Autobiography of a Forgotten Indian

Amit, I agree with most of your ideas except one.

I take exception to your following suggestion:

Hindus used to be very close minded people but look how they have changed in the past 50 years. 50 years back, it was absurd to think of a Punjabi marrying a Tamilian. Today these things are non-events and both Punjabi and Tamilian cultures are stronger. Muslims do not need to go that far, but at least they should come out of their self imposed shell.

Are you suggesting that Muslims marry Hindus? Why?

How come most of the Hindu writers want us to assimilate? Assimilation is a synonym for decimating the muslim populace. There is other way to put it. You have psuedo sociologist and historian`s putting forth their theories and all. Hello!!!! If Muslim rule was ``so cruel`` that unjustice flowed in all the rivers, then during the 900 years or so, the hindu way of life should have been eradicated.

BUT, this is not so. Because that was not the motive of the rulers then nor is it the motive Indian Muslims now. This false agenda is just a fabrication of the hinduvata brigade. This is the same strata who`s notion that the only ``true Indian`` muslim is the one who worship idols.

Those writers emphasising that muslims are treated the same because the have their civil code and the famous qoute ``are allowed to have FOUR wives``

Please all you ignoramuses, we are allowed to have a separate civil code, just as you have your civil code. This is NOT a concession you have made, it is our right. And please if you are so envious of the ``four wives allowance``, go keep some mistresses. If you cannot with a open mind understand my religion, then you don`t the right to malign it either.

Islam and Hinduism is like oil and water. Their teachings are totally different. What is norm for you (eg. idol worship), is totally against my religion. But that does not give me the right to put down your religion or you malign my religion.

We have co-existed for centuries, and there is no reason that we should not do it for centuries ahead.

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EDUCATION, RELIGION AND POLYGAMY

Since I am the only identified Keralite on the chowk, may be I should stake my claim as the resident sociologist, a participant observer of the hindu-muslim-christian melting pot of Kerala, in the great tradition of Margaret Mead. As a religious group Muslims are less educated in India, even in Kerala. The value of education in the Hindu system is transmitted through folk tales, mythologies and the Panchatantra stories, which are absent in an average Muslim household because of the religious connotations. In the educated Muslim households, these stories take a secular hue, the parents seem to encourage it and the cycle of low education seem to break.

So where does polygamy come in; in Kerala polygamy is practiced mainly by the less educated. Polygamy follows a matriarchal (this was practiced by certain castes of the Hindus) system, the husband moves to the wives house, or rather circulates around. The typical remark of parents of a girl in polygamous marriage is “ oh what to do, my daughter is not well educated”. Polygamy, though legally and religiously sanctioned is considered as undesirable and demeaning by at least one party, with education as an escape hatch.

Educated Muslims in monogamous system have a matriarchal arrangement with the wife moving to the husband’s house. As some one pointed out, this could be considered as hinduisation of Islam with attendant changes in the value system, typically relating to education. It could be correct to allege that the dominant value of the Hinduism exerts subtle pressures on Islam to change.

There appears to be some causal link between children from polygamous households and low education levels, a cyclical link. There could be numerous social factors related to it, the large joint family, lack of fatherly attention, overcrowding in households etc. It could be interesting to know the education-Islam-monogamy link in other societies.

Reply #: 82

jkhawaja.

``islam demands tolerance and civil liberties for all. the only way for this to exit is the establishment of a totally secualr state, with complete separation of islam and state. ``

I have heard that Islam gives instructions of a complete way of life, including judicial, and legal rights. So seperation of church and state is not possible within Islam.

Also, in the Koran, I have read passages which sometimes call for conversion against Kafirs, (by force if required) and sometimes it preaches tolerance.

Why this contradiction ?

