He had no Choice!
Bilal Musharraf October 14, 1999
#967 Posted by SameerJB on December 14, 1999 1:22:27 am
MANNYD # 865
Dear MAnnyd:
Your statement,``3. Kashmir issue must be resolved, but a bigger issue is betrayel of Jinnah`s dream of a secular Pakistan. If Punjab still had 40% Hindus and Sikhs with full citizenship rights, as before partition, India`s claims about Ladhak and Jammu will have no bearing. It requires statesmanship and thinking ``outside the box`` by leaders in both countries`` is a good one. I actually talked about it in one of my previous post (reply to Dulla Bhatti). I think under such conditions Pakistan would have been a secular state, better relationship with India; Kashmir issue would have been solved in Pakistan`s favor ( because it would have been a plus to Punjabi Hindus to join with Punjabi speaking Hindus of jammu), even more pronounced differences in income and prosperity levels would have forced East Pakistan`s cessation much sooner than 1971 etc etc.
Just like you I am also a Punjabi. That is why we know or talk more about Punjab. The fact is that Hindu migration from Sindh effected much more adversely( economically) than in Punjab. The Hindus of Sindh were the dominent force in the business, education and intellegencia. Their departure decimated the economic and intellectual life of Sindh. It was not until the arrival of educated immigrants from India who stabilised the situation and made Sindh a viable state what it is today. The Sindhi Hindus who left Sindh are now a powerhouse in Business and Banking industry in India partly due to their strong background.
regards,
Sameer
Dear MAnnyd:
Your statement,``3. Kashmir issue must be resolved, but a bigger issue is betrayel of Jinnah`s dream of a secular Pakistan. If Punjab still had 40% Hindus and Sikhs with full citizenship rights, as before partition, India`s claims about Ladhak and Jammu will have no bearing. It requires statesmanship and thinking ``outside the box`` by leaders in both countries`` is a good one. I actually talked about it in one of my previous post (reply to Dulla Bhatti). I think under such conditions Pakistan would have been a secular state, better relationship with India; Kashmir issue would have been solved in Pakistan`s favor ( because it would have been a plus to Punjabi Hindus to join with Punjabi speaking Hindus of jammu), even more pronounced differences in income and prosperity levels would have forced East Pakistan`s cessation much sooner than 1971 etc etc.
Just like you I am also a Punjabi. That is why we know or talk more about Punjab. The fact is that Hindu migration from Sindh effected much more adversely( economically) than in Punjab. The Hindus of Sindh were the dominent force in the business, education and intellegencia. Their departure decimated the economic and intellectual life of Sindh. It was not until the arrival of educated immigrants from India who stabilised the situation and made Sindh a viable state what it is today. The Sindhi Hindus who left Sindh are now a powerhouse in Business and Banking industry in India partly due to their strong background.
regards,
Sameer
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#966 Posted by SameerJB on December 14, 1999 1:22:27 am
BAHMAD
Dear Bilal Ahmad:
I am very thankful to you for educating me about `kafi`. As Mannyd has also pointed out, reading chowkwallas` opinions and replies have been one of the most efficient way of learning about a variety of issues. Once again thanks a lot.
I am not sure that Ayub Khan`s offer to Nehru came before or after the formation of CENTO. Nehru might have taken it as an attempt by the west to encircle communist china and USSR. Nehru being fabian socialist and proud of his leadership position in the non-aligned movement probably saw no attraction in such a proposal. Moreover, who knows what Ayub Khan`s true intentions were.
I have noticed many people have very fond memories and are nostalgic about Ayub Khan`s rule. In addition to what you have pointed out about different times and different world of the early sixties, it is bacause he took over from another military person, Iskander Mirza, that exonerated him for the truncation of the democratic process or the rulers who came after him are/were considered worse than him? I will only say that whatever ridicule you have seen of Pervez Musharraf here on the chowk, is nothing compared to what Ayub Khan must have heard on the streets of Pakistan during 1968-69. I believe getting to that low level against Ayub Khan was very unfair.
regards,
sameer
Dear Bilal Ahmad:
I am very thankful to you for educating me about `kafi`. As Mannyd has also pointed out, reading chowkwallas` opinions and replies have been one of the most efficient way of learning about a variety of issues. Once again thanks a lot.
I am not sure that Ayub Khan`s offer to Nehru came before or after the formation of CENTO. Nehru might have taken it as an attempt by the west to encircle communist china and USSR. Nehru being fabian socialist and proud of his leadership position in the non-aligned movement probably saw no attraction in such a proposal. Moreover, who knows what Ayub Khan`s true intentions were.
I have noticed many people have very fond memories and are nostalgic about Ayub Khan`s rule. In addition to what you have pointed out about different times and different world of the early sixties, it is bacause he took over from another military person, Iskander Mirza, that exonerated him for the truncation of the democratic process or the rulers who came after him are/were considered worse than him? I will only say that whatever ridicule you have seen of Pervez Musharraf here on the chowk, is nothing compared to what Ayub Khan must have heard on the streets of Pakistan during 1968-69. I believe getting to that low level against Ayub Khan was very unfair.
regards,
sameer
#965 Posted by bahmad on December 13, 1999 6:46:10 am
In response to Mannyd (Reply #: 865)
Dear Mannyd:
I have read your post with great interest. Please inform us more about your conversion into an agnostic. What kind of material did you read about the Partition? Please share the same with us in small chunks, every now and then.
I agree with the gist of your post and recommend all Chowkwalla to read it carefully. However, permit me to comment on one aspect of your post.
There were moments in our global history when the soldiers had played a crucial role in changing the course of events. Soldiers, however, have a different mindset which is not appropriate to deal with peacetime political issues in our everyday lives. I regret to inform you that I don`t share your fondness of Ayub Khan. Ayub Khan ruled over Pakistan when global politics was relatively simple, IMF and World Bank money was available in abundance to pro-American regimes around the world, and Pakistani people were not adequately educated to understand the designs of Pakistani army to consolidate its power base (in addition to many other crucial factors). Ayub Khan was an autocratic ruler and ``it was a criminal offense during his regime to create disaffection among the people of Pakistan against the established government`` (Sayeed, 1980: 63).
