His Gift

re. Kafir (#63 or 64)

[Personally, I find the humanity of these men to be much more inspiring than their claims of divinity. Thus, people like Jesus, Mohammad, the Buddha, the Bab, Baha`u`llah, and others who exemplified compassion, justice, selflessness, and love in their lives become more influential and respected in history than other self-serving individuals like David Koresh or Jim Jones. But again, it`s their HUMANITY that sets them apart, not their claim to divinity. And in our lives, I`m sure we all know people who inspire us to love others and act selflessly - our mothers, fathers, dear friends, teachers. Do they need to claim divine inspiration for us to listen to their ideas and learn from their actions? Does it really matter if they do or don`t?]

Man, this is a spontaneous act of love at work here. I`m inspired, and reminded of something a dude named Mainonides said about 700 years ago: ``If God didn`t exist in Man, he never did exist at all.``

At the risk of sounding condescending, please let me say that I like the way you think. Well...usually. Lately.

Kafir:

Thanks for your clarification. I agree with much of what you have said in your previous response.

I do appreciate your jurrat-e-kufr. Far better than religion of paravee e kizb o raya.

BTW what is meant by ``mais je ne peux pas comprendre la perse`` ?

The reason for excluding Bhudda, was that I wasn`t sure if he ever claimed divinity in the same way as some other people on your list did. Most bhudists regard bhudism as a way of life rather than a religion or a divine faith.

As for accomodating Bhudda`s teachings within Islamic dogma, I don`t know mate! I don`t think reincarnation, for example, has any place in Islamic faith. The fact that Bhudda precedes the `seal of the prophtes`is also irrelevent.

Cheers,

Fairdinkum

Dear Jenab-e-fairdinkum,

Thanks for the compliment, mais je ne peux pas comprendre la perse.

``Apart from the fact that they all claimed some form of metaphysical or divine source of inspiration, not much else is common between Mohammad and people like Mani, the Bab, Baha`u`llah, Joseph Smith, Sun Young Moon, Jim Jones, and David Koresh. I have deliberately excluded Gautama Siddhartha (Bhudda) from the group.``

Why exclude the Buddha? Just because his claims to divine inspiration/enlightenment can be accommodated within Islamic dogma (since he precedes the `seal of the prophtes`) while the others cannot?

``Would you care to identify your particular approach or methodology you have used to arrive at the conclusion that Mohammad`s thoughts and ideas (Quran, hadiths, and his various speeches etc.), his influence on history of mankind etc., is [sic] in no way better than for example, David Koresh`s?``

I never said that Mohammad`s ideas and influence were equivalent to Koresh`s. I`m merely making the point that as mere mortals ourselves, we have no way of experiencing the divine inspiration the self-proclaimed prophets claim to have access to, so we have no way of verifying the truth of the matter. We cannot perform the experiment ourselves.

What we can do, though, is look at the lives of these individuals and determine the nature of their character through their actions and teachings. We can use our own reason and experience to determine whether their teachings are true and appropriate for own own lives. Personally, I find the humanity of these men to be much more inspiring than their claims of divinity. Thus, people like Jesus, Mohammad, the Buddha, the Bab, Baha`u`llah, and others who exemplified compassion, justice, selflessness, and love in their lives become more influential and respected in history than other self-serving individuals like David Koresh or Jim Jones. But again, it`s their HUMANITY that sets them apart, not their claim to divinity. And in our lives, I`m sure we all know people who inspire us to love others and act selflessly - our mothers, fathers, dear friends, teachers. Do they need to claim divine inspiration for us to listen to their ideas and learn from their actions? Does it really matter if they do or don`t?

Dar Jalil az Mo-allem e Bozoorgvar

Kafir:

First of all pardon me for my pathetic English. It is my second language, and given my Peela school background, I am sure you`d be kind enough to overlook my weakness.

``Sorry, but as a non-religious person, I cannot buy your distinction between `wahi` and other paranornal phenomena such as psychic prediction, UFOs, alien abductions, magic, etc. ``

Sure! You, as a non-religious, enlightened free-thinker, are not supposed to buy this kind of crap from us (religious people).

``Besides, many others throughout history have claimed access to some metaphysical or divine source of inspiration (such as Mani, Gautama Siddhartha, the Bab, Baha`u`llah, Joseph Smith, Sun Young Moon, Jim Jones, David Koresh). Why should their claims be discounted as fraudulent while those of Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and other Quranic figures be accepted? Isn`t that intellectually unfair? ``

Well, I don`t know if regarding David Koresh or Jim Jones as being in the same class of people as Mohammad is intellectually fair?

Apart from the fact that they all claimed some form of metaphysical or divine source of inspiration, not much else is common between Mohammad and people like Mani, the Bab, Baha`u`llah, Joseph Smith, Sun Young Moon, Jim Jones, and David Koresh. I have deliberately excluded Gautama Siddhartha (Bhudda) from the group.

As an enlightened, non-religious free-thinker, and a firm believer in logic and reason, you would know that it is an important scientific concept to review multiple approaches to the understanding of something in order to arrive at a particular methodology. Having a correct method in order to discover the truth of an issue is more important than having a philosophy, or being talented.

Would you care to identify your particular approach or methodology you have used to arrive at the conclusion that Mohammad`s thoughts and ideas (Quran, hadiths, and his various speeches etc.), his influence on history of mankind etc., is in no way better than for example, David Koresh`s?

