He had no Choice!

CJ re: 903

*chuckle *

Dear Sameer:

Your joke about God, donkey, dog, monkey, and man is great. It made me laugh. Thank you.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

GNOSTICS

Since chowk is not being updated. I thought about you once writing, ``aaql ghis jati hai sadmat ke sehte sehte``. Here is a joke which a you might enjoy. I am still trying to prolong my rational years.

GOD created the DONKEY and told him ``You will work tirelessly from dawn to dusk, you will not have any intelligence but will live for 50 years.

You will be a DONKEY!!!!``

The DONKEY replied ``Living for 50 yrs is too much, give me only 20 yrs``. And GOD gave him 20 yrs.

God created DOG and told him ``You will look after man`s house, you will be his best friend, you will eat whatever he gives you and live for 25 yrs. You will be a DOG!!!!``

The DOG answered ``GOD, living for 25 yrs is too much, give me only 10 yrs``. And GOD gave him 10 yrs.

GOD created MONKEY and told him ``You will jump from branch to branch and you will do silly things, You will be amusing and will live for 20 yrs. You will be a MONKEY!!!!``

The MONKEY replied ``GOD, living twenty years is too much, give me only 10 yrs.`` And GOD agreed..

Finally GOD created MAN and said ``You will be a MAN, the only rational being on this earth. You will use your intelligence to control other animals and dominate the world. You will

live for 20 yrs``.

Man answered ``GOD, I will be a MAN, but living for 20 yrs is not enough.

Why don`t you give me the 30 yrs that the

DONKEY refused, the 15 years that the DOG didn`t want and the 10 yrs that the MONKEY refused?``

That was what GOD did and since then, YOU live for 20 yrs like a MAN, then get married, and spend the next 30 yrs like a DONKEY, working and carrying the load on your back. Then when your children leave you, you spend 15 years like a DOG looking after the house and eating whatever is given to you, then you get old, retire and spend the next 10 years as a MONKEY, jumping from house to house or children to children, doing silly things to amuse your Grand-children!!!!

Please no comments about this part of the post. Let us stick to serious matters!!!

I gather, there may not be a charge sheet even on monday in the hijacking case. It has already made govt. case very suspicious. I feel that the govt. may back out completely because they fear that it might reveal the ``state secrets``. What else is new!! Already there are some demonstrations against the rulers in Sindh and Baluchistan. Gasoline prices have gone up and electricity, wheat and flour prices to go up next. The earlier euphoria among some circles is giving way to dissatisfaction particularly after the most boring speech of the last 40 years, in addition to the failure of recovering stuck-up loans. It can be safely assumed, based on the first two months of performance, that the accountability process, ending corruption and devolution of power will just be a farce.

Despite all the mistakes of NS, his recent bold statements are making him popular again, at least in his home province. This will lead to greater insecure feelings for the rulers and they might resort to something very stupid. So ``Pallu Bhai`` aka Syed Pervez Musharraf Dehlvi, please consider a peaceful exit.

krashid#867,879 and Gnostic #862,879

I just thought that I should bring posts # 29 and 31 on the Ghazali (Hegemony... .) Board, to your attention.

I wrote a very long post to you tonight which was, of course, meant for all friends on this Board, but I was very pained to see it disappear in front of my eyes! Six hours` work gone just like that.

Perhaps, one of these days I may muster enough courage to redo it.

Till we meet next, I wish you the best and good thoughts.

Sincerely,

Gnostic

Assad_K

``pedant``!

In the science of ethnomethodology, I am told, this strategy is called, `rituals of degredation`, i.e., to make a good thing look or sound bad. And you grasped that idea? I can`t imagine that it occured to you as a primary idea, as the ones that occured to the cave-men.

It`s just that commonsensically accepted rules of expression somehow didn`t get followed. Minor thing, I assure. Assumptions, in serious matters may be rather left alone. (vorbotten!)

I am glad that you are clear about the `mutt` part. An assumption, again, made mischief.

Please read para four of my post -- ``I am ... aware of designation, thusly, of Pakistani Journalism... .`` -- you would notice that I //had// read the ``yellow journalism`` post(s) and agreed most singularly with the designation with the qualifier, supplied.

I feel that understanding (from Para four) that I am in the know of that material, would have saved you the ksht of belaboring a point, an example, easily, of which, it makes your own post. As a matter of courtesy, would you be good enough to let me know what did you take that para to mean?

I do not feel that you ``[D]isregard[ed] [it] for your own amusement``. Just for Justice baiting!

Perhaps.