It would be interesting to learn more about: Why Nehru declined to accept Ayub`s offer for the ``Joint Defense``?
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
Dear Mannyd:
I have read your post with great interest. Please inform us more about your conversion into an agnostic. What kind of material did you read about the Partition? Please share the same with us in small chunks, every now and then.
I agree with the gist of your post and recommend all Chowkwalla to read it carefully. However, permit me to comment on one aspect of your post.
There were moments in our global history when the soldiers had played a crucial role in changing the course of events. Soldiers, however, have a different mindset which is not appropriate to deal with peacetime political issues in our everyday lives. I regret to inform you that I don`t share your fondness of Ayub Khan. Ayub Khan ruled over Pakistan when global politics was relatively simple, IMF and World Bank money was available in abundance to pro-American regimes around the world, and Pakistani people were not adequately educated to understand the designs of Pakistani army to consolidate its power base (in addition to many other crucial factors). Ayub Khan was an autocratic ruler and ``it was a criminal offense during his regime to create disaffection among the people of Pakistan against the established government`` (Sayeed, 1980: 63).
It would be interesting to learn more about: Why Nehru declined to accept Ayub`s offer for the ``Joint Defense``?
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
#964 Posted by krashid on December 13, 1999 2:05:50 am
Reference to Gnostics post#862
My response was in relation to 21st century constitution by Zeemax on this very board.
That is a dangerous trend.
Injustice cannot be justified because we are coward enough.
When Government of Ghulam Abbas or whatever was put into effect and Sheikh Abdullah was put into jail and all kind of treachery was applied to bypass the plebiscite in the name of pluralistic society and secularism.
And still with per capita highest number of soldiers in Kashmir the Indians are only successful in inflaming the fire further.
On moral ground, on humanistic ground, on religious ground, on Historical ground, on Geographical ground, on whatever ground you want to say, there should and cannot be normalization of relations with India, until and unless Kashmir dispute is resolved.
Kashmir dispute is a dispute created and balloned by India and not Pakistan.
The solution was simple plebiscite in or around 1948. But India`s greed and hegemonist tendencies never let it happen. And with all treachery they are standing in much worse position.
Ball is not in Pakistan`s court. It has been and is in India`s court.
Pakistan has to work hard to make India realize about this fact.
No softening on Kashmir. As a humanistic.
My response was in relation to 21st century constitution by Zeemax on this very board.
That is a dangerous trend.
Injustice cannot be justified because we are coward enough.
When Government of Ghulam Abbas or whatever was put into effect and Sheikh Abdullah was put into jail and all kind of treachery was applied to bypass the plebiscite in the name of pluralistic society and secularism.
And still with per capita highest number of soldiers in Kashmir the Indians are only successful in inflaming the fire further.
On moral ground, on humanistic ground, on religious ground, on Historical ground, on Geographical ground, on whatever ground you want to say, there should and cannot be normalization of relations with India, until and unless Kashmir dispute is resolved.
Kashmir dispute is a dispute created and balloned by India and not Pakistan.
The solution was simple plebiscite in or around 1948. But India`s greed and hegemonist tendencies never let it happen. And with all treachery they are standing in much worse position.
Ball is not in Pakistan`s court. It has been and is in India`s court.
Pakistan has to work hard to make India realize about this fact.
No softening on Kashmir. As a humanistic.
#963 Posted by mannyd on December 13, 1999 1:33:21 am
Bilal:
I am a Punjabi Brahmin, who became agnostic after reading about 1947. I migrated to USA in 1966 and have not kept up with the local politics on the sub-continent in detail. This site has educated me in two weeks but I may still have gaps in my knowledge about events and personalities. For what it is worth, here is my 2c input.
1. Your dad did have a choice, in that he could stand in the elections, when ever they were due in Pakistan to defeat Nawaz Sharif. Eisenhower is an example in USA. History will not treat the unconstitional coup of a dismissed general very well.
2. Your dad`s fasination with Turkey`s Kemal Pasha is in keeping with the Muslim Leauge tradition. However Pakistani muslims are not Turks and have more in common with India than Turkey. Peace with India is paramount for both countries.
3. Kashmir issue must be resolved, but a bigger issue is betrayel of Jinnah`s dream of a secular Pakistan. If Punjab still had 40% Hindus and Sikhs with full citizenship rights, as before partition, India`s claims about Ladhak and Jammu will have no bearing. It requires statesmanship and thinking ``outside the box`` by leaders in both countries.
3. Democratic elections do not guarantee that the elected leaders would have the above qualities. I my personal opinion, the most astute leader on the whole sub-continent in the past fifty two years was Field Marshal Ayub Khan.
Yes , he did drop 2000 lbs bombs around my hometown in 1965 while I patrolled with other volunteers with bamboo poles. But it overshadows his proposal in late fifties to Mr. Nehru about ``Joint Defense`` of the subcontinent. Mr. Nehru who was waltzing with China at that time retortrd with `` Against whom?``.
If Pandit Nehru had listened to this most sensible Pathan, Akshichin would not be in Chinese hands today. Kashmir would be one. Dalai Lama might even had gone home. Rather than China, India and Pakistan would have billions of dollars in trade surplus, instaed of waiting for handouts from IMF and world bank and staging Kargils etc.
4. Can your dad rise to the challenge and be a Statesman? Or is he content with micro-managing accountability and other trivial issues and playing Rambo in Kargil and circling planes over Karachi?
5. Nuclear power is a matter of pride for both Pakistan and India and I bask in that pride. However it requires maturity and responsibility on both countries. It is high time to step away from nuclear brinkmanship and take positive steps for friendship and peace.