Durdana:

My friend, there is a vast difference between inadvertently saying something I didn`t mean to say, and being a hypocrite. As for my dislike of doctors; on the contrary, there are many doctors in my family and I have the greatest respect for them. But it is through them and other friends who are doctors that I know just how human, and fallible, doctors are. Mistakes happen all the time. I refer you to last Sunday`s cover story of the Dawn Magazine, which describes a pitiful situation in the mental health field in Pakistan. And such problems are not restricted to Pakistan alone.

Kafir:
I am far too impatient a person to teach English to anyone!

Hi Kafir,

(er.. is `Hi` allowed on this forum? Haven`t seen it used before)

(re. #58)

[I predict that you will all enroll in a remedial English class taught by PM and Bina (that is, if they don`t scratch each other`s eyes out before you get to diagramming sentences...)]

Fun-nee!. Really! But, as a matter of fact, I happen to like Bina Shah the writer. Okay, her last bit of u-ing didn`t wash with me, but hey, Pobody`s Nerfect, right!?

re.

[There`s a lot of evidence out there to suggest that there`s truth to the matter. If time is an illusion, then the future, present, and past coexist and may be accessible to some faculty of the human mind that we have not yet discovered. Of course, this is all conjecture (from someone very ignorant of physics), but it`s worth thinking about, no?]

Accuse me of being pedantic again, buddy, but see, you can`t use metaphysics (the ``Time is an Illusion...`` bit) in an attempt to scientifically (even wholly theoretically) lend credence to those arguments of time travel etc. Sure, it`s worth spending endless hours of reverie on, and the mere contemplation of the fourth-dimension thingy is enough to give you an intellectual high, but that, I think, is as far as it can go. For now.

Hey, like every die-hard sceptic, I`m (inwardly) waiting to be proven wrong. I`d LOVE to believe in the supernatural-- miracles, time-travel, honest Pakistani politicians.

re. Durdana (#57)

(Phew!). Thanks. Got away lightly.

regards

PM

Re: fairdinkum et al.

Sorry, but as a non-religious person, I cannot buy your distinction between `wahi` and other paranornal phenomena such as psychic prediction, UFOs, alien abductions, magic, etc. All are based on the testimony of the person(s) experiencing the phenomenon and cannot be confirmed by third parties. The rest of us `non-initiated` ones just have to take their word for it (or not). Your elevating `wahi` to some surperior, divine status is purely based on your particular religious convictions and not on any reasonable argument.

Besides, many others throughout history have claimed access to some metaphysical or divine source of inspiration (such as Mani, Gautama Siddhartha, the Bab, Baha`u`llah, Joseph Smith, Sun Young Moon, Jim Jones, David Koresh). Why should their claims be discounted as fraudulent while those of Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and other Quranic figures be accepted? Isn`t that intellectually unfair?

Re: PM

I agree with much of what you say. I, too, believe that all phenomena fall within a natural law, but the reason so many of them seem inexplicable is because we haven`t broadened our understanding of natural law enough to encompass them. As for predicting the future, I wouldn`t be so quick to dismiss such occurrences as hoaxes. There`s a lot of evidence out there to suggest that there`s truth to the matter. If time is an illusion, then the future, present, and past coexist and may be accessible to some faculty of the human mind that we have not yet discovered. Of course, this is all conjecture (from someone very ignorant of physics), but it`s worth thinking about, no?

Re: all

I predict that you will all enroll in a remedial English class taught by PM and Bina (that is, if they don`t scratch each other`s eyes out before you get to diagramming sentences...)

