesting queries. Thought provoking, though, I`d have to say, not very challenging.

Although I don` feel the need to be put to this test (as I`ve nothing to prov viz. my own integrity), I won`t let you go to bed wondering either. here`s a simple solution:

YOU play MY role in the scenario, replacing the 10-11 y-o with a 18 y-o if you will. Ah also substitute the pedophilic teacher in the story for a sex-maniac of sorts (y`know, we come across them in colleges all the time, don`t we?)

Now, answer the questions. Unless you you`ve got a problem keeping your pant(ie)s up, your answers should corresspond with mine.

Tell me if there are flaws in the analogy. THere might yet be, in which case, I`ll take a less Socratic approach to problem.

So long,

PM

patrick:

zEhra v. zAhra.

theres a difference. i interacted a while back and then have been out of the discussion. just wanted to point it out :)

rizvi

I think Soldotna has given quite a thorough analysis on the way of handling this major issue that was probably not very commonly talked about.

As far as Mr. PM is concerned:

Sir: Well, I said ``due respects`` after teaching. In one of the replies you claimed to be a good teacher. Please let me kow how will you handle the following. Now before you respond, kindly keep that in mind that being in teaching, students come to their teachers with all kinds of problems. Just like a child will go to his/her parents with his/her concerns even at times parents may not know everything but they will try to address the concerns to the best.

i.e Whenever I had my exams I was up the whhole night preparing and my parents knew I am a ``night owl`` so they will make sure that someone wakes me up in the morning and someone fixes my alarm. Though it was not necessary for them to know Oh, it is Calculus II and that contains solving all the differential equations of nth degree (for the sake of it)

Case: Now you have a young student who comes to you and asks you that he thinks you are a great teacher. And he likes the way you relate your point to the class and he feels comfortable to talk to you. Now assuming he is 10 or 11.

He is a good student in your class and you seem to think that he will do very well once he finishes school.

Suddenly, one fine day you see him in a very sad mode and kind of depressed. Considering you as his mentor, he comes to you and discusses his problem.

1. Would you be able to listen to him ?

2. Would you be able to advise him ?

3. Would you be able to listen to any problem he may want to talk to you about ?

Now let`s move to part ii;

The child comes and tells you about about another teacher who is a pedophile and the little boy does not know what to do.

4. What will you do ?

Please re-read my above questions and in light of them think that as a teacher you are ``guide`` to a student. The little boy in this whole story may not be your pupil but what if there is one with a problem and approaches you for guidance. What should be your role as a ``guide`` I will omit the word ``teacher`` from here, intentionally.

Had you been a ``criminal` excuse my strong word then it would not have made such a difference what you suggested. But your profession puts some ethical responsibilities on you. I just wanted to hear how you will handle that. That is it.

Note: It is Z.A.H.R.A , there are no ``ees``.

Thanks

Overcoming Pedophilia ... A Sexual Addiction

An open letter to Peter Mashih, The Pedophile

Pedophilia has certain traits in common with other sexual addictions. Like any

other sexual addiction it is guided by

rejection and acceptance. For instance,

the addicted masturbator, whether or

not he is a pedophile, does not have to

worry about rejection because there is

no risk of rejection when having sex

alone. The addicted pornography user

cannot be rejected by an inanimate

picture. But pedophilia is also different

because pedophilia involves a real person.

What attracts the pedophile is the fact

that he or she can control a child, thus

free him or herself from the threat of

rejection.

The pedophile will create child fantasies

or adult fantasies during the sex act with

the child. The child is usually fantasized

as an image of purity and innocence which

the pedophile feels he or she must have.

After the act most pedophiles feel

shame and disgust. For others, the shame

and disgust sets in later. And here

pedophilia takes on the characteristic of

any other addiction. Because now the

pedophile seeks the next addictive thrill

to overcome the guilt and shame of the

prior one.