AD

Reply #: 81

jkhawaja

``this is not the case. they have simply been denied civil rights and social services for so long that it is difficult for them as a race to recuperate. the same analogy applies to the muslim world. and as india keeps them from receiving the aid that they need, they furthur depress their economic status. so the blame for the muslim plight in india falls squarely upon the government of india.``

Muslims ruled India, for 900 years +. The rule for the most time was brutal. The Hindu culture, education etc were forcibly suppressed. Then how the hell do you say that Muslims were ``denied civil rights and social services for a long time.``

Hellloooo, get real. The British had the same disdain for Hindus and Muslims. So if they suppressed people, they did so equally.

And as far as Civil Rights, Muslims are the only minority that have special civil laws to follow. So where does the denying of civil rights come.

As far as championing the Hindu cause is concerned, where else in the world would you find a population that has been bullied into submission for such a long time. From the barbaric muslim invaders (no offence intended), to the British occupation of INdia, where did you see such a bunch of dis-united people (agreed it is our fault).

So even though 80% of the people in India are Hindus, it is not correct to assume that they have a powerful say in the Govt. Becuase, the 80% are not united.

The BJP is the first org, which has actually made Hindus proud of who they are, instead of being guilty for being the majority.

Tell me one SECULAR country where muslims are given more rights than India, and I will agree with you that muslims are being suppressed !!!

AD

AD

Re:Studebaker

Sorry for not being able to reply earlier. I think that muslims in India must start a grassroots campaign at uplifting their community. Such a campaign needs to address the social, political, economic and religious issues in a combined manner. One thing you have to realize is that the situation in India is changing rapidly. Millions of people, like the lower caste people, are getting empowered by democracy and they are not willing to accept the status quo. We can laugh at the Yadavs of UP/Bihar or the Mayawatis and Kanshi Rams. However, these people are becoming power brokers and the old rules of upper caste control are disintegrating. People are demanding results and improvements in their lives. Even the BJP has put all its contentious issues on the backburner. You combine economic liberalization with this process and you have a very exciting, dynamic environment that is causing complete upheaval of the socio-economic structures.

Muslims must step forward and seize this opportunity to redefine their destiny within India. First of all, there must be a dedicated focus of education. If there can be Missionary operated schools, why can`t muslims start chains of schools and colleges ? If Sir Syed could do it in British India, what is stopping muslims today ? While teaching modern subjects, you can include religion as well. Some seats can be set aside for non-muslims. The reason you feel non-mulims are insensitive is because they do not have any exposure to Islam and they do not understand the muslim culture. Secondly, there should be a concerted effort at economic renewal. This can happen by encouraging small business and enterpreneurship. The micro-lending model used by Grameen Bank in Bangladesh is a good concept. Money can be pooled and loaned out to deserving muslims who want to start their business. Muslim groups can lobby their MPs and MLAs to get the government to support such ventures financially. The Hamdard model of health care can also be adopted to start health care centers. This will provide employment while serving a massive need for primary health care in society. Muslims also should hop on the IT bandwagon since it does not need too much capital.

Thirdly at a social level, muslims should encourage interaction with large numbers of non-muslims. For e.g. organize Urdu poetry sessions or classical music sessions and invite everyone to attend. Social interaction enables dialogue and understanding. Hindus used to be very close minded people but look how they have changed in the past 50 years. 50 years back, it was absurd to think of a Punjabi marrying a Tamilian. Today these things are non-events and both Punjabi and Tamilian cultures are stronger. Muslims do not need to go that far, but at least they should come out of their self imposed shell.

At a politcal level, I would suggest that muslims should be very vocal in their Indian nationalism and patriotism. This may sound unfair, but there is a lingering ill-will from partition that should be erased now. Being very vocal about their patriotism does not cost muslims anything but it buys them major goodwill that has a spillover into economic and social benefits. Muslims, especially the clergy from Deoband, Bareilley etc., should definitely help India on the Kashmir issue by being a liaison with the Kashmiri people. While we wait for negotiations with Pakistanis that can take decades, at least we should try to make life better for the Kashmiris by providing them with some sense of hope and optimism as well as economic opportunities. The bottom line is that muslims in India should take the initiative and take their rightful share like other communities.

mythbreaker: You stated, ``. i think it is better for me to stop reading chowk.`` I would encourage you not to stop reading chowk. Even though there is lot of trash-talking between Pakistanis and Indians on this site, it is still quite a bit less than other sites I have seen. And, it is mutual, so Indians and Pakistanis are both doing it, and are allowed to do it. Just ignore the comments that are made to you personally, and only concentrate on the replies that criticize your ideas, and not you directrly. That is what I do.

