Again, Desperate Times

To: Aakar Patel

Aakar,

Read your article... good read. Also rummaged through the replies that were posted to it. People are staggeringly predictable are they not?

Aa shoo chhe badhoo? :)

happy

Re: Umairr # 387

The anniversary is not being `held` any where... Dec 6 just happens to be the anniversary of the destruction of the Babari Masjid and no matter what we do there will be a December 6 in every year hereafter. All joking aside however...

There were demonstrations all across the country...

Groups that can loosely be clumped together as `Minority`, `Leftist`, `Secular` (folks who truly believe in secularism out of the goodness of heart) & `Pseudo-Secular` (folks who put up a facade of secularism for vote bank politics and don`t fool anybody) protested the destruction of the Structure and shouted anti BJP slogans.

Groups belonging to the right wing of the Sangh Parivaar (read Shiv Sena & Bajrang Dal because VHP & RSS would be ideologically considered right wing but hardly ever take to the streets... the stooges in Sena & the Dal do the dirty work) took out rallies to insist that a Ram Mandir be built at the site of the destroyed structure.

Note my use of the word `structure` here and not Mosque. A disclaimer here... this is not a `linguistic trap`. An explanation: Apparently as per the Holy Quoran, there is some debate about the sanctity of a Mosque that is constructed by destroying an existing shrine of a different religion. Many Muslim scholars question whether the erstwhile structure should be referred to as a Masjid. And hence the constant use of the politically correct term structure.

On a more positive note... this anniversary was by far the most peaceful so far... hopefully passions are subsiding a tad.

Regarding the commotion in the parliament... there are three members of the lower house (Including the Home Minister LK Advani) that have been charged with conspiring to destroy the structure. The opposition demanded their resignations, this resulted in all kinds of fracas. The three in question submitted their resignations to the head honcho who rejected them. And life goes on.

Re: Umairr # 389

Good question. Am a little busy right now, give me a day or so and may be I can provide you with the parameters to judge BJP a bit better. In the meanwhile a little thought for you to mull over...

The GOP (Republican Party) in the US leans heavily on Christian Philosophy to provide its moral and ethical moorings. The traditional platforms of the GOP can be divided into two classes economical & moral. The economical platform is that of smaller government, lesser control on trade, lower welfare spending. The moral platform is that of strong family values, Judeo-Christian morality, Anti-Abortion movement, civil libertarian principles etc. A significant significant support for the GOP comes from the followers of the `Christian Right`. And yet there are millions of people who vote GOP despite being non-Christian and Pro-choice.

What I am saying here is that:

1. If you wanted to look at the GOP with colored eyes (and many people do) you can term it as a `fascist` & `intolerant` organization. Same applies to the BJP.

2. Just like when a person votes for the GOP, he is not by definition a racist gunloving person who lobs bombs on abortion clinics, when a person votes for the BJP, he is not by definition a Muslim Hater who brandishing a sledgehammer climbed the Babri that fatal day.

Regards

Lets Keep Talking

Umairr #389

Pakistan has had its eyes on Kashmir long before the rise of BJP. If it hadnot been for Lahore and Kargil, BJP would have been as insecure in power as it was in the last two elections. Pakistan gave Vajpayee a showcase for how he would act in a crisis situation: restrained, but unyielding, not overly jingoistic (as some in his party would have preferred). One election slogan was `Sharif, sharif na rahaa, Atal atal rahaa`. Most Indians trust Vajpayee (rightly or wrongly, only time will show) to show principle in other fields, too, which is more than many other politicians in the region can be expected to do. The recent uproar in Parliament was because an answer to a Masjid-related question on the Masjid anniversary posed by an Opposition member was answered by Home Minister Advani as essentially `status quo is being maintained till a legal decision is reached by the courts`. As LK Advani is one of the accused in a Masjid demolition-related court case, the Opposition got a chance to create an uproar. That`s what Parliaments are partly for. One of oppositions later contentions was `why is an accused in a court case holding office`. The retort was, `why didn`t you bring it up earlier, why today?`. By the way, the Moghul Babar was defended, too, yesterday in the Indian Parliament.

