Again, Desperate Times

sadna # 57 (Earth ..)

Sadhanaji, I very much appreciate your kind words. If most of the people in our land are like you, more than half of our problems will disappear right away. I must also apologize to you if I unnecessarily criticized the whole Hindu community in my emotional outburst.

I really never wanted to bring up this 1984 issue on this thread since the topic brings back traumatic memories and makes me criticize the community with whom I have so much in common. Do you know how difficult it was for me personally those days to look deep inside and ask who am I? A Sikh or a Hindu? The reason; my father converted out of respect for Sikhism and also because my mom was from a pucca Sikh family. Now half of my relatives are Sikhs and others are Hindus. As you know this is very common situation with lots of Punjabi families. Self searching lead to other questions: Will ``these people`` do this to us again? What are our differences? What can we do about it? Can anything at all be done about it? On and on.

Trust me, I am somewhat familiar with Hindu sensitivities and aspirations. So please, when I criticize Hindus, it is only as a friend and not as an outsider throwing rocks in a taunting way. This experience has also allowed me to look at both Hindus and Sikhs as an outsider, rather than from inside with all raw emotions attached to it. I also feel I can roughly empathize with many of our Pakistani friends’ feelings, or more accurately their ancestors’ feelings when they converted from Hindus.

Religion, in my humble opinion, provides moral foundation since not every moral code can be put in legal code. Lawmakers, judges and attorneys can manipulate legal codes. On the other hand, religion taken to extreme can be very oppressive also. I suppose, this much we all can agree.

The challenge then is how do we find that optimum dose of religion in a multi-religious society. Is it possible at all? That proper dose, should it come from majority religion? Are they equipped to do that? Come to think of it, is that not what Mahatma Gandhi was trying to do with emphasis on moral codes borrowed liberally from Christians as well as from his own native land? No wonder he was called 75% politician and 75% social reformer. What a man!

How can one discuss these religious/moral issues without offending some one else’s sensitivities? That’s the dilemma I have. May be we should just stay away from this topic. Don’t know.

Best regards and thanks again for the sensitivities you have shown.

PS: Khalsa celebrations - I am really a secular Sikh with just minimum dose of religion, a Lite Sikh :-), and would not know about it. Thanks for the info though.

In response to Zeemax (Reply # 457)

Dear Zeemax:

Interesting narrative.

Your statement: ``The coup had been in the works since mid-september which first came to light by the sudden premature retirement of Lt. Gen Tariq Pervez, the Quetta Corps Commander by Musharaf; and the extraordinary appeal by USA to the army to avoid any unconstitutional act. Gen Tariq Pervez had tipped off Nawaz of the planned coup and efforts had thus been made by the political Govt. to prevent the same by first appointing Musharraf Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff and when that didn`t appear to work then approaching USA with hard evidence of the planned coup resulting in that unprecedented statement by USA.``

Comment: How do you know that General Tariq Pervez tipped off Nawaz? It seems that you reject the view that the CIA was behind the coup. How do you know that Nawaz approached the US with hard evidence of the planned coup? What hard evidence?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

APPOINTMENT OF MALEEHA LODHI AS AMBASSDOR OF ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN TO USA. An old timer in Pakistan, very angerly said if that`s the standard of selection by the present military regime, then it would have been better off to assign a prostitute from Lahore`s red light area as ambassdor to USA instaed of Maleeha Lodi. At least, everyone would know that the RLA prostitute won`t sell for free as Maleeha does. At least she (prostitute ambassdor)will bing some foreign exchange for the embassy, but now Maleeha is going to wine and dine here ashiqs on pakistani tax payers money. Allah help us, we are under heaps of shame.

Roohi a Ditta

On another note, the army and the judiciary have today been exempted from the purview of the National Accountability Bureau. They`re more equal amongst equals therefore untouchable.

It`s neither here nor there that they`re also the most corrupt.

Re bahmad # 445

Dear Bilal,

To get to the truth one has to study the facts as they appeared as well as read between the lines. The coup had been in the works since mid-september which first came to light by the sudden premature retirement of Lt. Gen Tariq Pervez, the Quetta Corps Commander by Musharaf; and the extraordinary appeal by USA to the army to avoid any unconstitutional act. Gen Tariq Pervez had tipped off Nawaz of the planned coup and efforts had thus been made by the political Govt. to prevent the same by first appointing Musharraf Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff and when that didn`t appear to work then approaching USA with hard evidence of the planned coup resulting in that unprecendted statement by USA. In the meantime Gen Pervez was fired by Musharraf and Nawaz was forced to sign on his retirement papers.