Yes, you do lack all what you say. I agree with you. But mukammal zat to Allah hi ki hai na. Hum sub main appni appni shortcomings hain.

I am in the issues with both feet. Can`t say about you, though, whether you are a step away or a light year.

Enjoy. Ciao

Assad_K # 842,850,877; C.J. #844,876

Musharraf`s Speech: Rhetoric and Reality?

In his recent speech Musharraf said: ``About sixty days ago I had identified areas of critical importance adversely affecting the very foundation of Pakistan. Three of the most vital areas were the dismal state of the economy bordering on bankruptcy, inter-provincial disharmony striking at the roots of national integration and poor governance. Or, rather, mere absence of governance.``

I did a word search/count of his speech published in the New International (December 16, 1999). Here are the results (the number of times a particular word appeared in the text):

Democracy (0)

Grassroots (0)

Protest (0)

Politics (0)

Political (0) Autonomy (0)

Freedom (0)

Liberty (0)

Peace(ful) (1)

(Dis)harmony (1)

Just(ice) (2) Fairness (0)

Equality (0)

Rights (0)

Property Rights (1) Decentralization (0)

Devolution (0)

Local (0)

District (0) Regional (0)

Province/Provincial (11) Nation(al) (19)

Rural (2)

Urban (2)

Economy (10) Economic (12)

Economical(ly) (0) Economist (0)

Education (1)

Health (1)

Welfare (2) Defence Spending (1)

India (0)

Islam(ic) (1)

Muslim (0)

Arab (0)

Tax(es) (41) Governance (6)

Foreign Policy (0)

Foreign Investment (3)

Based on these results you may draw you own conclusions, share them with other Chowkwallas (and perhaps General Musharraf).

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

SameerJB re: 893

You are, of course, right in that PM would be in a bind (to say the least) were there to be an action against him. A coup against Musharraf at the moment would not succeed, however. He`s still got the tide of popular sentiment with him. Had NS not alienated the army and appointed an officer who obviously had neither any respect from the rest of the army nor had a corps under his immediate command as COAS, things could well have worked out differently.

I wonder, too, how many extremist forces are left in the Army after it was purged following the near-coup several years back. So if the extremists did rise up in arms (do they know any other way?) then would they be mown down by the army? That would put me in a bind about whether to condemn it or cheer..

Seeing as how Ziauddin was head of the ISI - which I believe is far more associated with Islamic extremism than the army - his positioning as COAS would make one question future liberalism. Plus, if Musharraf is seen as being vehemently anti-India, how much less hawkish would be a man whose job was covert ops, with all the skullduggery and outright evil that entails, be?

If (and as long as) the people feel that Musharraf is sincere in his efforts, they won`t suport a move against him. People felt that NS was making hay while they starved.. ostentatious gestures like his US shopping trip after the Washington accord didn`t help! Which does not count the usual bunch of sycophants who would praise anyone who came to power, of course.

NS` strong desire for peace depends, of course, on whether you believe that he was on board for Kargil, or was it slipped by him altogether. Seeing as how I believe the former, you`ll understand if I take his role as `peacemaker` with a pinch of salt (`Hindustan ki qasam` notwithstanding!). Mind you, seeing as how the first thing Vajpayee did as soon as he got back to India was shout that `Damned if we`ll ever discuss Kashmir` (figuratively, Supreme_Justice.. not trying to spread disinformation!) I find his being touted as the great peacemaker similarly wry.

HE HAS ONE OPTION

The absence of any significant initiative in the economic policy prescriptions by the CE is indicative of his predicament, between devil and the deep sea. CE made the mistake of announcing that he is temporary and democracy will be restored which begs the question, when. The present socio political climate and the bomb has made Pakistan a topic of interest, but not a country of significance like Russia. Debt write off will not come with out significant policy change. No new monies have been pledged by any, self reliance has become the key.

As a temporary, no one is interested, all are waiting for the long term. Any decisions by the one who calls himself temporary may not be honoured by the next and could affect sovereign agreements. The same could be true for domestic perceptions.

The only option for the CE is to declare that he is permanent, carry out referendum as a ceremonial act and move on. A time frame for the restoration of democracy is not an option, no one has let go of a crocodile caught by the tail and survived to tell the story.

To sameer JB,

Yes I did nod my head. Hope your dreams come true, not the nightmares.

Regards

Jay.

