Autobiography of a Forgotten Indian

reply to studebreaker:

I am not suggesting that bollywood solves the problems of all the muslims in India. My point was that when there is talent, you will be succesful no matter what the religion is. I just wanted to give u an example saying that nobody is suppressing muslims as a community.

U said it was becoz of your parents u were successful.Same for me, no Indian govt gave me single rupee directly. It all depends on parents if a kid gets education or not. Part of the muslim illiteracy rate is due to the migration of educated indian muslims to pakistan( this continued till 1965),and the large families. Still there are lots of muslims who were successful in higher education. I myself know atleast 10 muslims who are in good IT jobs(some of them are my friends). Why do you want to point towards hindus for every problem faced by muslim community. Why don`t u do a impartial self analysis about this.

When i was studying my intermediate, my class topper was a muslim. We came from the same back ground(middle class family). He has the talent and he was the topper. Nobody tried to stop him from acheiving his goals. It is up to the muslims to realize the importance of education and start sending their kids to the modern schools instead of madersahs. Even when the british ruled it was the hindus who were good in academics. Atleast during that time u cannot blame the hindus as they r not the ruling govt. Muslims certainly has the talent, it is up to them in deciding how to harness those talents into useful proffessions. No gove can do anything if people want to have big families and madersah education.

It is sad that India failed to help its heroes( abid ali) when they needed help. but at the same time there were many hindu cricketers and hockey players who died of poverty. Sports persons in India started making money only from the last 20 yrs. I heard about a hockey player who was begging on the streets of patna(don`t remember his name).

To UR:

Sorry man, i was kind of mad at the guy who came up with figures of 2% muslim literacy rates(cooked up figure) and the other guy i forgot name(zkhwaza or somethign like that) who started his reply by branding India as a communal nation. I want to keep this discussion civilized, so i will try to control my feeling next time even after reading some stupid reply.

When i started reading chowk, i thought it is a perfect place for understanding pakistan and subcontinent muslims. But now slowly i am loosing interest, becoz some of the people are writing hate filled replies(not just in this article replies). I think these replies are causing me to think more negatively than to think positively about muslims. I donot want to hate anyone. I have some of the muslim friends, and i value their friendship. When i talk to them it never strikes me that they are muslim, For me they are like any other friends of mine. i think it is better for me to stop reading chowk.

Studebaker wrote:

``Bollywood doesnt count as an asset for Indian Muslims rather may be a favourable trap for the majority to neutralise the remaining muslims .Isnt that the end result either way,either kill them with hate or with too much love!``

Only a blind person would write such a statement. Dont tell me you dont hate Hindus, Studebaker, because only a person who distrusts Hindus could have written the above. Distrust is a form of hate.

Studebaker # 65

``If Indian muslims are just as good as there majority counterpart why are there numbers so low in key positions``

Come on now Studebaker. You speak what Orwell calls Doublespeak. On one hand you agree that muslims have been successful, but then you simply put them as exceptions. The fact that so many muslims have become successful, itself shows that muslims do not face the invisible wall that many blacks face in the USA.

If you are a business owner, would you hire a person qualified for the job or would you start hiring any tom, dick or harry who happens to be muslim. Get real !

I personally know, that in India, if you have the qualifications, you will get the job. Forget crappy govt jobs, I am talking about the highly lucrative IT industry. They look for talent not your religon or caste !!

I think the points cited in earlier postings about muslims and education are more real.

AD

Re: Studebaker #65

``If Indian muslims are just as good as their

majority counterpart why are there numbers so low

in key positions?``

You ask the question, and answer it both in the

same posting. You say that you were able to rise

to where you are becoz of the opportunities given

to you by your family. Well, how many of your

community are that lucky? How many have families

that can provide them with quality education?

As for affirmative action, I would really not

recommend its usage in India. Remember the bitter

hatred and caste feelings which surged up from

apparently nowhere during the Mandal riots? The

after-effects of trying to get reservations for

muslims are going to be that much worse, and that

much more unaffordable.

So where does that leave us? The government is

already trying to get madrassah`s upgraded to

provide education relevant to todays time. I am

sure that is not going to go down well with the

muslim community who will probably see a ``Hindu

conspiracy`` in it. Trusting the government to get

anything right is anyway expecting too much.

There already exist centres for higher education,

like AMU and Jamia Millia. I would be happy if

you could think up something else that the

government could do to improve the lot of the

muslims in india, without seeming to favor them

unduly.

It is som important to realize that ultimately

the initiative must come out of the community

itself. The world is not going to stop to allow

the muslims to catch up with them. It is up to

them to run harder. And in a country as poor and

desperate as India, that is even truer. So tell

me, if you feel so bad about the state of your

community in India, what have you done to improve

it? Or are you going to just wait till the

government can get round to doing something about

it?

