Press Room October 17, 1999
#129 Posted by MQ_Rahat on November 30, 1999 10:01:14 am
INTENTS ARE NOW CLEARER
After 48 days of illegimate takeover of power in Pakistan by the armed forces, each day makes the intents of the so called fair deal military rulers, more and more obvious. Jernaile Mussrraf and his touts couldn`t find a single corruption case against Nawaz Sharif, the legal Prime Minister of Pakistan. But to get rid of him, the jernailes instructed their employee, a colonel to lodge a report (FIR) for flight 805 hijack. What are you trying to prove jernaile ji? Well, this is his style of accountability, of course inspired by Zia-ul-Haq, jernaile Musharraf is inclined towards elimination of Mr. Sharif for good. ``Hang him`` said the drunk jernaile after his routine Friday night booze. Musharraf may be feeling very secure after having sent all his family members to USA, including his only son, Bilal. But those who are unjust and unfair to their own country and people, shall be doomed anyway, no matter where they are. Jernaile Ji, you have acted against the constitution of Pakistan, who gave you that right? You are artificially popular in the intelligence agenicies books through phony gallop polls conducted by newspapers under your control, in real life you are a villian. You belong to the same lot that killed our first prime minister, RLA khan; hanged the second prime minister ZA Bhutto; got the third prime minister convicted; and are now aiming at hanging the legal prime minister, democratically authorised ruler of Pkaistan, Mian Nawaz Sharif. Our all these years, army has shown no respect for the people`s representative. The pakistan army generals somehow still beleive themselves to be superior, still living in a fools paradise, a part of ruling British army that conspired with the fuedals and treated my people like animals. But we are sure, that this time we will make the difference, and we shall see the jernailes hung by their necks. The world shall see you and your team end in hell. Insallah.
Bye bye Jernaile Ji
Rahat
After 48 days of illegimate takeover of power in Pakistan by the armed forces, each day makes the intents of the so called fair deal military rulers, more and more obvious. Jernaile Mussrraf and his touts couldn`t find a single corruption case against Nawaz Sharif, the legal Prime Minister of Pakistan. But to get rid of him, the jernailes instructed their employee, a colonel to lodge a report (FIR) for flight 805 hijack. What are you trying to prove jernaile ji? Well, this is his style of accountability, of course inspired by Zia-ul-Haq, jernaile Musharraf is inclined towards elimination of Mr. Sharif for good. ``Hang him`` said the drunk jernaile after his routine Friday night booze. Musharraf may be feeling very secure after having sent all his family members to USA, including his only son, Bilal. But those who are unjust and unfair to their own country and people, shall be doomed anyway, no matter where they are. Jernaile Ji, you have acted against the constitution of Pakistan, who gave you that right? You are artificially popular in the intelligence agenicies books through phony gallop polls conducted by newspapers under your control, in real life you are a villian. You belong to the same lot that killed our first prime minister, RLA khan; hanged the second prime minister ZA Bhutto; got the third prime minister convicted; and are now aiming at hanging the legal prime minister, democratically authorised ruler of Pkaistan, Mian Nawaz Sharif. Our all these years, army has shown no respect for the people`s representative. The pakistan army generals somehow still beleive themselves to be superior, still living in a fools paradise, a part of ruling British army that conspired with the fuedals and treated my people like animals. But we are sure, that this time we will make the difference, and we shall see the jernailes hung by their necks. The world shall see you and your team end in hell. Insallah.
Bye bye Jernaile Ji
Rahat
#127 Posted by iahmed on November 13, 1999 12:11:51 am
Martial law is the worst thing that can happen to a country. Martial law administrator cannot expect people to follow the law since he himself has broken the constitution. We hav`nt experienced democracy because of our long association with military or quasi-military rule. Thats way all democratic governments we experienced have been dictatorial in nature. Democracy takes a lot of time and patience to florish. The journey for a perfect democratic system is painfull but in the end very effective. The
western countries has gone through the worse since they believed in the system and now they are
enjoying the fruits of democracy. On the other hand our people have been repeatedly fooled by our
military for the last 52 years. You can fool a nation once or twice but not for ever. But our nation is so
marvellous that it has been fooled for 52 years and still has`nt learnt from its mistake. So instead of
blaming the politicians for not knowing the spelling of democracy, we should look at ourself and ask ,
are we really literate? After 52 years we don`t even know our destiny. Are we really a failed nation?
It is the army who has failed us and those ignorant masses who celebrate whenever a democratic elected
government is uncounstitutionally removed. Army has a habit of counqering our nation every 10-20 year.
It destroys all democractic norms that flourished in its absence. The Indophobia we inherited since our
creation is also the reason behind this mess. Only people has to decide the fate of out nation. No
mard-e-momin of khlifa would help. The reason for all this mess in Pakistan is because peoples opinion
has been voilated every now and then by military and its pawns. For a country entering 21st century,
having a system even looked downed upon by ancient Greeks is a shame. Shame on Pakistan nation!
western countries has gone through the worse since they believed in the system and now they are
enjoying the fruits of democracy. On the other hand our people have been repeatedly fooled by our
military for the last 52 years. You can fool a nation once or twice but not for ever. But our nation is so
marvellous that it has been fooled for 52 years and still has`nt learnt from its mistake. So instead of
blaming the politicians for not knowing the spelling of democracy, we should look at ourself and ask ,
are we really literate? After 52 years we don`t even know our destiny. Are we really a failed nation?