Assad-k 856,874, S.J. 873

1. I don`t know what the Prime Minister has been in the past, how bad, incompetent, or rotten. But he had not gone through this experience. Such experiences bring humility and the awareness of powerlessness to the `bully`. I suppose you are familiar with the proverbial antidote of bullies. 2. I feel, even though it may have been a highly improbable scenario, SameerJB gave us a peek into the working of human mind. His own yearning for normalcy and return to democracy comes through clearly and, I feel, honestly. I felt he was being a beacon of light and hope and had, at least, attempted to inject a bit of optimism, all the while letting us know what he thought the satisfactory solution could/might be. You and I could agree or disagree.

3. In putting that view forward he was an iconoclast in so far as he talked about the return to democracy, and not NECESSARILy (about the) individuals. He caught the bull by the horns, as we say.

4. {I don`t see any remorse or contrition on your part. At the very least an apology was due all the readers to whom you fed untruths (lies), put words in the mouth of SameerJB, and attempted to mislead us. In your recent post you dismiss that `dis-information as, ``Heavy Mendate or otherwise.``}

5. Don`t for ever be a nuisance. I like neither ber`terfed Mutt-Mush, nor the fellow with basically a lohar mentality.[+] I am afraid I do not know what gave you the idea to attribute these sentiments to me. I hate, with the most unspeakable intensity of disdain, and loath, the Mutt. I don`t know the man nor his origin(s). I have never commited a genetic fallacy; nor origins of anybody, ethnically speaking, are of any concern to me. But he has destroyed for the institutions of Pakistan an overarching saaiya of the nascent democracy. Not even in the worst days of Banana republics a `nobody` just up and grabbed a country. The elected Prime Minister should have been defeated either inside or out of the House and not abducted, as he has been. We really needed, did we(?) to be reminded by Mannyd (#865) that the maa`zooled mutt should have defeated the `corrupt` one (we have yet to establish that in a proper court of law!) in fair and square elections.

6. We are not going to see complete `self-rule` in our own life-times. The armed forces, as a bargaining chip, shall insinuate themselves permanently in the governmet and thus will always be blackmailing the citizenry. You like it? Fine. I don`t.

7. In the post(s) under review I do not detect a comparison of `he`, nor of BB; nor did I refer to them. I am used to parsimony of words and arguments. I neither bring in, nor consider it a laudable act on anybody`s part to bring in extraneous variables. So, please... .

I think you would agree with me that this aaien baien shaien type of glaaddr`pan is the bane of our society. It tangentializes our discussion, or attention, away from the focus, the central point.

8. ``If [you] were to post a vision of Pakistan... .``]. Good. Let`s see that. At least we would have something to discuss about. 9. I invented the strategem of fishaar so please spare me. What Zeemax and Roohi will say, you shall know. Don`t create the gunjalk for me. Let`s stick to what we are talking about. You want fishaar, go , by all means, to Mian & Nayyar Board. Fifty people will pull you in fifty different directions. Aapki leeran leeran kr deingay. Mera Mutlab hai aapkay topic ki. As I say, I invented it, in the conduct of Committee meetings. Spare me, to repeat my request.

10. I hope we are all adults. I never make assumptions unless they are predicated on facts.

I was raised in a positivistic intellectual environment. That is my strength, and, weakness.

I will believe it when I see it. I won`t talk about the chronological and mental ages which the testers of intelligence deal with. But you agree with me, do you not, that there is a difference between blooghat and baal`agh nazrii. Right?

11. There is, again, a difference between an opinion and the description of events, however hypothetical.

I have not expressed an opinion; I have stated a condition. You don`t //have// to agree with, or accept, an opinion. You do please exercise that prerogative if I express an opinion. Just don`t equate the dis-information with descriptive statement of a situation.

12.`You` is a collective you. Not pointed-at you; incidentally, `ilk` has a Scottish root and means, each, or, every.

Just told you I am of the positive school. I wouldn`t doubt anybody`s patriotism. You may have noticed that I never said anything of this nature about uus naam na lainey jogey ka. Besides, there are now so many types of `patriotisms` that everybody fits into one or the other mould.

No, I didn`t mean you personally, even if it pricks your ego. You, or I, alone, are not that big!

What I meant was, the lack of seriousness, lack of offering a positive analysis and contribution; and saying things carelessly. Just Baatain; and injurious to boot.

These things permeate so many spheres of our life that they ooze out in ethnic terrain, and while we are engaged in what I am saying here and above in #7, the looters -- whichever they are -- will loot.

13. My favourite politico was Ed Broadbent, Leader of the New Democratic Party of Canada. He was, later, Canada`s ambassador to the United Nations. I woder what happened of/to him. May be Roohi can let me know. I thought he was `cool`. A person of integrity, political acumen and honest to a fault. Brainy as if there was no tomorrow!