-narain

I think that a lot of the problems that the

muslims in India find themselves in are due to

the fact that there is virtually no middle class

to lead them. Most of the muslims in UP for eg.,

fall into two broad categories:

The landed feudals who are somewhat into

politics, but who are now a fading power. Though

they are in some ways the natural leaders of the

muslim community, they have failed totally in

providing any political support to the interests

of the large majority of their co-religionists.

This is partly becoz their interests are so

completely different from them.

The poor class: These are the people who have

suffered the most. They are the natural victims

in any riot. They have no political voice, and

receive little support from the state. Yet the

general (Hindu) perception is that they have been

pampered becoz of the few inconsequential

tit-bits that the feudals were able to get for

them.

As far as the middle class is concerned, they

find themselves in a hard position. There are not

too many of them in the first case. Hence they

cannot assert themselves politically. Then they

find themselves rebuffed by the ``upper class`` on

the one hand, and unable to identify with the

``lower classes`` on the other. Education, and a

greater mixing with society in general have given

them a view of life which is different from the

rest.

From personal experience I know how difficult

life is for them. They are torn between the

social pressure on them to conform to the

``traditional`` muslim way of life on the one hand,

and the ``modern`` life that they see their friends

leading outside. Marriages are specially

problematic, and more so for the women. Educated

and Urbane, they have a very hard time finding

suitable spouses. The more educated and qualified

they are, the smaller the choices available.

-narain

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UR #61:

``I think ruling of a majority by a minority, against the will of the majority is unfair, and should be denounced. Keeping that in mind, how do the Hindus view the various Muslim kings that ruled over India``

This is not necessarily true. In those times, there was no other alternative. So it was acceptable in those times.

Most of the rulers were detested by the Hindus. Exceptions was Akbar. A mojority of the other rulers were muslim fundamentalists who were only interested in converting Hindus, by force.

AD

A lot of people seem to be trying to differentiate between good kings and bad kings. In my opinion, all kings by definition are bad. Regardless of how pious, religious, or secular kings maybe, the fact that they imposed themseleves on a population, against the will of the population, indicates that they are unfair. It goes against Islam`s concept of equality. I think ruling of a majority by a minority, against the will of the majority is unfair, and should be denounced. Keeping that in mind, how do the Hindus view the various Muslim kings that ruled over India? I would think that the kings are probably not too popular.

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Hi Guys,

I have been following the replies here which sounded to me silly.

one of the guy asked why in Indian history aurangazeb is portrayed negatively who is a pious muslim.

My answer for that is because he is a relgious bigot. What do u mean by pious muslim, just offering namaz five times a day. There are certain things done by Aurangazeb which made him villain in Indian history. One is Zizya. You don`t know the pain of paying tax by one who is leaving in his own country imposed by some this sick man.

He chopped of many hindu heads. since u don`t agree this, what about the number of sikhs killed during Aurangazeb time( guru govindh singh and his sons etc).

I don`t think u can call a person who jailed his father and who killed his three brothers a pious muslim. If u still think he is pious, then go and kill your brothers and jail your father then future generations will think of u as pious muslim.

About the literacy rates given by some other guy they are totally wrong( i guess he gave some numbers in his mind). It is not hindus who r trying to keep muslims backward. It is the mentality of muslims and their leaders to blame. all the schools and colleges are open to everyone irrespective of their castes and religion in India. Muslims give more importance to the religious education and some don`t give any importance at all no matter what koran is saying in this matter. Lets assume that In India Hindus are suppressing muslims thats why low literacy rate( 35% in muslims compared national avg of 50%). Why is that the literacy rate of pakistan is 35% where there are no hindus to suppress. Literacy rate through out the islamic world is less. Who r u going to blame i hope not hindus. It is about the priorities that makes one literate or not. Why is the birth rate through out the islaminc world is higher. With large families it is very difficult to feed and educate everyone. May be this is one reason. Donot tell me that large families are due to the illiteracy. There are so many illiterate people in India with small familes who are hindu and are slowly catching up with rest of the country in literacy rate.

One guy pointed out that there are no jordans etc in India( while comparing afro americans with indian muslims). Sir, u certainly donot know anything about India so no comments from you please. What about Azahruddin, pataudi etc( i cannot name all the muslim cricketers and hockey players). What about the bollywood film industry(u need names?). What about kalams and azeem premjis of wipro.Lots of ministers served in state and central cabinets. About the comparison of afro americans with indian muslims, it is wrong. Because we were the slaves for 1000 yrs and we are ones who paid zizya taxes in our own nation. Even blacks are better because they didn`t pay any such taxes.