P.M.& BINA # 54,

```` This was meant to show that David might not actually be a candidate for

medication/therapy after all...``

Thats rules OUT about any form of medical intervention Bina,how do you support your`` not having totally,categorically ruled out treatment``,or words to that effect, etc.,`` I did not mean to say that David categorically needed NO therapy

or medication. I mean to say that the doctor should not have jumped to ....

You also harbour for some reason resentment against doctors whom you assume to be less inteligent than a writer like you.I realize doctors make mistakes but thanks to there higher selection process & no dearth of brain in this field,these mistakes are very few (a low % compared to probability of frequent mistakes)and they happen due to work load & not due to lack of knowledge nor due competence, far above us ``amateures``.

P M since your negligence didnt harm a critical patient & for the first time you were right to repeatedly point the hypocricy in her(Binas) writing,so for that you are pardoned with honorable discharge!

Oops, let me clarify what I meant - and what Studebaker and PM have pointed out - that my comments about the symptoms of many different illnesses was not as clear as it should have been.

Given David`s many symptoms which were only maybe one or two of the symptoms of OCD, anxiety, personality disorder, etc., I did not mean to say that David categorically needed NO therapy or medication. I mean to say that the doctor should not have jumped to quick conclusions and given him a pill (remember it`s never stated what medication he`s given) on the basis of just one meeting. I guess I wanted to say that many practitioners don`t observe the rules of diagnosis as carefully as they should.

A careful psychologist or psychiatrist would recommend therapy sessions as well as medication only if the symptoms persisted for several weeks or months.

The fact that David turns out to not have a mental disease (well...apart from thinking that he`s psychic, of course :) is the happy luck of fiction. And probably not well born out in real life... but then again, it is just a story!

Sorry for the confusion!

re. Bina:

(#9): ``This was meant to show that David might not actually be a candidate for medication/therapy after all...``

I`m afraid this doesn`t aquare well with your `clarification` in post #55. Not to me anyway.

regards,

re. Durdana (#53)

``P.M.urf Sabia Ahmed,YOU ARE TOO LATE & TOO LITTLE!``

Guilty as charged! When is sentencing, Ms. Torquemada??

regards,

P.M.#51,52

Patrick ,you must have been exhausted from your record breaking post recently to wake up now!Your posta are 30 post behind and what you suggest has been done 30 post ago by studebaker #11

..``That is a very ``rural``attitude to words a disease.Maybe personality

disorder excluding all other possible conditions,anxiety ,schozophrenia

& O C D have ground breaking psycho pharmological agents& if you are

averse to any ``drug``.you should have not EXCLUDED atleast PSYCHO THERAPY``

P.M.urf Sabia Ahmed,YOU ARE TOO LATE & TOO LITTLE!

Fully agree with Ibne Sina`s contention that the only reason anyone could find this ``Fascinating and gripping! One more for Bina Shah.:-)``

is lack of excitement in their mundane lives.

I appreciate the (little) literary quality of the article. Bina seems to improve stylistically with every contribution (this one, however, breaking that trend, in my book), but puhleez! don`t start to give this essentially fictional piece any semblance of credulity. (Is comparisons to `events` recorded thousands of years ago by superstitious semi-literates the best one can do to this end?)

Sure, there are people who are so `tuned into` others and the environment that they can perform feats considered paranormal (at least until someone comes up with logical explanations!). Reading thoughts and minds? What`s so far out about that? We already acknowledge that some people can read others like books. Maybe the difference between their ability and the paranormal is just one of degree. But seeing the future and stuff... c`mon... give us a break already. Even Stephen Hawking hasn`t come up with a credible theoretical framework for time travel. It`s all great fun to read about, but let`s not let suspend disbelief so long we forget that most of yesterday`s miracles are now explainable within (an ever-expanding) Natural Law, or disposed off in that dustbin labelled Hoaxes.

regards,

PM

re. Bina (#9):

``Interestingly enough, the ``symptoms`` David presents can`t be pinned down to any one mental illness. At first he seems to display a generalized anxiety disorder, then symptoms of OCD, displacement (which could be attributed to any one of the borderline personality disorders), and finally schizophrenia. This was meant to show that David might not actually be a candidate for medication/therapy after all...``

So, lemme get this straight, now: The exhibition of MULTIPLE (as opposed to ONE) character disorders/ neuroses renders therapy unnecessary. (!!!)

This from one who not long ago recommended psychiatric help to someone falling in love with adolescents...

Sheesh, now I`ve heard it all!

BINA#47

`` . I`m no science graduate, though, so that could be a totally laughable

premise :) ``

Come again!didnt you say you were PSYCHOLOGY student here in USA & not only had to memorize mental illness medications used in them ?

``, but I was a psychology student in college and grad school. I

took classes in Abnormal Psych, Biopsychology, and Physiological

Psychology. We had to memorize the names of all the mental disorders,

their symptoms, and all the prescription drugs for our exams. ``Post#9 dt.13 th Sept.

Now i dont know If Psychology is not science,then Economics,etc should be considered humanities which in my days only loser students studied!!!!

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Fozia:

I would say that science as it stands today is unable to explain the phenomenon of ``wahi`` as occurred with the prophets. Perhaps one day if science ever evolves enough to encompass the realms of the spiritual, there will be ways to measure the higher energy levels that revelations, dreams, and other experiences occupy.

I too have had friends and my own experiences where dreams provide knowledge that defies all logic.

Anarchistan: a lot of people say they are able to tell when someone is going to call them, when someone close to them but not geographically present is upset etc. etc. I would say it is our ``intuition`` at work here, which is also knows as the sixth sense (no, I haven`t seen that movie yet). Perhaps ``intuition`` can pick up energy that travels at different levels than the level our eyes or ears or skin picks up energy at... I`m no science graduate, though, so that could be a totally laughable premise :)

Zahra: Sorry, my day job prevents me from having more time to write at those levels of intensity more often.

- Bina.

Fozia & Bina:

Yes, I do agree that ``wahi`` can not be explained in scientific or rational terms, but that is the only point common between paranormal events and ``wahi``. And I do understand the definition of paranormal. Things are a bit more clearer for all of us now. Well, for me anyway.

Paranormal covers activities or events such as:

Unexplained psychic events (as unexplainable to the psychic as they are to the science).

Magic

Witch Craft

UFO abductions etc. etc.

You can infer by strictly sticking to the definition of paranormal that “wahi” is a paranormal event or as Bina puts it,

“a paranormal event which is nonetheless absolutely true and authentic and coming from God.”

But, in my view (as a Muslim), to classify “wahi” and mysterious, unexplained experiences of the psychics, Magic, Witch Craft, UFO abductions etc. under the one term of “paranormal” would be a great injustice.

“Wahi” is an experience which has a class of its own (see Bina`s post on wahi). It should not be classified under “paranormal events” to avoid confusion between mysterious, and unexplainable psychic experiences, Magic, etc. and “wahi”. That is all I am trying to say.

I do appreciate the patience, and kindness with which you guys have responded to my replies.

It seems that smart, streetwise, and sometimes quite vicious comments are in vogue at this joint. Thank you both for refraining from using such language.

Cheers,

Fairdinkum

Mr. Baker:

Hello! Firstly rest assured that I am convinced on your superb humor. (Applause)!!!

Secondly, the verses are read in two different ways:

Bataan as Baa`tain

Taluk as Tuk

As you come from the origin of these verses, therefore I will leave it to you to figure out your preference. I have read them in my school years in both ways. Though the Taluk sounding ones were from the old books.

Your genuine concern on my understanding your words is well noted. I was just ignoring it previously as it was hard to read. Then I went back and re-read your verse and realized probably you were coming up with something very serious and my laughter(Probably Bae-Mauqaa`) caused some anguish and concern. In fact, I wrote my thoughts on that and it seemed my ``genuine thoughts`` were eaten by Chowk and you were just asked to correct your Hijj`ae of Hansee. Well, you seem to be pretty well protected here :-) besides some others.

So keep on exercising your right to express yourself clearly.

Personally, I am working on the brevity of my thoughts whereas I will suggest you to checkout the clarity of yours (I am sure your ego will withstand the load )

Regards

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Bina:

Well, seems like there was some misunderstanding on your behalf. I just thought I will also enlighten the effects of the ``mediocre`` writings of women who are damn accomplished in their respective fields in IOPWE.

They are role models in their areas and by the Grace of God their existance ``though mediocre - (as per your childish view)`` as they provide guidance and assistance to their fellow Pakistani Women besides being well acknowledged in their respective fields.

Your response was childish where you immediately jumped on comparison. If a person is secure in his/herself they will not need ego boosters.

I do not write as I strategize the articles that need to be PUT FORTH or thoughts that need to be given words. So when a female student in a university reads that she is not there by herself.

Though I plan to retire as a writer. Now it has been some time that my words of wisdom did not get a chance to be in black and white. But thinkers, do that in their heads. They evolve and dissolve in their heads. And then they recite quite often :-)

Re: STATESMAN and Studebaker

both are Indian Muslims, from calcutta, now in the US, who also write distinctly alike and who hold almost alike views.

Do u guys know each other :)

-- Rishi

Re: Statesman

Good for you

Rishi

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wow. haven`t had so many english lessons since second grade language arts.

thanks djiin, you`ve done us all a service. you know, in some countries they kill your firstborn for incorrect usage of `that.`

now, premonitions really interest me. not the hard-core psychic in the story or prophet thing or whatever. like when the phone rings, and you know who it is before you pick it up. or you know when something terrible up is about to happen, that sinking feeling in your stomach. deja vu and all that.

is it some sort latent instinct left over from our ancestors, who really needed it to survive? maybe the mind is constantly calculating probablilities, so that when we do get a premonition, it is simply the most likely outcome of an event (who`s calling me?) as determined by our brain.

FAIR DINKUM #32

There is different level of understanding as we age from primary school to college & there after.Even though some sort of credible scientific explanation for our conducts is helpful to convince the starry eyed,curious,eager to learn.teens .Eg. movement of Namaz is taught as as good low aerobics with Range of Motion exercise.It may be a fact ,i would DISCOURAGE such emphasis on JUSTIFYING all religous activities.There is scientific explanation of all Islamic beliefs,but even though selective use of them specially for the ``Student``kind is necessary,it should be an exception rather than a rule.

RISHI #34

I DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT?????I cant understand incoherent,wrongfully juxtapositioned phrases & innappropriate use of english words.

fairdinkum,

When I made my comment, I was not trying to explain all paranormal activity in the light of Islam. Bina understood the context I meant in very well - basically that the revelations that Prophets experience are definatatly not something that can be explained rationally.

I`ll repeat the definition Bina presented of ``paranormal``:

Paranormal - Beyond the scope of normal scientific investigation etc.`` (Oxford Dictionary and Usage Guide of the English Language)

Read the definition carefully, it simply states paranormal is beyond the scope of normal scientific investigation. Obviously a revelation from God is not something that can be explained scientifically.

If one just steps back for a second and tries to

imagine one of the people who was with the Prophet (saw) as he experienced a revelation, I think it`s possible to see how it would be categorized as a ``paranormal`` event in modern day terms.

For example, I`ve read accounts that during a revelation, the Prophet (saw) all of sudden stopped whatever he was doing, breaking into a cold sweat and staring at one position in the sky.

The Prophet (saw) himself is seeing the Angel Gabriel speaking to him. The other people around simply see the Prophet in an altered state of mind and staring into the open. From the viewpoint of the ordinary person this is a ``supernatural`` or ``paranormal`` event.

Now as a Muslim, I`m going to believe that the Prophet`s paranormal event was in fact a real vision from God through the Angel Gabriel.

A Non-Muslim may disagree and just think he was Hallucinating.

This is just terminology, it doesn`t take away from the spiritual reality of Allah and his Messengers.

Modern day ``psychics``, UFO abductions etc can also be classified as paranormal events due to their inexplicability in scientific terms. The source of their ``vision`` however is very different than that of the Prophets.

It could be mental illness, or it could be something else too. Even in Islam, it is accepted that ordinary human beings could see jinns etc if they enter the proper spiritual level.