There are problems in helping the

pedophile which are distinct from

counseling other sexually addicted

people. Those problems are legal and

moral.

In the moral area, the only pedophile who

can be helped is the one who

acknowledges that what he or she is

doing is morally wrong.

Legally, for the pedophile to seek help,

he or she must admit crimes of the past

to their counselor. This is extremely

painful. Because of this many pedophiles

enter counseling for other reasons in the

hope that the counselor will create an

environment in which the pedophile can

feel safe enough to speak openly and

honestly.

Pedophilia shares a tragic trait with other

sexual addictions. The tragedy that

undermines all sexual addiction is that

most people who are sexually addicted

have stopped doing their addiction for

some period of time. Then after weeks,

months, or in some cases years, they find

themselves returning to their addiction.

When the pedophile returns to the

addiction, he or she sinks into a pit of

hopelessness and doom. At the bottom of

it they fatalistically conclude that they

are sentenced to a life of pedophilia.

They come to believe that because they

returned to their addiction, they didn`t

want to stop in the first place.

What they don`t realize is that if they

had gotten better advice they probably

would be free of their addiction today.

The process of overcoming pedophilia is a

parallel challenge. Not only is there the

challenge of addiction, there is also the

necessity of developing the personality

skills so that you can function well in

adult relationships.

Can it be done?

No - if you use approaches that have

continuously failed to help sexually

addicted people, pedophiles especially.

The most common approaches -

conventional therapy and 12-step

programs - have a consistent track

record of failure in the area of sexual

addiction.

Conventional therapy fails because it

relies on the myth that you are not

responsible for your actions. It states

that because of some trauma in your past

you molest children. But the fact is

millions of people have been abused, many

worse than you. And they do not become

pedophiles.

12-step programs fail because they use

an alcohol model to treat sexual

addiction. Since alcohol is not an inborn

drive you can cold-turkey alcohol. But if

you try to cold-turkey sex you will fail.

To find an approach you can have

confidence in you must first find a

counselor you can trust. And that brings

us to the main problem. How do you know

that you can trust me? How do you know

that I can actually help you? Answer: you

don`t.

Overcoming pedophilia like anything else

in life entails risk. In order for me to

help you, you need to take a risk. The risk

is minimal, but it is still a risk. That risk is

making a phone call and asking for help.

You`ve probably never been able to talk

to anyone about this. Or the people you

have spoken to were empathetic but not

very helpful. Or they were condemnatory.

You`ve wanted help for years. This isn`t

the first time you`ve thought about

getting it.

You sometimes tell yourself that you can

live with your addiction. Other times you

tell yourself, ``I`ve got to stop.``

You may have considered suicide, you may

have attempted it.

The guilt is like a thunderstorm that

drenches your mind and feels like it will

never end.

The obsession pokes, jabs, kicks and

punches at you day and night.

You know that you will never get over the

self-hate and the disgust for as long as

you continue.

You feel that no one can be trusted.

The list of pains and miseries you

experience can go on endlessly. And it will

- until you get the help you need.

You are welcome to contact and ask for Joe Zychik at:

(310)204-4842

Monday thru Friday

9 a.m. to 9 p.m., Pacific Time

Saturday 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., Pacific Time

Dear Zehra

(re. #116)

Even accepting that

[the ``social issue`` has not been accepted as a normal part of human living],

I don`t really see what any of it has to do with my teaching. I don`t need to defend my taching prectice any more that you would have to if you taught in a male college. So there!

A reading of the first few paras of my article will indicate the need for the use of a female name. Part of the `experiment` with the readers.

``

I guess it was good that you defined that about ``your relationship to the society`` . :-) Very typical!``

Very typical???? Please explain.

regards,

PM

re. Soldtona

``Pedophila is an addiction to child sex and is treatable like addiction to cocaine or nicotine or bestiality or porno movies or gambling or chocolate. ``

You`re absolutely right. Of course, you`re following the medical establishments definition of the term, which, whatever it`s validity for the subject, has distorted the word etymologically.