When u think of Indian muslim literacy rates u have to think about the number of educated muslims migrated to pakistan also, leaving a vaccum in muslim society. Most of the muslims who migrated are highly educated. It is a fact that in starting years of pakistan most of the important positions were occupied by mohazirs.

Finally for pakistanis donot even question about indian secularism. Iam not saying it is perfect but atleast we are trying.Not like pakistan where minorities are separated from main stream right from elections. People who kill each other in sacred mosques, you guys donot have any moral ground to question us. Your only business seems to be sowing seeds of hatred in indian muslims and hindus.

Studebaker,

The most `religious` hindus i have ever come across are from south africa. For them, hinduism is frozen in time, at a time when their forefathers arrived in south africa and had little contact with india since then. Hinduism in india even for me is different from what i knew when i was a child. The same is true in the case of food. While in india to go to a `western restuarent` was great, the steake and sizzlers and boiled vegies were delicacies, now in a developed country i dont remember when last i had that crap as food. It is no match for rice and curry.

Now coming to education and religion, may be because of the daily four time prayer requirements, a lowly educated muslim emits `symptoms` of religion more often than a hindu of comparable education, while they seem to converge at higher education levels.

mythbreaker: You stated, ``Finally for pakistanis donot even question about indian secularism. Iam not saying it is perfect but atleast we are trying.Not like pakistan where minorities are separated from main stream right from elections. People who kill each other in sacred mosques, you guys donot have any moral ground to question us. Your only business seems to be sowing seeds of hatred in indian muslims and hindus.``

This discussion so far has been quite civilized. Please do not turn it into a Indian vs. Pakistani contest. There is no need to be paranoid. No one is trying to sow the seeds of hatred amongst Indian Hindus and Muslims. I doubt it is possible to do that by just writing replies to an article. Besides, most of the people replying to this article have already had detailed discussions/arguments etc. on India, Pakistan, Kashmir etc. So I think we all know where we stand on those issues.

The questions on this article are just an attempt to get first-hand knowledge of the Indian society. I believe in not believing everything I read in newspapers regarding India. I also think it is impossible to get accurate information about other societies without actually living in those societies. So what better way to understand the Indian society than by asking Indians directly. The only other option would be for me to keep my mind closed, and filled with biases about India.

from hindustan times of today, about muslim education.

Plan to modernise madarasas

New Delhi, November 11 (HT Correspondent)

The Human Resource Development (HRD) Ministry will soon set up a committee to suggest ways to modernise madarasa education in the country.

The objective is to encourage traditional institutions like madarasas and maktabs to modernise their curriculum and strengthen the schemes for giving financial assistance. Sources said the government is eager to help Muslim youth in getting an education status equivalent to the national education. At present the students of these institutions cannot compete for mainstream jobs and can at best aspire to jobs of imams and clerks in Wakf-run bodies.

UR;

There is a welcome change here, quotes from Bose is no substitute for reality touch. You have asked a few specific questions about muslims in india, my response is based on my experience in Kerala, which to some extend is the best the muslims have in india.

Muslims a considered a `backward caste` in kerala, they have reserved seats in medicene, engg etc and also in government jobs. But in general, muslims do not value education as much as the hindus, and on everage are less `educated`. But I cannot but mention this spectacular exception. In last december when I visited my muslim friend of 30 years, after a lot of hesitation he showed me an invitation letter signed by the PRESIDENT OF INDIA, inviting his daughter Femita and the family to attend the REPUBLIC DAY PARADE as a guest of the govt. of india, because his daughter came first in the HSC exam, an all-india year 12 level exam. Today Femita is a medical student at one of the most prestigeous researh institutes in india, JIPMER. I am proud of her.

Muslims, are they seperate people. There are certain rituals which make them distinctive. In all schools in kerala, friday lunch break is an hour extra, when the muslim students perform namaz. In all the govt offices and factories, muslims have a place of worship inside the factories, where if they choose they can pray 5 times or what ever. These are becoming more dominant, that is there is a concerted effort lately to make the muslims conform, which is creating some unrest in some places.

But again, education seem to be a major modifier, i dont know of any doctor/engineer muslim who is more `religious` than a hindu.

Muslims tend to concentrate in certain trades, transport (i dont know why) and areas of natural advantage, meat, fish and areas that need physical strength- keralites believe that meat gives the muslims physical strength while it is not good for the brains. To the question of are they becoming the blacks of USA, an underclass dominated by crime and poverty. No sir, definitely not, at least not in kerala.

Will they become like the bosnians, driven out of their lands. Definitely not in kerala, no `foreign` country to go to. Of course, i cannot stop it at that, for the kashmiri muslims there is always the first nation.