He had no Choice!
Bilal Musharraf October 14, 1999
#983 Posted by Pu Li on December 15, 1999 4:08:05 pm
Re SameerJB #: 843
[I think the case of Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan is a similar one. His dadra, thumris and bhajans singing were so good that many Pakistanis were regreting later for their treatment of him, practically forcing him to migrate to India.]
Did he live in West Punjab before the Partition? I didn`t know that.
Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan was so highly respected in India, the story goes, that when he visited Madras for a music conference, a leading South Indian musician, and a Brahmin at that, prostrated himself at the Ustad`s feet as a mark of respect to the Ustad`s musical scholarship.
In the last few years, All India Radio released several of the Ustad`s early radio concerts on CDs. The selling price is so ridiculously low: just 85 rupees a CD. Even in the US, they can be had for just $4 - $7. I for one am grateful to All India Radio for making his music available.
[I think the case of Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan is a similar one. His dadra, thumris and bhajans singing were so good that many Pakistanis were regreting later for their treatment of him, practically forcing him to migrate to India.]
Did he live in West Punjab before the Partition? I didn`t know that.
Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan was so highly respected in India, the story goes, that when he visited Madras for a music conference, a leading South Indian musician, and a Brahmin at that, prostrated himself at the Ustad`s feet as a mark of respect to the Ustad`s musical scholarship.
In the last few years, All India Radio released several of the Ustad`s early radio concerts on CDs. The selling price is so ridiculously low: just 85 rupees a CD. Even in the US, they can be had for just $4 - $7. I for one am grateful to All India Radio for making his music available.
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#982 Posted by bahmad on December 15, 1999 2:21:41 pm
In response to SameerJB (Reply # 883)
Dear Sameer:
Your statement: ``I should have said that the immigrant business community was a mixture of Urdu and Punjabi speaking immigrants whereas the intellectual and educated immigrants were mostly Urdu speaking from India.``
Comment: Sindh is much more unique province of Pakistan in terms of ethnicity. In rural Sindh, people from Baluchistan, Punjab, and the NWFP came, settled, and assimilated significantly (though some of these groups maintained mixed identities). After the Partition of India, a large number of urdu speaking immigrants initially settled in Karachi, Hyderabad, and Sukkur. Slowly and gradually some of these people moved to other smaller towns of Sindh. Assimilation was basically dependent upon their number in relation to other Sindhis and/or upon their predispositions.
Karachi was a city of only 400,000 in 1947. It was previously settled mainly by Sindhis (both Hindus and Muslims), Baluchis (including Brohi and Mekrani speaking people), Parsis, Gujratis (including Kuchis and Marwaris), and Goanese Christians.
After the Partition, most businessmen were either Gujrati or Urdu-speaking. However, the first major industrialists (such Adamji, Valika, Dadabhoi, Bawani, Dawood) were Gujrati/Memon/Marwari people. Punjabi businessmen and industrialists started penetrating after the initial phase of industrial development (circa mid-1950s). Pathans initially came as laborers (very industrious people), chowkidars, and drivers. Urdu speaking immigrants were both educated and uneducated (mostly poor people). A lot of Kashmiris and Punjabis also came to Karachi from India. Punjabis initially came to Karachi to work as government servants, semi-skilled industrial workers, and small traders (1947-58).
In the early 1960s, Karachi was a true representative of national solidarity in Pakistan, regardless of ethnicity, language, religion, or any other basis of collective identity. The situation started changing during Ayub Khan`s autocratic rule. The people of Sindh have started realizing that their survival depends upon the unity of people irrespective of their identities (that are complex and nested both socially and spatially).
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
Dear Sameer:
Your statement: ``I should have said that the immigrant business community was a mixture of Urdu and Punjabi speaking immigrants whereas the intellectual and educated immigrants were mostly Urdu speaking from India.``
Comment: Sindh is much more unique province of Pakistan in terms of ethnicity. In rural Sindh, people from Baluchistan, Punjab, and the NWFP came, settled, and assimilated significantly (though some of these groups maintained mixed identities). After the Partition of India, a large number of urdu speaking immigrants initially settled in Karachi, Hyderabad, and Sukkur. Slowly and gradually some of these people moved to other smaller towns of Sindh. Assimilation was basically dependent upon their number in relation to other Sindhis and/or upon their predispositions.
Karachi was a city of only 400,000 in 1947. It was previously settled mainly by Sindhis (both Hindus and Muslims), Baluchis (including Brohi and Mekrani speaking people), Parsis, Gujratis (including Kuchis and Marwaris), and Goanese Christians.
After the Partition, most businessmen were either Gujrati or Urdu-speaking. However, the first major industrialists (such Adamji, Valika, Dadabhoi, Bawani, Dawood) were Gujrati/Memon/Marwari people. Punjabi businessmen and industrialists started penetrating after the initial phase of industrial development (circa mid-1950s). Pathans initially came as laborers (very industrious people), chowkidars, and drivers. Urdu speaking immigrants were both educated and uneducated (mostly poor people). A lot of Kashmiris and Punjabis also came to Karachi from India. Punjabis initially came to Karachi to work as government servants, semi-skilled industrial workers, and small traders (1947-58).
In the early 1960s, Karachi was a true representative of national solidarity in Pakistan, regardless of ethnicity, language, religion, or any other basis of collective identity. The situation started changing during Ayub Khan`s autocratic rule. The people of Sindh have started realizing that their survival depends upon the unity of people irrespective of their identities (that are complex and nested both socially and spatially).
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
#981 Posted by zeemax on December 15, 1999 10:47:39 am
The Black Box Will Tell The Truth :
An interview with counsel for defense in the Hijacking case Mr. Iqbal Raad .(The weekly Zindagi 12-18 Dec. Translated from Urdu)
Ref : Assad_K # 167 ... benevolent dictators and various contributors interested in the Hijacking case.
Q . How does the recent ordinance amending the scope of the anti-terorist courts affect the case ?