Surah Al-Falaq (#113) and Al-Falaq (#114) in fact

discuss witchcraft/Black magic, jinns. We as Muslims are told to recite these verses to protect ourselves from the black magic and jinns.

You can read these surahs online at:

http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/quran/noble/nobe113.htm

and

http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/quran/noble/nobe114.htm

Istikharahs are another example of a supernatural/paranormal activity that some of us ordinary Muslims undertake in. I know personally of several people who`ve had dreams and visions after Istikharahs and other duas that really defy all logic yet are incredibly correct.

Regards,

Fozia

Zahra:

I don`t think I was taking it personally (ok, well maybe just a little bit), but I really was responding to your comment about ``The ones who have been writing here are just one side of the picture there is another side far more intense, genuine and thought provoking.`` Then you referred to the Women Engineers` Newsletter so I thought that was what you were referring to. And giving you my opinions on it as far as its contents being ``intense, genuine, and thought provoking``. Don`t take it so personally, my dear... after all, ``people may make fun of your dreams, your thoughts, your arguments...Hey, that is life``.

As for this article being lightweight, well, if I wrote the same thing again and again, or rather, a different version of the same theme again and again, you (the reader) and I (the author) would both get bored. I like to stretch myself by experimenting with many types of writing: fiction, essays, poetry - and also with different voices, points of views, etc. I cannot serve up what everyone always expects; that would be not half as much fun!

Fairdinkum:
Please see reply #28 which has an extensive defition of ``wahi`` and the various hadiths and verses from Quran to support it. I still fail to see how these experiences cannot be classified as paranormal. Remember, we are not debating their veracity or even their spiritual weight (that is agreed to be infinitely more than any regular human being). Definitely the experiences go beyond normal scientific measures, which is all I am trying to say here!

re: STATESMAN

hmm,, looks like the message reached someone atleast, even though it was not directed at anybody in particular.

Thanx

-- Rishi

Bina:

I think you took it quite personally. I have read a few fine articles from your side and therefore expected you to have maintained the intensity. This was a little light weight one!

As far as IOPWEians articles in the newsletter are concerned, none are writers. They are in fact quite far from writing articles. The group is there to motivate the other women from Pakistan who want to pursue higher education in Science and Tech and want to see role models and by the Grace of God our membership is growing. Many times we get a line or two from women.

So do not go by the words only, go by the thought behind the posting. As far as critique is concerned, I never claimed that please go and read my masterpiece work. I just pointed towards the women who are not great writers but are in Science and Tech Fields and still made an effort to convey their message. The one who can write and have the time to do so should do a better job!

Hope I am clear.

The following verse is something that I rellay like by Iqbal:

Bina:

“What I did say was that what the prophets experienced could be classified as paranormal.

``Paranormal - Beyond the scope of normal scientific investigation etc.`` (Oxford Dictionary and Usage Guide of the English Language)”

I understand that, and no I did not leap. It is regretful that you got the impression that I tried to misconstrue you.

However, I’d have to stress the point that there is no relation between “paranormal”, as defined by the Oxford Dictionary and Usage Guide of the English Language, and “wahi”.

There is an element of doubt with paranormal experiences, whereas “wahi” is the word of Allah, crystal clear, and without any doubt.

Now that you have made an effort to look up the definition of “paranormal”, I suggest that you go through the definition of “wahi” and its different forms as well.

Cheers,

Fairdinkum

STATESMAN REPLY#20

I agree with your view that we cannot choose one approach (science, for example) exclusive to all other ones (philosophy, human sciences, history etc.)when trying to understand Islam. And sometimes it is best not to refer to science when dealing with matters of divine faith.

However, you must understand that Islam is not a one dimensional religion. It is not a religion which is based solely on the gnostic feelings of human beings or limited to the relationship between God and man. This is just one dimension of the Islamic faith.

I did not attempt to give scientific explaination for dive revelations or ``wahi``. In fact, it was the other way around. Some people were trying to explain ``paranormal activity`` in light of Islam (giving ``wahi`` as an example), and I suggested that they should know Islam`s position on these matters well, before making such an attempt.

Is that fair enough?

Rishi#26

Havent you been in another post giving your opinion(as if anybody cares)about meaning of written scriptures with impunity & audacity.You go about with the yardstick given by your high school english teacher foolishly passing or failing people in your dream world.



``Lahore Diaries III by Rehan Ansari Replies

``So why was this county divided?

That was a mistake. Sorry. It won`t happen again.``



Rishi this an error of{ county} when it should be country,but people LIKE YOU will try to make such errors as

``Incoherent, rambling, juxtapositioned and inappropriate usage of words

does mar the message intended to convey.``Sure it does but we are not as meticulous here as we are in our profession.After all this a CHOWK,& if you have ever gone to any chowk in India or Pakistan they dont really speak the queens english.It used to be matter of great shame when one did not understand fully what is communicated, but NOW its a cop out for the superficials to say nonchantantly``I dont understand,i didnt understand,i quite cant follow you,what are you talking about???

re rishi

`...everyone seems to be complaining about the quality of the artiles...`

surely you mean articles, my friend

re zahra

its not how you said what you said but what you actually said

`...writing fiction is very different from writing based on ones observations and experiences.`

what else is the writer to write about if not of his personal observations and experiences as trite as it may sound write about what you know is an adage that still holds in any case one should always strive for truth which is not of course the same as writing about something that actually happened something might not have actually happened but that doesnt mean its not true i went a bit tangential there but i hope you get my point

Dear Mr. Baker and Other Concerned Readers:

I am just portraying the prevalent scenario. That is it. See, the replies are also catching the virus. :-)

Thanks for noticing the incoherence.

Regards

Here`s some information about ``wahy`` (revelations) that I picked up off a great Islamic Q&A site
(www.islam-qa.com) (Warning very long post follows!)