Did you mean Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif? No. Not that lackey of Izaulhaq? Half literate.

But even if he were my worst enemy, I would still stand by him against any army fellow whose rations I buy. Do you know pit bulls? We keep them to safeguard us in return for the milk, bread and the Purina chow given them. Army is supposed to guard us, the nation. Not as a pit bull, to corner us in our own house and make us into leeran, leeran; or tallian, if you happen to be Amritsari or Lahori. I hope I have made my position clear. I know yours.

14. Assad_K, you already //know// my `positive contributions`, only you do not know them under this username.

15. Iqbal was not quoted. It was cited. The misra`a was used to illustrate the absurdity of your `response` which was based on your words and not that of Sameer. [++]

15. You seem to be confusing with (my) brother the Chief Justice re. your comment about mutt.[+++]

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

[+] I wrote off this fellow when I learned that under the pretext of meeting the foreign minister of Iran in Geneva, (Mr. Villayti never came), he, at the State`s expense, signed a quarter billion dollars` worth of scrap metal deal.

[++] I have a rather different opinion of Iqbal as compared to most Pakistanis. So, I will never `quote` him to qualify my words as worthy of attention. You feel like doing so with Allama Sahib`s kalam? Go ahead, I don`t mind.

[+++]Are you on some medication? Have your blood pressure checked (low b.p. does that); and take your temperature. Keep a good check . Sehat kay muamley main kabhi ghflat na karain

Ref : mannyd # 887

Well .. I have already been branded a coward by someone here though not an Indian agent yet as far as I know. Question is does it take more courage to die than to live ? I would say the latter.

In my not so trivial an experience, I have found that intrinsically everyone`s the same; regardless of cast, creed, religion (or indeed lack of it) or coulour. The basic needs, wants and aspirations are identical. Everyone responds to the same stimulus. For example, the best friend I ever had is a Jew of Israeli origins so it`s a bit diffficult for me to believe the Jews on the whole are any Muslim`s born enemies.

I have been to India twice, to Delhi and Calcutta and have great friends there. I don`t have a problem with co-existing with Hindus or Sikhs or Christians or even the atheist Chinese !

What needs to be acknowledged is that the dawn of the new millenium is not an ordinary event. In my view it`s the dawn of the Communication Era. Just as the Industrial Era of 20th Century was driven by the invention of the internal combustion engine, the 21st Century Communication Era will be driven by the Internet. The world is already very small because of it and will become even smaller. Cultures and national identities will merge. Time Zones and International borders will cease to be a hurdle in trade and commerce. New demands will be made on individual nations to keep pace or be isolated. Even now kids don`t need to travel or live abroad to learn about and make friends with people of different cultures and lifestyles ; they can do it simply chatting on ICQ and mIRC. All these realities must be taken into account to see where the world is heading.

Yes. Our historical baggage is certainly not heavier than that of France`s in respect of Germany; or South Korea`s in respect of Japan for that matter.I don`t think the French and Koreans are cowards for looking ahead instead of living in the past.

It`s so funny I`m rolling on the floor laughing my behind off !

Although the entire speech was a great work of comedy, a few points were the funniest :

- Musharraf says he apologises for the previous govt`s great blunder of freezing the forex accounts and has taken the concrete step of advising the Law Ministry that it doesn`t happen again. I actually thought in my silliness that he was going to un-freeze them .. Hahaha. Advising is easier .. LOL

- He wants people to whiten their black money by paying a fantastically low tax of only 10 % when any parchoon walla knows you can whiten any amount of undeclared cash by buying Dollar Bond Encashment Certificates for .. wait for it .. 3 %.

- How come despite the economy being ``rock bottom`` and ``worse than imagined`` he didn`t impose agricultural tax ? Rather left it to provincial Govts. to figure it out sometime next year .. ? Haha .. So the military`s Danda doesn`t work on feudals ! LOL

- Highest and # 1 priority ``Small and Medium Enterprises`` ? Wow .. someone`s been copying the blueprint of Small and Medium Enterprises Development Authority (SMEDA) of the evil previous government. Cheaters ... I thought the previous govt was a real baddy .. how come they want to follow them?

The whole economic plan is a non-specific hog wash of `` to be expedited``, ``to be encouraged``, `` to be advised``, to be promoted`` sprinkled with populist peanuts for playing to the gallery; building castles upon castles in the air. Expenditures flowing from imaginary revenues. Is this the ``New Beginning`` ? How come the existing budget was not trashed like the constitution ...Is it because these dummies can write Provisional Constitution Orders and not budgets ?