A. This is nothing new. We had expected it from the beginning. The reason is that the FIR filed after a month of mindstorming by govt. legal experts is a wonder in itself in the history of jurisprudence. Spread over 19 pages, it says everything except the clauses that it says have been registered. For example, the first clause is section 402 B which relates to Hijacking. But it says nothing that is of relevance to 402 A which contains the definition of Hijacking, i.e. did a hijacking take place ? How did it take place ? Where did it take place ? Why did it take place ? Similarly section 365 relates to Kidnapping but the FIR says nothing about a kidnapping. There`s no explanation provided as regards the delay in filing the FIR. Further, the person who is the complainant remains a stranger throughout the complaint. In criminal cases, how can a person who has not been harmed/affected by the alleged crime be the complainant ? Indeed, someone who was not in the picture at all ?
Accordingly, we had been saying all along that this case does not fall under the purview of the scheduled offences under the Anti-terrorism act, and we will challenge it as soon as the charge sheet is presented. So, the Govt. changed the schedule of offences and changed the whole structure of the anti-terrorism act to hide their weaknesses. As far as the authority of CE contained in this ordinance is concerned, that itself is subjudice and has been challenged in the Supreme Court i.e. who is this gentleman called the CE ? Where did he come from ? Where is he mentioned in the constitution and who gave him the authority to promulgate ordinances ? All these were the weaknesses which the prosecution has tried to hide but we feel it has actually strengthened our case. All we want is a fair trial.
Q. Do you believe that this ordinance was promulgated in view of foreign pressure to appoint a High Court Judge ?
A. No. There was no such pressure. It was because of their own weakness. When they saw that the Sessions Judge Rehmat Hussain Jaffery is a strict sort of a person who is only talking about the law and not submitting to dictates, they simply changed him. When the prosecution requested Judge Rehmat for further police remand of the accused he asked on what grounds ? Because the accused had already been in custody for more than a month he felt it was enough time for the police to have interrogated them so he turned down the request and sent the accused to jail under judicial custody i.e. took them away from police custody. Then, the Govt. came up with more accused in Shahbaz Sharif, Saif-ur-Rehman and Saeed Mehdi to delay the case but the judge refused police remand again. When the Govt. thought they couldn`t get anything out of the current judge, they immediately brought in the amendment.
Q. So what you`re saying is that the amendment was brought in to influence the case ?
A. Yes. It is a tactic to create hurdles in the trial by getting us tied up in Constitutional petitions, like this ordinance is wrong and the authority to issue such is already under debate in the Supreme Court, so the Hijacking case would not go to trial till those questions are answered. These are all delaying tactics. The FIR was filed after one month. The copy of the FIR is supposed to be filed within 24 hours but it took us more than 72 hours to get the copy. Then they arrested three accused and didn`t arrest the others. When we said the others have been in your custody since 40 days why don`t you show them ? Only then they arrested the others one by one causing further delay. We want the charge sheet to be presented right away without delay so we can defend the accused in a normal manner for the sake of swift justice.
Q. Do you think more people will be implicated ?
A. It`s upto them to implicate anyone they want. For a whole 40 days they had been questioning Shahbaz Sharif, Saif-ur-Rehman and Saeed Mehdi as to where are the files ? Where are your properties ? What has Mian Saheb been doing ? When they couldn`t come up with anything despite severe interrrogation of 40 days then these three were implicated in the Hijacking case. There`s no evidence against these three. Saif-ur-Rehman had only said, as per the witness`s statement, that the plane can also be diverted to Peshawar. Where does hijacking and murder come into it ?
Q. It is being said that the attempt to divert the plane was akin to Hijacking and an attempt to murder ..
A. It is not proved anywhere. We have prepared our case in the light of the Tokyo Convention, regulations of the International Civil Aviation Organistaion (ICAO) and the International Air Transport Authority (IATA). Nothing supports the prosecution`s view. The alternative destinations of the flight i.e. Nawabshah and Muscat were pre-determined. If the pilot was instructed to use the alternate destination instead of Karachi and permitted to land in Nawabshah so how is it Hijacking ? When this case is debated in the light of international conventions it will cause great damage to the national airline and the civil aviation authority. It`s all against the interest of this country.
Q. What is the legal significance of the ex- Director General Civil Aviation authority, Mr Aminullah Chaudhery, having turned State Approver ?
A. His legal significance is clear before the world. When Mr. Chaudhery was presented the first time before court he said he was under great pressure to turn approver. He said he had undergone open heart surgery twice and medicines were being grabbed from his hand. Finally he had submitted in writing that mentally he had become so weak that either he would go mad or would have to resort to suicide. So his turning approver was clearly under duress with no legal significance.
Q. It is being said that the plane was heading in a North-Easterly direction which is towards India. Was it instructed to go there ?
A. What`s on record is that the Control Tower had said the pilot was not taking any of their instructions. He kept telling them to ``Hold On``. The control tower people are testifying that they had told the pilot to land in Nawabshah but he started to head somewhere else. When the plane started to climb the control tower asked the pilot we`re telling you to land and you`re climbing ? The pilot said it was to conserve fuel. The tower said but you`ll spend more fuel climbing while we`re telling you to land. There was someone else in the cockpit instructing the pilot not to land. When the the pilot wasn`t listening to ground control, then who was in control of the plane ? Under the regulations of Civil Aviation the plane is always under the control of respective ground controllers along it`s route and if the pilot listens to anyone other than ground control, his license can be revoked. So did the pilot do it willingly or was he under pressure ? You can imagine what shape this case can take if these questions are answered. That is why we feel that the contents of the black box will never be revealed.
Q. Are there any particular secrets contained in the black box ?
A. It contains the conversation of the person who was instructing the pilot and controlling the plane. No witness has testified that the plane was refused landing even though it was short of fuel so that (God forbid) it should crash. The Hijacking was where the plane was kept in the air although it was allegedly precariously short on fuel while the ground control was asking it to land in either Nawabshah or Karachi. That is where passenger`s lives were put at stake. If the contents of the black box are revealed then where will the prosecution`s case go ? That is the real question.
N.B. Above interview was taken before the new judge was appointed and the case moved to High Court. The contents of the black box have still not been revealed in court neither the defense has been provided with copies of the tapes. The charge sheet still hasn`t been presented on one pretext or the other and now may be presented (as so far thought) on the 27th of December. The same should have been presented by 16th of November as ordered by the original judge.