It is the army who has failed us and those ignorant masses who celebrate whenever a democratic elected
government is uncounstitutionally removed. Army has a habit of counqering our nation every 10-20 year.
It destroys all democractic norms that flourished in its absence. The Indophobia we inherited since our
creation is also the reason behind this mess. Only people has to decide the fate of out nation. No
mard-e-momin of khlifa would help. The reason for all this mess in Pakistan is because peoples opinion
has been voilated every now and then by military and its pawns. For a country entering 21st century,
having a system even looked downed upon by ancient Greeks is a shame. Shame on Pakistan nation!
#126 Posted by SameerJB on November 12, 1999 10:43:04 am
Dear Bilal Ahmad:
Thank you very much for your last message. Obviously I am not as well read as you are about the history of Pakistan. I learn something new from your every message although my opinions are more closer to Nashat( Raja Amir Janjua ).
I agree with you that in 1946 elections, unionist lost their appeal because Pakistan was almost a reality. It was convenient for them to go with ML.
I am still waiting for your theory as to what transpired the coup im Pakistan.
This article and replies will be moving to chowk archives but I hope to keep interacting with you on other reply sites.
Thank you very much for your last message. Obviously I am not as well read as you are about the history of Pakistan. I learn something new from your every message although my opinions are more closer to Nashat( Raja Amir Janjua ).
I agree with you that in 1946 elections, unionist lost their appeal because Pakistan was almost a reality. It was convenient for them to go with ML.
I am still waiting for your theory as to what transpired the coup im Pakistan.
This article and replies will be moving to chowk archives but I hope to keep interacting with you on other reply sites.
#125 Posted by bahmad on November 11, 1999 5:59:37 pm
In response to SameerJB (Reply # 124):
Dear Sameer:
Your statement: ``The Punjabis who voted for Unionist in 1937 election were voting their locally powerful feudal as well as non-feudal leaders and these local leaders together constituted the Unionist party.``
Comment: Your posts have encouraged me to refresh my memory about the electoral politics in Punjab. In the 1937 provincial elections in Punjab, the Muslim League won only 1 out of 86 Muslim seats, whereas the Unionists won not only the majority of the seats in the provincial assembly (96 out of 175) but also the bulk of the Muslim seats. Khalid B. Sayeed (1980) argues that this was a result of the triumvirate (the deputy commissioner, the landlord, and the pir) that supported the Unionists.
Your statement: ``The vote for Unionist party had nothing to do with supporting or opposing the freedom movement.``
Comment: Soon after the 1937 election Jinnah and Sir Sikandar Hyat reached a pact. Khalid Bin Sayeed writes: `` . . . A pact with such pro-British conservative elements was distasteful to the Muslim League leader and poet Iqbal, for in his view it would undermine the prestige of the Muslim League along the Muslim masses. Jinnah was neither an ardent Islamic reformist nor a revolutionary but a hardheaded politician. Therefore he urged leaders like Iqbal to be patient and cooperate with him`` (p. 10). Sayeed further adds: ``A more important factor was the concern of the Unionists to align themselves with a party that was by no means anti-British against the formidable and growing power of the Congress, which was successful in forming governments in seven out of the eleven Indian provinces in 1937`` (pp. 10-11).
Evidently, the Unionists were essentially landlords. They prioritized their own interests. They were pro-British. They were supported by the British administration. They were supported by the pir, who themselves were landlords particularly in the Muzaffargarh, Multan, Montgomery, and Jhang districts of west Punjab. Iqbal was contemptuous toward the claims of some of the sajjada nashins to be very religious and saintly because of their total loyaty to the British government. In short, when the Unionists leaders felt threatened they signed a pact with the Muslim League, but by 1946 they lost their appeal (as most of their support transferred to the Muslim League). Do we need to understand the ideological and material basis of this transfer?
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
P.S. Sayeed, K. B. (1980). Politics in Pakistan: The Nature and Direction of Change. New York: Praeger.
Dear Sameer:
Your statement: ``The Punjabis who voted for Unionist in 1937 election were voting their locally powerful feudal as well as non-feudal leaders and these local leaders together constituted the Unionist party.``
Comment: Your posts have encouraged me to refresh my memory about the electoral politics in Punjab. In the 1937 provincial elections in Punjab, the Muslim League won only 1 out of 86 Muslim seats, whereas the Unionists won not only the majority of the seats in the provincial assembly (96 out of 175) but also the bulk of the Muslim seats. Khalid B. Sayeed (1980) argues that this was a result of the triumvirate (the deputy commissioner, the landlord, and the pir) that supported the Unionists.
Your statement: ``The vote for Unionist party had nothing to do with supporting or opposing the freedom movement.``
Comment: Soon after the 1937 election Jinnah and Sir Sikandar Hyat reached a pact. Khalid Bin Sayeed writes: `` . . . A pact with such pro-British conservative elements was distasteful to the Muslim League leader and poet Iqbal, for in his view it would undermine the prestige of the Muslim League along the Muslim masses. Jinnah was neither an ardent Islamic reformist nor a revolutionary but a hardheaded politician. Therefore he urged leaders like Iqbal to be patient and cooperate with him`` (p. 10). Sayeed further adds: ``A more important factor was the concern of the Unionists to align themselves with a party that was by no means anti-British against the formidable and growing power of the Congress, which was successful in forming governments in seven out of the eleven Indian provinces in 1937`` (pp. 10-11).