I wish a happy and prosperous new millienium for all countries in South Asia. The next century belongs to us. Let us grab it or be left behind to wallow in the shallows of misery and poverty.
I am a Punjabi Brahmin, who became agnostic after reading about 1947. I migrated to USA in 1966 and have not kept up with the local politics on the sub-continent in detail. This site has educated me in two weeks but I may still have gaps in my knowledge about events and personalities. For what it is worth, here is my 2c input.
1. Your dad did have a choice, in that he could stand in the elections, when ever they were due in Pakistan to defeat Nawaz Sharif. Eisenhower is an example in USA. History will not treat the unconstitional coup of a dismissed general very well.
2. Your dad`s fasination with Turkey`s Kemal Pasha is in keeping with the Muslim Leauge tradition. However Pakistani muslims are not Turks and have more in common with India than Turkey. Peace with India is paramount for both countries.
3. Kashmir issue must be resolved, but a bigger issue is betrayel of Jinnah`s dream of a secular Pakistan. If Punjab still had 40% Hindus and Sikhs with full citizenship rights, as before partition, India`s claims about Ladhak and Jammu will have no bearing. It requires statesmanship and thinking ``outside the box`` by leaders in both countries.
3. Democratic elections do not guarantee that the elected leaders would have the above qualities. I my personal opinion, the most astute leader on the whole sub-continent in the past fifty two years was Field Marshal Ayub Khan.
Yes , he did drop 2000 lbs bombs around my hometown in 1965 while I patrolled with other volunteers with bamboo poles. But it overshadows his proposal in late fifties to Mr. Nehru about ``Joint Defense`` of the subcontinent. Mr. Nehru who was waltzing with China at that time retortrd with `` Against whom?``.
If Pandit Nehru had listened to this most sensible Pathan, Akshichin would not be in Chinese hands today. Kashmir would be one. Dalai Lama might even had gone home. Rather than China, India and Pakistan would have billions of dollars in trade surplus, instaed of waiting for handouts from IMF and world bank and staging Kargils etc.
4. Can your dad rise to the challenge and be a Statesman? Or is he content with micro-managing accountability and other trivial issues and playing Rambo in Kargil and circling planes over Karachi?
5. Nuclear power is a matter of pride for both Pakistan and India and I bask in that pride. However it requires maturity and responsibility on both countries. It is high time to step away from nuclear brinkmanship and take positive steps for friendship and peace.
I wish a happy and prosperous new millienium for all countries in South Asia. The next century belongs to us. Let us grab it or be left behind to wallow in the shallows of misery and poverty.
#962 Posted by Jumhuriat_ on December 13, 1999 1:33:21 am
Umairr #857
I thohght you were being an aneela(Firoz-ul-lughat: Bhola bhala, seedha sadha etc.), innocent, simple. However, in your case it turned out to be both simplistic //and//aneela.
My dear Umairr, the very first thing that robbers and murderers in our country do is to establish ``normalcy`` of conditions and situations so that people with intelligence, or a fair facsimile of it, would not `figure out` what`s in the offing.
Just reduce this situation to yourself (``reductio ad absurdum``, in logic): If you were to stage a coup, would you tell people that you couldn`t accept appointments in or out of you office till 21st of October since you were working on a coup? Give us some credit for being superior thinkers!
Most sincerely yours,
The Jumhuria Pakistan
I thohght you were being an aneela(Firoz-ul-lughat: Bhola bhala, seedha sadha etc.), innocent, simple. However, in your case it turned out to be both simplistic //and//aneela.
My dear Umairr, the very first thing that robbers and murderers in our country do is to establish ``normalcy`` of conditions and situations so that people with intelligence, or a fair facsimile of it, would not `figure out` what`s in the offing.
Just reduce this situation to yourself (``reductio ad absurdum``, in logic): If you were to stage a coup, would you tell people that you couldn`t accept appointments in or out of you office till 21st of October since you were working on a coup? Give us some credit for being superior thinkers!
Most sincerely yours,
The Jumhuria Pakistan
#961 Posted by mannyd on December 13, 1999 1:33:21 am
Bilal:
I am a Punjabi Brahmin, who became agnostic after reading about 1947. I migrated to USA in 1966 and have not kept up with the local politics on the sub-continent in detail. This site has educated me in two weeks but I may still have gaps in my knowledge about events and personalities. For what it is worth, here is my 2c input.
1. Your dad did have a choice, in that he could stand in the elections, when ever they were due in Pakistan to defeat Nawaz Sharif. Eisenhower is an example in USA. History will not treat the unconstitional coup of a dismissed general very well.
2. Your dad`s fasination with Turkey`s Kemal Pasha is in keeping with the Muslim Leauge tradition. However Pakistani muslims are not Turks and have more in common with India than Turkey. Peace with India is paramount for both countries.
3. Kashmir issue must be resolved, but a bigger issue is betrayel of Jinnah`s dream of a secular Pakistan. If Punjab still had 40% Hindus and Sikhs with full citizenship rights, as before partition, India`s claims about Ladhak and Jammu will have no bearing. It requires statesmanship and thinking ``outside the box`` by leaders in both countries.
3. Democratic elections do not guarantee that the elected leaders would have the above qualities. I my personal opinion, the most astute leader on the whole sub-continent in the past fifty two years was Field Marshal Ayub Khan.
Yes , he did drop 2000 lbs bombs around my hometown in 1965 while I patrolled with other volunteers with bamboo poles. But it overshadows his proposal in late fifties to Mr. Nehru about ``Joint Defense`` of the subcontinent. Mr. Nehru who was waltzing with China at that time retortrd with `` Against whom?``.
If Pandit Nehru had listened to this most sensible Pathan, Akshichin would not be in Chinese hands today. Kashmir would be one. Dalai Lama might even had gone home. Rather than China, India and Pakistan would have billions of dollars in trade surplus, instaed of waiting for handouts from IMF and world bank and staging Kargils etc.