An interview with counsel for defense in the Hijacking case Mr. Iqbal Raad .(The weekly Zindagi 12-18 Dec. Translated from Urdu)
Ref : Assad_K # 167 ... benevolent dictators and various contributors interested in the Hijacking case.
Q . How does the recent ordinance amending the scope of the anti-terorist courts affect the case ?
A. This is nothing new. We had expected it from the beginning. The reason is that the FIR filed after a month of mindstorming by govt. legal experts is a wonder in itself in the history of jurisprudence. Spread over 19 pages, it says everything except the clauses that it says have been registered. For example, the first clause is section 402 B which relates to Hijacking. But it says nothing that is of relevance to 402 A which contains the definition of Hijacking, i.e. did a hijacking take place ? How did it take place ? Where did it take place ? Why did it take place ? Similarly section 365 relates to Kidnapping but the FIR says nothing about a kidnapping. There`s no explanation provided as regards the delay in filing the FIR. Further, the person who is the complainant remains a stranger throughout the complaint. In criminal cases, how can a person who has not been harmed/affected by the alleged crime be the complainant ? Indeed, someone who was not in the picture at all ?
Accordingly, we had been saying all along that this case does not fall under the purview of the scheduled offences under the Anti-terrorism act, and we will challenge it as soon as the charge sheet is presented. So, the Govt. changed the schedule of offences and changed the whole structure of the anti-terrorism act to hide their weaknesses. As far as the authority of CE contained in this ordinance is concerned, that itself is subjudice and has been challenged in the Supreme Court i.e. who is this gentleman called the CE ? Where did he come from ? Where is he mentioned in the constitution and who gave him the authority to promulgate ordinances ? All these were the weaknesses which the prosecution has tried to hide but we feel it has actually strengthened our case. All we want is a fair trial.
Q. Do you believe that this ordinance was promulgated in view of foreign pressure to appoint a High Court Judge ?
A. No. There was no such pressure. It was because of their own weakness. When they saw that the Sessions Judge Rehmat Hussain Jaffery is a strict sort of a person who is only talking about the law and not submitting to dictates, they simply changed him. When the prosecution requested Judge Rehmat for further police remand of the accused he asked on what grounds ? Because the accused had already been in custody for more than a month he felt it was enough time for the police to have interrogated them so he turned down the request and sent the accused to jail under judicial custody i.e. took them away from police custody. Then, the Govt. came up with more accused in Shahbaz Sharif, Saif-ur-Rehman and Saeed Mehdi to delay the case but the judge refused police remand again. When the Govt. thought they couldn`t get anything out of the current judge, they immediately brought in the amendment.
Q. So what you`re saying is that the amendment was brought in to influence the case ?
A. Yes. It is a tactic to create hurdles in the trial by getting us tied up in Constitutional petitions, like this ordinance is wrong and the authority to issue such is already under debate in the Supreme Court, so the Hijacking case would not go to trial till those questions are answered. These are all delaying tactics. The FIR was filed after one month. The copy of the FIR is supposed to be filed within 24 hours but it took us more than 72 hours to get the copy. Then they arrested three accused and didn`t arrest the others. When we said the others have been in your custody since 40 days why don`t you show them ? Only then they arrested the others one by one causing further delay. We want the charge sheet to be presented right away without delay so we can defend the accused in a normal manner for the sake of swift justice.
Q. Do you think more people will be implicated ?
A. It`s upto them to implicate anyone they want. For a whole 40 days they had been questioning Shahbaz Sharif, Saif-ur-Rehman and Saeed Mehdi as to where are the files ? Where are your properties ? What has Mian Saheb been doing ? When they couldn`t come up with anything despite severe interrrogation of 40 days then these three were implicated in the Hijacking case. There`s no evidence against these three. Saif-ur-Rehman had only said, as per the witness`s statement, that the plane can also be diverted to Peshawar. Where does hijacking and murder come into it ?
Q. It is being said that the attempt to divert the plane was akin to Hijacking and an attempt to murder ..
A. It is not proved anywhere. We have prepared our case in the light of the Tokyo Convention, regulations of the International Civil Aviation Organistaion (ICAO) and the International Air Transport Authority (IATA). Nothing supports the prosecution`s view. The alternative destinations of the flight i.e. Nawabshah and Muscat were pre-determined. If the pilot was instructed to use the alternate destination instead of Karachi and permitted to land in Nawabshah so how is it Hijacking ? When this case is debated in the light of international conventions it will cause great damage to the national airline and the civil aviation authority. It`s all against the interest of this country.
Q. What is the legal significance of the ex- Director General Civil Aviation authority, Mr Aminullah Chaudhery, having turned State Approver ?
A. His legal significance is clear before the world. When Mr. Chaudhery was presented the first time before court he said he was under great pressure to turn approver. He said he had undergone open heart surgery twice and medicines were being grabbed from his hand. Finally he had submitted in writing that mentally he had become so weak that either he would go mad or would have to resort to suicide. So his turning approver was clearly under duress with no legal significance.
Q. It is being said that the plane was heading in a North-Easterly direction which is towards India. Was it instructed to go there ?
A. What`s on record is that the Control Tower had said the pilot was not taking any of their instructions. He kept telling them to ``Hold On``. The control tower people are testifying that they had told the pilot to land in Nawabshah but he started to head somewhere else. When the plane started to climb the control tower asked the pilot we`re telling you to land and you`re climbing ? The pilot said it was to conserve fuel. The tower said but you`ll spend more fuel climbing while we`re telling you to land. There was someone else in the cockpit instructing the pilot not to land. When the the pilot wasn`t listening to ground control, then who was in control of the plane ? Under the regulations of Civil Aviation the plane is always under the control of respective ground controllers along it`s route and if the pilot listens to anyone other than ground control, his license can be revoked. So did the pilot do it willingly or was he under pressure ? You can imagine what shape this case can take if these questions are answered. That is why we feel that the contents of the black box will never be revealed.
Q. Are there any particular secrets contained in the black box ?
A. It contains the conversation of the person who was instructing the pilot and controlling the plane. No witness has testified that the plane was refused landing even though it was short of fuel so that (God forbid) it should crash. The Hijacking was where the plane was kept in the air although it was allegedly precariously short on fuel while the ground control was asking it to land in either Nawabshah or Karachi. That is where passenger`s lives were put at stake. If the contents of the black box are revealed then where will the prosecution`s case go ? That is the real question.