Evidently, the Unionists were essentially landlords. They prioritized their own interests. They were pro-British. They were supported by the British administration. They were supported by the pir, who themselves were landlords particularly in the Muzaffargarh, Multan, Montgomery, and Jhang districts of west Punjab. Iqbal was contemptuous toward the claims of some of the sajjada nashins to be very religious and saintly because of their total loyaty to the British government. In short, when the Unionists leaders felt threatened they signed a pact with the Muslim League, but by 1946 they lost their appeal (as most of their support transferred to the Muslim League). Do we need to understand the ideological and material basis of this transfer?
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
P.S. Sayeed, K. B. (1980). Politics in Pakistan: The Nature and Direction of Change. New York: Praeger.
#124 Posted by tariqlodi on November 11, 1999 2:02:15 am
Sameer JB, 122.
It does not pay to differ or agree with history or history cares a hoot if somebody does or does not agree with it. History is there to take lessons- to correct the course and rectify the errors of the past. It is not a question of scoring or conceding any points. It hurts every body sensible and sensitive to the national issues. Unfortunately ours is a case where we learn the tables by heart, 2x2=4, but in our day to day dealings when we are to give it is 2x2=3 and when taking it is 2x2=5! Luckily the CHOWK has provided a forum where one can speak his mind out. I feel absence of such fora within the country and the gaged press has contributed much towards not resolving common issues.
Histories are written by different people, and they narate their experiences not necessarily shared by all. As for the problems among any ethnic groups, luckily there is none among the common people it has perhaps been miscontrued, it is the vested interest that manouvers, creates and exploits the situation. I have lived and worked in the Punjab and have best of my associates and friends from Punjab with whom I have been freely exchanging my views. In the manouvered troubled days a friend, a very scared one, from Pindi came to see me at Karachi. I took him to the Empress Market Pedestrian Bridge and asked him to identify the punjabis, sindis, pathans and muhajirs bustling in thousands down below and to see for himself who was killing who. All people live here in peace and all do realise that the situation had been created for certain ends.
In a discussion no body is 100% right and neither is wrong. The best course of action to my mind is that we should mark out the differences and try to resolve them. The boat with a hole in its bottom has greater chance of making to the shore for repairs if the rowers in unison rowed in one direction. That can only be achieved by agreement in making the wrong good.
The British have left long ago with their intersts and this is Pakistan I am sure they have not left a “SAHIFA” and every ablebodied Pakistani should be inducted on merit.
It is not a question of Biharis but of Pakistanis, how would one feel if those Pakistanis, Biharis, had been repatriated and not the 73ooo Pakistanis in Indian jails? We see in the press so many other nations caring for welfare of their natioals and their embassies going all out for their safety in foreign lands. A piece of cloth painted with some colours does not become a flag unless it provides shelter to everyone who comes under it.
It is strange that you do not want to give people freedom of choice. Why should any body accept an imposed political party? In fact in my view this, imposition of personnel and parties, has been one of the main reasons of turmoil in Pakistan. The muslim league in early days of Pakistan did not hold elections perhaps because they did not want to give the people right to choose. The reasons put forth then have all been proved wrong by time: Bangladesh held elections soon after gaining sovreignty, their economy was in shambles after the 1971debacle, Iran held elections during the war when their whole assembly had been bombarded!
In my previous despatch the first line should read: My dear since you lisp and stammer…….
Love,
tariqlodi.
It does not pay to differ or agree with history or history cares a hoot if somebody does or does not agree with it. History is there to take lessons- to correct the course and rectify the errors of the past. It is not a question of scoring or conceding any points. It hurts every body sensible and sensitive to the national issues. Unfortunately ours is a case where we learn the tables by heart, 2x2=4, but in our day to day dealings when we are to give it is 2x2=3 and when taking it is 2x2=5! Luckily the CHOWK has provided a forum where one can speak his mind out. I feel absence of such fora within the country and the gaged press has contributed much towards not resolving common issues.
Histories are written by different people, and they narate their experiences not necessarily shared by all. As for the problems among any ethnic groups, luckily there is none among the common people it has perhaps been miscontrued, it is the vested interest that manouvers, creates and exploits the situation. I have lived and worked in the Punjab and have best of my associates and friends from Punjab with whom I have been freely exchanging my views. In the manouvered troubled days a friend, a very scared one, from Pindi came to see me at Karachi. I took him to the Empress Market Pedestrian Bridge and asked him to identify the punjabis, sindis, pathans and muhajirs bustling in thousands down below and to see for himself who was killing who. All people live here in peace and all do realise that the situation had been created for certain ends.
In a discussion no body is 100% right and neither is wrong. The best course of action to my mind is that we should mark out the differences and try to resolve them. The boat with a hole in its bottom has greater chance of making to the shore for repairs if the rowers in unison rowed in one direction. That can only be achieved by agreement in making the wrong good.
The British have left long ago with their intersts and this is Pakistan I am sure they have not left a “SAHIFA” and every ablebodied Pakistani should be inducted on merit.
It is not a question of Biharis but of Pakistanis, how would one feel if those Pakistanis, Biharis, had been repatriated and not the 73ooo Pakistanis in Indian jails? We see in the press so many other nations caring for welfare of their natioals and their embassies going all out for their safety in foreign lands. A piece of cloth painted with some colours does not become a flag unless it provides shelter to everyone who comes under it.
It is strange that you do not want to give people freedom of choice. Why should any body accept an imposed political party? In fact in my view this, imposition of personnel and parties, has been one of the main reasons of turmoil in Pakistan. The muslim league in early days of Pakistan did not hold elections perhaps because they did not want to give the people right to choose. The reasons put forth then have all been proved wrong by time: Bangladesh held elections soon after gaining sovreignty, their economy was in shambles after the 1971debacle, Iran held elections during the war when their whole assembly had been bombarded!
