He had no Choice!

SameerJB 938; #925,928,930,934.

Dear SameerJB:

You are not only referred to, but mentioned by name in #930(paragraph 6&7). I am afraid I was not able to mention many more by names or indicate by reference, since my premier purpose was to use an example and not to prepare a census of respondents.

In physics let`s say we are dealing with the theories of relativity, and, quantum mechanics. Difficult areas!

Somebody throws in the case of ``The Mayor and the Fig Leaf``. [Nothing to do with the Mayor of New York and the Secretary for HUD, in your part of the world]!

But, you say, what does this mayor and the fig leaf have to do with the theoris of quantum and relativity physics?

That is the nub of the problem. Mayor and the Fig Leaf are not ``relevant`` variables in this case; even if the latter are a story par excellence in the Zen literature.

Of course, there are major and minor issues, some short term, others long term, goals that are ultimate, and penultimate. Then some intermediate. As the young people say, `I hear you`. I know `where you are coming from`. But `at the end of the day` we have to deal with the `relevant variables`, SameerJB, which, in this case are/have been determined by Mr. B.Musharraf`s statement, and our opening salvos.

Sincerely,

XXYZ

Dua`go # 937

I think 7 billion rupees can not be that easily converted to 125 million dollars to buy tanks or any other imported items. Most of the imports, except part of the grain imports under PL-480, require payments in foreign currency. At presents, the major sources of foreign exchange are exports (cotton, rice, textiles and leather and sporting goods), remittance from overseas Pakistanis, foreign currency accounts, loans and foreign currency denominated bonds, with foreign currency accounts already almost depleted. I am not sure, if State Bank of Pakistan buys any dollars for rupees in the open market. It will plunge the value of rupee if large amounts are to be converted. The supposed 7 billion rupees saving will either decrease the deficit financing through borrowing from the Pakistani Banks or used in some fashion to create jobs.

Re: XXYZ # 930

(You are a reasonable man and one of the minority of two or three in this whole discussion to which I have made a reference. I really expected a more thoughtful and considered response from you or others in this exchange.)

Hey, am I one of those two or three reasonable individuals you are referring to? I hope to be a reasonable person but once in a while I do get carried away as you must have noticed from my posts. I believe Pakistani people have a variety of concerns, some of them, though require more attention than others. There are immediate concerns and there are long term concerns. That is why, most of the posts are about governance and economy. Unfortunately I am no pseudo-, semi-, hemi-, or demi- intellectual in any of these areas to be able to stay focused indefinitely. I am really here to learn from others opinions and hope to learn something from your future posts as well.

regards`

Sameer

Re. my post# 934

I just received the latest quotes on tanks:

1. an M1A3 would be about 4million apiece.

2. The latest version of the state of the art (SOTA) will set you back $19m apiece. Take your pick or average it out.

(Source: Library, the net, and the son of a retd. Pakistani major/col. who is a broker in buying tope-talwar for Pakistan; headquartered in New York).

#532

Roohi, A.D.:

There is no GENERAL M as of October 12,1999. ``Retd``, ``Ex``, now (naqli GENERAL=) ``Jernail``, is ok., but please don`t contribute to my high blood pressure by referring to him, or addressing him as ``GENERAL``.

Alternatively, there are appropriate adjectives available e.g., clown.

I thought earlier, as somebody pointed out, that he is ``crazy as a fox``. Now I think the miserable creature is just crazy.

Somebody encouraged &/or put him to it. Maybe one or two of his Corp commander(s), in which case let him add to the mess a little more when a new Savior, Messiah, might just show up to ``save`` the nation from ``total `destruction```, (`collapse`,`shame`, `danger`.... take your pick).

But Paaleeesee, no ``GENERAL``.

pu li #932:

`..Should someone be looking at some sort of light rail or some similar form of transport...`

i believe there is local trains service as well in delhi.

the problem is, lo and behold, too many people and not enough space.