If, ``after over a hundred interacts which provided some of the best psycho-babble, it did not add anything to my knowledge or redeemed my social or moral values in any way whatsoever``

it might just because, like so many other posters, you believed you knew everything there was to know about the subject. A prerequisite to ``adding to one`s knowledge`` is the belief that it can actually be done. In failing to see any distinction between the addictive pedophilia you define and and attraction for boys I have talked endlesslessy about, you`ve simply demonstrated, to my mind, a smugness that will probably never allow you to see it any differently.

btw: If all pedophilia is addictive, shouldn`t all sexual attraction (adult-adult incl) be so, by the same token? Or are you just using the unestablished sterotyped pedophile-as-pervert theory to support your scientific observations?

so long,

PM

walk away from Chowk for a week and you miss a fine hungama. my you have created some controversy. Congrats on the coveted hundred replies club, even though half of the replies are pbaly yours.

here are a few things to thin k about…

People who think seriously about these topics acknowledge that sexuality, gender identity and sex identity are not fixed entities. Instead, they range in a continuum of different desires, preferences, subjectivities etc. So the more liberally educated bunch likes to believe that they have a more fluid idea of sexuality, or that they look at these topics from a far more rational descriptive approach rather than taking a more arbitrary normative stance on such issues. However, as you demonstrate in your article, when it comes down to it there is always a foundational line that is (re-)drawn to separate the acceptable from the unacceptable, newer parameters for deviancy.

In this sense there is still a big a taboo against dealing with children’s sexuality. I am not talking about pederasty or your chosen terms like intergenerational love (more on that later). But the fact that anyone below the given age of consent is held by the state as a minor. Therefore that person is not regarded by the State to have full rights over his/her body. Of course this does not stop young people from experimenting with their bodies or engaging in sexual acts. But it does leave out a whole range formal (legal)/ informal (social) ways of dealing with such behavior. In most cases consentual experimentation is ignored as long as kids obey rules of gender identity. Gender transitive children and adolescents wind up in psychiatric treatment, or other forms of disciplining. In this sense queer kids still lack the same protections that have been obtained by the adult LBGT community. The justification for the different treatment of young people appears to be based on the supposition that between adulthood and childhood there lies a corresponding ideal boundary between mature self knowledge and a still forming identity that makes children ‘legitimate’ subjects to the disciplining powers of the school, psychiatrists office and the courts. This division between rights based liberalism is justified in the writings of classic Liberal theorists like Mill and Hegel who argued that the “common good” for society can only be served when those who are unfit to rule for themselves are ruled by those who are more adept, and civil. Historically this assumptions has been used to justify such egregious practices of colonial conquests, sterilization of minority women, and in general to impose the dominant culture’s assumptions of “appropriate” on others. In this sense I commend you for highlighting some of the inconsistencies that come with rhetoric of mainstreaming.

However, I cant help but to cringe at the fact that you are so carelessly romanticizing and idealizing “intergenerational love” in a country rife with sexual violence. Where there is so much denial of sexuality that the whole country seems ready to explode with frustration. How do you go about assessing consent for intergenerational love when there is so little information available to kids about sex, puberty, body changes. Maybe I cringe because I was violated by a tutor when I was eight years old, or how some of my closest friends can recall how they were susceptible to sexual advances by their Quran teachers, tutors, acquaintances, etc. I have tried to be reasonable in my response and not to launch into a long emotional diatribe, but I think you are presenting an overly rosy and inaccurate picture of what you call an ancient and universal desire for boys. As far as the romance and eros of pedagogical relations; i.e. the Symposium, Plato and the Greeks. You more than anyone else on this forum should understand that sexual identities are constituted by sets of social practices/conventions/discourses that are contingent to different times. To equivocate your behavior with that of the Turks or the Greeks is inaccurate. The Greeks believed that true love could only be obtained in a pedagogical relationship with young men because the prevailing idea at the time was that women were incapable of rational thought, or excellence. Hence, true partnership companionship could only be obtained by men. This belief was coalesced into pedagogical relations; proto-Foucauldian example of codifying an idea into a institutional practice. This brand of love was only open for an elite class. I seriously do hope that you take more responsibility in dealing with your students that you do in your writing.