Q. A disbeliever regards Prophet Muhammad (sal) as a great scholar, a great person but not approving him as the prophet of God.

If we mention the prophecy made by Muhammad(sal) and in the Quran, he compares it with the prophecy made by some other persons like Nostradamus. How to clarify him?

A. Praise be to Allaah.

It seems that your friend, in his ignorance of the true nature of Prophethood, does not make a distinction between a Prophet and an astrologer, and so he compares the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and the astrology of the French physicist Nostradamus who lived in the 16th century CE and composed books of fantasies and illusions. His books are written in ambiguous language about events that will happen up until the end of the world, which he expected would happen in the year 3797. A person like this needs to understand the true nature of Prophethood and why mankind needs to believe in it, and he needs to know that the Unseen can only be known through the Prophets who were chosen by Allaah. He needs to know that Prophethood is a gift from Allaah, may He be glorified, and it cannot be attained by a person’s desires or own efforts. Prophethood is a pure blessing from Allaah, as is indicated in His words (interpretation of the meanings):

“Those were they unto whom Allaah bestowed His Grace from along the Prophets, of the offspring of Adam, and of those whom We carried (in the ship) with Nooh…” [Maryam 19:58]

“Thus will your Lord choose you…” [Yoosuf 12:6]

“… I have chosen you above men by My Messages and by My speaking (to you)…” [al-A’raaf 7:144]

“… Allaah knows best with whom to place His Message…” [al-An’aam 6:124]

Then he should realize that the way in which Allaah conveys His message to His Prophets and Messengers is by wahy (revelation). Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Verily, We have inspired you (O Muhammad) as We inspired Nooh and the Prophets after him…” [al-Nisa’ 4:163].

There is nothing wrong with explaining to him the three types or levels of wahy so that he may have a better understanding of this channel of communication between Allaah and His creation, which is so essential for mankind.

These three types or levels have been mentioned by Allaah in the Qur’aan (interpretation of the meaning): “It is not given to any human being that Allaah should speak to him unless (it be) by Inspiration, or from behind a veil, or (that) He sends a Messenger to reveal what He wills by His leave. Verily, He is Most High, Most Wise.” [al-Shooraa 42:51]

These three types or levels may be further explained as follows:

1.Inspiring something in the heart of a Prophet in such a way that he has no doubt about it and is certain that it is from Allaah. It was reported in a hadeeth that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The holy spirit (i.e., Jibreel) blew into my heart that no soul dies until its provision (rizq) and appointed time have expired, so fear Allaah and be polite and reasonable when you seek to earn a living from others.” (Reported by Ibn Hibbaan). This type of revelation also includes the visions of the Prophets, which are true, as is proven in the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah Umm al-Mu’mineen (may Allaah be pleased with her)who said: “The first thing that happened to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) of wahy was true vision in his dreams: he did not see something but it would become as true as daybreak.” (Agreed upon).

Therefore the Prophet and Friend of Allaah, Ibraaheem, hastened to sacrifice his son when he saw that he was commanded to do so in a dream. He took this dream as being a revelation to him, as Allaah tells us(interpretation of the meaning):

“So We gave him the glad tidings of a forbearing boy.

And, when he (his son) was old enough to walk with
him, he said, ‘O my son! I have seen in a dream that I am slaughtering you (offering you in sacrifice to Allaah), so look what you think!’ He said: ‘O my father! Do that which you are commanded, in sha Allaah (if Allaah will) you will find me of al-saabireen (the patient ones).’

Then, when they had both submitted themselves (to the Will of Allaah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (or on the side of his forehead, for slaughtering), And We called out to him: ‘O Ibraaheem! You have fulfilled the dream (vision)! Verily, thus do We reward the muhsinoon (good-doers). Verily, that was a manifest trial, And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice (a ram).” [al-Saaffaat 37:101-107]

2.Speaking to His Messengers from behind a barrier. Allaah spoke thus to Moosa, upon whom be peace, as He says (interpretation of the meanings):

“And when Moosa came at the time and place appointed by Us, and his Lord spoke to him…”
[al-A’raaf 7:143]

“And when he came to it (the fire), he was called by name, ‘O Moosa! Verily, I am your Lord! So take off your shoes, you are in the sacred valley, Tuwa. And I have chosen you. So listen to that which is inspired to you.

Verily, I am Allaah! None has the right to be worshipped but I, so worship Me, and perform
al-salaat (prayer) for My Remembrance.’”[Ta-Ha 20:12-14]

3.Revelation to a Prophet via an angel. This is what Allaah refers to in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning): “… or He sends a Messenger to reveal what He wills by His leave…” [al-Shoora 42:51]. This messenger is Jibreel, upon whom be peace.

The angel came to the Prophet in three forms as is proven in the shar’i texts.

These three forms are:

a.The Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah
be upon him) saw him in the form in which Allaah
created him. This happened to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) twice.

b.The revelation came with a noise like the sound of a bell, which went away after the Prophet(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had understood what he had said.

c.The angel appeared in the form of a man and spoke to him, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) understood what
he said. This was the easiest of the three ways for the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be
upon him). This what happened the first time Jibreel came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in the Cave of Hira’.

Then you should tell your friend something of the evidence of the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and his miracles (see Question # 2114), the chief of which is the Qur’aan. There is no harm in giving him a copy of the translation of its meanings...

Fairdinkum:

Please do not misconstrue me. You are wrong to say that I was suggesting psychics` abilities are on a par with what happened to the prophets in Islam and other religions. What I did say was that what the prophets experienced could be classified as paranormal.

``Paranormal - Beyond the scope of normal scientific investigation etc.`` (Oxford Dictionary and Usage Guide of the English Language)

Besides, I also said that psychic dreams are only one of the forty-six branches of prophethood. There are forty-five other conditions that one would have to fulfill in order to be elevated to the status of a prophet (and that is a moot point since Muhammed s.a.w was officially the last one anyway).

Look before you leap!

Djiin. Djiin. Djiin! I wanted to get that right.