Repost of part of my post #134 makes sense.

With respect to the lack of Pakistani mass support for fundamentalism versus Indian public`s voting into power a party like BJP. I think Pakistani posters are trying to have it both ways. One post said I believe, that Nawaz Sharif claimed 2/3 majority after only 1/3 of the electorate voted and the results were largely rigged. Another figure I heard (not on chowk.com) about the percentage of voting was 17%. Now what can anyone infer from these figures about `lack` or otherwise of support for fundamentalists. Rather, I see in these figures a reason for fundamentalism. It seems that fundamentalism could well be considered by many in Pakistan to be the only way to operate within or defeat a corrupt electoral and political system (some others prefer army rule).

In contrast to `Hindu fundamentalists` who restrict themselves to activities within India and are generally made to pay for breaking the law of the land,(Thackeray lost his right to vote), news reports show Pakistani civilians being killed in missile attacks on Afghan training camps, captured and imprisoned in Afghanistan by Taliban`s opponents, killed in Kashmir, blamed by Russia for trouble in Chechnya, openly holding rallies and collecting funds in Pakistan for armed battles outside Pakistan.

I think Pakistanis ought stop being ambiguous about these `ambassadors-at-large` who are jeopardizing the future of their own countrymen. I think the fate of the mothers of future Pakistanis demands it, at the very least.

It will also be beneficial for Pakistan to learn to distinguish between those who derive their power largely from narcotics and arms(and pass it off as Islam)with no constitutional restraints and those who are fairly elected under the scrutiny of the rule of law and democratic checks and balances and who have never been allowed to assume the role of authority on religious matters.

Sadhana

COMPARING PAKISTAN AND INDIA

The following is a beautiful ending of a post by Umair about BJP.

``The BJP will explore all consensual, legal and constitutional means to facilitate the construction of Shri Ram Mandir at Ayodhya.``

Great, now will you post what eigth amendment did to to the hindus of pakistan. That is what the constitutional means that BJP is talking about.

It appears that pakistanis know so much about babri masjid, than the living constitutional yoke under which the hindus live in Pakistan.

It is amusing that none of the quoting specialists dont want to quote their own constitution.

the happy one

hullo bobby (the happy one?!). i`ve lost your address, write to me at aakarpatel@hotmail.

warden ni ma no piko.

cheers.

Amit reply 361: You stated, ``I cannot understand what exactly is Pakistan`s policy in Kashmir.`` Pakistan has had very unbalanced, and disorganized political policies. This is not only true in relation to Kashmir, but it is true for basically all areas.

The reason for this is simple. Pakistan has always had extremely corrupt and incompotent political leaderships. Their aim has been to stay in power, by hook or by crook. The moment they get out of power they end up in the slammer, because their are many corruption cases in which they are involved. Because of this, the political leaders make spur of the moment decisions to satisfy whomever they seem most threatened by at the moment. This leads to a very inconsistent national and foreign policy. I will give you some examples in case of NS.

NS gave the approval for the logistics and initial build up for the Kargil operation (those who claim that he had nothing to do with it have no idea how the commmand and control system of the military works). He then invited Vajpayee for a Lahore summit. He should have done one or the other, but to do both was extremely illogical. He then unilaterally withdrew from Kargil, after Paksitan had achieved tactical advantages. This has never happened between India and Pakistan, or anywhere else. Once tactical advantages have been achieved, there are always bilateral withdrawls, never one-sided withdrawls. If he was going to do this, then what was the point of approving the operation in the first place. Why get so many people killed, and throw Pakistan into such a vulnerable future. He did this not on his own, but after meeting with Clinton. Why not just do it on your own. Immediately after withdrawing, he made a speech that Kashmir would become a part of Pakistan. All inconsistent actions.