Folks, after over a hundred interacts which provided some of the best psycho-babble, it did not add anything to my knowledge or redeemed my social or moral values in any way whatsoever.

Pedophila is an addiction to child sex and is treatable like addiction to cocaine or nicotine or bestiality or porno movies or gambling or chocolate. Addiction to pedophilia invariably shares the same basic symptoms as addiction to many other addictions. All these addictions are treatable; however, some have a longer rehab time span than others i.e. nicotine addiction is harder to kick than cocaine. Same is true of relapse after treatment.

There are thousands of addictions as evidenced by the thick CPT code books used to bill third party payers for addictions treatments. It runs from A to Z ... analingus (licking ass) to zoeusphytes (sex with imaginary gods). So, Peter Masih or whatever your name is, what you have an addiction for which you should seek medical treatment at the Shifa Clinic.

The first step in fighting any addiction is accepatance and you have taken a bold step by crying out for help here on Chowk. Now, do it!

I guess it was good that you defined that about ``your relationship to the society`` . :-) Very typical!

Would you also care to enlighten about the relevance of using a woman`s name to post the article or that is the Nick Name you use to identify controversial issues ?

Just Curiosity (?_?)

(After all you have proven your intellect by providing an indepth analysis to the social problem and plan to change the perception of people by making the ``social problem`` as a normal norm)

Well, I will be interested to know being a teacher(with due respects)how would you suggest the solution to this social issue ?

Note : Please assume that the ``social issue`` has not been accepted as a normal part of human living.

Take Care

Dear Kafir

(re. #106)Yes it was rather dumb of me not to expect many to remember Patrick Masih. That said, please let me point out that in my previous article, not the InterAct, btw, I mentioned a desire to kiss a (singular!) boy student ``full on his lips.`` He happened to be a 15-y-o I could have fallen in love with. Your changing of `boy` to `boys`, though completely innocent an action, betrays the idea that I`m on the lookout for ANY and all youth. However, the ones I`d feel comfortable enough to mention I`d like to kiss are those that have certain psycho/emotional/physical qualities (plus always the `x` factor) that makes them appealing to me in a deeper-than-usual way. I do believe the term used for this phenomena in `normal`, i.e adult, relationships is ``attractiveness``.

Okay, accuse me of pedantry. Heck being a teacher all my adult (legal term being used here) life has had to have done something to my psyche, wouldn`t you say?

``I hope you`re having fun lusting after the shirtless boys on the beaches of Karachi``

Actually, `lust` is a wrong word. Lust, I think excludes an appreciation of, a sense of, beauty. Lust is what I feel (surprise, surprise!) when I see certain adult bodies (both sexes). While there might be a sense of beauty there too, the predominant impulse is to (excuse the tastelessness) get a lay. It`s just plain sex, which is all right, but lacks the deeper, emotional union that many of the posters here have spoken of. Time an again.

So what am I saying? Well, like some of the ancient Greek philosphers, and the some of Muslim sufis I named in my article, not to mention the more recent poets that temporal pointed out, and Shakespeare and Wilde and Whitman, I find a certain deeper affinity to boys than to others. Needless (no, on second thought, NEEDED) to say, my subjective feelings are never the sole basis, or rationale, for action that involves another person. I have time an again been accused of the literary equivalent of name-dropping. All I attempt to do is show that these feelings have existed in men through the ages, and have been given expression by many of the greatest of them. This does not in itself legitimize the feelings, but if you say it doesn`t at least lend credence to, and should be a cause to start thinking deeper about, the issues, then I just cannot agree at all.

