Again, Desperate Times

Ref Fuzair #: 434

The issue on paramountcy seems to be boiling down to: did India and Pakistan have a right to force the princely states to accede to either dominion. Tell me where force was used. My answer, from all the books I have read, is Junagadh, Kashmir and Hyderabad. Out of this, India used force in Junagadh and Hyderabad and took over both states successfully whereas Pakistan tried it in Kashmir and failed to achieve completely its objective. So, are you asking that these states should have been granted independence? Or, is it a question of sour grapes?

You say {Many Pakistanis swear that there were maps showing Gurdaspur etc. in Pakistan. James`s is the first independent corroboration I`ve seen of this.}

Actually, Hodson mentions this. The first draft boundary delineation was sent to the military authorities and the response was a cryptic telegram that said ``Eliminate salient``. The Gurdaspur district was a salient into India and offered no defensible boundary. The suggestion was that the Ravi river would be a more appropriate natural border, and at least during flood stage, a defensible boundary.

I wonder why no Pakistani mentions the fact that they got the Sikh majority Montgomery district but keep harping on Muslim majority Gurdaspur going to India. In the final analysis, the Hindu/Sikh population of Pakistan was exchanged for the Muslim population of East Punjab so Gurdaspur is insignificant.

The canard is that Gurdaspur was given to India so that there would be a road link to Kashmir from India. All the roads into Kashmir were from Pakistani territory and Kashmir in fact protested to Pakistan about the stopping of civil supplies in violation of the standstill agreement that Pakistan had signed with Kashmir. If there was a road link to India through Gurdaspur, why didn’t Kashmir get its supply of food and fuel from India? What was the point in raising the issue with Pakistan at all? Also, why did India have to airlift its troops to Kashmir if there was a road into Kashmir from East Punjab?

Why don’t you check old ordnance maps of Punjab to see if in fact any road existed from India into Kashmir in 1947?

But then, nursing a grievance for 52 years is good for the Pak Army and moaning and writhing in self-pity keeps even the educated Pakistanis from questioning the ``facts`` they are fed in their history books.

You ask { And hasn`t India always tried to take the legalo-moralic (Hey! Coining new terms here!) high ground and sneered at us Pakistanis for our many coups and umpteen constitutions?}

I fully agree. Haven’t I characterized the Government of India as being sanctimonious? They need to inject some realism in their rhetoric and tell the world that they intend to take any action that is in India’s interests no matter what the world thinks. Why do you think the BJP is drawing support from the Indian population for its actions on the nuke and missile tests?

But the need to lecture Pakistan seems to be in the blood of Indians and cannot be simply wished away. Just look at some of the post-ers here!

Regarding the Cabinet Plan for federations of Group A and Group B provinces and a weak confederation at the center with a 10-year opt-out plan, if Pakistan had opted out 10 years later, it would have gotten a united Punjab and a united Bengal and then expelled its minorities where as India would still be stuck with its minorities. If Jinnah wanted Pakistan badly, Sardar Patel was determined to give it to him badly. As they say, be careful what you wish for; you might actually get it.

I do agree that the Congress was responsible for rejecting the Cabinet Plan but at least it worked out for India and for the Congress Party.



Regarding the use of the Indian Army to keep the Empire intact after 1947, you would be looking at several Jallianwallabaghs and the British public had no stomach for it. After all, the Army could not/would not suppress the communal riots of 1946 or during the Partition. So, while it is theoretically possible for the British to have stayed on, it was not a practical option.



Regarding India’s industrialization under the British, the British put every impediment in front of Tata Steel and would not buy rails from it for the railroads. The one shipping company started in south India by a local patriot was forced into bankruptcy and its founder jailed for 10 years under charges of sedition. The major textile mills were owned by the British. The three oil refineries were Caltex, Burmah Oil Company and Standard Oil… American or British owned. There was no incentive to industrialize India except that, during WWII, some ordnance factories were set up in India to ensure supplies for the war in the Far East.

The primary reason the US was pressing for India’s independence during WWII (read about Churchill’s meetings with Roosevelt) was that it would open up the Indian market to American products. That tells you how tightly Britain controlled India and other colonies.

You say {This can go on forever. So, I propose that we agree to disagree and move on to another topic. We could join the other discussion thats going on, the one about Kashmir.}

I do enjoy replying with facts to opinions.

I did submit an article to the Chowk but they have refused to publish it so far. I was hoping that article would push Omar1974 over the edge. He was frothing at the mouth during the nuke tests but his new-found friend Johnnie Walker seems to have calmed him down a bit!

Regards.