Secondly, Musharraf has recently said in an interview to BBC that he was preparing notes in the plane and composing thoughts as to what he is going to propose to the Prime Minister as to the Army`s help in running the country; when he was informed by the crew of the diversion instruction. The question arises that coming back from an official trip what was he doing thinking and making notes about how to run the Govt. instead of how to run the military ?

The answer is perhaps that formation of a National Security Council was to be dictated to the Prime Minister, and in case of his refusal a coup de`tat was ready. If not on the 12th October then definitely during the course of the next few days.

Nawaz had added 2+2 together by the 11th Oct and called over his son Hussain Nawaz to Islamabad that night to write his speech to the nation (that`s why Hussain Nawaz is detained in solitary confinement without charges as apart from the Prime Minister only he knows what the PM was going to say in his speech.)The next morning the Prime Minister alongwith Hussain Nawaz, journalist Nazir Naji, MNA Javaid Hashmi and Senator Pervez Rashid went to Multan for consultation with the PML MNA there, came back around noon and Nawaz Sharif dismissed the army chief. Official notification to this effect was signed around 4:00 PM. Rest is history.

Musharaf could not be arrested in Karachi for fear that Corps Commander Karachi General Usmani, a staunch Musharraf loyalist, would try to prevent the arrest and a clash could take place between the police and the army. Rana Maqbool was very much in Karachi and not Nawabshah.

It is true that the army was taken by surprise by Nawaz`s bold move to dismiss the general and order his arrest, they had expected complete capitulation by the PM, so they fumbled and stumbled after the coup for legitimate grounds and thus the ``Tayyara Case`` came into existance.

If Nawaz is placed on the stand to testify and tell his story, then the whole truth will emerge. But that`s if there`s a fair trial ! Not exactly the legacy of this country`s judiciary.

Re:Pardesi #452

The Indian foreign minister Jaswant Singh has recently written a book, where he has called the eighties as the decade of destruction. He has argued how the socialistic policies of the Nehru dynasty coupled with the dictatorial instincts of Indira Gandhi nearly led India to a catastrophe. The economy was in terrible shape and in a shrinking economy, everything is a zero sum game. Hindus were facing caste conflict due to the call for reservations, while religious conflict with non-hindus was beginning to get really serious. In other words, India was headed towards Soviet Union style or Yugoslavia style implosion. Most people including Hindus were feeling the hard times. I still remember that in the mid eighties, a well established professional like an engineer could not even think about owning a car until he was more than 50 years old. If he was lucky, maybe he could manage a scooter or motorcycle. Even at 50 years age, the person would have required government loans to buy a second hand car. If that was the situation of educated professionals, one can imagine the state of others. There were a few crony capitalists, like the Birlas, who owned the entire private sector and produced third class goods with massive subsidies and sold them at exorbitant prices.

Clearly the entire saga of the Khalistan movement, 1984 riots etc., can be described as nothing short of madness. However, given the socio-economic scenario it was not surprising. In fact, it provided a wake up call to India. Luckily the upper class was wise enought to realize the ridiculous state of affairs and started liberalizing the economy. The wily Brahmin, P.V. Narasimha Rao along with his able Sikh economist Manmohan Singh, saved India from going under. There are still some weird leftists and marxists who question the economic liberalization, but in my opinion it was the best thing that happened to India. Hopefully as economic opportunities explode, Sikhs will take back their rightful place as the pivotal community in India.

Re: rajanjua#436, SameerJB#449

Amir Sahib,

Sameer has described the evolution of Hinduism very well. One thing that is interesting to note is the striking differences between ancient Vedic Hinduism and the current nature of the religion. Vedic Hinduism was a simple religion with little emphasis on rituals and no idol worship. There was no pervasive caste system. This is quite a contrast with modern day Hinduism. Recently I saw a video where in Gujarat, people were praying to live rats in a temple. It is hard to imagine how such abominations crept into Hinduism and corrupted the faith. It would not be an exaggaration to say that Vedic Hinduism had considerable similarities with the principles of Islam, although they developed entirely independently in different parts of the world.