Zahra: I went to the newsletter that you suggested but I must say I found the writing and the ideas there to be quite mediocre. Yes, debate on a recent Dawn article, descriptions of pot luck dinners and the like are very pleasant and engaging, but I certainly did not come away from there stimulated or otherwise enlightened. Remember that there is more to writing than just having opinions - it is a craft that any half-decent writer spends years perfecting. Like they say, those who can`t write (or perform, or act, etc.) become critics!

Re:

while everyone seems to be complaining about the quality of the artiles, it is also noteworthy that the quality of the replies also seem to be falling downhill.

Incoherent, rambling, juxtapositioned and inappropriate usage of words does mar the message intended to convey.

- Rishi

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that should have been `found only two articles to be of any real quality` not `found only two articles that i found to be of any real quality` which is of course repititious and the `that` is of course incorrect

goodness the bad writing here seems to be rubbing off

Dear D.J.I.I.N:

I am sorry I went into my Persian mode without realizing that the audience was English.

Take Care

zahra

`But when it comes to portrayal of writings by women from our origin ``Pakistan``, I can tell you very different perspectives. The ones who have been writing here are just one side of the picture there is another side far more intense, genuine and thought provoking. That does not imply that the writers here lack that. But that tells a lot what is not said and is covered in the fine garb of ``Words by Sanfae Nazuk``.`

im not exactly sure what you`re saying here

`Well, I ended up telling you that BECAUSE writing fiction is very different from writing based on ones observations and experiences.`

or here

but i took a look at the front page of chowk and found only two articles that i found to be of any real quality sakinas untitled and binas his gift but then what the hell do i know

djiin (not djiian or djinn)

Mr. Baker:

As I have reiterated previously that I have hard time understanding your writings(My ignorance)! But your other post made me laugh and I happened to write what I felt than just pose Oh, what a great piece of writing from thy Highness (Humor and Sarcasm Intended)

Mr. Baker: Just to let thee know that I have a habit of adding humor to my responses and due to your dry arguments if you were unable to realize that ....Your Problem :-)

On another note, if you have not heard the verses that I have quoted, Sir, I am sorry I cannot spoil the beauty of the verses by translating them word by word for you. I really cannot do that!You should either guess or send a note to a ``Kutab Khana`` in India or wherever you hale from and request them to send you a ``Lughat``.

``And here I am not even an Urdu Speaking(to myself)requested to assist the knowledge and wisdom personified ones(to myself again)``

:-)

Take Care

_____________________

To djiian:

Thanks for your valid point. I agree what may be a masterpiece in the eyes of others may appear rubbish to some and vice versa.

But when it comes to portrayal of writings by women from our origin ``Pakistan``, I can tell you very different perspectives. The ones who have been writing here are just one side of the picture there is another side far more intense, genuine and thought provoking. That does not imply that the writers here lack that. But that tells a lot what is not said and is covered in the fine garb of ``Words by Sanfae Nazuk``.

I will invite you to please read the Newsletters that IOPWE has on its site. IOPWE - International Organization of Pakistani Women Engineers.

Well, I ended up telling you that BECAUSE writing fiction is very different from writing based on ones observations and experiences. Personally I have liked some articles on Chowk and some writers have certainly the mettle to stimulate ones thoughts to think and devise an action plan or agree/disagree but the current front page is dull and boring!

Later,

Regards

Zahra J

fair dinkum#19



Our age is not an age to worship things we do not know...................................... One`s personality is balanced by

what one knows in proportion to what one believes. Beliefs alone are not

virtues. If we believe in something and do not know it, it has no value

because virtue comes from knowing what we believe in well. We believe in

Islam. We are therefore obliged to know it well before we can interpret

or attempt to explain any phenomenon (psychic activity, for example) in....................

I dont know why instead of discussing mind ,brain,psychology of ordinary people we are explaining wahi,gibrael,divine revelations,``meerage``&millions of celestial miracles.I personally would never try to explain Islam ONLY on the basis of science,my diminutive understanding,or challenges thrown at me by my non muslim friends!To christians i ask how did virgin mary give birth to jesus ?to hindus i pose how 5-10 heads on one neck or half elephant 1/2 human ganesh.All of these are inexplicable by common sense or by SCIENCE,understanding!Its better to NOT expect or give scientific explanation in matters of divine faith.

Well, I do not know if psychics are fairdinkum (ture) or not, or if they at all exist and can really see the things a normal person like me can’t. May be they do exist & may be some of them sometimes do experience the paranormal, and may be sometimes some of them really are misguided and indeed soft in the head. I do not wish to indulge myself in this discussion.

The reason for writing this reply is that some people (see Fauzia`s reply which has also been endorsed by Bina herself) have tried to use revelations (Wahi) made to Mohammad (PBUH), and other Prophets of Allah through angel Gabriel as an example of psychic or paranormal activity.

The fact that Mohammad was an illiterate, and yet uttered words of such eloquence as Quranic verses has been implied to be his psychic ability or as an example of paranormal activity. “Wahi” that was sometimes delivered in the form of a dream (instead of using angel Gabriel) to various Prophets of Allah has also been mentioned as an example of psychic dreams. In short, it is implied that it all, some how, is equivalent to psychic or paranormal experiences of the present day psychics.

Our age is not an age to worship things we do not know. This is particularly true for those who are educated. Their responsibility is even heavier when confronted by the sacred. It is not only an Islamic duty, but a scientific and humanitarian one as well to find a meaningful approach to the understanding of Islam. One`s personality is balanced by what one knows in proportion to what one believes. Beliefs alone are not virtues. If we believe in something and do not know it, it has no value because virtue comes from knowing what we believe in well. We believe in Islam. We are therefore obliged to know it well before we can interpret or attempt to explain any phenomenon (psychic activity, for example) in light of Islam.

I suggest that you guys study and cover the following areas:

The definition of “wahi”