``First, a bit of advice: Drop the petulant, pedantic, sarcastic, I`ll-teach-you-a-thing-or-two-you-ignoramus attitude. It only serves to detract from your objective and inflames others passions against you. If you want others to keep their emotions in check when thinking about this issue, then you need to lose the condescending tone.

``Guilty as charged! Gee, I wonder what could have caused me to be `petulant, sarcastic and pedantic`? Sure, I`ve just been the target of the biggest cyber lynch mob attack seen on chowk; sure, I`ve had people call me pervert about a hundred times; sure, I`ve had people twisting my statements beyond recognition and then using them to attack me, sure, I`ve had a damn difficult time trying to answer impertinent, loaded questions with some seriousness; sure I`ve had people projecting their demons onto me; sure it`s been one helluva tiring experience these past four days, but why should I react with petulance, or sarcasm or pedantry? After all, it`s not like I`m really human or anything, uh? I`m this cold, impersonal block of logic that only uses its intelligence in defense of the indefensible, right? Oh, and to answer questions troubling others, too.

What can I say? I`m reeelly reeelly sorry.

(Hey Bina, what grade do I get for that bit of prose?)

``Tsk, tsk. Wasn`t such presumptuousness one of your major rants throughout this response session?``

There`s a difference between this form of honest inquiry and the presumptuousness exhibited by my detractors. Theirs was always judgmental and offensive in design.

(...continued on post below..)

re: Kafir (...continued..)

``Please, Patrick, don`t get so defensive. I never accused YOU of being a predator. I simply said I wasn`t convinced that children are capable of giving informed and mature consent in matters of sex.``

Actually, Kafir, my defensiveness was with regard to your contention that (#87) ``However, you have failed to convince me (and probably others) that the nature of your relationships with your boylovers is consensual and not coerced. If your relationships are truly consensual and you can prove that, then we can discuss the issue further``

SR has, I think treated this matter of onus-of-proof masterfully already, so I won`t ``rant on``

``Well, well. How convenient for you. Why, pray tell, should pregnancy be a problem for heterosexual pedophilia if 90-95% of pedophilia (according to you) involves non-penetrative sex?``

Those figures, (btw, from research by D.J. West and E. Brongersma- - sorry can`t provide complete reference, but run a search on the net. Also, please refer to my extract of the Newspaper Article in my piece) RELATE TO MAN-BOY RELATIONSHIPS. My, how easy it is for some to confuse issues!

Okay, I`ll stop with the petulance already. But it was quid pro quo, you`d have to say.

Kafir, you seem to be jumping to ridicule me for (presumably) supporting one taboo practice but not another. Where did that come from? I`ve always said we need to go into this matter with both heart and mind. I`ve provided rational arguments (to my mind anyway) why man-boy relationships may be acceptable, even desirable. The arguments gave recognition both to subjective feelings as well as the weight of history and researched findings. On the issue of (cross-gender) incest, lacking both the feelings as well as `objective` evidence, the jury is out for me. While I, still a product of my environment (believe it or not), have problems accepting it, I don`t condemn it whole-heartedly either. This is hardly a cognitive `convenience`, as you suggest it is.

``As for incest, in your world of unrestricted child sex, I would MUCH rather go to a loving parent to learn about sex than to a stranger. Wouldn`t you, buddy? If not, why not?``

Leaving aside the ridiculous `charge` of advocating ``unrestricted child sex`` that `conveniently` makes no mention of the subtler issues addressed (age, type of sexual activity, consent), let me repeat what I said in my response to your query about choice of senior partner: ``To each his own, buddy``. Where I, Patrick Masih, would go, is really irrelevant to the issue. (btw, my same question to you was purely Socratic- - I answered it anyway.). And wherever did that bit about `stranger` come in? If it hasn`t yet sunk in properly, Mr. Kafir, MY ARTICLE WAS ABOUT LOVING, NUTURING RELATIONSHIPS``. And it doesn`t take a particularly astute sociolological bent of mind to notice that, especially in the West, familial relationships, father-son relationships, are increasingly disharmonious (for whatever reasons) and that boys often find they can better relate to, and find comfort in the company of, other men. At the risk of being presumptuous again, I ask you to please ask yourself why, at this very instant, you are saying ``Yeah, other men out to exploit!``. They could be other men out to love and be loved)

(...continued on post below..)

re: Kafir (continuation of posting)..