N.B. Above interview was taken before the new judge was appointed and the case moved to High Court. The contents of the black box have still not been revealed in court neither the defense has been provided with copies of the tapes. The charge sheet still hasn`t been presented on one pretext or the other and now may be presented (as so far thought) on the 27th of December. The same should have been presented by 16th of November as ordered by the original judge.
#980 Posted by Umairr on December 15, 1999 10:47:39 am
Interesting article from The NEWS, Pakistan (15 Dec)
```Pak hopes running high under Musharraf`s leadership`
ISLAMABAD: A leading US newspaper has stated that in Pakistan hopes were running high that Chief Executive General Pervaiz Musharraf could bring democracy in the country.
The Philadelphia Inquirer has published a commentary by its columnist Trudy Rubin, who is currently on a visit to Pakistan. She writes two months after the takeover by the Army in Pakistan. According to her, Pakistan`s liberal elite is still willing to suspend the cynicism born of past experience. They say the general is behaving totally differently so far from the disastrous military regimes that had competed with repressive civilian governments to ruin Pakistan over its 52 years of history.
Trudy Rubin writes that yet there is a desperate eagerness even in such crowds for Musharraf to make good, which Americans have reason to share. Pakistan reached the brink of economic collapse under deposed prime minister Nawaz Sharif, and a failed Pakistani state would be a global nightmare.
According to Trudy, to change all this will take more than Musharraf`s popular pledge to jail corrupt politicians and businessmen who have defaulted on huge state loans or failed to pay their taxes. The far more crucial issue is whether the chief executive can construct clean, credible economic and political institutions in a country that never has had them. There are some encouraging signs that Musharraf does understand the importance of institution building.
He has not banned parties or political activity, nor repressed the media. He has set up a commission of leading civilians on the economy and foreign affairs, and is said to actually listen to their recommendations. And he has put some fascinating new faces in his cabinet who emphasise what has become Musharraf`s theme song, power must be devolved down to the grassroots level if Pakistan is ever to enjoy real democracy, she remarks.`` (The NEWS)
Anyone is better than NS and BB, since they had completely destroyed the country. Let`s hope this guy does not turn out to be another NS, BB, or Zia.
```Pak hopes running high under Musharraf`s leadership`
ISLAMABAD: A leading US newspaper has stated that in Pakistan hopes were running high that Chief Executive General Pervaiz Musharraf could bring democracy in the country.
The Philadelphia Inquirer has published a commentary by its columnist Trudy Rubin, who is currently on a visit to Pakistan. She writes two months after the takeover by the Army in Pakistan. According to her, Pakistan`s liberal elite is still willing to suspend the cynicism born of past experience. They say the general is behaving totally differently so far from the disastrous military regimes that had competed with repressive civilian governments to ruin Pakistan over its 52 years of history.
Trudy Rubin writes that yet there is a desperate eagerness even in such crowds for Musharraf to make good, which Americans have reason to share. Pakistan reached the brink of economic collapse under deposed prime minister Nawaz Sharif, and a failed Pakistani state would be a global nightmare.
According to Trudy, to change all this will take more than Musharraf`s popular pledge to jail corrupt politicians and businessmen who have defaulted on huge state loans or failed to pay their taxes. The far more crucial issue is whether the chief executive can construct clean, credible economic and political institutions in a country that never has had them. There are some encouraging signs that Musharraf does understand the importance of institution building.
He has not banned parties or political activity, nor repressed the media. He has set up a commission of leading civilians on the economy and foreign affairs, and is said to actually listen to their recommendations. And he has put some fascinating new faces in his cabinet who emphasise what has become Musharraf`s theme song, power must be devolved down to the grassroots level if Pakistan is ever to enjoy real democracy, she remarks.`` (The NEWS)
Anyone is better than NS and BB, since they had completely destroyed the country. Let`s hope this guy does not turn out to be another NS, BB, or Zia.
#979 Posted by Chief Justice on December 15, 1999 10:47:39 am
Ref. #876
I was mortified to re-read my post. In para 7, the second sentence should read:
A term of dislike, although, as you may be aware, it is, in the case of reference to dogs, used denotatively rather than conotatively.
I was mortified to re-read my post. In para 7, the second sentence should read:
A term of dislike, although, as you may be aware, it is, in the case of reference to dogs, used denotatively rather than conotatively.
#978 Posted by SameerJB on December 15, 1999 10:47:39 am
Re: BAHMAD # 875
Dear Bilal Ahmad:
I agree with you ( after spending an hour going over whatever material I have ) that my statement like ``It was not until the arrival of educated immigrants from India who stabilised the situation and made Sindh a viable state what it is today`` was an oversimplification in the light of more complex and often troublesome phenomena of Punjabis migration to Sindh. I should have said that the immigrant business community was a mixture of Urdu and Punjabi speaking immigrants whereas the intellectual and educated immigrants were mostly Urdu speaking from India. The Punjabis migration to Sindh continued into the sixties, under a variety of pretexts.
You are right in saying that the new immigrants made little effort, to assimilate into the Sindhi society and culture. On the other hand a large segment of the Sindhi elites did not accept those who tried to assimilate into the Sindhi society. Unlike many other ethnic groups, a large majority of old Sindhis, themselves are made up of Baluch and Rajput immigrants of the past 500 years.
I wish there were some Pathans, Baluchis, Sindhis and Brohis chowkwallas so that we can have their views also. In the meantime you will probably be the sole spokesperson for Sindhis.
I must remember your kind words for me for a long time to come; thanks.
regards,
Sameer
Dear Bilal Ahmad:
I agree with you ( after spending an hour going over whatever material I have ) that my statement like ``It was not until the arrival of educated immigrants from India who stabilised the situation and made Sindh a viable state what it is today`` was an oversimplification in the light of more complex and often troublesome phenomena of Punjabis migration to Sindh. I should have said that the immigrant business community was a mixture of Urdu and Punjabi speaking immigrants whereas the intellectual and educated immigrants were mostly Urdu speaking from India. The Punjabis migration to Sindh continued into the sixties, under a variety of pretexts.