The difference between instructions that are received by animals(such as Honey Bees)and revelations of Allah to his Prophets(two different forms of ``Whais``).

The difference between “wahi” and the psychic abilities of so called psychics.

The difference between “wahi” delivered via dreams(instead of through angel Gabriel) and the psychic dreams of people who are not Prophets of Allah.

We can then have an informed debate on this matter.

The question of why Mohammand was ``Ummi`` or illetrate is entirely a different issue.

Cheers,

Fairdinkum

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re zahra

`Lack of Originality is so damn apparent that I have requested some friends to create ripples by sending their beautiful and original thoughts to this ezine.`

but i wonder zahra will these thoughts see the light of day here what with the very questionable editorial policy in effect chowk is deluged with thousands of articles on a regular basis i find it hard to believe that alot of what actually makes it is the cream of the crop id love to have a look at chowks cutting room floor

Interestingly enough, as Fozia states, the many miracles of Islam - visions, psychic dreams, revelations - could be seen as ``paranormal events``.

In fact, psychic dreams are a strong part of Islamic tradition. They are one of the forty-six branches of prophethood. You can check out the writings of Ibn Seerin, who was one of the most famous Islamic dream interpreters. There are many examples in the Quran of psychic dreams, too - for example the Pharoah`s dream which was interpreted as seven years of abundance, then seven years of famine.

- Bina

``Almost any thing can be used as fraud & also there is a``sucker born evry minute``as the cliche goes.No i have not harmed any body for i myself admit that it is nothing more than say fortune cookie in the chinese restaurant almost in every town small & large.BUT that is not to say that i.....psychological powers of players.

_________________________________

Hello Mr. Baker:

My God, this was like a series of complex equations. I am sorry to jump in this trench of 2nd differentials :-) just happpened to read YOUR RESPONSE and laughed and laughed and then thought I will acknowledge your ability to complex things that can be described clearly. I guess probably it was meant for Ibna-e-Sina only therefore it happened to be so complexed.

Well, the apparent shortage of good articles on chowk is becoming quite obvious and the very fact that folks are making everything a fiction is quite apparent. Lack of Originality is so damn apparent that I have requested some friends to create ripples by sending their beautiful and original thoughts to this ezine.

On another note, I am not sure where did those poets disappear who said that:

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Re: Bina,

Interesting story, I was thinking about your

phrase ``He knew things without knowing how he knew them`` could also apply to the Prophets of various

religons. After all they received revelations from

an angel Gabriel (who could only be seen by the Prophet and no one else).

Obviously some thought these Prophets were mad and others thought there is some validity to their visions. Often some real life miracles like Moses

parting the sea, Jesus Healing the ill, and an illiterate Prophet Mohammed reading reciting the poetic verses of the Quran were to be the concrete proofs of such visions.

Regards,

Fozia

re; studebaker #11

but there is always a possibility about fraud or exploitation. what is a fake psychic is exploiting the simplicity of his or her clients and cheating them into giving money? the history of humanity is filled with such cheats who clung to positions of power.

what if what you think is harmless causes someone a great deal of harm? for example your ``harmless`` prediction that a person may find luck in gambling may cause financial ruin of that person. or your suggestion that a person avoid certain things may cause them to miss out on lucrative possibilities.

have you ever wondered whether you have caused harm to people through your fake psychic abilities (as you have yourself confessed??)

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Bina, enjoyed reading this story. I agree with you that it is definitely not competition material though.

My question to you, were you inspired to write this story after watching the movie ``The sixth sense`` by any chance?

As for psychic abilities, I think all that is just plain hocus pocus. People wish there were psychic abilities so that they would add meaning/spice/direction to their otherwise mundane lives. I do not know of a single intelligent person who takes this psychic babble seriously. Psychic abilities have never been demonstrated or substantiated in a scientific manner. No one who has claimed to have some paranormal powers has been able to come in front of a panel of people or an objective t.v camera and demonstrate their purported powers.

Yes there is a correlation between psychic abilities and psychological powers. The people who claim to have them are either frauds or are demented. And the people who believe them are just plain deluded.

Thanks to everyone for their positive comments.

To the person who asked whether I was doctor or patient, the answer is: neither, but I was a psychology student in college and grad school. I took classes in Abnormal Psych, Biopsychology, and Physiological Psychology. We had to memorize the names of all the mental disorders, their symptoms, and all the prescription drugs for our exams.

Interestingly enough, the ``symptoms`` David presents can`t be pinned down to any one mental illness. At first he seems to display a generalized anxiety disorder, then symptoms of OCD, displacement (which could be attributed to any one of the borderline personality disorders), and finally schizophrenia. This was meant to show that David might not actually be a candidate for medication/therapy after all...

And also, at first I meant to write this story about someone who was just mentally ill, but then halfway through thinking about, I thought I`d give it a twist.

As for entering this story into competition - I`m really flattered but not really sure whether it`s competition-worthy material. I just wrote this for fun, and as something different from my usual fare. I wanted something with a happy ending! Hope you enjoyed it.

- Bina.

Bina dear,

What happened to your entry of ``Fish hook``in a short story contest???You should enter this one too if it is still open.!

I believe many psychics suffer from schizophrenia, Bina. Schizophrenics almost exclusively attest to hearing a voice (or voices) in their head that often dictates actions they should take.

By the way, for another explanation of psychic phenomena, read Carl Sagan`s excellent book, ``The Demon-Haunted World.``

-!K!-

Fascinating and gripping! One more for Bina Shah.:-)

Bina:

Why the postscript?

regards,

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Bina Bibi, you`ve done it again!

I was wondering, did you know there is an entire branch of US government devoted to this phenomena of knowing other peoples`secrets?

It is called the National Security Agency (NSA) and though the people who work there are not diagnosed with mental illnesses, they usually end up with mental illnesses at the end of their careers !:)