`...so there is no hope for the Delhi buses unless the Japanese also import bus drivers and conductors from Japan...`

hey if the japs can teach us how to drive safely and the virtue of washing our clothes before setting in the driver`s seat, i am all for it. zen and the art of bus-driving... sounds good to me.

Re: reduction of Rs.7 billion in the defence budget.

Somebody please guide me. According to my caculation seven billion rupees equal around $127 million, the price of ten tanks. Is this some kind of a shell game going on, or am I really mistaken in my arithematic? Please help!

Re: XXYZ

If we were able to do what you ask of us we wouldn`t have any problems in the country. We are used to deal with national problems in terms of so and so did this. Why couldn`t such and so do that? You see, we are over qualified to do the kind of mundane job you are asking us, poor souls, to do.

It is our national character. I wonder if, after the Lamarkian theory, this cultural trait hasn`t become a genetic characteristic of ours! Another reason for not doing anything.

We will always be the losers, you know. You see, to tell you the truth, they did this to us then, and, they did that to us now. And they will do the same to us in the future too. We are their victims. They run the bureaucracies, financial institutions, the armed forces; they are wadhereys and land owners, and they get elected to political/civil offices and loot us and agonize us. They make us vote the way //they// want us to. And they make our lives living hell if we don`t vote the way they want us to.

Now, why 80 percent of us didn`t vote for anybody in the last elections is a puzzle wrapped in an enigma. You tell us what should we do. Please. Thank you for your kind attention.

I beg to remain, sir,

Your most obedient servant

Haqeer, pur Taqseer,

Dua`go

sadna #174

“As far as India and Pakistan are concerned we are talking about 1billion + 140 million people having to rub along.”

I am sorry, but it is beside the point, and it does not answer my question. I was under the impression that India should not worry about anything else but her own “national interests” - as the GOI see fit…. I can cut and paste examples of comments to that effect from other boards to support my assertion if you like?

We are not talking about what, in reality, is in the interest of the people of subcontinent or the world at large…. No, no, none of that idealist BS. We are not going to get starry eyed here and talk about peaceful coexistence, or the suffering of humanity… Who gives a sh#t about that? We are talking about the perceived/imagined interests of the state of India or Pakistan exclusive of all other factors. We are not talking about how Indian/Pakistani “national” interests, in the long term, are interwoven... or how (eventually) the immoral/unethical behavior of their respective “states” will adversely affect the population of subcontinent or humanity. What I am arguing is that according to this sick “in the national interest” logic [which has been used in the past to shoot down my calls to work towards peace and prosperity in subcontinent, and to support the Palestinians in their struggle], GOP is justified in distorting/unsignifying the pre-Islamic history. Why? because the ‘state’ of Pakistan perceives this to be in the interest of the “nation.” According to this logic, concerns of Individuals on moral/ethical grouds do not matter...state can not be guided by individual morality.

What I am saying here (to some of the critics of the Pakistani official version of history) is to cut the crap and be fuc#ing consistent in what they BS about.

Re concerned #: 924

[i believe that delhi, apart from the dtc (delhi transport corp), has a bus-load of private indian companies running bus-services there. however, the standard of `services` offered by all leaves much to be desired. perhaps the `craze for phoren` could be justified here, if it leads to some healthier competition between the `phoren` and the `desi`.]

Are the roads in Delhi capable of handling an additional 3000 buses? Should someone be looking at some sort of light rail or some similar form of transport?

Can an Indian company run a good bus system? Sure; the TVS organization used to run inter-city and city buses in several cities in the South. You could set your watch by their buses and their freight system`s lorries. The buses were washed every night so that they would be clean. On the other hand, getting a Sardarji to clean his pyjama and kurta is impossible (look at all the private buses in Calcutta with Sardarji drivers), so there is no hope for the Delhi buses unless the Japanese also import bus drivers and conductors from Japan.

Nos. 925 and 928

My dear Zeemax:

It is not Mr. but Mrs., just to set things straight; currently between husbands.

My post was an invitation to a programmatic approach. Not at all about something to get hot under the collar. You are a reasonable man and one of the minority of two or three in this whole discussion to which I have made a reference. I really expected a more thoughtful and considered response from you or others in this exchange.