NS made a speech that he would introduce Taliban style justice in Pakistan. He then went to America, and came back and started denouncing the Taliban. Again inconsistency. Do one or the other.

There are many more cases like this. The inconsistencies occur because the Pakistani political leadership wants to satisfy what they perceive to be the immediate threat to their personal futures, with no regard for its long term effect on Pakistan. The threats could be any of the following: US cutoff of finances through IMF, the Supreme Court of Pakistan, the vocal religious parties, traders, opposition parties etc.

AI reply 373: It is very essential for all countries to get into the IT industry. The IT revolution is a great opportunity for countries which missed out on the industrial revolution. These countries can to some extent relatively level the playing field vis-a-vis industrialized nations. On the other hand if the countries that missed out on the industrial revolution miss out on the IT revolution also, then they will fall even furthur behind than they are right now.

Your suggestion, ``One of the ideas going round in Pakistan is that we should shut down our industry and all go into the software business.`` is in the right direction, however too extreme in my opinion. The IT industry needs to be developed side by side with other industries. As you mentioned the two main factors required are trained manpower, and infrastructure (physical and financial). Pakistan currently lacks both, although there is a lot of untapped potential. Pakistan sends the 5th highest no. of software engineers to the USA after India, China, Canada, and Mexico/Phillipines.

BJP (cont`d): These are the exact quotes from the www.bjp.org.promi.htm: I would greatly appreciate it if someone from India could explain these. I am trying to figure out how India can claim to be secular, when it votes again and again for the BJP. The more I read into the BJP manifesto, and philosophy, the more I conclude that the BJP is as extremist as some of the very extreme religious parties in Pakistan (none of whom ever win a seat). My aim is not to diminish the ideas of the Indian voter. If Indian wants to elect the BJP, I am no one to complain. I only want to understand why Indians continue to label Pakistanis as, ``jehadis`` when they themselves vote for a Hindu nationalist party. And how can India claim to be secular under a party like the BJP? Also why does India want to project itself as secular externally, when the election results clearly indicate that internally Indians want to identify themselves as a Hindu nation? These questions are not only limited to the context of the Ram temple, but refer to the overall BJP manifesto and philosophy. Any comments will be appreciated.

``The BJP is convinced that Hindutva has immense potentiality to re-energize this nation and strengthen and discipline it to undertake the arduous task of nation-building. This can and does trigger a higher level of patriotism that can transform the country to greater levels of efficiency and performance. It is with such integrative ideas in mind, the BJP joined the Ram Janmabhoomi movement for the construction of Shri Ram Mandir at Ayodhya. This greatest mass movement in post-Independence history reoriented the disoriented polity in India and strengthened the foundation of cultural nationalism.

The BJP is committed to facilitate the construction of a magnificent Shri Ram Mandir at Ram Janmasthan in Ayodhya where a makeshift temple already exists. Shri Ram lies at the core of Indian consciousness. The BJP will explore all consensual, legal and constitutional means to facilitate the construction of Shri Ram Mandir at Ayodhya.`` (www.bjp.org/manifes/chap2.htm)

Re: Rachna #385.

{Never fall in the linguistic trap of expressions eg., ``POK``. These are deliberately set up. The psychology of language is a more potent weapon in the hands of your tormentors than tanks, guns and atomic bombs.

You do not have control over their subversive tactics but at least you can use editorial tools to blunt the wickedry.}

??!!!!?

You actually think I `deliberately set up a linguistic trap`! You perceive me as some kind of a `wicked` guy hunched over my keyboard `tormenting` people all day long with my `potent psychology of language`. Don`t you?

Ma`am you must have suffered great and long to think this way! My sincere sympathies.

Please have a safe trip to `Azad Kashmir` and back. My apologies to have referred to it as POK My careless utterance might have rudely awakened you to the slim possibility that there might be a mass of humanity out there whose opinion actually differs from yours.