Discussion and negotiation on sensitive issues is a very difficult process. It is very easy to get into discussions with people who support one`s point of view, or are very civil in their approach. However, my experience has been that discussing difficult issues unfortunately always involve anomocities, hatred and personal criticism. That is why they are so difficult to solve. The discussions on chowk pretty much give one an experience of all the negative and positive aspects of conflict negotiation.

I personally have very clear views on India, Pakistan, Kashmir, Indians, Islam, Nawaz Sharif, Musharraf, Kargil, Siachen etc. I respect Indians, and count many among my close friends. My business partner is a Hindu Indian. At the same time I completely disagree with India`s stand on Kashmir. I feel Kashmiris should get their independence. However there is no need for Pakistan to gain any part of the Indian occupied Kashmiri territory. I dislike Nawaz Sharif, but dislike military coups, as well. I think a liberal form of Islam should be practiced in Pakistan. I think both Kargil and Siachen wrong, etc. etc. The point I am trying to make is not to describe where I stand on these issues. The point is that you and I and everyone else should discuss them so that we can understand each other`s point of view better, and figure out whether our stances are correct or incorrect.

As they say, discussions may be good or they may be bad, but not discussing issues at all is always bad. So don`t lose heart. There is no need to start hating Muslims just because of what you read here. Some of the replies from Indians to my comments contain all kinds of personal attacks, but that does not mean I will started hating Hindus.

PAKISTAN AND RUSSIA

UR

The total frustration you are feeling about Kashmir is symptomatic of the upheaval in Pakistan. Most of the people for a long time believed in the UN plebiscite line, unaware that Simla and Lahore have buried it, Kashmir is as far away from UN agenda as a black hole is from earth. There were not many takers for general PMs deprecating remarks about Lahore. Your valiant attempts to clothe Kashmir as a human rights issue is commentable may be you have credibility as an individual, but Pakistan credibility is the same as that of KKK in an Amnesty meeting. If your line represents a new Pakistani line, it will be as futile as the previous, a lot more blood, a lot more misery. Any one whose mind is not steeped in pak.org history, whose mind is not wrapped in TNT webbing, can benefit from the following analogy.

It is important to realise the parallels between Pakistan and Russia. Jinnah embraced the TNT formulated by some one else and established Pakistan, same relationship as Lenin and Marxism. The military build up of Russia was to defend against class enemy, capitalism while Pakistan’s was against India, the other nation, the exploitative, dominant enemy. Russia collapsed because of inherent deficiencies of implementation and the increasing military expenses, but still has vast natural resources, technological traditions and infrastructure. Pakistan has collapsed because of the inherent flaw of continuing with TNT after 1947 and transforming to an anti-India policy resulting in diversion of resources towards that. I realise that TNT is the arch stone of Pakistan and should be left at that. It is the metamorphosis and endless mutations of it, as I have mentioned in various posts that are draining Pakistan.

Russia has found the right solution by absorbing certain elements of capitalism, the very system they opposed. Pakistan solution also lies in a similar approach. But I cannot see that happen, Pakistan is going in the US direction which will destroy everything that an average Pakistani cherishes, the remnants of Jinnahs dream that is so often talked about. The US/IMF line will only lead to an islamic/taliban revolution in Pakistan, good or bad.