BUREAUCRATIC UNTOUCHABILITY

- The civil bureaucracy remains untouched by the regime irrespective the large sums expropriated by civil servants. As I stated earlier the military bureaucracy has very strong linkages in the civil bureaucracy. Three brothers in the civil service and two in the military. Any representation in the private business sectory is more a front man for legitimizing bribe money.

- The estimated 30 billion plus outside the country assumed to be transferred from Pakistan is in all probability money being taken out by bureaucrats. Very curiously the regime has targeted the private sector - and tried to present the loan defaulter as the cause for all the economic ailments. Once again the actual core commerical default does not really exceed the Rs 70 billion (Rupees !. The ministry of production alone defaults to the tune of Rs 150 billion per annum.

- So far as the bank are concerned and I am talking about the so called reformist managements: they are largely run by children of civil servants with prejudices typical of babus from the class they come from. Corruption and bribery is rampant among them inspite of 6 and 7 figure salaries and other perks normally given expatriates. The Habib Bank management, investigated in the waning days of the Sharif regime has been found to be involved in major scams. The present regime finds itself unable to move in redressing the situation. Here is group of incompetent scoundrels that are responsible for wrecking an economy is continuing to run riot

and unchecked.

- In regard to the recovery process: 8 to 12 billion rupees has be ``recovered`` and the economy made to contract by a solid 40-50 billion rupees. The extent of the propaganda campaign, initiatlly initiated by the banks, and picked on by the military regime is evidenced by the fact that the broad majority of Pakistanis - even the educated ones overseas - think that loan default is a major cause of our troubles. Very conveniently the problem of the federal deficit is ignored.

Amit: Am I correct in concluding from your remarks that both the BJP and Congress represent the upper class of India? One represents the upper class religious groups, while the other represents the upper class business groups. If that is the case, then who represents the educated middle class. India has perhaps the biggest or second biggest educated middle class (relatively speaking) in the world. Are they represented by the regional parties? If they are, and if their influence is increasing, as you have stated, then is it possible that the political competition in India will soon turn into a multi-party race? BJP, Congress, and a few other regional parties, all with potentially the same amount of seats in the Parliament. This is really one of the drawbacks of parliamentary form of govts., in my opinion. It is vulnerable to a multi-party race, since it becomes impossible for one party to form a govt. Which party do you see in the future (lets say ten to fifteen years from now) dominating Indian politics?

Something else I have been wondering about. 46% of the foreign work visas in the US are given to Indians. Which social group of India do these guys fall into? Are the financially middle class, upper class, a mixture etc? And can one consider the Indian comp. scientists in America, a correct demographic representation of the Indian middle and upper class?

Re: Amit #469

Um,not quite. Pre-1947 industrialization in India had two great impetuses, WWI and WWII. The major one was of course WWII. Far from not even manufacturing a needle, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited--the HAL of Mig21 and Light Combat Aircraft fame--was set up in, I believe, 1941 or 1942. It did not just assemble aircraft from CKD kits but also manufactured some components. The idea was progressive deletion of foreign manufactured components. India was also assembling/manufacturing automobiles before WWII.

You are certainly correct when you say that the major push came after Partition. The government deliberately took the lead in promoting industrialization for two main reasons. First was the (erroneous of course) example of the USSR which seemed to show that industrialization could be pushed through at record pace and on government mobilization of resources. Second was Nehru`s Fabian socialist tendencies which demanded government control of a large section of the industrial sector.

However, it is a complete myth, nationalist fantasy, that the British deliberately suppressed industrial development in India. They were certainly indifferent to it and considered it near bottom on their list of priorities for a long time, but that is not the same as actively suppressing it. This myth ranks at par with the fantasy of Bengali historians that the British prevented the Industrial Revolution in 18th century Bengal because they were afraid of competition.

Regards.

RE: Reply #: 468

Umairr

``if I ever believed that such a thing was happening in Kashmir, I would be the first to call for outright Kashmiri independence and I am sure most Indians would too).`` It is good to hear you say this. Instead of giving my own opinion (which you may consider biased), I would like to point you to www.amnesty-usa.org, and to http://www.hrw.org/ (Amnesty International, and Human Rights watch).``

Dear Umairr,

My statement has been taken out of context. It was made to compare the atrocities commited by the Pakistani army in Bangladesh in 1971 and what the India security forces are doing in Kashmir. I am not denying that the Indian security forces are implementing harsh measures in Kashmir and have used excessive force sometimes. I welcome the oversight of Human Rights forces in Kashmir to reduce such abuses since I believe that the higher principle that India is trying to uphold in Kashmir should be kept in the forefront (viz., total and absolute defeat of the same gang which is currently holding Pakistan hostage for their own nefarious ends).