If I recall correctly, there is a mention of ``Varna`` or skin color in the Vedas. This is clearly the result of Aryan interaction with non Aryans in the subcontinent. Some people in India have recently tried to negate the Aryan invasion theory, but the evidence points otherwise. Aryans always looked down upon non Aryans and, in fact, the word ``anari`` used in Hindi/Urdu has roots in this racial conflict. ``Anari`` basically means someone who is not an Aryan and it is used commonly to look down on someone as a simpleton. Some people also believe that the Aryans created the caste system by taking the existing professional categories and merging it with the racial divide to create the high level caste divisions in Hindu society. This was probably necessary to protect Aryan bloodlines as Aryans settled all over the subcontinent that was already inhabited by indigenous people. This hypothesis seems valid because upper castes are on the average fairer and taller than others in Hindu society. If this is true, upper caste hindus are probably the closest genetically to Pakistanis and Afghans, whom they consider their arch enemy.

There is one aspect of Hindu civilization that is manifested all over the subcontinent and that is their fratricidal instincts. Mahabharat is a story of competing groups of cousins fighting for power for dominating the subcontinent. The two groups of blood cousins, Kauravs and Pandavs grow up as bitter rivals who repeatedly try to assert their superiority over each other. Each side has talented individuals committed to their side. Since both groups are powerful, other rulers in the subcontinent vow their allegiance to one group or the other. All this finally culminates in the epic battle of Kurukshetra where the Pandavs win after a mass scale butchering of each side. Does all this sound similar in the Indo-Pak context ?

SameerJB # 449

Dear Sameer Sahib: SS

{Most of the Punjabi tribes sided with Kauravas and came out on the losing side. That is why, one supporter of Pandavas, named Karna was cursing Punjabis a lot during war with statements like, meat-eating, men and women freely mixing and intermarrying among upper and lower castes, boozers and party animals, etc. Isn`t it true even today?}

You are just unbelievable. Did you get the above information from one of the two books you mentioned? Now I will have to read these books. BTW, did you learn all about Hinduism in Islamabad university or overseas? Just curious.

Regards.

Re: #449 SameerJB

Dear Sameer,

Thanks for your detailed reply. I`ll look up these references. I have always been fascinated by the rich history and culture of our land.

Regards,

Amir

satyavadi # 440

You have not read my posts carefully. If you direct your energies to careful reading rather than trigger happy responding, it would be much more beneficial interaction. I have NEVER said that:

1. Sikhs are the only contributing community. Other communities and people have made their own contributions and I have lots of respect for them.

2. Without Sikhs Indian army will be weakened. In fact, my point is that it’s the best thing that can happen to Sikhs although most of them might not have realized it.

We are only talking here about state (Congress) sponsored massacres in 1984. You talk about justice denied to others as well. I do not believe central government leaders in power have conducted organized butchery of Gujratis, Parsis, Bengalis and other fine and smart communities you have mentioned. Have they?

I agree with you that India would definitely survive without Sikhs and so could Sikhs without India.

Grow up. Think before responding.

Ref somnath #: 438

You wrote {Caste clashes also continued to plague the southern state of Tamil Nadu, and Dalit women were primary targets. On March 29, in the

Ogalur-Villupuram region of Tamil Nadu, four upper- caste men sexually assaulted a female Dalit farm labourer. The attackers were then beaten by those responding to the labourer`s cry for help. On April 3, in retaliation for the beatings, three upper-caste men set fire to a Dalit colony, injuring 20 people. On June 19 a gang of upper-caste Hindus looted and destroyed the houses in a Dalit settlement in Kodankipatti village, Madurai district, after Dalits there had demanded a share in the common property of the village. The Dalits were then chased out of their homes.}

It is interesting to get these reports from Human Rights Watch. What these Westerners do not know is exactly what castes are involved in the clashes. The issue is presented as Dalit vs. upper caste people. The only thing upper caste about the attackers of the Dalits is that they are considered higher than the Dalits which is not difficult considering that the Dalits are the lowest on the totem pole. The attackers, in all probability, are Shudras, the bottom-most of the 4 major caste groups. Of course this will not be talked about because it is politically incorrect in Southern states to identify the attackers. After all, isn`t the party supporting the rights of the downtrodden in power since 1967? Haven`t they empowered the lower castes? Don`t they draw their major support from the lower castes? Thirty-two years later, they cannot eradicate caste. How can they? After preaching a casteless society to the population, the leaders of these parties continue to marry among their own castes while officiating at inter-caste marriages for others. BB and NS are simpletons compared to Indian politicians.