It is time for chowkirdars to change the line, only 2-3% are extremists, then why did general PM mention them in his first address, there are several sentences devoted to islamic extremism. As one of the knowledgeable chowkirdars mentioned, roti kapda our makhan is not enough for Pakistanis, there is a need for dignity. Any one from India would have settled for roti, kapda our makhan, the dignity would have been derived out of it. No even for educated chowkirdars there is a dignity to be derived out of the very well being of life, it is derived at the cost of India, it is derived out of TNT and its manifestations.

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Studebaker,

The extreme rag to riches stories, you give credit to god, for the rest it is to the family, which is unfortunate. May be you need to be fair in the credit distribution I studied in colleges and schools opened since independance, credit to gandhi, why not even jinnah, i studied with scholarships since year 10, credit to govt of india, i worked in a large public sector, credit to nehru for the temples of modern india program, for the luck and health, credit to god.

As you say, after family and god if there is nothing left, you will always find the politico oconomic system lacking. There are times even you have to be thankful to your enemies, if you have some.

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PEOPLE! PEOPLE! most of you are off base in your replies.

As a Indian muslim, I am just pointing out that we need educational institutions with emphasis on Islamic identity and high education standards. Schools or colleges whose students go to excel in whatever field they chose. Retaining a Islamic identity, does not mean that you are anti-Indian or anti-hindu.

Teaching children the fundamentals of Islam, does not mean you deny them other education. It does not mean that they become ``extremist``. Being secular does not mean you lose your identity and follow the norm of the majority. Everybody has the right to follow their religion, as long as it does not encroach other people (the people in minority) religion.

Studebaker,

``I believe many muslims students could be me if they were given OPPERTUNITIES that so lovingly given by my family.``

It is a good point you are making, where the credits should go, should it be to the family, or should it be to the land, the indomitable spirit of the land,( which inclused the family) it may be just a question of choosing the correct heirachy.

People who have lived through major transitions in the society, urban-rural, rich - poor and have suceeded tend to give credits to the land, the change is so significant, almost non-human that the credits have to go to something that transcends humans.

After joining for engineering, at 18, i went along with Sankaran to buy the first shoe ever in life. Walked for an hour to go to school, dreamt of having a house with electricity. To day Sankaran is one of the three vice presidents at the 2 billion dollar Reliance Industries. Our parents never had more than a couple of years at school.

Mustafa, whom i fondly talk about heads a defense industry in bangalore, his parents were illiterate farm workers.

We talk about our childhoods, we talk of the `wealth` we have, we know it is all a fleeting chemera compared to the eternla spirit of kerala, the drving force we had when we had nothing, the belief that hard work with a little bit luck can take us anywhere we choose. May be the change in our lives had been magical, the time frame so short, the cause un traceable that we find it hard to attribute it anything human. May be india, may be kerala, may be independance, may be god.

Studebaker,

``I believe many muslims students could be me if they were given OPPERTUNITIES that so lovingly given by my family.``

It is a good point you are making, where the credits should go, should it be to the family, or should it be to the land, the indomitable spirit of the land,( which inclused the family) it may be just a question of choosing the correct heirachy.

People who have lived through major transitions in the society, urban-rural, rich - poor and have suceeded tend to give credits to the land, the change is so significant, almost non-human that the credits have to go to something that transcends humans.

After joining for engineering, at 18, i went along with Sankaran to buy the first shoe ever in life. Walked for an hour to go to school, dreamt of having a house with electricity. To day Sankaran is one of the three vice presidents at the 2 billion dollar Reliance Industries. Our parents never had more than a couple of years at school.

Mustafa, whom i fondly talk about heads a defense industry in bangalore, his parents were illiterate farm workers.

We talk about our childhoods, we talk of the `wealth` we have, we know it is all a fleeting chemera compared to the eternla spirit of kerala, the drving force we had when we had nothing, the belief that hard work with a little bit luck can take us anywhere we choose. May be the change in our lives had been magical, the time frame so short, the cause un traceable that we find it hard to attribute it anything human. May be india, may be kerala, may be independance, may be god.

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