AMIT # 469

Your comparison of Indian and Pakistani economies is excellent and very fair, as you stated:



``As far as comparison with Pakistani economy is concerned, Pakistan has always had the benefit of a lower population. India had to deal with the expectations of a huge population. If you look at the western states of India like Punjab, Gujarat, Maharashtra and southern states, their per capita economic numbers are better than Pakistan`s. These states have a lesser population problem as compared to UP, Bihar and the eastern states. Thoese latter states really pull down India`s overall numbers due to various problems like massive population, semi-feudal situation in UP/Bihar, regressive marxism in Bengal etc. I would think Pakistan`s economic woes are a combination of a very high population growth rate and extreme corruption in the past few years. India has succeeded in lowering its population growth rate and that is also helping``.

I would like to add few more points.

1) The population of India and Pakistan were comparable on people per square kilometer basis, before 1971 separation of East Pakistan and excluding sparcely populated Baluchistan.

2)Due to the socialistic policies of Nehru, the electrification and mechanization of agriculture came to the Indian villages earlier than the villages of Pakistan, resulting in the larger contribution of Indian rural class in the overall economy.

3) The distribution of wealth is more evenly in the western Indian States as compared to Pakistan.

4) In the area of availability and affordability of the basic necessities of life as measured by PPP (Prducer Price Parity), and not GNP or GDP, Pakistan is overall more prosperous. This is mainly due to one reason, i.e., parallel ( or black) economy. Pakistan`s parallel economy is much larger as a percent of GDP than Indian parallel economy. In the village economy, the artesan classes mostly trade their products directly for grain bypassing the hard currency with no taxes on either ends, thus mutually benefiting to both parties.

At present, future looks brighter for Indian economy than Pakistani economy. However, in my opinion, any staunch leftist allaiance coming to power in India can easily derail the current growth.

Re:Umairr#467

Dear Umair,

You are quite right about the socialistic policies of the Congress party being responsible for the slow growth rate in India. In fact, this has been termed as the ``hindu`` rate of growth in the past. I do believe that at first centralized planning was necessary, simply because India was a total basket case when the British left. Who had the money to invest in steel mills or hydroelectric plants ? We could barely manufacture needles, let alone automobiles. The centralized planning gave India its industrial base and it also resulted in superior educational institutions. However, somewhere along the way, in typical desi fashion, a good idea got converted into a dogma. By the late eighties, the economic situation had declined drastically and our standard of living was pathetic, as compared to the industrialized world. It was impossible to open a business anywhere and a bunch of crony capitalists like the Birlas controlled the entire private sector.

Since the early nineties, the policy of economic liberalization has unleashed the economic potential of India. Indians are a very enterprising people and given the right environment, they can work wonders. This has started happening in India and it is rapidly accelerating. Interestingly minorities such as muslims are also benefiting strongly from this boom and they are entering the middle class in large numbers. In fact, the buzz word among muslims in India is ``taleem`` or education and the Urdu press routinely gives celebrity style coverage to successful muslim students.

As far as comparison with Pakistani economy is concerned, Pakistan has always had the benefit of a lower population. India had to deal with the expectations of a huge population. If you look at the western states of India like Punjab, Gujarat, Maharashtra and southern states, their per capita economic numbers are better than Pakistan`s. These states have a lesser population problem as compared to UP, Bihar and the eastern states. Thoese latter states really pull down India`s overall numbers due to various problems like massive population, semi-feudal situation in UP/Bihar, regressive marxism in Bengal etc. I would think Pakistan`s economic woes are a combination of a very high population growth rate and extreme corruption in the past few years. India has succeeded in lowering its population growth rate and that is also helping.

You want to discuss Kashmir. Here is something to discuss further.

Found elsewhere on the net



posted 12-11-1999 12:02

Kashmiri Widows Wallow In Poverty by Krishnan Guruswamy

They’re pushed aside by their in-laws, shunned by neighbours, exploited by employers and harassed by security officers. They are Kashmir’s ``half-widows,`` some 2,000 women whose husbands never returned home after security forces took them away for questioning as

suspected separatists. Only hope keeps the women going. Hope that their husbands - and also sons - will come back one day. Under Islamic law, a woman can remarry four years after her husband disappears if sustained efforts have been made to find him. In practice, the women don’t want to remarry. ``They keep hoping that their husbands will come back,`` says Bashir Ahmad Dabla, a sociology professor who surveyed Kashmir’s half-widows earlier this year.

Parveen Angher, a human rights activist, has helped poor Muslim women file lawsuits seeking help from India’s government. ``They have no source of income. Their children

usually don’t go to school. The women are in poor health. They mostly wait and weep,`` she says. Angher founded the Association of Parents of Disappeared Persons after police picked up her 15-year-old son nine years ago. He never came home. In 1989, an insurrection erupted in the Kashmir Valley, a Muslim-majority area that wants to break away from India, which is predominantly Hindu. The guerrilla war has killed thousands of civilians, militants, police, army and paramilitary officers. Security forces have special powers to detain anyone without giving reasons.