Perhaps you would tell me what is wrong with my proposal, drill holes in it if it deserves, demolish it, if you like, with arguments. But to be summarily dismissive with ``XXX`` and a recommendation to ``visit-the-Playboy-site`` is neither suits your style, nor in line with your method that I have noticed in all of this very large body of correspondence by pained Pakistanis.

It occurs to me that my ``entery`` into an established group and the style of address as ``you`` may have been the reason for your curt response but that`s how I felt. It was not an ``attack`` but the ``primeaval scream``; for help, release of tension and worry. In effect, also, to express disappointment, frustration and helplessnes in dealing with Pakistan of my dreams - and of yours - and the cavernous blackness which is the reality: the Pakistan of today.

I thought that the question of Constitution, elections, the people, (why only 17 percent of the eligible constituents voted) etc., would receive major attention. E.g., are they the ``Contented`` minority (Ref. John Kenneth Galbraith, `The Culture of Contentment`) which votes to safeguard the conditions of its contentment? The whole populace knowing [how to do] the job of the Prime Minister, but not their own. Or, ideas, systematically presented, considered, and analysed, about the proportional type of democracy and governance. Any proposed amendments in the Constitution? The reason, and the consequences, of an unwieldy number of political parties. Anybody, and his uncle, who has access to a bit of bunting making a ``flag`` of it and launches a political party. Why? The relevance of the size of the land. Why the question of establishing a park of few acres becomes elevated to a national issue, dragging in the Prime Minister`s person and the municipal organization/s(Cowasjee, Saturday Dec. 18,e-Dawn)! I don`t mean that only the ``trancendental`` issues should be, or should have been, discussed. No, take the example of renaming of Lyallpur. Very relevant, very to-the-point. Desirable.



Not that you or Sameer did not deal with the Constitution or a political Agenda. But the responses to them, again, relegated it them to a piddling series of ``ifs``, ``buts`` of scatterbrain, piecemeal nature. A joker or two, a clown or ten, always jumped in, in response to programmatic suggestions of that sort.

I found Rahat_Q, you, Agnostic, SameerJB, and DragonSlayer, refershing - to a degree. MOST of the others seem to be in it either to spoil it for fun (jokers, clowns), or just, perhaps, to see their name on the net. [``Published`` authors?].

I never, for a second, would doubt anybody`s patriotism; just the thinking and mode of behaviour/actions which their patriotism has brought the country to.

You didn`t like my letter? OK by me. But it is sad that my letter should be considered worthy of the `dust bin` treatment.

I chose my username with the utmost consideration. Notice the extra ``x``!

Wassalam

Ref Mr. XXX # 925

Here´s a nice site for you to visit rather than burning your internet hours on Chowk :

http: www.playboy.com

Rgfds

I had replied to Temporal on his specific question as to how the defense budget could be rationalised. I reproduce the reply here and invite comments.

Ref Temporal # 66 (Hegemony .. board)

[No War Pact ..Won`t fly. Idea has been floated in the past and been rejected by one or the other.]

Temporal, If something hasn´t worked in the past, it better work now because we have no other option but to look towards the future and future alone.

As for cutting defense expenditure, since it is a thorny issue, there is an alternative means in making the defense establishment self-sufficient instead of providing for it from federal revenue. The People´s Liberation Army of China generates a major part of it´s budget from industrial enterprises run by it all over China. The Pakistani military establishment can do the same with their management expertise, already displayed in their successful army welfare trust industrial enterprises in banks, fertilizers, cement, even cereal; amongst others. That would contribute to the nation´s GDP and provide employment. The funding/capital investment of this industrial enterprise would come from privatising military cantonment land for re-development, in major cities. This is a logical step not only from the point of view of the civilians but also that of the army. The concept of military cantonments is that these should be located away from centres of civilian population for two reasons : One, that the Military culture/way of life/objectives are quite different from that of civilians and the two should not intermingle for maintaining the motivation and personal integrity and direction of the armed forces personnel. This is why many civilian social centres like bars/discos etc. are declared out of bounds for military officers. Secondly, in case of war, civilian populations are unnecessarily put at risk by enemy aerial attacks on military barracks and other installations.