Rolling on the floor splitting my sides .. ggggg

My previous message was in reply to ASSAD_K # 891

In reply to Pu Li # 890

Dear Pu Li:

Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan was from Lahore. Lahore became the center of North Indian arts and culture during British Raj and several notables of the recent past were either from Lahore or moved there because of cultural life of the city. It will be very difficult for me to make a list of luminaries of the arts and culture with Lahore connection, e.g.,Surraiya and Shamshad Begum, Krishan Chandra, Krishan Singh Bedi and even M. Rafi started his career from Lahore.

Our Ustad was very much a Lahori and worked on Kothas of Heera Mandi as musician before learning classical music and making a name for himself. He was not well respected only because of his earlier Kotha connection which disheartened him a lot and the resulting lack of work forced him to migrate to India. His brother Ustad Barkat Ali Khan was also very famous classical musician in Pakistan and present day Ghazal singer Ghulam Ali was one of his students. Even his name Ghulam Ali is out of respect for Bade Ghulam Ali Khan.

For more information you may look for RMIM Article Archive at www.user.cs.umn.edu/

As you said Mr. Gnostics I have to have my ammunition ready. Which I don`t have.

It is a fact that whole nation was behind Kargil vs India as Jay pointed out.

It signifies that while our ruling elite were busy ammassing their wealth and securing their future + intelligentia, common man has struggled to the point that they instictively know what to do or what is right. Whoever has said said rightly, people are never wrong.

The speech by General Musharraf today on T.V reflects at least his perception of what are the aspirations of people.

Compare this to Benazir, who always says PAKISTAN STILL NEEDS ME. Or NS who with full authority took steps against Jang and other institutions, in gross disregard to people`s aspirations apart from his other unholy acts.

The most important point General stressed is self-reliance and economic activity. What he does only time will show. But it only signifies the perception of even a non political person & shallowness of our leaders. Or the joke that head of NS is resonant to percussion. i.e nothing in it.

Democracy was raped in 1977 by All.

Since 1985 we have only exercise in democracy, where under American pressure people are voting to elect self imposed leaders.

If economy is any indicator, then our neo-colonial and neo-slave economy can only produce such leaders, where it is the most easy way to national exchequer. And democratic exercise is a struggle between ruling elite to share in this. As far as common man is concerned, he has no interest whether Faisal Saleh has hold of exchequer or Saif-ur-Rahman is looting.

As I stated no democracy. No isms. Only clear and concrete thinking regarding what should be our goals and how to achieve this.

As Deng said It does not matter whether cat is black or white as long as it catches the mice.

I agree 100% with you statement ``(one of my recurring nightmares, of course, is that things have reached the point where what the average Pakistani really wants is death to Israel, India and the US, and that it`s you and I who are the fringe! Do I hear Jay nodding his head?)`` and this has bothered me a lot too. My point is that if tomorrow another General takes over from PM and starts calling himself CEO or something and making Nelson Mandela or Lee Kwan Yew his hero, I wonder how many of PM supporters will immediately start supporting the new Gen. XYZ. Moreover, Supreme Court will throw out any petition from PM supporter for restoration of his government, probably in less than a day because any removal of extra-constitutional setup could not be termed more illegal than the previous one. I hope you got my point. If PM`s support faulters for any of the reasons, it could safely be assumed that ``the army of God will be waiting in the wings``, and this scares me even more. Thus my support for NS is definitely not for his flirtation with religious right and Shariaat Bill etc. My point here will be that any future Pakistani Government willing to improve bilateral relationship with India have to be less religious and in any future revival of NS, because of his strong desire for improvement of relationships with India ( even for the sake of sugar trade), he has to be somewhat secular nationalist and has to get rid of Zia leftovers.

Sameer JB re: 880

I agree, both yours and Zeemax` manifestos reflect what the reasonable Pakistani wants from his life and his country (one of my recurring nightmares, of course, is that things have reached the point where what the average Pakistani really wants is death to Israel, India and the US, and that it`s you and I who are the fringe! Do I hear Jay nodding his head?). Where I disagree is that Nawaz Sharif has the will or the inclination towards moving any or all of those thi ngs, which is why putting it as NS` potential manifesto got all my cynicism systems engaged. I doubt you`d give any credibility to a manifesto by PM, after all! `course, it`s a funny old world, and who knows, y`all may prove to be right in your relative assessments of NS and PM! For now, though, I`ll stick to MY guns.