Zainam, a half-widow who like others asked to be identified only by her first name, says she hasn’t seen her husband since soldiers stormed her house one night three years ago. ``They beat my husband for two hours. He was screaming all the time. Then we didn’t hear

anything. The soldiers left. We went upstairs. He was not there. ... We never saw him again,`` she says. The illiterate mother of three children says she has visited dozens of army camps and police stations looking for her husband, who was a government gardener. ``We used to hear from villagers that he is here or there. We could never find him,`` says Zainam, who looks far older than her 30 years. She never went to school, like most women in this male-dominated Muslim region. She lives in her husband’s extended family. She is weak from anemia and suffers from high blood pressure. Her eldest daughter has leucoderma, a skin condition marked by white irregular patches. Zainam has no money for medicine.

Rafiqua, another of the half-widows, says her in-laws sent her back to her parents a few months ago after complaining about the 10,000 rupees (dlrs 230) they spent looking for her husband. He was picked up by security forces in 1996. Rafiqua says she worked from dawn

to dusk for her in-laws. ``They wouldn’t even buy me soap.`` Now they want her back again. ``I’m like a servant in their house. But what can I do? I can’t go on living with my parents. They have other children to look after,`` says Rafiqua, a mother of four at age 25. Her son, Faisal, 5, sits beside her quietly through the interview. ``He is always quiet,`` she says. ``The doctor said, ‘Don’t let him see people crying.’ He is always depressed.`` The half-widows and their children all show symptoms of depression. Most of the women have heart ailments, says Dabla, the sociologist. ``The condition of the half-widows is worse than that of widows. They don’t know if their husbands are dead or alive,`` Dabla says. ``In Islamic society, women have few rights. These women are mostly illiterate and unemployable.`` Dabla found children whose fathers disappeared have dropped out of school and developed minor criminal

behaviour. ``The authority structure at home collapsed. The children especially develop a

revenge psyche``.

In an attempt to pressure the government into admitting the missing men were killed and to pay compensation to the families, human rights lawyer Parvez Imroz is helping 300

half-widows pursue lawsuits demanding that security forces produce the missing men in court. The cases have dragged on, sometimes for 10 years, says Imroz, who pleads the cases free of cost. Imroz wants the government to pay the same 150,000 rupees (dlrs 3,500) it pays to relatives of people acknowledged to have been killed by security forces.

Police and security forces rarely admit they picked up the missing men. When there is evidence officers did, officials say the men were released. The head of the Jammu-Kashmir

Human Rights Commission, Ghulam Ahmed Kuchchai, says he will insist the government pay

compensation even if it has no information about the whereabouts of the missing men. The commission, set up by the government in August 1997, is examining more than 300 complaints of human rights abuses in Kashmir. It has no powers to punish anyone, but its recommendations are binding on the government.

iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

posted 12-11-1999 13:57

Certainly a disturbing & frightening account of life in Kashmir. What is the solution ? We have become immune to the suffering. The simple & short sighted solution would be to give money or send your used clothes hoping that would frighten the hindu terrorists or even worse petition the UN hoping that they would do something..........

kgeorge

Readers Forum

Human Rights India must respect Minorities basic rights



Topic: India must respect Minorities basic rights



posted 12-10-1999 09:53

A press report on abysmal Indian record on Human Rights.

I would welcome discussion from Indian friends on this forum. I hope instead of citing familiar excuses they would add something constructive on how to improve life of oppressed

minorities in India.

The report said, ``Indian security forces in Jammu and Kashmir continued to violate human rights with impunity. The Jammu and Kashmir Disturbed Areas Act and the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, which authorize warrantless searches and arrests, remained in effect in the state. Military-led cordon-and-search operations in Muslim neighborhoods continued to result in violations of fundamental civil rights, including the detention, torture, and summary executions of suspected militants.``

The report said, ``the Hindu nationalist Indian People`s Party (BJP), which led India`s coalition government during the year, appeared to condone the activities of right-wing Hindu groups responsible for attacks on religious minorities and people at the bottom of or outside India`s caste system, including members of tribal groups. The attacks increased significantly in the

months preceding national parliamentary elections in September and October.

``In Bihar, a series of caste clashes and massacres between January and April once again revealed the unwillingness of state authorities to protect the rights of those born into lower castes. The commission also ordered the payment of compensation to the families of persons who had either died as a result of police violence or had been physically assaulted by the police, and recommended action against guilty police officials.``

The report observed that in February, Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee`s bus trip across the Indo-Pakistan border to meet the then Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif seemed to signal the beginnings of a reconciliation and hopes for a resolution of the Kashmir conflict. However, those hopes were short-lived. In April India tested ballistic missiles and Pakistan followed suit. In May, after Muslim fighters crossed from Pakistan into Indian

Kashmir near the town of Kargil, India responded with military operations against them and their Pakistani backers.