``Yes, Patrick, do think about it a while, for the proof is in the praxis. Do you envision a world where parents will gladly send their boys off to get sexual training with some pedophile organization in their community?``

I wouldn`t favour ``sending offs`` because I think the `child` should be under no compulsion. Still, you might care to read up on Spartan and Athenian civilization. in this regard.

``Or will the parents host a dinner party inviting all the pedophiles in their neighborhood for a lovely evening in which their son will decide which lucky man gets to be his sexual tutor? Hmm...not likely, eh?``

Not in fifty years, buddy. But then, looking backwards, Plato`s Republic would`ve had something pretty much on these lines. Also, a reading of court practices of the Ottoman empire might interest you, where the finest (mentally and otherwise) boys were groomed for statesmanship from a very early age, under mentors who taught them EVERYTHING. Actually, as with the (Muslim) seminaries in Morocco I mentioned earlier, sex was actually deemed to facilitate the pedagogical experience. Does all this sound startling to you? Maybe because you`re seeing the sexual activity out of context, and in a vacuum. While I do still hold that sex isn`t inherently bad for children, my contention has always been (sidetracked sometimes by having to answer `clever` questions) that sex in A LOVING, NUTRUING REALTIONSHIP across the generations need not harm the adolescent (I said roughly 12-y-o plus) and can often be beneficial. If I were living in Ancient Greece, I`d only be stating the obvious.

You contend that my utopia is .. ..``a world in which unhealthy families with distanced sons become a NECESSITY for the fulfillment of your sexual needs?``

Sexual. Sexual. Sexual. Get over it already! Try: bonding, nurturing, teaching, playing with, listening to, laughing with . okay, and then add loving (in all senses). But no, I think it should NOT be a necessity, any more than an unhappy, dysfunctional family background is a pre-requisite for eloping. Other, quite `neutral`, factors could create the situations for this to happen.

On `spiritual sex`: Well, from the Dionysian and Bacchanalian rites of Ancient Greece, to the Karma Sutra experience in India, down to any number of New Age teachings in our age, sex has been linked with spirituality (of whatever kind.). Islam, and Christianity, it must be said, see sex in a much narrower, utilitarian light, for better or worse.

``Do you somehow fondle the boy`s spirit instead of his penis??``

Oh, well… takes all kinds. Now this is disappointing. Really. Because I though your were in this for serious debate. Turns out you`re no less a Waheed Mailk in liberal accoutrements. Damn, and to think I`ve just spend two hours typing this out without reading your last line!

Then again, maybe we could examine the use of phallic symbols as religious motifs in Greek, Polynesian and early Mediterranean civilizations. Indian too. Gotcha!

So long buddy,

PM

Dear Temporal

The soap`s certainly on my face.

I over-reacted to your postings and completely missed your point. I apologize.

Having done that, I would ask you if, after standing by and watching the exchanges in this InterAct, you still feel that my article had no place on ``your second home``

I think the issues my article I touched on relate to all our lives. Sex certainly does and I think I went beyond blowing a trumpet for boylove to raising the issues of children`s rights, insidious media stereotyping, the role of the state in our private lives. Tell me that these issues do not concern us all.

Btw, the unsolicited help with the `fragmentation` problem was just silly. Hope you were able to laugh it off.

Regards,

PM

Btw: One reason I, for one, would read your ``I Love Goats`` with an open mind: I was touched by Gorrillas in the Mist.