4. Can your dad rise to the challenge and be a Statesman? Or is he content with micro-managing accountability and other trivial issues and playing Rambo in Kargil and circling planes over Karachi?
5. Nuclear power is a matter of pride for both Pakistan and India and I bask in that pride. However it requires maturity and responsibility on both countries. It is high time to step away from nuclear brinkmanship and take positive steps for friendship and peace.
I wish a happy and prosperous new millienium for all countries in South Asia. The next century belongs to us. Let us grab it or be left behind to wallow in the shallows of misery and poverty.
I am a Punjabi Brahmin, who became agnostic after reading about 1947. I migrated to USA in 1966 and have not kept up with the local politics on the sub-continent in detail. This site has educated me in two weeks but I may still have gaps in my knowledge about events and personalities. For what it is worth, here is my 2c input.
1. Your dad did have a choice, in that he could stand in the elections, when ever they were due in Pakistan to defeat Nawaz Sharif. Eisenhower is an example in USA. History will not treat the unconstitional coup of a dismissed general very well.
2. Your dad`s fasination with Turkey`s Kemal Pasha is in keeping with the Muslim Leauge tradition. However Pakistani muslims are not Turks and have more in common with India than Turkey. Peace with India is paramount for both countries.
3. Kashmir issue must be resolved, but a bigger issue is betrayel of Jinnah`s dream of a secular Pakistan. If Punjab still had 40% Hindus and Sikhs with full citizenship rights, as before partition, India`s claims about Ladhak and Jammu will have no bearing. It requires statesmanship and thinking ``outside the box`` by leaders in both countries.
3. Democratic elections do not guarantee that the elected leaders would have the above qualities. I my personal opinion, the most astute leader on the whole sub-continent in the past fifty two years was Field Marshal Ayub Khan.
Yes , he did drop 2000 lbs bombs around my hometown in 1965 while I patrolled with other volunteers with bamboo poles. But it overshadows his proposal in late fifties to Mr. Nehru about ``Joint Defense`` of the subcontinent. Mr. Nehru who was waltzing with China at that time retortrd with `` Against whom?``.
If Pandit Nehru had listened to this most sensible Pathan, Akshichin would not be in Chinese hands today. Kashmir would be one. Dalai Lama might even had gone home. Rather than China, India and Pakistan would have billions of dollars in trade surplus, instaed of waiting for handouts from IMF and world bank and staging Kargils etc.
4. Can your dad rise to the challenge and be a Statesman? Or is he content with micro-managing accountability and other trivial issues and playing Rambo in Kargil and circling planes over Karachi?
5. Nuclear power is a matter of pride for both Pakistan and India and I bask in that pride. However it requires maturity and responsibility on both countries. It is high time to step away from nuclear brinkmanship and take positive steps for friendship and peace.
I wish a happy and prosperous new millienium for all countries in South Asia. The next century belongs to us. Let us grab it or be left behind to wallow in the shallows of misery and poverty.
#960 Posted by jay on December 13, 1999 1:33:21 am
NOSTRADAMUS ON PAKISTAN
While delineating the future course for Pakistan, the superstitious can consult the following by Nostradamus. It is generally believed that Pakistan is referred to as Indusland by the great sage and the following being in an ancient latin with french intonations can be liberally interpreted.
AB INITIO INDUSLAND CONTINUUM DICTATORIOUS MULTI DECADUM, ISLAMUS ARMOUR SUPREMUS. IPSO FACTO SPACIOUS AUTOCRATUM DOMINATION.
CORPSO NUMEROUS NOSEUM.
Funny, he didn’t write much about Pakistan.
While delineating the future course for Pakistan, the superstitious can consult the following by Nostradamus. It is generally believed that Pakistan is referred to as Indusland by the great sage and the following being in an ancient latin with french intonations can be liberally interpreted.
AB INITIO INDUSLAND CONTINUUM DICTATORIOUS MULTI DECADUM, ISLAMUS ARMOUR SUPREMUS. IPSO FACTO SPACIOUS AUTOCRATUM DOMINATION.
CORPSO NUMEROUS NOSEUM.
Funny, he didn’t write much about Pakistan.
#959 Posted by Umairr on December 12, 1999 6:19:01 pm
Interesting letter in the NEWS, Pakistan:
Political pygmies
Arooj Jalil
This is a brief message for the Sharifs and the Bhuttos and their cronies. To all of you power hungry, wealth-seeking thieves and dacoits we, the ``real`` Pakistanis, who actually work hard, pay taxes, drive Suzukis and speak the truth (something you all have no concept of) have only this to say: We do not need you--you need us and Pakistan.
I am disgusted by news reports which comment about the ``bad`` condition of the jails that Mr Sharif and his friends are in. Please remember that over 60 per cent of our country`s population live in conditions much worse than that. You are getting three meals a day and clean drinking water--they don`t. And what did you do for them in all those years of power?
``Marz utaro, mulk sanwaro`` (re-pay debt, rebuild Pakistan). What happened to that money collected from the poor and patriotic people who are suffering its bleak consequences in silence every single day of their lives. And how much did the rich and famous contribute or was their contribution towards the increase of the debt enough?
I am very disappointed with the so-called political leadership we have had so far. They were removed on charges of corruption and then came back to do the very same all over again.
When will we Pakistanis wake up? We have only ourselves to blame for electing these infamous premiers. People of Pakistan, please wake up. Allah helps those who help themselves.
Rawalpindi
Political pygmies
Arooj Jalil
This is a brief message for the Sharifs and the Bhuttos and their cronies. To all of you power hungry, wealth-seeking thieves and dacoits we, the ``real`` Pakistanis, who actually work hard, pay taxes, drive Suzukis and speak the truth (something you all have no concept of) have only this to say: We do not need you--you need us and Pakistan.