You are right in saying that the new immigrants made little effort, to assimilate into the Sindhi society and culture. On the other hand a large segment of the Sindhi elites did not accept those who tried to assimilate into the Sindhi society. Unlike many other ethnic groups, a large majority of old Sindhis, themselves are made up of Baluch and Rajput immigrants of the past 500 years.
I wish there were some Pathans, Baluchis, Sindhis and Brohis chowkwallas so that we can have their views also. In the meantime you will probably be the sole spokesperson for Sindhis.
I must remember your kind words for me for a long time to come; thanks.
regards,
Sameer
#977 Posted by SameerJB on December 15, 1999 10:47:39 am
SENIOR JUSTICE # 873
Dear Senior Justice:
Thanks a lot for mounting an extremely credible defense on my behalf. You have analysed certain portions of my poster much better than if I was to defend my suggestions. I really wanted to give a composite of my opinions on a variety of issues which, to me, demand more attention than Kashmir and Kargill, etc. I honestly believe that near death and traumatic experiences of life, more often lead to a changed person. Here is the extract of my ``desired platform``.
woh jinhain tab-e-garan bari-e-ayyam naheen
un ki palkon pe shab-o-roz ko halka kar de
Faiz Ahmad Faiz
regards,
Sameer
Dear Senior Justice:
Thanks a lot for mounting an extremely credible defense on my behalf. You have analysed certain portions of my poster much better than if I was to defend my suggestions. I really wanted to give a composite of my opinions on a variety of issues which, to me, demand more attention than Kashmir and Kargill, etc. I honestly believe that near death and traumatic experiences of life, more often lead to a changed person. Here is the extract of my ``desired platform``.
woh jinhain tab-e-garan bari-e-ayyam naheen
un ki palkon pe shab-o-roz ko halka kar de
Faiz Ahmad Faiz
regards,
Sameer
#976 Posted by SameerJB on December 15, 1999 10:47:39 am
Re: ASAD_K
Thanks for reading my post about a ``desired platform`` or agenda for the near future. I thought I made it very clear early on in the post that, except for the agenda items, rest is mostly ``mirch masala`` or a marketing ploy to attract few additional readers. I also refrained from KKK (Kashmir, Kargill and Killing or hanging of any person involved in the current crisis) because I am more concerned about the plight of the masses rather than the emotional issues. I do believe that traumatic experiences of life do influence the mindset of most people.
regards,
Sameer
Thanks for reading my post about a ``desired platform`` or agenda for the near future. I thought I made it very clear early on in the post that, except for the agenda items, rest is mostly ``mirch masala`` or a marketing ploy to attract few additional readers. I also refrained from KKK (Kashmir, Kargill and Killing or hanging of any person involved in the current crisis) because I am more concerned about the plight of the masses rather than the emotional issues. I do believe that traumatic experiences of life do influence the mindset of most people.
regards,
Sameer
#975 Posted by Gnostics on December 15, 1999 10:47:39 am
krashid No.867; Gnostics #862
I am afraid I am still thinking about the manshoor by Zeemax. It requires very careful analysis and I am, unhappily, a slow person. I haven`t even been able to give my reaction to Zemax regarding it. However, please be assured that I shall get back to your post as, of course, I will to Zeemax regarding his Manshoor.
I am myself most interested in this issue. In the meantime please let us know your reaction to other parts of the Manshoor.
Respectfully,
Gnostic
I am afraid I am still thinking about the manshoor by Zeemax. It requires very careful analysis and I am, unhappily, a slow person. I haven`t even been able to give my reaction to Zemax regarding it. However, please be assured that I shall get back to your post as, of course, I will to Zeemax regarding his Manshoor.
I am myself most interested in this issue. In the meantime please let us know your reaction to other parts of the Manshoor.
Respectfully,
Gnostic
#974 Posted by jay on December 15, 1999 10:47:39 am
GAME OF FOLLOW THE LEADER
To Dragon Slayer, response to 698,697 and 699.
The central theme of my post is that Pakistan had been responding in a reactive way to the Indian actions rather than pursuing a course of its own. This frame of mind stretches from the nuclear program, (we were forced to explode the bomb by India, which conjures the image of some one whipping the Pakistanis), to what I quoted, of finding two tunnels dug by the Indians in response to India finding one tunnel dug by the Pakistanis.
One can look at the Pakistani reaction to Indian efforts for a permanent UN seat, again one of negativity. See the Pak reaction to Clintons visit to India. The initial response was that if clinton visits India with out visiting Pakistan, then the Indians will ‘crow’, and the anti US feelings in Pakistan will explode, that was from the Pak ambassador to the US.
I am not making any value judgements on this, it could be a good policy, but it reflects my favourite thesis of TNT, a country created for the Muslims, leaving the Hindus out, with the necessary imperative that the Muslim country has to do better than the Hindu country. All that I had been arguing is that Pakistan should be the best and that can be attained only by ignoring India, by evolving the TNT to level that Pakistan should be the best Muslim country.
I am heartened by the Generals decision to scrap all of Lahore and Simla, the confidence building measures, and to go for the Kashmir. The way Kashmir has been built up into the Pak psyche, it is number one in their waking hours (I totally ignore the chowkirdars on this, the same as 2% jihadic votes) and has to be solved what ever the cost. This is a great initiative by the general, it annuls the Simla by Bhutto and Lahore by Nawaz, the treacherous acts of two democratic leaders and restores Pakistan on to the pristine course of its creation. This is not really some thing new, but only recognition of the inherent Pak tendency symbolised by Kargill. Previous wars were between the two armies; Kargill was between the people of Pakistan and the Indian army, a group of people on a religious mission to attain heaven, supported by the whole hearted donations of ‘mums and dads’of pakistan, for a cause that they believe in. This could be the most natural evolution of TNT, creation of Taliban in Afghanistan, troops to Chechniya and Kashmir, at last an autonomous TNT military, Lashkar-e- Toiba, operating under religious sanctions, the wide world of kafirs is their domain. Pakistan is the first retro-success of Lashkar, a country created by Islam, and others are on the way. Having moved to Pakistan after the partition, may be the general has the true feel of what TNT is, which the chowkirdars have no clue of, being the …irdars that they are.