Re: #440 satyavadi

Satya Ji

Without the Punjabi Jat, the Indian Army may not cease to exist but it will definitely be incomplete. Punjabis have centuries of warrior traditions-Some of the best soldiers have come from this region. Indians should thank their Punjabi brothers who have been laying down their lives for India since 1947. And in my opinion no amount of their gratitude is enough.

Regards,

Amir

RAJANJUA # 436

Dear Amir:

Here are couple of very good books about Hinduism.

1. A Survey of Hinduism by Klaus Klostermaier, State University of NY Press, 1995.

2. The Beginings of Indian Philosophy by Franklin Edgerton, Harvard University Press, 1965.

Hinduism in a broad group of interconnected tradition of Vedas, Upanishads, Epics, Puranas, Temple Traditions, Tantras and most recently Vedanta and other Schools of Thoughts. Vedic traditions are the earliest with Rigveda being the most Important. The Ramayana and Mahabharata belong to the Epics and Gita is a part of the Mahabharata whereas modern Yoga Traditions mostly belong to Tantric Period. The Temple and Tantric Traditions were developed during the Turkic-Afghan Empires in India. The term Hinduism was coined by British in the nineteenth century to refer to the religous systems encompassing the beliefs and practices of Indian people not adhering to the other named religions.

Since the sacrifice was the most important aspect of Vedic Traditions, the modern day offering to the Dieties should be the oldest continous Tradition of Hinduism. So the Muslim offering of `niaz` is rooted in their pre-islamic traditions in India. That may be one of the reason that Wahabis and other `purist` sects of Muslims are against it. The festivals of Renewal or Rebirth must also be very old and comparable to Chineese New Year, Nauroz, Easter (Mithraism, the Bull worship of the Romans, included in the Christianity). It is Vasakhi or Baisakhi in Northern India. Similar to the marriage and death rituals among Muslims of the Indus valley, Vasakhi has also been continued as `melas` at the end of harvesting season. The Divali is, I think, from the Epic Period of Ramayama and so is Holi. You need to confirm it from other sources. The Epic period is generally thoght to be around 300-700 B.C.

This little tidbit of information might help you in your quest for the beliefs and practices of your ancestors. Another intersesting assignment for you may be to identify the best possible geographical site for your ancestors to be in 500-700 B.C. If you succeed in this endeavor, then look in Mahabharata for different Punjabi tribes taking sides between Kauravas and Pandavas. Their names may not sound as you might expect today but using the localities of these tribes with respect to rivers, you may make a safe guess to what tribe your ancestor most likely beloged. Hint: Most of the Punjabi tribes sided with Kauravas and came out on the losing side. That is why, one supporter of Pandavas, named Karna was cursing Punjabis a lot during war with statements like, meat-eating, men and women freely mixing and intermarrying among upper and lower castes, boozers and party animals, etc. Isn`t it true even today?

Pardesi #426

I am posting a reply on the `Deepa Mehta`s Earth..` thread.

Sadhana

bahmad #424

Dear Bilal,

Thanks for your kind words. I hope you are aware that your own great patience and tolerance on chowk.com have been an inspiration to many posters.

Sincerely,

Sadhana

Hmm ... interesting editorial in Friday Times by many people`s favorite yellow journalist Najam Sethi. An excerpt is as follows :

[Most people look at the NSC and various cabinets and conclude that the new regime is mired in a bureaucratic status quo. Others wonder aloud why there is a preponderance of ``Urdu-speakers`` in all the critical slots of government. Many scan the think-tanks to argue that the civilians are merely rubber-stamps for a government in which all the important decisions are being taken by the men in khaki, whether at the corps commanders level or in GHQ or in the ISI. Meanwhile, an uncomfortable number of people are saying that the regime is practising double-standards by targeting allegedly corrupt or errant businessmen, politicians and landlords while protecting allegedly corrupt or deviant civil-servants and generals. Meanwhile, hardly anyone thinks that Nawaz Sharif should be convicted in the hijacking case when so many better and more credible alternatives are available. And a few are even betting that this regime will be overtaken by another in due course ]

This goes to confirm two points:

One, that the ``Mutter`` contention of RoohiAD may have something to it after all.

Two, Asma Jehangir has said that when she was stopped at the airport when leaving for Kosovo on a UN assignment (her husband is on the defaulter list) and her passport confiscated, the passport was not returned even after direct intervention of the federal Govt. The army men at the airport told her they had to get final clearance from ``the 10th Corp`` in Rawalpindi. So it`s not the frontmen who`re running the show. It`s the Corp Commanders !!!

And our poor countrymen are fooled yet again ... again and again ..