I am disgusted by news reports which comment about the ``bad`` condition of the jails that Mr Sharif and his friends are in. Please remember that over 60 per cent of our country`s population live in conditions much worse than that. You are getting three meals a day and clean drinking water--they don`t. And what did you do for them in all those years of power?
``Marz utaro, mulk sanwaro`` (re-pay debt, rebuild Pakistan). What happened to that money collected from the poor and patriotic people who are suffering its bleak consequences in silence every single day of their lives. And how much did the rich and famous contribute or was their contribution towards the increase of the debt enough?
I am very disappointed with the so-called political leadership we have had so far. They were removed on charges of corruption and then came back to do the very same all over again.
When will we Pakistanis wake up? We have only ourselves to blame for electing these infamous premiers. People of Pakistan, please wake up. Allah helps those who help themselves.
Rawalpindi
#958 Posted by Gnostics on December 12, 1999 8:16:01 am
krashid #861
By this time, if you have been reading the posts on this Board carefully, you must have reached the conclusion that the writers //are// quite eminently versed in the history of what happenened in the sub-continent //and// elsewhere.
This Board has attempted to keep itself focused on the current crisis (uftad-o-khalfishar) in Pakistan, its analysis and perhaps some possible solution(s).
If you caefully -- or even not so carefully -- read some of the posts, you would notice that individuals both within and without Pakistan have said things about the army`s action and, most particularly, about the seditious and mutinous leader which would require very `jurry`,jawan, individuals.
The Mian and Nayyar Board has mainly discussed the Kashmir issue. On that point you may have noticed that many current writers on this Board also ``fight``on that one, //and//some have , in view of the need for it, I am confident, have left this Board entirely to take care of discussions -- which descend on them in `cats and dogs` rain fashion -- on that Board.
This Board, to reiterate, exists in response to Mr. Bilal Musharraf`s position about his father`s rationalization(s) to become a CE, in the fashion of the hiwaymen or the pirates.
Sometime ago, if I recall correctly, Gautama Buddha made an appeal, (I had the same feelings, perhaps expressed elsewhere), that we keep this Board focused on Mr. Bilal Musharraf`s topic.
I would suggest that you, given the intensity of your feelings, like the rest of us, of course, for Pakistan, participate on both Boards, as some others are doing and keep the ``shama`a`` of our love for the country`s welfare alight.
Mr. Nehru, on his visit to the United States, was taking a stroll in the Rose Garden of the White House with President Kennedy.
``Peace with us, Mr. President, is a passion``, declared Mr. Nehru, while at that moment Indian forces were invading and occupying Goa! Good anecdote but it would muddy up the waters for our discussion on the current crisis in Pakistan. Right? Good!
Best wishes and good thoughts. Ciao for now.
Gnostic
By this time, if you have been reading the posts on this Board carefully, you must have reached the conclusion that the writers //are// quite eminently versed in the history of what happenened in the sub-continent //and// elsewhere.
This Board has attempted to keep itself focused on the current crisis (uftad-o-khalfishar) in Pakistan, its analysis and perhaps some possible solution(s).
If you caefully -- or even not so carefully -- read some of the posts, you would notice that individuals both within and without Pakistan have said things about the army`s action and, most particularly, about the seditious and mutinous leader which would require very `jurry`,jawan, individuals.
The Mian and Nayyar Board has mainly discussed the Kashmir issue. On that point you may have noticed that many current writers on this Board also ``fight``on that one, //and//some have , in view of the need for it, I am confident, have left this Board entirely to take care of discussions -- which descend on them in `cats and dogs` rain fashion -- on that Board.
This Board, to reiterate, exists in response to Mr. Bilal Musharraf`s position about his father`s rationalization(s) to become a CE, in the fashion of the hiwaymen or the pirates.
Sometime ago, if I recall correctly, Gautama Buddha made an appeal, (I had the same feelings, perhaps expressed elsewhere), that we keep this Board focused on Mr. Bilal Musharraf`s topic.
I would suggest that you, given the intensity of your feelings, like the rest of us, of course, for Pakistan, participate on both Boards, as some others are doing and keep the ``shama`a`` of our love for the country`s welfare alight.
Mr. Nehru, on his visit to the United States, was taking a stroll in the Rose Garden of the White House with President Kennedy.
``Peace with us, Mr. President, is a passion``, declared Mr. Nehru, while at that moment Indian forces were invading and occupying Goa! Good anecdote but it would muddy up the waters for our discussion on the current crisis in Pakistan. Right? Good!
Best wishes and good thoughts. Ciao for now.
Gnostic
#957 Posted by krashid on December 12, 1999 1:08:35 am
Why are we so coward. Or while the people of Pakistan were struggling, our so called intelligentia was having personal opportunistic agenda.
Why Kashmir issue to leave like this.
After partition of India and Pakistan, India attacked Junagadh and Hyderabad and annexed it on the pretext that the Raja of these places who decided to join Pakistan did it against the wishes of people. And behold there was no plebiscite to know what people wanted.
And history of annexation of Kashmir by India is a history of treachery where all bounds of fairness were set aside with rhetoric of India being a pluralistic society.
Shame on all cowards on this board who are ignorant of the history and want to drink their wine on bed rather than standing up to truth.
Why Kashmir issue to leave like this.
After partition of India and Pakistan, India attacked Junagadh and Hyderabad and annexed it on the pretext that the Raja of these places who decided to join Pakistan did it against the wishes of people. And behold there was no plebiscite to know what people wanted.
And history of annexation of Kashmir by India is a history of treachery where all bounds of fairness were set aside with rhetoric of India being a pluralistic society.
Shame on all cowards on this board who are ignorant of the history and want to drink their wine on bed rather than standing up to truth.
#956 Posted by SameerJB on December 11, 1999 2:25:12 pm
ZEEMAX # 858
Dear Zeemax:
Very thoughtful and well laid out ideas about the next century. I may disagree little bit with two different Provinces and overemphasis about Kashmir issue. I would like to see delinking of Kashmir from other bilateral issues of trade and cultural exchanges so that peace and normalization of relations must prevail despite differences. All in all, a very good approach.