Armed clashes between India and Pakistan continued for the next eight weeks, until

Pakistan agreed to withdraw the militants, and both countries agreed on a process of `disengagement.`

In the course of those clashes, over 1,200 people, many of them civilians, were killed by artillery fire. Civilians were also forced to flee the towns along the 720-kilometre border that divides Indian ...controlled and [Azad] Kashmir. Communal violence between Hindu and Muslim groups escalated during the military confrontation, particularly in Jammu, the

Hindu-majority area of the state of Jammu and Kashmir.

Observing that ``Caste violence assumed alarming dimensions early in the year, particularly in the state of Bihar, where clashes between the Ranvir Sena, an upper-caste landlord

militia, and Naxalites, Maoist guerillas agitating for higher wages and more equitable land

distribution for lower-caste labourers, claimed many lives, the Human Rights activists charged the state administration with criminal negligence for failing to intervene effectively and prosecute those responsible for the killings. On Jan 25, about 100 armed extremists from the Ranvir Sena killed at least 22 Dalit (untouchable) men, women, and children in Bihar`s Jehanabad district. On February 10, Sena members struck again in the same district killing eleven Dalits as they slept.``

The massacres led the government in New Delhi to impose ``president`s rule`` in Bihar, a legal regime whereby the central government takes over authority from the state. Despite that

measure, which led to the increased presence of paramilitary forces in the state, 12 alleged

supporters of the Ranvir Sena were reportedly gunned down on February 14 by Communist Party of India-Marxist Leninist (Liberation) activists in retaliation for the January killings. In early March the central government reinstated the state government led by Chief Minister Rabri Devi. On March 18, Naxalites killed another 35 upper-caste villagers in Senari village, Jehanabad district. On April 21, about 100 armed activists from the Ranvir Sena killed 12 lower-caste villagers in neighbouring villages in Gaya district.

The victims included a 65-year-old man, three women, and a 9-month-old child. Police made little effort to prevent the killings, despite the fact that the Ranvir Sena often publicly announced its intentions days before each attack. They also failed to provide protection for

villagers in the aftermath of such attacks.

Caste clashes also continued to plague the southern state of Tamil Nadu, and Dalit women were primary targets. On March 29, in the Ogalur-Villupuram region of Tamil Nadu, four upper- caste men sexually assaulted a female Dalit farm labourer. The attackers were then beaten by those responding to the labourer`s cry for help. On April 3, in retaliation for the beatings, three upper-caste men set fire to a Dalit colony, injuring 20 people. On June 19 a gang of upper-caste Hindus looted and destroyed the houses in a Dalit settlement in Kodankipatti village, Madurai district, after Dalits there had demanded a share in the common property of the village. The Dalits were then chased out of their homes.

On the plight of India`s Christain community, the HRW said, ``more incidents of violence against India`s Christian community were recorded during the past two years than in all the

years since independence. Attacks occurred primarily in the tribal regions of Gujarat, Madhya

Pradesh, and Orissa, as well as the state of Maharashtra. Activists belonging to militant Hindu extremist groups, including the Bajrang Dal and the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (World Hindu Council, VHP) were often blamed for the violence.

While the central government officially condemned the attacks, spokespersons for the BJP characterized the surge in violence as a reaction to a conversion campaign by Christian

missionaries in the country. Anti-Christian violence in the state of Gujarat reached its peak

during Christmas week 1998 when a local extremist Hindu group obtained permission to hold a rally on Dec 25 in Ahwa town in the state`s southeastern Dangs district. Over 4000 people participated in the rally, shouting anti-Christian slogans while the police stood by and watched. After the rally, Hindu groups began to attack Christian places of worship, schools run by missionaries, and shops owned by Christians and Muslims. Between December 25, 1998, and January 3, 1999, churches and prayer halls were damaged, attacked, or burned down in at least 25 different villages in the state.

On January 23 in Keonjhar district, Orissa, a mob of Hindu extremists burned to death

Australian missionary Graham Stewart Staines and his two sons as they slept in their car.

Staines had worked for over 30 years in a leper colony in the state and was accused of conducting mass conversions to Christianity. In August a government-appointed judicial commission accused Bajrang Dal activist and BJP member Dara Singh of leading the charge in the killings. The commission`s report also found that Staines had not been involved in any conversions.