In my previous despatch the first line should read: My dear since you lisp and stammer…….
Love,
tariqlodi.
#123 Posted by SameerJB on November 10, 1999 3:25:22 pm
Dear Bilal Ahmad
I intentionally used the term ‘study the history’ which according to Arnold Toynbee’s definition means the causes and effects of history instead of knowing or describing the history. It will be naive for me or any other person to think that most Punjabis were (or are) familiar with the history of last 1000 years or think about it before casting their votes. I was implying that the events of history have effected the attitudes of the people. Since converting to pacifist Islam at the hands of Sufis, Punjabis remained mostly true to their teachings. This does not mean that they remember the teachings of the Sufis. Actually most Punjabis can not name the particular Sufi responsible for their ancestor’s conversion. The peace and relative prosperity during the 100 years of colonial rule made them politically pacifist also although there was plenty of activism in the cities and Jullianwala Bagh incident will attest to that.
All politics was (and is) local, especially in the parliamentary system. The Punjabis who voted for Unionist in 1937 election were voting their locally powerful feudal as well as non-feudal leaders and these local leaders together constituted the Unionist party. The vote for Unionist party had nothing to do with supporting or opposing the freedom movement. Neither ML nor Congress had strong support among these traditional local leaders to be able to convincingly convey their message. Moreover, the activist Muslim leadership was divided between ML, Khaksars and Ahrars. Muslim League had only two major leaders, Nawab Mamdot and Mumtaz Daultana, who do not have large support beyond Lahore and Multan respectively.
The vote for present day PML has nothing to do with the ML of the freedom movement. Actually the make up of PML in the rural Punjab resembles more with the Unionist party of the forties. The recent elections are not a beauty contest between BB and NS rather people voting for their local leaders who belong to PML or PPP.
In short, the rise of locally powerful politicians neither form the descendants of the ruling elite of afghan-turkic empires nor from orthodox religious leaders are the direct consequence of history and this is exactly what I meant by Punjabis voting differently than most other Muslims during 1937 election.
I intentionally used the term ‘study the history’ which according to Arnold Toynbee’s definition means the causes and effects of history instead of knowing or describing the history. It will be naive for me or any other person to think that most Punjabis were (or are) familiar with the history of last 1000 years or think about it before casting their votes. I was implying that the events of history have effected the attitudes of the people. Since converting to pacifist Islam at the hands of Sufis, Punjabis remained mostly true to their teachings. This does not mean that they remember the teachings of the Sufis. Actually most Punjabis can not name the particular Sufi responsible for their ancestor’s conversion. The peace and relative prosperity during the 100 years of colonial rule made them politically pacifist also although there was plenty of activism in the cities and Jullianwala Bagh incident will attest to that.
All politics was (and is) local, especially in the parliamentary system. The Punjabis who voted for Unionist in 1937 election were voting their locally powerful feudal as well as non-feudal leaders and these local leaders together constituted the Unionist party. The vote for Unionist party had nothing to do with supporting or opposing the freedom movement. Neither ML nor Congress had strong support among these traditional local leaders to be able to convincingly convey their message. Moreover, the activist Muslim leadership was divided between ML, Khaksars and Ahrars. Muslim League had only two major leaders, Nawab Mamdot and Mumtaz Daultana, who do not have large support beyond Lahore and Multan respectively.
The vote for present day PML has nothing to do with the ML of the freedom movement. Actually the make up of PML in the rural Punjab resembles more with the Unionist party of the forties. The recent elections are not a beauty contest between BB and NS rather people voting for their local leaders who belong to PML or PPP.
In short, the rise of locally powerful politicians neither form the descendants of the ruling elite of afghan-turkic empires nor from orthodox religious leaders are the direct consequence of history and this is exactly what I meant by Punjabis voting differently than most other Muslims during 1937 election.
#122 Posted by bahmad on November 10, 1999 2:53:39 am
In response to SameerJB (Reply # 122)
Dear Sameer JB:
Your statement: ``Punjab history is no one liner, set in 1946 elections. You have to study the history of Punjab of the past 1000 years to understand the justification of Punjabis choosing unionist party over Muslim League and Congress.``
Comment: So, those Punjabis who voted for the Unionist Party knew the 1000 year long history of Punjab. Is this what you are implying? If there is some element of truth in your implication, it would interesting to find out why Muslim League has been so popular in post-independence Punjab. Could you identify a couple of authentic books on the history and politics of Punjab that deal with the issues at hand?
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
Dear Sameer JB:
Your statement: ``Punjab history is no one liner, set in 1946 elections. You have to study the history of Punjab of the past 1000 years to understand the justification of Punjabis choosing unionist party over Muslim League and Congress.``
Comment: So, those Punjabis who voted for the Unionist Party knew the 1000 year long history of Punjab. Is this what you are implying? If there is some element of truth in your implication, it would interesting to find out why Muslim League has been so popular in post-independence Punjab. Could you identify a couple of authentic books on the history and politics of Punjab that deal with the issues at hand?