You might have seen my post also where I put my alter ego in NS mind. I do believe, however, if he gets another chance, he will have to be more liberal, progressive and forthcoming on social issues because he will be distancing himself from leftovers of Zia era, Ejaz-Ul-Haq and other Tablighi Jamaatis who look so opportunists and hypocrats right now.
Good to see RoohiAD back. She might have some information about MQM and Musharaf dealings. But without large number of MNA,s from PML and PPP, it will be difficult to put together a coalition in the present National Assembly, unless a large number of MNA,s form PML and PPP are disqualified.
regards,
Sameer
Dear Zeemax:
Very thoughtful and well laid out ideas about the next century. I may disagree little bit with two different Provinces and overemphasis about Kashmir issue. I would like to see delinking of Kashmir from other bilateral issues of trade and cultural exchanges so that peace and normalization of relations must prevail despite differences. All in all, a very good approach.
You might have seen my post also where I put my alter ego in NS mind. I do believe, however, if he gets another chance, he will have to be more liberal, progressive and forthcoming on social issues because he will be distancing himself from leftovers of Zia era, Ejaz-Ul-Haq and other Tablighi Jamaatis who look so opportunists and hypocrats right now.
Good to see RoohiAD back. She might have some information about MQM and Musharaf dealings. But without large number of MNA,s from PML and PPP, it will be difficult to put together a coalition in the present National Assembly, unless a large number of MNA,s form PML and PPP are disqualified.
regards,
Sameer
#955 Posted by zeemax on December 11, 1999 2:06:49 am
Re Umair/r # 857
Hahaha .. this is so funny I`m rolling on the floor. LOL. ROTFLMAO. Dear Umair/r do you know who M.P. Bhandara is ? He`s the owner of Murree Brewery. Obviously the general would not lose any oportunity to get drunk and celebrate after the coup .. Hahaha. Oops sorry !
Hahaha .. this is so funny I`m rolling on the floor. LOL. ROTFLMAO. Dear Umair/r do you know who M.P. Bhandara is ? He`s the owner of Murree Brewery. Obviously the general would not lose any oportunity to get drunk and celebrate after the coup .. Hahaha. Oops sorry !
#954 Posted by zeemax on December 11, 1999 1:42:26 am
Ikkisween Sadi Dastoor - The Millenium Manifesto:
Proposed manifesto of a new political party.
Political :
1) Maintenance and preservation of the 1973 constitution in it`s original form sans all amendments. It is recognised that the 1973 constitution was created with unanimous consent of all the political parties and provinces, hence only the 1973 constitution can safeguard each one`s rights.
2) Freedom of gathering, expression, and speech. Pakistan Television and Radio to be made fully autonomous bodies on the pattern of British Broadcasting Corporation. Ministries of Information at all levels to be abolished.
3) A consensus to be reached on a two party system; Liberal and Conservative; to replace the 20 or so major political parties, in order to end the severe polarisation that exists in the socio-political fabric.
4) Clarification of national identity and the two-nation theory in the light of 52 years of experience. It is felt that the two-nation theory interpreted purely on the basis of religion ceased to be valid after secession of East Pakistan. Interpretation of Two-Nation theory to be reverted to the original basis as envisaged by M.A Jinnah, i.e. economic considerations of the Muslim minority in undivided India. Text Book Board to revise educational text-books in the light of original interpretation of the national identity and meaning of the two-nation theory.
Provinces :
1)The Economic Coordination Council (ECC) to be abolished. All provinces to be made fully autonomous in their revenue and expenditure so any feeling of exploitation of smaller provinces is removed. State Bank to finance any gaps in any provinces` budgets from surpluses of other provinces or from domestic savings at market mark-up rates.
2) Two new provinces to be formed. Karachi and Saraiki. Karachi to include the Karachi city within it`s administrative limits.
Seraiki to include Multan, Dera Ghazi Khan, Shakar Garh, Dera Ismail khan and the Indus West Bank region.
3) NWFP to be renamed as Hazara Pakhtunkhwa.
4) Quota system in government jobs to be abolished. All appointments to be on merit alone.
Foreign Policy :
1)Regional Cooperation For Development (RCD) as initiated by Ayub Khan to be revived. The original membership of RCD consisting Pakistan, Iran and Turkey to be expanded to include India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. The objective of RCD to promote regional understanding through cultural and media exchanges .
2) Irritants to be removed in relations with the USA and the European Union on issues like Terrorism and Drug Enforcement.
3) Complete Disengagement from Afghanistan. Sealing of borders with Afghanistan till the time a stable and representative government is formed in that country. Diplomatic ties to be maintained for advice and influence. It is recognised that active engagement in Afghanistan has done great and perhaps irreperable damage to Pakistan.
4) Status Quo to be maintained in relation with the Gulf States and Saudi Arabia.
Defence :
1) No-War-pact to be signed with India. Bilateral and simultaneous withdrawal from the Line of Control and the International Borders. A summit to be held in either Delhi or Lahore with the single-point agenda to honour the war-dead of both countries.
2) Line of Control to be made permanent into an International Border in return for India agreeing to withdraw from Siachen. Siachen to be declared as no-man`s-land by mutual treaty.
3) Immediate cessation of active militant interference in Kashmir. A recognition and expression of the realities as follows:
a) Kashmir does not belong to Pakistan regardless of historical events during partition, and is not likely to belong to Pakistan even after a referendum or self-determination. If Kashmir thus is a secessionist movement it is an internal matter of India.
b) Human rights violations in Kashmir are wrong and the party will continue to raise it`s voice on purely humanitarian grounds as called for in Chechneya or Kososvo or any other such spots in the world. The Party has faith that the United Nations and other bodies also will intervene to prevent human rights abuses in Kashmir.
c) Pakistan is not at military parity with India nor equipped to to occupy Kashmir by force. Even if it was, it would be an agressive and expansionist act which is morally wrong and unacceptable to the world community. Therefore a complete disavowment of any military action for resolution of the Kashmir dispute.
d) A realisation that although solution of the Kashmir Dispute is ingrained in our hearts by our environmental and political influences, policies of losing Pakistan in the pursuit of gaining Kashmir cannot be sustained.
e) Nuclear program to be maintained in line with the regional balance of power. CTBT to be signed unilaterally as well as the Nuclear Non-Profileration Agreement. Nuclear program to be developed solely on computer simulated testing basis.