Humble regards,

Happy

I read the following in THE NEWS, Pakistan. I need to find out whether it is genuine, and find out exactly what is happening.

``NEW DELHI: India`s parliament had to be adjourned twice on Monday, as the seventh anniversary of the demolition of the historic Babri mosque triggered angry exchanges in the lower house and demonstrations across the country.``

Is the anniversary being held to protest against the destruction of the mosque? Or is the anniversary being held to celebrate the destruction of the mosque? I hope it is not the later. What is the BJP`s view on this? Their philosophy on their official website indicates that they consider the tearing down of the mosque one of their prime achievements. How does all this fit into a secular India? Any inputs from anyone in India will be appreciated.

EX.

/ Dec-6-99 -3:58:0 PST Reply #: 375

Umairr

happy one Reply 348: You stated, ``The demographic in POK (Azad Kashmir or

whateverelseyumacallit) has been altered beyond recognition!`` The demographics have changed, but... .//



Umairr#375

``The demographic(sic) in [Azad Kashmir] has been altered ... .``

Never fall in the linguistic trap of expressions eg., ``POK``. These are deliberately set up. The psychology of language is a more potent weapon in the hands of your tormentors than tanks, guns and atomic bombs.

You do not have control over their subversive tactics but at least you can use editorial tools to blunt the wickedry.

N.B. I am going to central Neelam Valley, Azad Kashmir, and I shall be without the benefit of my computer and the Net there. I am taking a vacation. So, I hope to get away from this noise.

Talk to you next May.

Sincerely,

Rachna

N.B. 2 No, the demographics, in terms of quantum of non-native born population, have //not// changed the way they have in Jammu, or for that matter, in parts other than the valley of Kashmir.

/ Dec-6-99 -3:58:0 PST Reply #: 375

Umairr

happy one Reply 348: You stated, ``The demographic in POK (Azad Kashmir or

whateverelseyumacallit) has been altered beyond recognition!`` The demographics have changed, but... .//



Umairr#375

``The demographic(sic) in [Azad Kashmir] has been altered ... .``

Never fall in the linguistic trap of expressions eg., ``POK``. These are deliberately set up. The psychology of language is a more potent weapon in the hands of your tormentors than tanks, guns and atomic bombs.

You do not have control over their subversive tactics but at least you can use editorial tools to blunt the wickedry.

N.B. I am going to central Neelam Valley, Azad Kashmir, and I shall be without the benefit of my computer and the Net there. I am taking a vacation. So, I hope to get away from this noise.

Talk to you next May.

Sincerely,

Rachna

N.B. 2 No, the demographics, in terms of quantum of non-native born population, have //not// changed the way they have in Jammu, or for that matter, in parts other than the valley of Kashmir.

Chowkwallahs,

Reply #378 is posted under my name yet the real author has signed his name after the text of this message. What gives? I do NOT advocate, even in jest, legalization of cocaine.

Can you fic this?

To Aakar Patel:

Alaa Aakar!

Hoo to taaro joono langotiyo Bobbydo! Funny a couple of roommates from 8 years ago should meet each other like this huh??

Wow!

:)

Re: Umairr # 375

{ The demographics (in POK) have changed, but not nearly beyond recognition. That is an overstatement. }

I don`t have any first hand observation regarding this, you claim you do and therefore I will take your word for it. But I still think that any alteration whatsoever will have an affect on the outcome.

{ The valley of Kashmir (which is really the only place where the vote will be crucial), has always had a Muslim majority, and still has a Muslim majority. }

Of course! But the magnitude of the majority has increased and surely that`ll have an affect on the outcome of the plebiscite! And your implication is that for eternity in Hindu or Buddhist majority areas the sentiment is decidedly pro-India and the converse holds true in Muslim majority areas. I would not jump to such conclusions. And BTW does this mean that Pakistan should give up all claims to areas of Jammu & Kashmir with non Muslim majority? Am I mistaken or did the wretched TNT not drown in the Bay of Bengal in 1971?