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
#121 Posted by SameerJB on November 9, 1999 5:26:22 pm
Tariqlodi
I beg to differ on every point you have made in your last post. In my opinion:
1. Punjab history is no one liner, set in 1946 elections. You have to study the history of Punjab of the past 1000 years to understand the justification of Punjabis choosing unionist party over Muslim League and Congress. I can not reproduce all the history here except stating that Punjabis were playing the pivotal role for 100 years in the colonial rule and reaped the dividends of peace as compared to previous 900 years when they were reduced to just an outpost of Afghan-Turkic empires of India, largely ignored, often plundered and limited to two cities, Lahore and Multan which were always administered by afghan or turkic administrator. The punjabis had every reason to be suspicious when the descendents of the afghan-turkic masters asked them to join hand in the mane of religion.
2. The event at Lahore railway station can, at best, be a localized event by few individuals, besides most of the immigration from U.P. and Bihar took place through Khokrapar in Sindh and not through Lahore. Most of Punjab cities have sizable immigrant population and do not have any apparent problems.
3. The dominance of Punjabis in the army is the result of traditions developed during the colonial rule. Actually it is few district in the northern Punjab and Hazara, Mardan and Bannu of NWFP which provide bulk of the army soldiers while officers caders come from all over Pakistan as reflected in the ethnicities of the past and present COAS and core commanders. Naturally more casualties of the major ethnic group will be expected in any war. Dominance of one ethnic group is not localized to army only. Wapda is predominently Pathans while Pakistan Railways, PIA and Pakistan Steel Mills Corporation are predominently mohajir.
4. Last elections were largely fair, though low turn out. All the credible studies in Europe and in USA suggest that a higher percent of people voting do not change the outcome. It is nonscence to think that all those people who did not vote would have voted the losing candidates.
5. Mohajirs do not have their backs against the wall. They are as Pakistani as any other group. But they should understand the sensibilities of the other groups. For example, why to stress so hard to bring stranded Biharis from Bangladesh when there is no support for it in rest of Pakistan. When most were voting either PPP or PML, they chose JI and JUP and recently voted overwhelmingly for MQM who has no support outside mohajirs. That is why some people are criticizing their attempt to create an identity which unlike other ethnicities, is not linked to the geography.
I beg to differ on every point you have made in your last post. In my opinion:
1. Punjab history is no one liner, set in 1946 elections. You have to study the history of Punjab of the past 1000 years to understand the justification of Punjabis choosing unionist party over Muslim League and Congress. I can not reproduce all the history here except stating that Punjabis were playing the pivotal role for 100 years in the colonial rule and reaped the dividends of peace as compared to previous 900 years when they were reduced to just an outpost of Afghan-Turkic empires of India, largely ignored, often plundered and limited to two cities, Lahore and Multan which were always administered by afghan or turkic administrator. The punjabis had every reason to be suspicious when the descendents of the afghan-turkic masters asked them to join hand in the mane of religion.
2. The event at Lahore railway station can, at best, be a localized event by few individuals, besides most of the immigration from U.P. and Bihar took place through Khokrapar in Sindh and not through Lahore. Most of Punjab cities have sizable immigrant population and do not have any apparent problems.
3. The dominance of Punjabis in the army is the result of traditions developed during the colonial rule. Actually it is few district in the northern Punjab and Hazara, Mardan and Bannu of NWFP which provide bulk of the army soldiers while officers caders come from all over Pakistan as reflected in the ethnicities of the past and present COAS and core commanders. Naturally more casualties of the major ethnic group will be expected in any war. Dominance of one ethnic group is not localized to army only. Wapda is predominently Pathans while Pakistan Railways, PIA and Pakistan Steel Mills Corporation are predominently mohajir.
4. Last elections were largely fair, though low turn out. All the credible studies in Europe and in USA suggest that a higher percent of people voting do not change the outcome. It is nonscence to think that all those people who did not vote would have voted the losing candidates.
5. Mohajirs do not have their backs against the wall. They are as Pakistani as any other group. But they should understand the sensibilities of the other groups. For example, why to stress so hard to bring stranded Biharis from Bangladesh when there is no support for it in rest of Pakistan. When most were voting either PPP or PML, they chose JI and JUP and recently voted overwhelmingly for MQM who has no support outside mohajirs. That is why some people are criticizing their attempt to create an identity which unlike other ethnicities, is not linked to the geography.
#120 Posted by tariqlodi on November 9, 1999 8:27:41 am
RoohiAD#66.
My dear since you and stammer like a child and have not learnt to say Musharraf yet one can assume that you are mostly banking on hearsay. It is not advisable to disturb the ashes or sparks will ensue and may cause a fire. But since you already in your innocence have, ring for the fire brigade:
1. The poor masses of Punjab, who did not and do not matter, may have been jubilant on creation of Pakistan. The Elites and the people who mattered did not vote for Muslim League then and Muslim League did not win the 1946 elections in Punjab and the N.W.F.P.
2. As for the ansars role, people do have memories of having been told at Lahore Railway station when they were not allowed to leave the station and were told that Pakistan is far forward, ?Pakistan aage hai!? and who called you?
3.Yes in 1965 and 1971 mostly it were Punjabi brethren who laid their lives because their elders would not let people from other provinces join the armed forces. I wonder what has been the height of General Jahandad Khan and I wonder if Japan, Philipines Indonesia Korea and Bangladesh forces and other dwarfs of the world import perfectly tailored personnel from elsewhere.
4. Here you are sadly sadly very very mistaken that any government was formed in Pakistan by elections. They were installed by the armed forces, dominated by our Punjabi Brethren and toppled by armed forces dominated by our Punjabi Brethren.
5. You are wrong here also the jernail you are talking of at the time of ouster of N.S. government not only was out of the country but also was not even on any land, he stood dismissed and hanging in the air.