I hope the new millennium will see a new Pakistan, that will deploy the anti missile system not because India has got it, that will announce the building of a thousand tunnels into Kashmir not because India has built 999.
To Dragon Slayer, response to 698,697 and 699.
The central theme of my post is that Pakistan had been responding in a reactive way to the Indian actions rather than pursuing a course of its own. This frame of mind stretches from the nuclear program, (we were forced to explode the bomb by India, which conjures the image of some one whipping the Pakistanis), to what I quoted, of finding two tunnels dug by the Indians in response to India finding one tunnel dug by the Pakistanis.
One can look at the Pakistani reaction to Indian efforts for a permanent UN seat, again one of negativity. See the Pak reaction to Clintons visit to India. The initial response was that if clinton visits India with out visiting Pakistan, then the Indians will ‘crow’, and the anti US feelings in Pakistan will explode, that was from the Pak ambassador to the US.
I am not making any value judgements on this, it could be a good policy, but it reflects my favourite thesis of TNT, a country created for the Muslims, leaving the Hindus out, with the necessary imperative that the Muslim country has to do better than the Hindu country. All that I had been arguing is that Pakistan should be the best and that can be attained only by ignoring India, by evolving the TNT to level that Pakistan should be the best Muslim country.
I am heartened by the Generals decision to scrap all of Lahore and Simla, the confidence building measures, and to go for the Kashmir. The way Kashmir has been built up into the Pak psyche, it is number one in their waking hours (I totally ignore the chowkirdars on this, the same as 2% jihadic votes) and has to be solved what ever the cost. This is a great initiative by the general, it annuls the Simla by Bhutto and Lahore by Nawaz, the treacherous acts of two democratic leaders and restores Pakistan on to the pristine course of its creation. This is not really some thing new, but only recognition of the inherent Pak tendency symbolised by Kargill. Previous wars were between the two armies; Kargill was between the people of Pakistan and the Indian army, a group of people on a religious mission to attain heaven, supported by the whole hearted donations of ‘mums and dads’of pakistan, for a cause that they believe in. This could be the most natural evolution of TNT, creation of Taliban in Afghanistan, troops to Chechniya and Kashmir, at last an autonomous TNT military, Lashkar-e- Toiba, operating under religious sanctions, the wide world of kafirs is their domain. Pakistan is the first retro-success of Lashkar, a country created by Islam, and others are on the way. Having moved to Pakistan after the partition, may be the general has the true feel of what TNT is, which the chowkirdars have no clue of, being the …irdars that they are.
I hope the new millennium will see a new Pakistan, that will deploy the anti missile system not because India has got it, that will announce the building of a thousand tunnels into Kashmir not because India has built 999.
#973 Posted by Assad_K on December 15, 1999 10:47:39 am
Chief Justice, re: 876
Agreed, then, my bad in not using inverted commas. I`ll have to keep in mind that we have a pedant on board, and also that not everyone keeps up with everyone else`s posts (my assumption was that despite my previous postings, you missed the sarcasm intended in my using the the phrase yello.. er, `yellow journalism`. I can now merely assume that you had in fact either missed my earlier postings, or chose to disregard them for your own amusement).
Seeing as how you had `judged` that the word `mutterwa` should no longer be used and the word `mutt` be used in place of it, I also assumed that `mutt` was a truncated form of the earlier word (rather than the more common meaning of slang for dog, which I was, oddly enough, aware of). Hey, seemed logical to me.. obviously I was being pedantic, or lack your grasp of grammar and/or language.
So are we one step away from ignoring issues and descending to a flame war, or are we there already?
Cheerio!
Agreed, then, my bad in not using inverted commas. I`ll have to keep in mind that we have a pedant on board, and also that not everyone keeps up with everyone else`s posts (my assumption was that despite my previous postings, you missed the sarcasm intended in my using the the phrase yello.. er, `yellow journalism`. I can now merely assume that you had in fact either missed my earlier postings, or chose to disregard them for your own amusement).
Seeing as how you had `judged` that the word `mutterwa` should no longer be used and the word `mutt` be used in place of it, I also assumed that `mutt` was a truncated form of the earlier word (rather than the more common meaning of slang for dog, which I was, oddly enough, aware of). Hey, seemed logical to me.. obviously I was being pedantic, or lack your grasp of grammar and/or language.
So are we one step away from ignoring issues and descending to a flame war, or are we there already?
Cheerio!
#972 Posted by Chief Justice on December 14, 1999 4:04:15 pm
Assad_K #850;842. C.J.#844
No, A.K., I didn`t miss the point, let alone, ``obviously``.
As you may be aware, there are certain rules in writing that convey meanings embeded in the style.
If a writer distances itself from an expression, a word, or a speech, meaning so and so said this, or the `so called`, or `not mine`, then those parts are enclosed within semantical quotes i.e., [`` ``], or [` `]. Since the ``yellow journalism`` in your
letter was without this available style, I had to interpret it as your //own// expression.
I am, to add, aware of designation, thusly, of Pakistani journalism which I take to employ the writers` license, just as you and I write `totally`, `entirely`, or absolutely; even always or ``obviously``. They are the``all-swans-are-white``
genre of expressions.
The word ``mutt``[1] is neither a truncated form of, nor has anything to do with, ethnicity. This is a very touchy issue with me. I consider it worse than being a murtadd(apostate) if a person uses an ethnic slur except for a Punjabi; I am a Punjabi. I know who //I// am).
The storm of contempt that an ethnic slur brings to my very being is truly indescribable.
A ``mutt``, Mr. Assad_K, is a silly person or a mongrel (dog). A term of dislike, although used mostly denotatively rather than conotatively in the case of dogs, as you, perhaps, are aware.
My earlier edicts? I am afraid I don`t know to which one(s) of my submissions are you making a reference.
But, I hope the above is satisfactory.
[1] ``Mutt`s`` etymology is ``mutton-head`` (``meathead`` of ``All in the Family``, TV show.). The Webster`s dictionary defines it as, 1.``a stupid person; blockhead. 2. Mongrel dog;``
No, A.K., I didn`t miss the point, let alone, ``obviously``.