{By the way, are you suggesting that if a vote had been held in 1947, the Kashmiris in the valley would have voted differently than they will vote now? If your answer to this is, ``yes`` then India should have held a vote at that time. If your answer is, ``no,`` then there is nothing wrong with a vote now}

Yes! the kashmiris in the valley would have voted differently then than now. Simply because the `Kashmiris` (and I do believe that includes people of all faiths) in the valley then were a different group of people than now! Thousands have come & thousands have gone from the valley. But that`s not at all the point I am trying to make here.

All I am saying is that the demographics have been altered significantly to render a plebiscite invalid. You cant have a vote restricted to people currently in the valley, you have to exclude people who were moved in and include people who were driven out. The logistics of asking people to prove their Kashmiri domicile are mind boggling. There is so much scope of foul play that no one will be satisfied. If the situation does improve in the future and India does agree to some kind of a referendum, god forbid if it went to India`s favor we will all hear of how Biharis were loaded up in trucks in Delhi and cast their votes as refugees. Similarly if it went to Pakistan, do you not think that Indians will be suspicious of who voted on the other side?

A few years ago, the Pakistani delegation at the UN was making a presentation to the security council to pass a resolution on Kashmir. A lady from the Pakistani side got up and started to eloquently describe the plight of her fellow Kashmiris. Farooq Abdullah saab who was at that instant contemplating the merits of choosing a 7 iron on a left dogleg with 160 yards to bunker fronted green woke up from his ruminations and addressed the lady directly in Kashmiri. The lady froze like a deer in headlights because she didn`t speak the language! There is much mistrust on either side my man!

{In the end, the people of the land have to decide what they want to do. I do not believe in solutions that do not involve the people of the land.}

I don`t think you`ll find many people in disagreement on this account. Kashmiri representation is vital to any dialogue. But a majority wins vote now is not going to provide a solution. Indians believe that Kashmir is legally & constitutionally theirs. Now after 50 years demographic alteration if the remaining people in the valley vote to break away and keep the pundits out, India will be justifiable peeved.

Over the years due to various reasons, the white population in Harlem has gone down to practically zero. If African Americans decide in a referendum that the want Harlem to be a separate country, do you think the US will agree because that`s what people in that certain area want?

{Do you have any better ideas. If you do, please state them. An ideal perfect solution to this problem will never be found. A somewhat ideal solution is better than no solution. The only alternative is to continue fighting.}

I don`t claim to have a solution that I have devised. Most of what I`ve learnt about this has been from you good folks at Chowk. But I have come across many many creative proposals here that recognize the futility of a majority wins plebiscite. How many times will one have to hear a Pakistani demand a Plebiscite? And how many times will one have to hear Indians retort `Withdraw from POK first`?

like I said before. It is extremely unlikely that a plebiscite will happen. And even if it did it wont be fair.

Umairr:

UN forces in Kashmir: The first to object would be the Islamic brethren of Osama Bin Laden types on whose support the Pakistani Army counts internally and externally. The bombings in Saudi Arabia will be nothing compared to what will happen in Kashmir (where the logistics of controlling radicals are much more difficult due to the mountainous terrain). The radicals will consider it the thin edge of the Western wedge against their so-called `Islamic` operations and they will be right.

The utility of airfields and military installations in Kashmir for pursuit of the West`s strategic objectives in Asia will be unsurpassed by anything in their grasp presently and a true Godsend for greater control over the region including China. They would never leave even after 50 years. Now, is it realistic to assume that India would consider it a good solution to make such a drastic change in the strategic balance of the region(and expose its own installations to possible close monitoring by the West), that too, as a prize awarded for terrorism? Such a solution would find little approval either in the Indian Lok Sabha or the Indian public.

Sadhana