The army cantonments when originally established by the British were accordingly a suitable distance away from cities & towns. By growth of cities since then due to urbanisation trends, these same cantoments have ended up being right in the middle of major cities like Lahore, Peshawar, Rawalpindi, Multan, Bahawalpur, Jhelum, Nowshera etc. These are extremely valuable properties located in the poshest and most prestigious residential districts of above cities.

Privatising the above lands for redevelopment into shopping malls, residential apartment/bungalow complexes, office high-rise blocks and entertainment facilities would not only fetch at-least a trillion Rupees ( maybe 2 trillion) but also kickstart the construction materials and cement industries. Massive employment would be created without any further debt burden. The military installations could be re-located again away from city centres on existing government land lying waste & unutilised.

Above is the simplest and the most non-abrasive solution to the present economic quagmire. But will the military co-operate in a positive manner and put their money where their mouth is ? If they´re half the patriots they claim to be, I´m sure they´ll give it a serious thought.

krashid # 923

[Posts by Zeemax are very pseudo intellectual.]

Huh ?? How is it so ?

Assad_K # 921

Dear Assad_K,

Will even the soundest of arguments/verifiable facts not convince you to merely look deeper into the current conflict impartially than you´re doing at the moment ? Instead of reacting in the manner of `` I know .. I just know.. `` You have displayed this attitude of complete bias in belittling Shahbaz Sharif´s work in the Punjab.

However I wil not give up on you ! You have an extremely inteligent mind and a great sense of humour. Only if you could be a bit un-biased, like perhaps Mr. bahmad.

Thanks & Rgds.

What is the problem with the Pakistani intelligensia? I have been reading this long series of letters and they are piddling --all over, that is. One day it is one thing, NS, the next day, it is the foreign debt, another writer, the same day, talks about Zardari and BB, still anothr writer comes up with the history of Pakistan with the|ber`terf/ed|Jernail thown in for good measure. And on and on and on. And this is the intelligentia! Haven`t even succeeded so far to define, conceptualize,, or visualize the problem. No focus, no focal point.

And you feel you understand the problems and can solve them? All of you, individually, make sense - lots of it - in analysing a miniscule part of the total problem, (misfortune), but no one has yet come up with an advice for running the country.

Close your eyes. Assume that you have been appointed a ``put-it-back-on-its-tracks, sustainably developing Pakistan, with the security of the land, and welfare of its citizenry in freedom and health`` advisor by God, Al-lah, IMF, W.B., or whomever. Now write, say something or keep quiet.

I know you can meet the challange most eminently. You have the brains, you have the experience and you have the ability to do it. Each one of you can come up with two or three alternative scenarios of `solutions. And combined together you can agree on one or two of them since there will be an amazing overlap of your individual scenarios and together you will come up with pretty much the same scenarios. There maybe a thousand political aasins but, this is not a political Kama Sutra. Only one or two aasins would work as practical in our society.

Get real. Get serious. And show your mettle. Otherwise you are all a sorry lot, a sorry excuse for thinking, rational individuals. In that case you don`t deserve to be heard - or read!

pu li:

`The most pathetic news is that the government in India is asking foreign companies to run bus services in New Delhi to cope with the transporatation load! One would think that this would be the opportunity for private Indian companies to get into the market but the craze for `phoren` is so much that we will in all likelihood have some Japanese company importing Japanese-made buses and running the services.`

i believe that delhi, apart from the dtc (delhi transport corp), has a bus-load of private indian companies running bus-services there. however, the standard of `services` offered by all leaves much to be desired. perhaps the `craze for phoren` could be justified here, if it leads to some healthier competition between the `phoren` and the `desi`.

`whereas PIA and AI (variously called Please Inform Allah and Allah Informed!)`

good one. hadn`t heard of that before.