On Shiv Sena`s role in its campaign against the Muslims, the HRW said, ``the Shiv Sena, a Hindu party which heads the state government of Maharashtra in coalition with the BJP, also engaged in disruptive practices and hate campaigns against Muslims and Christians throughout the year. In December 1998, the award-winning film `Fire` by director Deepa Mehta, was recalled from theatres after Shiv Sena activists vandalized at least 15 cinemas where it was being screened. Sena members objected to the film`s depiction of a lesbian relationship between two Hindu sisters-in-law, adding that had the women been Muslim there would be no objection.

In January 1999, when Pakistan`s cricket team was set to travel to India for a series of test matches, members of the Shiv Sena dug up the pitch at a New Delhi stadium that was to host the first match and ransacked the headquarters of the Board of Control for Cricket in Bombay. In June, the Shiv Sena launched a series of attacks against Christian mission- run

kindergarten schools alleging that they were not admitting the children of Sena activists.

On June 26 suspected Sena members vandalized the Sacred Heart school in Worli, Bombay.``

On August 26 Staines` killer Dara Singh struck again, when he led an angry mob to attack the garment shop of Sheikh Rehman, a Muslim trader in Orissa`s Mayurbhanj district. In the

presence of 400 eyewitnesses and in broad daylight, Rehman`s arms were chopped and his

body was set on fire. Singh continued to evade arrest despite his numerous television appearances in the months following the Staines murder. One week later, on September 2, the Rev. Arul Doss was killed by a gang of 15 unidentified assailants. Voting in Orissa for the staggered general elections was scheduled for September 25. On September 20, a Catholic nun in Bihar was abducted by two men, stripped, and forced to drink their urine. The nun was reportedly interrogated about her proselytizing activities.

On violence during the elections the HRW said ``Violence remained a salient feature of India`s national parliamentary elections. During five stages of polling in September and October 1999, repolling was ordered for hundreds of poll stations as a result of violence and the

destruction of ballot papers and ballot boxes. Well over 100 election-related deaths were

reported throughout the country, predominantly in Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh, Kashmir, Bihar, and the northeast region of Assam and Tripura.

In the Chidambaram constituency of Tamil Nadu, Dalits were not allowed to vote in as many as 23 villages as a result of attacks by political parties contesting elections in which the Dalit Panthers of India were also candidates. In clashes that ensued, nearly ten Dalit hamlets

were torched. While over 200 Dalits were arrested, police refused to register cases against caste Hindus.

Police in Andhra Pradesh continued to summarily execute suspected Naxalites in so-called ``encounter killings.`` Violence in the northeastern states, particularly Assam, continued

throughout the year, claiming many civilian casualties.

The Armed Forces Special Powers Act remained in effect in the northeast, but it was not the only abusive law on the books. Due to the spurious backdating of violations, detentions

under the notorious Terrorist and Disruptive Practices (Prevention) Act (TADA) continued for

offences allegedly committed before the law lapsed in 1995. In Karnataka, for example, 52 people remained in pre-trial detention in Mysore Central Prison for periods ranging from four to six years.

On the issue of violation of women`s rights the HRW noted ``women, particularly those belonging to the lower castes, continued to be victims of violence and sexual abuse. ... .``

tvarad: reply 416: ``if I ever believed that such a thing was happening in Kashmir, I would be the first to call for outright Kashmiri independence and I am sure most Indians would too).`` It is good to hear you say this. Instead of giving my own opinion (which you may consider biased), I would like to point you to www.amnesty-usa.org, and to http://www.hrw.org/ (Amnesty International, and Human Rights watch). Do a search on, ``Kashmir.`` There are many other international NGO credible resources, as well. They cover Kashmir through their own sources, many of whom are in Kashmir.

I get direct information from Amnesty International, regarding various issues I am involved in. These organizations indicate that the number of people killed in Kashmir since 1989 is well into the tens of thousands, and that there are over 500,000 military troops there. Due to this, the killings from the military have been far far higher than the killings from the militants (at leat that is what all the reports indicate). So I can send you that information, if you are interested, also. Most of the articles you read from the Indian (or Pakistani) press will be biased to one direction, or the other.

Amit: Reply 422: Thanks for the detailed information about the BJP. The more I learn about India, the more I realize how little I know.