Economy :
1) A negotiated debt moratorium on IMF and World Bank loans for a period of two years. Commercial debt like swap loans to be serviced normally in order to keep the commercial debt ratings up.
2) Keynesian model of deficit financing by printing of currency notes to be followed. Production of additional goods and services to match the aditional money in circulation within three months to avoid inflation. Money thus printed to be spent on capital and manpower intensive projects e.g. housing, motorcycles, automobiles and infrastructural projects of roads and telecommunications in order to create jobs and demand to jumpstart the economy out of the current recession. IT Industry to be given special emphasis. Software Parks to be developed in cooperation with the Banglore industry of India.
3) A Resolution Trust Corporation to be formed to buy the defaulted loans of nationalised banks at a viable discounted price. The corporation`s equity to be financed by junk bond flotations on the international market. The corporation to be staffed by the most energetic and experienced bankers to find ways to recover the bad debts through revival or sale of the sick industry. Nationalised banks then to be privatised after transfer of their bad loans as above.
4)A common market on the lines of the European Union to be initiated by the States of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. Since the hard currency resources need to be preserved in the region, the trading unit between the region to be either Barter Trade through Escrow accounts or Special Drawing Rights (SDR) to reduce dependance on a dollar based settlement system.
5)Free trade between all the member countries of the region with a reciprocal tariff structure.
6)Construction of Kala Bagh Dam to be commenced without delay.
7) WAPDA to be first split into two seperate entities respectively for Power and Water supplies and then further split into managable regional units as subsidiaries. Minority ownership of the units to be privatised.
8) Tax structure to be simplified and revenue base broadened by abolishing numerous taxes like wealth tax, property tax, excise duty and surcharges etc., and replacing them with an across the board tax on consumption.
9) Maximum allocations to be made in the federal budget towards development of Human Resource through education and social reforms.
10)Defence Budget to be reduced in proportion and reciprocally with India in view of a no-war-pact, by placing a moratorium on further recruitments and military hardware purchases.
The way forward for Pakistan in the globalisation trends of next millenium !
Any other path would likely lead to international isolation and further dismembermement of the country.
Comments ?
Zeemax
Proposed manifesto of a new political party.
Political :
1) Maintenance and preservation of the 1973 constitution in it`s original form sans all amendments. It is recognised that the 1973 constitution was created with unanimous consent of all the political parties and provinces, hence only the 1973 constitution can safeguard each one`s rights.
2) Freedom of gathering, expression, and speech. Pakistan Television and Radio to be made fully autonomous bodies on the pattern of British Broadcasting Corporation. Ministries of Information at all levels to be abolished.
3) A consensus to be reached on a two party system; Liberal and Conservative; to replace the 20 or so major political parties, in order to end the severe polarisation that exists in the socio-political fabric.
4) Clarification of national identity and the two-nation theory in the light of 52 years of experience. It is felt that the two-nation theory interpreted purely on the basis of religion ceased to be valid after secession of East Pakistan. Interpretation of Two-Nation theory to be reverted to the original basis as envisaged by M.A Jinnah, i.e. economic considerations of the Muslim minority in undivided India. Text Book Board to revise educational text-books in the light of original interpretation of the national identity and meaning of the two-nation theory.
Provinces :
1)The Economic Coordination Council (ECC) to be abolished. All provinces to be made fully autonomous in their revenue and expenditure so any feeling of exploitation of smaller provinces is removed. State Bank to finance any gaps in any provinces` budgets from surpluses of other provinces or from domestic savings at market mark-up rates.
2) Two new provinces to be formed. Karachi and Saraiki. Karachi to include the Karachi city within it`s administrative limits.
Seraiki to include Multan, Dera Ghazi Khan, Shakar Garh, Dera Ismail khan and the Indus West Bank region.
3) NWFP to be renamed as Hazara Pakhtunkhwa.
4) Quota system in government jobs to be abolished. All appointments to be on merit alone.
Foreign Policy :
1)Regional Cooperation For Development (RCD) as initiated by Ayub Khan to be revived. The original membership of RCD consisting Pakistan, Iran and Turkey to be expanded to include India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. The objective of RCD to promote regional understanding through cultural and media exchanges .
2) Irritants to be removed in relations with the USA and the European Union on issues like Terrorism and Drug Enforcement.
3) Complete Disengagement from Afghanistan. Sealing of borders with Afghanistan till the time a stable and representative government is formed in that country. Diplomatic ties to be maintained for advice and influence. It is recognised that active engagement in Afghanistan has done great and perhaps irreperable damage to Pakistan.
4) Status Quo to be maintained in relation with the Gulf States and Saudi Arabia.
Defence :
1) No-War-pact to be signed with India. Bilateral and simultaneous withdrawal from the Line of Control and the International Borders. A summit to be held in either Delhi or Lahore with the single-point agenda to honour the war-dead of both countries.
2) Line of Control to be made permanent into an International Border in return for India agreeing to withdraw from Siachen. Siachen to be declared as no-man`s-land by mutual treaty.