As you may be aware, there are certain rules in writing that convey meanings embeded in the style.
If a writer distances itself from an expression, a word, or a speech, meaning so and so said this, or the `so called`, or `not mine`, then those parts are enclosed within semantical quotes i.e., [`` ``], or [` `]. Since the ``yellow journalism`` in your
letter was without this available style, I had to interpret it as your //own// expression.
I am, to add, aware of designation, thusly, of Pakistani journalism which I take to employ the writers` license, just as you and I write `totally`, `entirely`, or absolutely; even always or ``obviously``. They are the``all-swans-are-white``
genre of expressions.
The word ``mutt``[1] is neither a truncated form of, nor has anything to do with, ethnicity. This is a very touchy issue with me. I consider it worse than being a murtadd(apostate) if a person uses an ethnic slur except for a Punjabi; I am a Punjabi. I know who //I// am).
The storm of contempt that an ethnic slur brings to my very being is truly indescribable.
A ``mutt``, Mr. Assad_K, is a silly person or a mongrel (dog). A term of dislike, although used mostly denotatively rather than conotatively in the case of dogs, as you, perhaps, are aware.
My earlier edicts? I am afraid I don`t know to which one(s) of my submissions are you making a reference.
But, I hope the above is satisfactory.
[1] ``Mutt`s`` etymology is ``mutton-head`` (``meathead`` of ``All in the Family``, TV show.). The Webster`s dictionary defines it as, 1.``a stupid person; blockhead. 2. Mongrel dog;``
#971 Posted by bahmad on December 14, 1999 11:51:30 am
In response to SameerJB (Reply # 872)
Dear Sameer:
Your posts overwhelmingly suggest that you are a balanced Pakistan with a good mind and education.
In view of the lack of information and its dissemination, a lot of locally and regionally based Pakistanis have failed to understand and appreciate the problems in other parts of Pakistan (which even includes the dominant Punjab province). A lack of good sources of information combined with the dissemination of narratives that are based on romanticism often leads to misinformation and/or lack of balance in our understanding.
Your statement: ``The fact is that Hindu migration from Sindh effected much more adversely( economically) than in Punjab. The Hindus of Sindh were the dominent force in the business, education and intellegencia. Their departure decimated the economic and intellectual life of Sindh.``
Comment: In your statement, you are looking at only one-side of the picture. The gap created by the departure of a lot of Hindu Sindhis was filled by a wide variety of new immigrants who brought a lot of money and business experience, education, and a variety of cultures. The new immigrants made Sindh even richer than before. The new immigrants quickly dominated the scene which many so-called old Sindhis deplored both actively and passively. On the other hand, a lot of new immigrants resisted the idea of too fast assimilation with the old Sindhis (due to significant differences and due to a relatively poor understanding of Sindhi culture). Sindh is still divided between urban and rural Sindh, but the people have over the years developed a better sense of social and spatial complementarity.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
Dear Sameer:
Your posts overwhelmingly suggest that you are a balanced Pakistan with a good mind and education.
In view of the lack of information and its dissemination, a lot of locally and regionally based Pakistanis have failed to understand and appreciate the problems in other parts of Pakistan (which even includes the dominant Punjab province). A lack of good sources of information combined with the dissemination of narratives that are based on romanticism often leads to misinformation and/or lack of balance in our understanding.
Your statement: ``The fact is that Hindu migration from Sindh effected much more adversely( economically) than in Punjab. The Hindus of Sindh were the dominent force in the business, education and intellegencia. Their departure decimated the economic and intellectual life of Sindh.``
Comment: In your statement, you are looking at only one-side of the picture. The gap created by the departure of a lot of Hindu Sindhis was filled by a wide variety of new immigrants who brought a lot of money and business experience, education, and a variety of cultures. The new immigrants made Sindh even richer than before. The new immigrants quickly dominated the scene which many so-called old Sindhis deplored both actively and passively. On the other hand, a lot of new immigrants resisted the idea of too fast assimilation with the old Sindhis (due to significant differences and due to a relatively poor understanding of Sindhi culture). Sindh is still divided between urban and rural Sindh, but the people have over the years developed a better sense of social and spatial complementarity.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
#970 Posted by Assad_K on December 14, 1999 11:51:30 am
Senior Justice 873
Justice, old chum, seeing the lack of contrition at all times by NS despite numerous opportunities, if he does get back into power (by Heavy Mandate or otherwise) I don`t see a major change in his ways. Which was why I thought that as a NS manifesto, it was overly rosy. What can I say ?I don`t trust him. Or, rather, I have as much faith in him as you do in Pervez Musharraff.
Though, of course, both he and BB are very good indeed at making the right noises while out of power, and sticking to little of what they promise at the time that they can deliver, so who knows - it may yet be the shape of PML manifestos to come!
Of course, were I to post a vision of Pakistan in the year 2000 or 2001 after a couple of years of mil rule (say a speech by Musharraf as he steps down in the wake of free and fair elections, eh!)and paint a rosy picture, I`m sure the responses by Zeemax, Roohi et al would be.. well, colourful. And I can`t help but feel that you would have nary a thing to say on the subject.
{ I, as a matter of course, accept as correct
what an adult says to me.}
Hm? Aren`t we all adults? Or did I miss something again?
{ Do You know what is wrong with Pakistan? You are! And your ilk. Do you not see that your
country is being devouvered by the afreet of the law of the jungle mentality; and of self destruction.
But instead of doing something positive about it, you have the temerity, affrontry, audacity, and
impudence of contributing to it. Your train seems to have left the station!!}
And as the opinion of an adult I needs now accept as correct your assertion that I`m responsible for the ills of Pakistan, or that my patriotism is far more questionable than yours? I thought that Pakistan was being devoured by the spectre of ethnicity and corruption. The law of the jungle was being contributed to by your favoured politico and his cronies. His supporters here cheerfully put down all other ethnicities in favour of their own (`Punjab is Pakistan, indeed). You yourself feel that shoretning an ehtnic slur is far less denigrating than keeping the full term (perhaps Martin Luther King should`ve lobbied for subbing the word `nig` for nigger).