Yes. It is a good sign for the first time in Pakistan that a mattarva has been accepted, perhaps, though may be out of necessity. And he knows Iam sure, if he wavers who he would be disappointing.
If your ?Allah Hafiz? is a prayer all truly loving Pakistanis join in chorus with you and particularly the muttarvas because they are the only people who need this word, PAKISTAN for their survival or they have no right, nowhere in the world to exist. They are Pakistanis by choice and not by compulsion.
Tariqlodi.
My dear since you and stammer like a child and have not learnt to say Musharraf yet one can assume that you are mostly banking on hearsay. It is not advisable to disturb the ashes or sparks will ensue and may cause a fire. But since you already in your innocence have, ring for the fire brigade:
1. The poor masses of Punjab, who did not and do not matter, may have been jubilant on creation of Pakistan. The Elites and the people who mattered did not vote for Muslim League then and Muslim League did not win the 1946 elections in Punjab and the N.W.F.P.
2. As for the ansars role, people do have memories of having been told at Lahore Railway station when they were not allowed to leave the station and were told that Pakistan is far forward, ?Pakistan aage hai!? and who called you?
3.Yes in 1965 and 1971 mostly it were Punjabi brethren who laid their lives because their elders would not let people from other provinces join the armed forces. I wonder what has been the height of General Jahandad Khan and I wonder if Japan, Philipines Indonesia Korea and Bangladesh forces and other dwarfs of the world import perfectly tailored personnel from elsewhere.
4. Here you are sadly sadly very very mistaken that any government was formed in Pakistan by elections. They were installed by the armed forces, dominated by our Punjabi Brethren and toppled by armed forces dominated by our Punjabi Brethren.
5. You are wrong here also the jernail you are talking of at the time of ouster of N.S. government not only was out of the country but also was not even on any land, he stood dismissed and hanging in the air.
Yes. It is a good sign for the first time in Pakistan that a mattarva has been accepted, perhaps, though may be out of necessity. And he knows Iam sure, if he wavers who he would be disappointing.
If your ?Allah Hafiz? is a prayer all truly loving Pakistanis join in chorus with you and particularly the muttarvas because they are the only people who need this word, PAKISTAN for their survival or they have no right, nowhere in the world to exist. They are Pakistanis by choice and not by compulsion.
Tariqlodi.
#119 Posted by RoohiAD on November 8, 1999 12:25:54 am
Jernaile Mutterraf wants to be known as a Lahori!
Well beleive it or not jernaile Mutterraf wants to be known as a Lahori (Punjabi) contrary to the fact that he can`t even speak punjabi, probably he thinks Punjabi as inferior. Jernaile Mutterraf has instructed his military intelligence that the word be spread in interior Punjab that jernaile Mutterraf belongs to Lahore. Then the jernaile claims, he has no political motives; LOL. Let me tell you one thing, when Pakistan came into being, like everyone else, Punjabis were enthusiastic, rather over enthusiastic as my dad recalls. Punjabis played `Ansars` role, they open heartedly accepted Urdu as national language, but Bengalis and Sindhis never did not. Punjab has sufferred because of its giving and scarificing nature. In 1965 and 1971 and now 1999, most of, rather all of shaheeds were from Punjab. I am pleased to say that for past five decades, never ever a government with a Punjabi head of state was never formed through the back door channels. In recent past government from Punjab was formed through elelctions, twice democratically elected PM Nawaz Sharif`s government. This had scared enemies of Pakistan, first time NS was removed though he was doing excellent, again through army pressure; second time the enemies didn`t play it simple,but announced support of NS government and lead to its intriguing downfall. When NS came to power, in both tenures, the opposition formed alliance, and leaders from smaller provinces, mostly feudals, refused to work with NS. Displaying highest level of hatred for Punjab leadership originated from a mid class. Opposition claimed that smaller provinces are being neglected. All the four marshall laws where either imposed by NWFP or Mutter jernails. What is all this nonsense? I beleive that enemies of Pakistan know that they cannot break Pakistan unless the largest province is deprieved of its rights. So their agents in Pakistan continue to do so, and if jernaile Mutterraf on his mission, leading us to another, rather final disaster; To break Pakistan jernaile ji you will have to get rid of NS, may be hang NS and other popular leaders of Punjab, rsulting a strong wave of resentment in Punjab. Keep it up jernaile ji, Allah Hafiz Pakistan. But mind it, if you dare do so, we are still there, we will snatch your skin.
Roohi A Ditta
Well beleive it or not jernaile Mutterraf wants to be known as a Lahori (Punjabi) contrary to the fact that he can`t even speak punjabi, probably he thinks Punjabi as inferior. Jernaile Mutterraf has instructed his military intelligence that the word be spread in interior Punjab that jernaile Mutterraf belongs to Lahore. Then the jernaile claims, he has no political motives; LOL. Let me tell you one thing, when Pakistan came into being, like everyone else, Punjabis were enthusiastic, rather over enthusiastic as my dad recalls. Punjabis played `Ansars` role, they open heartedly accepted Urdu as national language, but Bengalis and Sindhis never did not. Punjab has sufferred because of its giving and scarificing nature. In 1965 and 1971 and now 1999, most of, rather all of shaheeds were from Punjab. I am pleased to say that for past five decades, never ever a government with a Punjabi head of state was never formed through the back door channels. In recent past government from Punjab was formed through elelctions, twice democratically elected PM Nawaz Sharif`s government. This had scared enemies of Pakistan, first time NS was removed though he was doing excellent, again through army pressure; second time the enemies didn`t play it simple,but announced support of NS government and lead to its intriguing downfall. When NS came to power, in both tenures, the opposition formed alliance, and leaders from smaller provinces, mostly feudals, refused to work with NS. Displaying highest level of hatred for Punjab leadership originated from a mid class. Opposition claimed that smaller provinces are being neglected. All the four marshall laws where either imposed by NWFP or Mutter jernails. What is all this nonsense? I beleive that enemies of Pakistan know that they cannot break Pakistan unless the largest province is deprieved of its rights. So their agents in Pakistan continue to do so, and if jernaile Mutterraf on his mission, leading us to another, rather final disaster; To break Pakistan jernaile ji you will have to get rid of NS, may be hang NS and other popular leaders of Punjab, rsulting a strong wave of resentment in Punjab. Keep it up jernaile ji, Allah Hafiz Pakistan. But mind it, if you dare do so, we are still there, we will snatch your skin.