There is something I have never been able to figure out. If one looks only at things statistically, one (at least I) would come to the conclusion that the India economy should be a lot stronger than it is at the moment; at least a lot stronger than Pakistan`s. India has a much higher educational rate than Pakistan. It has more natural resources. It is quite a bit ahead now in Science and Technology. It spends less on its armed forces per capita than Pakistan, etc. etc. Yet since the fifties, India`s per capita income has been lower than Pakistan. At times it was quite a bit lower. Even now, when Pakistan is at its lowest ebb, India`s per capita income is still lower than Pakistan`s (although it is projected to cross Paksitan`s within a decade, if the current scenarios continue. Let`s see if Musharraf`s economic team can stop the downslide that BB and NS put Pakistan into). Is this becuase of India`s socialist policies? Or are/were there other issues? Currently, India`s economy seems to have taken an upswing, while in the past ten years, Pakistan has had the lowest growth rates in its history, due to massive political corruption. Is India on its way out of the third world, much like many economists predicted that Pakistan was on its way out of the third world, until Bhutto nationalized everything?

Re : RoohiAD # 459

Haha RoohiAD .. no no Maleeha Lodhi doesn`t sell for free .. she exercises horizontal eloquence in return for favours. A case in point is horizontal lobbying for the brown amendment; though she couldn`t get anywhere on her back to get a refund for the $600 million on account of the ``khatara`` F-16`s. That was too much money for her charms !! Sharif`s ambassador got it back later through Vertical eloquence.

Did you forget to mention the smuggling and drug charges on her brother Amir Lodhi during her stint ? C`mon Roohi Ji tell us more ... !

Gnostics

This is a broadcast appeal/request to the participants on this Board:

If your post on this Board solely, or just about so, deals with the current crisis in Pakistan, then `pleeease`(with cherry on top?), post it concurrently, on the ``He Had No Choice`` Board too. For reasons of our own, some of us are still embracing that platform. The premiere reason has been enunciated by some a couple of times on that Board. I am confident most of us are aware of that. So please....

Should it be problematic for the ``poster(er)s`` to acceed to this request, then please allow me to take your posts, relevant to the topic I indicate, over to the other Board.

Sililoquy:

I thought about the hesitation, diffidence, unwillingness, reluctance of the poster(er)s to go to the other Board. This is what I thought.

1. Path of least resistance; ease in finding and writing on a Board which is staring one in the face on the Home page.

2. Exposure (tied in with the one below).

3. In the sun. Since one has to `find`, `look for` the other forum, it feels, `psychologically(?)`, that it is out of the sun, in the back yard, in the basement, in the warehouse, in the ``thummi waley un-th-er``. Besides, it is the, `wah-ji-wah-saarey/subb-tey/toe-aethey/yahaan- bathay-hoey-nain/hain` kind of feeling.

4. Most unlikely, but logical possibility anyway. Since the other forum `may` be under close scrutiny by the civil service underlings and reporting to the Army-Police gay (happy?) alliance, it could create problems for us if we visit Pakistan.

And, or, the F.B.I., or CSIS (Canadian), or Scotland Yard II, may jot down our names as hot heads; likely to cause trouble. So that next time an American or a Pakistani driver employed by an American Mission in Pakistan gets attacked, we would be the first to have our front and back doors knocked off. (Not, knocked at).

Many Pakistanis (Pak-Ams, or Pak-Cans) don`t think these things happen in their countries. A `writ of execution` will accomplish that. No warning, or warrants are needed.

SOLVING KASHMIR PROBLEM

India is building shell-shelters along the border for civilian use anticipating continued pak shelling. The jihadic forces will continue to infiltrate and pakistan is settling the afghans in POK. At last the two countries are moving in antisymmetric ways to solve the Kashmir problem. With the battle hardened talibans in POK, the claim that jihadic forces are from kashmir will be technically correct, and at last there are indications that Pakistan is preparing for long jihadic fight to which india will have to respond. At last solution is in sight.

Pak settles Afghans close to LoC

NEW DELHI, Dec 12 (PTI)

Pakistan`s ISI has reportedly settled hundreds of Afghan mercenaries close to the Line of Control (LoC) in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir after the October 12 army takeover, a move seen as an indicator towards the military regime`s plans to increase infiltration into Jammu and Kashmir.

The way for the settlement of Afghans along a one-km belt near the LoC has been paved by evacuating the local populace in Bagh Tehsil, Kotli, Nikial and Balnoi areas of PoK, according to intelligence sources.

``The belt is being used for launching militant groups into Jammu and Kashmir,`` the intelligence sources said, adding the services of Pakistan`s ex-servicemen were also used for these activities.

Stating that the process of settling Afghans near the LoC started soon after the military takeover in Pakistan, they said, ``it is evident from the action that the Musharraf regime wants to intensify the proxy war.``

The reports assume significance since the two militant groups active in Jammu and Kashmir - Lashker-e-Toiba and Harkat-ul Mujahideen - have very recently announced their plans to increase their activities in the coming days and months.