Please, let us know your positive contributions towards the uplift of Pakistan. I`m not sure that quoting Iqbal qualifies.
I hope this posterer is an appropriate reply to your posterior without taking anything out of context.
Justice, old chum, seeing the lack of contrition at all times by NS despite numerous opportunities, if he does get back into power (by Heavy Mandate or otherwise) I don`t see a major change in his ways. Which was why I thought that as a NS manifesto, it was overly rosy. What can I say ?I don`t trust him. Or, rather, I have as much faith in him as you do in Pervez Musharraff.
Though, of course, both he and BB are very good indeed at making the right noises while out of power, and sticking to little of what they promise at the time that they can deliver, so who knows - it may yet be the shape of PML manifestos to come!
Of course, were I to post a vision of Pakistan in the year 2000 or 2001 after a couple of years of mil rule (say a speech by Musharraf as he steps down in the wake of free and fair elections, eh!)and paint a rosy picture, I`m sure the responses by Zeemax, Roohi et al would be.. well, colourful. And I can`t help but feel that you would have nary a thing to say on the subject.
{ I, as a matter of course, accept as correct
what an adult says to me.}
Hm? Aren`t we all adults? Or did I miss something again?
{ Do You know what is wrong with Pakistan? You are! And your ilk. Do you not see that your
country is being devouvered by the afreet of the law of the jungle mentality; and of self destruction.
But instead of doing something positive about it, you have the temerity, affrontry, audacity, and
impudence of contributing to it. Your train seems to have left the station!!}
And as the opinion of an adult I needs now accept as correct your assertion that I`m responsible for the ills of Pakistan, or that my patriotism is far more questionable than yours? I thought that Pakistan was being devoured by the spectre of ethnicity and corruption. The law of the jungle was being contributed to by your favoured politico and his cronies. His supporters here cheerfully put down all other ethnicities in favour of their own (`Punjab is Pakistan, indeed). You yourself feel that shoretning an ehtnic slur is far less denigrating than keeping the full term (perhaps Martin Luther King should`ve lobbied for subbing the word `nig` for nigger).
Please, let us know your positive contributions towards the uplift of Pakistan. I`m not sure that quoting Iqbal qualifies.
I hope this posterer is an appropriate reply to your posterior without taking anything out of context.
#969 Posted by Senior Justice on December 14, 1999 2:59:45 am
Assad_K No. 856
Assad:
``Shikwa beja bhee karey koii to lazim hai sha`aoor.``
Please avoid misrepresentation of words written or said. I, as a matter of course, accept as correct what an adult says to me.
In your posterior you have done an injustice to the posterer to whom you were responding.
One, he had said ``should we be re-elected``, and not with a ``Heavy Mendate``.
Two, you noticed, must have, that it were the promise of a remourseful individual; words of contrition brought about by the change of fortunes in the recent past. An hypothetical scenario, granted, but enunciation of a ``desired platform``, in the opinion of the posterer. That`s it.
Before closing, let me say that all state policies, budgets, political platforms, Constitutions, organizational rules, eg., those of government service, hospitals, universities, corporate businesses, your telephone service, charters of human and civil rights, bodies of law, all are about the future; are future oriented, that is. According to you, therefore, they are all ``futuristic fantasy``.
All utopias have always been such fantasies, yet we all strive to make our societies like them. They act as the so called ideals that all societies strive to follow. To you, then they are ``futuristic fantasies``, as was Pakistan before 1947!
Do You know what is wrong with Pakistan? You are! And your ilk. Do you not see that your country is being devouvered by the afreet of the law of the jungle mentality; and of self destruction. But instead of doing something positive about it, you have the temerity, affrontry, audacity, and impudence of contributing to it. Your train seems to have left the station!!
Assad:
``Shikwa beja bhee karey koii to lazim hai sha`aoor.``
Please avoid misrepresentation of words written or said. I, as a matter of course, accept as correct what an adult says to me.
In your posterior you have done an injustice to the posterer to whom you were responding.
One, he had said ``should we be re-elected``, and not with a ``Heavy Mendate``.
Two, you noticed, must have, that it were the promise of a remourseful individual; words of contrition brought about by the change of fortunes in the recent past. An hypothetical scenario, granted, but enunciation of a ``desired platform``, in the opinion of the posterer. That`s it.
Before closing, let me say that all state policies, budgets, political platforms, Constitutions, organizational rules, eg., those of government service, hospitals, universities, corporate businesses, your telephone service, charters of human and civil rights, bodies of law, all are about the future; are future oriented, that is. According to you, therefore, they are all ``futuristic fantasy``.
All utopias have always been such fantasies, yet we all strive to make our societies like them. They act as the so called ideals that all societies strive to follow. To you, then they are ``futuristic fantasies``, as was Pakistan before 1947!
Do You know what is wrong with Pakistan? You are! And your ilk. Do you not see that your country is being devouvered by the afreet of the law of the jungle mentality; and of self destruction. But instead of doing something positive about it, you have the temerity, affrontry, audacity, and impudence of contributing to it. Your train seems to have left the station!!
#968 Posted by zeemax on December 14, 1999 1:22:27 am
Mannyd # 865
[Can your dad rise to the challenge and be a Statesman? Or is he content with micro-managing accountability and other trivial issues and playing Rambo in Kargil and circling planes over Karachi?]
You obviously have an excellant grasp of the current events to have put it so well in a nutshell. Welcome to the forum.
[I wish a happy and prosperous new millienium for all countries in South Asia. The next century belongs to us. Let us grab it or be left behind to wallow in the shallows of misery and poverty.]
In this respect you might find my post # 858, re the Manifesto of the Millenium of interest.
[Can your dad rise to the challenge and be a Statesman? Or is he content with micro-managing accountability and other trivial issues and playing Rambo in Kargil and circling planes over Karachi?]
You obviously have an excellant grasp of the current events to have put it so well in a nutshell. Welcome to the forum.
[I wish a happy and prosperous new millienium for all countries in South Asia. The next century belongs to us. Let us grab it or be left behind to wallow in the shallows of misery and poverty.]
In this respect you might find my post # 858, re the Manifesto of the Millenium of interest.