Roohi A Ditta
#118 Posted by UR on November 6, 1999 6:52:11 pm
Correction to reply #116:
Pu Li # 112:
Nicely stated. I agree with pretty much everything you have said. (forgot the word, ``much``)
Pu Li # 112:
Nicely stated. I agree with pretty much everything you have said. (forgot the word, ``much``)
#117 Posted by RoohiAD on November 6, 1999 11:35:20 am
YET MORE DISAPPOINTMENT OVER CABINET MEMBERS
Usman Aminuddin, though an oil and gas industry related professional, is yet not a suitable selection for the post of minister for petroleum and natural resources. Usman runs his own bussiness in collaboration with one `Shahzad International`` of Islamabad, owned by one Zahid Muzaffar, son of a retd. army general. These people are notorious for being class-I crooks, and their roots are spread deep into the ministry of petroleum and natural resources, that includes Gulfaraz, secretary, the oppotunitist and most dishonest person in the oil industry. Gulfaraz made a shady deal on award of Qadirpur contract for $ 105 million to an Italian firm to oblige the then COAS, general Mirza Aslam Beg. Please note the Italian bid as US$ 43 million more expensive than the lowest bid of a Canadian company that was in full compliance. This great service of Gulfaraz(we better write him Gulloo) gave him a green card with miltary intelligence and ISI ever since. Gulloo was inducted by Benazir, general mirza Aslam Beg helped him survive through with Nawaz tenure, and Gulloo is still in there. All deals for oil and gas industry related concessions and contracts are made through this group of crooks. Well they can serve generals purpose for making easy money over oil deals but imagine how much they are going to loot to give a part of it to the generals.
And that Asghar Khan`s son, the ``Alloo Putter`` (potatoe`s son), a worthless smuggler and notoriously known for his g_y activities in the frontier province, Allah have mercy on us. In last elections, a local hijra contested elections against ``Alloo Putter``, claiming that he was his he-girl friend. Well Allo Putter couldn`t win the elections then, nor his hijra friend.
It appears like general Mutterraf with all his sincerity continues to head for a greater disaster.
Roohi Allah Ditta
Usman Aminuddin, though an oil and gas industry related professional, is yet not a suitable selection for the post of minister for petroleum and natural resources. Usman runs his own bussiness in collaboration with one `Shahzad International`` of Islamabad, owned by one Zahid Muzaffar, son of a retd. army general. These people are notorious for being class-I crooks, and their roots are spread deep into the ministry of petroleum and natural resources, that includes Gulfaraz, secretary, the oppotunitist and most dishonest person in the oil industry. Gulfaraz made a shady deal on award of Qadirpur contract for $ 105 million to an Italian firm to oblige the then COAS, general Mirza Aslam Beg. Please note the Italian bid as US$ 43 million more expensive than the lowest bid of a Canadian company that was in full compliance. This great service of Gulfaraz(we better write him Gulloo) gave him a green card with miltary intelligence and ISI ever since. Gulloo was inducted by Benazir, general mirza Aslam Beg helped him survive through with Nawaz tenure, and Gulloo is still in there. All deals for oil and gas industry related concessions and contracts are made through this group of crooks. Well they can serve generals purpose for making easy money over oil deals but imagine how much they are going to loot to give a part of it to the generals.
And that Asghar Khan`s son, the ``Alloo Putter`` (potatoe`s son), a worthless smuggler and notoriously known for his g_y activities in the frontier province, Allah have mercy on us. In last elections, a local hijra contested elections against ``Alloo Putter``, claiming that he was his he-girl friend. Well Allo Putter couldn`t win the elections then, nor his hijra friend.
It appears like general Mutterraf with all his sincerity continues to head for a greater disaster.
Roohi Allah Ditta
#116 Posted by UR on November 6, 1999 7:24:46 am
Pu Li # 112:
Nicely stated. I agree with pretty everything you have said.
Nicely stated. I agree with pretty everything you have said.
#115 Posted by RoohiAD on November 6, 1999 2:43:31 am
MORE DISAPPOINTMENT OVER THE CABINET AND NSC MEMBERS --- WHY NAWAZ ACTED ON THE LAST DAY OF GENERAL MUTTERRAF`s TOUR TO SRI-LANKA
General Mutterraf`s cabinet is a complete disappointment, and so is the NSC team. General Moinuddin has been assigned ministery of interior only based on the fact that he has personnel score to settle against Nawaz. Please recall only less than a year ago, general Moinuddin had to resign from his position as governor after a meeting with Nawaz. Close associates of Nawaz claim than general Moin was involved in other activities than what his job as governor demanded from him. General Mutterraf has brought him in position so that he can put his iron hand on muslim league. So what is the difference in governance, Mutterraf? Similar sort of news are there for Sharifuddin Pirzada, Atiya Inayat Ullah and Mohammad Yaqoob.