3) Immediate cessation of active militant interference in Kashmir. A recognition and expression of the realities as follows:
a) Kashmir does not belong to Pakistan regardless of historical events during partition, and is not likely to belong to Pakistan even after a referendum or self-determination. If Kashmir thus is a secessionist movement it is an internal matter of India.
b) Human rights violations in Kashmir are wrong and the party will continue to raise it`s voice on purely humanitarian grounds as called for in Chechneya or Kososvo or any other such spots in the world. The Party has faith that the United Nations and other bodies also will intervene to prevent human rights abuses in Kashmir.
c) Pakistan is not at military parity with India nor equipped to to occupy Kashmir by force. Even if it was, it would be an agressive and expansionist act which is morally wrong and unacceptable to the world community. Therefore a complete disavowment of any military action for resolution of the Kashmir dispute.
d) A realisation that although solution of the Kashmir Dispute is ingrained in our hearts by our environmental and political influences, policies of losing Pakistan in the pursuit of gaining Kashmir cannot be sustained.
e) Nuclear program to be maintained in line with the regional balance of power. CTBT to be signed unilaterally as well as the Nuclear Non-Profileration Agreement. Nuclear program to be developed solely on computer simulated testing basis.
Economy :
1) A negotiated debt moratorium on IMF and World Bank loans for a period of two years. Commercial debt like swap loans to be serviced normally in order to keep the commercial debt ratings up.
2) Keynesian model of deficit financing by printing of currency notes to be followed. Production of additional goods and services to match the aditional money in circulation within three months to avoid inflation. Money thus printed to be spent on capital and manpower intensive projects e.g. housing, motorcycles, automobiles and infrastructural projects of roads and telecommunications in order to create jobs and demand to jumpstart the economy out of the current recession. IT Industry to be given special emphasis. Software Parks to be developed in cooperation with the Banglore industry of India.
3) A Resolution Trust Corporation to be formed to buy the defaulted loans of nationalised banks at a viable discounted price. The corporation`s equity to be financed by junk bond flotations on the international market. The corporation to be staffed by the most energetic and experienced bankers to find ways to recover the bad debts through revival or sale of the sick industry. Nationalised banks then to be privatised after transfer of their bad loans as above.
4)A common market on the lines of the European Union to be initiated by the States of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. Since the hard currency resources need to be preserved in the region, the trading unit between the region to be either Barter Trade through Escrow accounts or Special Drawing Rights (SDR) to reduce dependance on a dollar based settlement system.
5)Free trade between all the member countries of the region with a reciprocal tariff structure.
6)Construction of Kala Bagh Dam to be commenced without delay.
7) WAPDA to be first split into two seperate entities respectively for Power and Water supplies and then further split into managable regional units as subsidiaries. Minority ownership of the units to be privatised.
8) Tax structure to be simplified and revenue base broadened by abolishing numerous taxes like wealth tax, property tax, excise duty and surcharges etc., and replacing them with an across the board tax on consumption.
9) Maximum allocations to be made in the federal budget towards development of Human Resource through education and social reforms.
10)Defence Budget to be reduced in proportion and reciprocally with India in view of a no-war-pact, by placing a moratorium on further recruitments and military hardware purchases.
The way forward for Pakistan in the globalisation trends of next millenium !
Any other path would likely lead to international isolation and further dismembermement of the country.
Comments ?
Zeemax
#953 Posted by Umairr on December 11, 1999 1:42:26 am
Article from Dawn, Pakistan (www.dawn.com):
Elitists can advise, not deliver
By M.P. Bhandara
``General Pervez Musharraf has been a neighbour of mine since October last year and my acquaintance with him extends over the same period. My impression of him is that of a straightforward uncomplicated soldierly personality with more than a passing interest in the fundamental problems of the country. However, he may only now be appreciating the complexities, tangles and contradictions of political life.
In the spirit of good-neighbourliness he kindly accepted an invitation to dinner on October 9, which invitation was reconfirmed on October 2. Formal invitations were issued to some other guests as well. On October 5 his Principal Secretary informed me that the Chief had to proceed to Sri Lanka on an official visit till October 12 and suggested that the dinner date be refixed on October 14 - a date that did not suit me as I intended to travel abroad on that day.
The point of this narration is that a potential coup-maker does not visit a foreign country and accept social engagements for the days preceding or following an intended coup. This is what leads to my conviction that no coup was staged on October 12 and that the course of actions taken was in self-defence and led to the overthrow of an unpopular government.``
(DAWN)
Elitists can advise, not deliver
By M.P. Bhandara
``General Pervez Musharraf has been a neighbour of mine since October last year and my acquaintance with him extends over the same period. My impression of him is that of a straightforward uncomplicated soldierly personality with more than a passing interest in the fundamental problems of the country. However, he may only now be appreciating the complexities, tangles and contradictions of political life.
In the spirit of good-neighbourliness he kindly accepted an invitation to dinner on October 9, which invitation was reconfirmed on October 2. Formal invitations were issued to some other guests as well. On October 5 his Principal Secretary informed me that the Chief had to proceed to Sri Lanka on an official visit till October 12 and suggested that the dinner date be refixed on October 14 - a date that did not suit me as I intended to travel abroad on that day.
The point of this narration is that a potential coup-maker does not visit a foreign country and accept social engagements for the days preceding or following an intended coup. This is what leads to my conviction that no coup was staged on October 12 and that the course of actions taken was in self-defence and led to the overthrow of an unpopular government.``
(DAWN)
#952 Posted by Assad_K on December 11, 1999 1:42:26 am
Sameer JB, re:855
`tis the season to be jolly, so :
Ho. Ho. Ho.
Since Mr. Sharif was in no mind to do anything even remotely similar to all the `changes` you have envisaged after being dismissed, reinstated by the Supreme Court and then reelected with the Heavy Mandate, the date you have given as March 27, 2000 shows the tale appropriately as futuristic fantasy.
`tis the season to be jolly, so :
Ho. Ho. Ho.
Since Mr. Sharif was in no mind to do anything even remotely similar to all the `changes` you have envisaged after being dismissed, reinstated by the Supreme Court and then reelected with the Heavy Mandate, the date you have given as March 27, 2000 shows the tale appropriately as futuristic fantasy.