The Lashker-e-Toiba last week asked its `mujahideen` to intensify their attacks on India army installations during Ramzan which began on Friday last. Lashker chief Hafiz Muhammad Sayeed, in a message to his activists, had asked them to increase their activities since Ramzan was the ``month of Jehad.``

Another militant group Harkat- ul-Mujahideen had announced earlier that it would repeat the Kargil episode by sending its activists across the LoC to capture the strategic heights.

The `Second Kargil campaign` would be undertaken immediately after the snow melts there, Harkat chief Maulana Fazlur Rehman Khaleel had announced at a press conference in Hazira in PoK.

The Lashker and Harkat are among the six militant groups active in J and K and mostly comprise foreign mercenaries. Other groups active in the state are Tehreek-ul Mujahideen, Al Badr, Hizbul Mujahideen and the Islamic Front. India has repeatedly asked Pakistan to stop abetting terrorism for any bilateral talks to begin.

The Afghans have been settled in increasing numbers opposite Rajouri, Poonch and Doda districts of Jammu and Kashmir, obviously with an intention to push them across through these areas.

The settlement has, however, been resented by the local Kashmiris, who fear that it would cause problems for them, besides effecting a demographic change, the sources said.

There have been protests in several parts of PoK against the settlements, they said, adding in a recent demonstration at Nikial, a large group of locals demanded immediate vacation of their land by the Afghans.

The authorities have tried to pacify them by saying that the displacement was not permanent and that the settlers were `mujahideen` who had come to fight `jehad` in Kashmir. The protests are said to have been spearheaded by the J and K National Students Federation, National Liberation Front and the Al-Mujahid force.

Meanwhile, several groups in PoK have voiced their opposition to any move to convert the LoC into a permanent border, saying that Jammu and Kashmir could not be divided on the basis of religion or ethnicity.

The groups, at a convention held in Islamabad recently, have also demanded involvement of representatives of people of Jammu and Kashmir of both sides in any Indo- Pak talks. These groups include the J and K Muslim Conference, J and K Muslim League, Azad Kashmir League and PoK wing of Hurriyat Conference.

PARDESI # 429, 454

Dear Pardesi:

Thanks a lot for your responses. The first one was about the genesis of disillusionment in the Punjab. You described it so well that I did not have any further questions, at least for the time being. But I would just briefly comment on ``being a Sikh it is his moral duty to fight injustice with because that is our legacy``. I think there is a much bigger legacy of Sikhs and Sikhism, i.e., the simplicity of the Message, love, hard work and deep-rootedness in the native culture. I believe this is the main reason that Sikhism is the largest success story of conversions in Punjab in the last 400 years despite frequent persecutions and without political power (Maharaja Ranjit Singh`s rule was more of a secular Punjabi one).

The books I refer to in response to RA Janjua are about the Philosophy and Development of Hinduism in very academic and unbiased fashion. The quote you refer to is not from these books. It was from

History Of Punjab (Ancient Period) Vol. 1 by L. M. Joshi and Fauja Singh, published by Punjabi University, Patiala

This is the best and must read for any one interested in the ancient history upto Ashoka times. I do not have the next volume which deals with the Punjab History until Turkic-Afghan invasiosns of 12th century. So the volume two must be mostly about the Scythians rule over Punjab. Better get both volumes and they are only 300 Rs : each in India/Pakistan.

I summarized the quotes from pp. 173-175. Karna was the king of Anga (north eastern Bihar) who sided with the Pandavas. Here are some more quotes. About women,`` they are tall and healthy, white in complexion and are gluttons. They put on a woolen blankets over their shoulders. and are impure and lack modesty``. About men,`` they eat aprched barley-meal with beef and garlic, and drink wine distilled from molasses (whisky?). They are unrestrained in their loose talk, they become more so on festive ocasions. They indulge in loud shouting and laughter in merriment singing with no rythm or music``.

Actually it was a clash between the eastern orthodoxy on one hand and non-conservative/ non-conformist elements of the composite culture of the land of Five Rivers.

I learned most of this stuff on my own after my post-graduate education in USA, in my quest ( similar to RA Janjua) to know as much about myself as possible.

Stay in touch,

Regards

Sameer

Interesting to read about all the ``Hindu`` customs we Muslims observe. This has confirmed a long held view of mine that much of our ``islam`` is actually Hinduism. Or to be more precise, whatever we have is a ``folk Islam.``

Sigh, so much for all those Syeds and people claiming descent from Turks, Arabs and what-have-yous we have running around all over the place. However, my grandmother assured me that we had not a drop of foul, polluted Hindu blood in our veins as all of our ancestors were either Arabs (Quraish, of course) or Turks or Afghans. We`re so dark because we`ve been burnt by the sun.

Some people I know get really upset with me when I described our culture as Hindu with a veneer of Islam. But on a more serious note, does any one know of any work that deals with this issue? Just how much of our Islam is Hindu?