In military takeover, one important event is the fact that general Mutterraf had gone for a three day visit to SriLanka, where he had conference with the army chiefs of SAARC, most important being Indian COAS. It would have been reasonable for Nawaz to dismiss mutterraf the day he had left, if the reason was some ongoing dispute. But why Nawaz acted on the third and last day of general Mutterraf visit to Srilanka, why? Certainly some new information from intelligence circles had surfaced to Nawaz`s ear by that time. Tight lipped diplomats claim a secret meeting of general Mutterraf with indian COAS. Who knows why India has not strongly condemned the military coup in Pakistan? Indian reaction to present coup in Pakistan is lot more mild than to earlier 1958 and 1977 military takeovers, which were openly condemned by India. Well the general Mutterraf of Dehli might turn out to be gobachev of Pakistan. WAKE UP COUNTRY MEN, WATCH LIKE HAWKS, THESE ARE BANARSI TUGS. If we loose this last chance, as plans seem to be, Allh forbid, we might loose our independence.
General Mutterraf`s cabinet is a complete disappointment, and so is the NSC team. General Moinuddin has been assigned ministery of interior only based on the fact that he has personnel score to settle against Nawaz. Please recall only less than a year ago, general Moinuddin had to resign from his position as governor after a meeting with Nawaz. Close associates of Nawaz claim than general Moin was involved in other activities than what his job as governor demanded from him. General Mutterraf has brought him in position so that he can put his iron hand on muslim league. So what is the difference in governance, Mutterraf? Similar sort of news are there for Sharifuddin Pirzada, Atiya Inayat Ullah and Mohammad Yaqoob.
In military takeover, one important event is the fact that general Mutterraf had gone for a three day visit to SriLanka, where he had conference with the army chiefs of SAARC, most important being Indian COAS. It would have been reasonable for Nawaz to dismiss mutterraf the day he had left, if the reason was some ongoing dispute. But why Nawaz acted on the third and last day of general Mutterraf visit to Srilanka, why? Certainly some new information from intelligence circles had surfaced to Nawaz`s ear by that time. Tight lipped diplomats claim a secret meeting of general Mutterraf with indian COAS. Who knows why India has not strongly condemned the military coup in Pakistan? Indian reaction to present coup in Pakistan is lot more mild than to earlier 1958 and 1977 military takeovers, which were openly condemned by India. Well the general Mutterraf of Dehli might turn out to be gobachev of Pakistan. WAKE UP COUNTRY MEN, WATCH LIKE HAWKS, THESE ARE BANARSI TUGS. If we loose this last chance, as plans seem to be, Allh forbid, we might loose our independence.
#114 Posted by jay on November 5, 1999 2:52:43 am
UR,
Of course, i do not deny that india has no intention to implement UN resolution. India would have done it before simla. But the important point you are refusing to admit is that since simla and lahore, the primacy is on bilateral. I reapeat, UN being a mutilateral organisation, it is well and truly out of kashmir. Just think of it, why is simla repeated again and again, in lahore, in washington, the sanctity of the line of control. Just wake up, bilateral, bilateral... Un is multi lateral.
One of the major reasons why india did not cross LOC during kargill was that it would have allowed pakistan to approach UN. As long as the incidents are restricted to LOC, it is bilateral domain.
Your hypothetical question about plebicte out come, well i can only give a reasoned answer. At present pakistan has nothing to offer to the kashmiris, a nation waiting for a self apponited chief executive to bring about economic growth and national prid, well a kashmiri voting for that option should have rocks in his/her head, or is a product of madrassa. Remaining with india is a status quo, no decision is required. Kashmiris should be convinced of a better future to change that.
Now the third option, this is non existent, never part of anything. The real option all along is to join india or pakistan.
The third is a dog in the manger idea, now pushed in the chowk. This is really pathetic, it is an admission that pakistan has nothing to offer.
Well, i can comment on it when at least some pakistanis on the chowk unreservedly admit that pakistan is not a desirable country for kashiris to join, at least at present.
Of course, i do not deny that india has no intention to implement UN resolution. India would have done it before simla. But the important point you are refusing to admit is that since simla and lahore, the primacy is on bilateral. I reapeat, UN being a mutilateral organisation, it is well and truly out of kashmir. Just think of it, why is simla repeated again and again, in lahore, in washington, the sanctity of the line of control. Just wake up, bilateral, bilateral... Un is multi lateral.
One of the major reasons why india did not cross LOC during kargill was that it would have allowed pakistan to approach UN. As long as the incidents are restricted to LOC, it is bilateral domain.
Your hypothetical question about plebicte out come, well i can only give a reasoned answer. At present pakistan has nothing to offer to the kashmiris, a nation waiting for a self apponited chief executive to bring about economic growth and national prid, well a kashmiri voting for that option should have rocks in his/her head, or is a product of madrassa. Remaining with india is a status quo, no decision is required. Kashmiris should be convinced of a better future to change that.
Now the third option, this is non existent, never part of anything. The real option all along is to join india or pakistan.
The third is a dog in the manger idea, now pushed in the chowk. This is really pathetic, it is an admission that pakistan has nothing to offer.
Well, i can comment on it when at least some pakistanis on the chowk unreservedly admit that pakistan is not a desirable country for kashiris to join, at least at present.
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