Zia Mian and A H Nayyar November 14, 1999
#431 Posted by bahmad on December 11, 1999 7:44:25 am
In response to SameerJB (Reply #: 437)
Dear Sameer:
Your statement (about Coup): ``They [the army] had already made the decision to overthrow the elected Government. Rest of the drama is just to fill in the blanks, just like movies songs are written to fit the story.``
Comment: I tend to agree with you. In good Indian movies, many songs are well written to suit the story, but the plane saga is a very flimsy reason for a coup.
When I first mentioned that I have a theory about the Coup, I was wondering about the plausibility that the coup was already planned and/or already in the process. I suspected that General Ziauddin (ISI Chief) had actually leaked the inside story of the coup to Nawaz Sharif. I wondered: Why would Nawaz suspend the army Chief (Musharraf) on the 12th when he had already granted him an extension only a week or so earlier? I also wondered: Why Ziauddin as the next army Chief? Why would Nawaz order for the closure of the Karachi airport, unless there was something really serious? Why couldn`t Musharraf be arrested in Karachi?
Perhaps Rana Maqbool was somewhere near Nawabshah, and Nawaz didn`t want any other person to do the job in Karachi. Even if the coup wasn`t already in process (at the time of the sacking of Musharraf), the top army officers had already decided among themselves (a military secret) that they would remove Nawaz (or any other PM) if he attacks any one of the top few army officers (or the institution of the army). The army had no choice: it had to chose between the institution (top brass) or the PM (a politician who virtually failed somehow).
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
Dear Sameer:
Your statement (about Coup): ``They [the army] had already made the decision to overthrow the elected Government. Rest of the drama is just to fill in the blanks, just like movies songs are written to fit the story.``
Comment: I tend to agree with you. In good Indian movies, many songs are well written to suit the story, but the plane saga is a very flimsy reason for a coup.
When I first mentioned that I have a theory about the Coup, I was wondering about the plausibility that the coup was already planned and/or already in the process. I suspected that General Ziauddin (ISI Chief) had actually leaked the inside story of the coup to Nawaz Sharif. I wondered: Why would Nawaz suspend the army Chief (Musharraf) on the 12th when he had already granted him an extension only a week or so earlier? I also wondered: Why Ziauddin as the next army Chief? Why would Nawaz order for the closure of the Karachi airport, unless there was something really serious? Why couldn`t Musharraf be arrested in Karachi?
Perhaps Rana Maqbool was somewhere near Nawabshah, and Nawaz didn`t want any other person to do the job in Karachi. Even if the coup wasn`t already in process (at the time of the sacking of Musharraf), the top army officers had already decided among themselves (a military secret) that they would remove Nawaz (or any other PM) if he attacks any one of the top few army officers (or the institution of the army). The army had no choice: it had to chose between the institution (top brass) or the PM (a politician who virtually failed somehow).
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
#430 Posted by bahmad on December 11, 1999 7:44:25 am
Judicial Reform in Pakistan: Contempt or Common Sense?
People in Pakistan are talking common sense. A reward of freedom of speech (not without serious costs in Pakistan). Amar Jaleel`s piece is an eye-opener. How much we lack something called decency? How much autocracy is there? Judges are public servants, they have become our masters and have failed to provide justice (as an institution) to the people of Pakistan. What should we do as citizens of Pakistan? Shouldn`t we write, write, and write. . . and keep on writing against all transgressions?
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
The Nation
Saturday, December 11, 1999
A question of contempt
Amar Jaleel
I am a frightened person. As if political and social degeneration in our society was not enough, a news item has shaken my faith in the country. I have more than one reason to believe I am not safe in my own country. Dying on the pavement with a few bullets pumped into your head and heart by an unknown assassin is no more an uncommon phenomenon in Pakistan. Death is not an enigma for us. We have learnt to die many a time before actually passing away from this world. I am talking about ending up in prison for a crime not committed by you! You do not know when you will be sent to prison, and why!
An unambiguous, commonly understandable, and comprehensive legal system is a prerequisite for good governance for the rulers in a civilised country. The law is not meant to confuse people who seek justice. The law is not to frustrate, but to provide relief to the wronged, and punishment to the guilty. Have we ever thought of a reason behind innumerous gruesome murders within the confines and close proximity of the courts in Pakistan during the last 52 years? Countless persons who have committed crimes, those who have not committed any crime, and suspects are languishing in Pakistani prisons for years. Some of them are occasionally produced in the relevant courts, others are not. They rot, develop deadly diseases, and die in the prisons without ever being dispensed justice. Some of them go mad and end up in mental asylums.
The British departed, and we adapted their legal system, including the Penal and Criminal Procedure Codes. Certain wizards were assigned to amend it to suit the requirements of our country. They worked very hard and replaced the word `India` with `Pakistan` in each sentence of the voluminous Indian Penal Code Indian Criminal Procedure Code and in the rest of the Acts and legal books. Thus, we have `Pakistan Post Office Act of 1892`! A killer is booked under Section 302 of the Pakistan Criminal Procedure Code in Pakistan, and in India too a killer is booked under Section 302 of the Indian Criminal Procedure Code, for they adopted it as it was left behind by the British.
The two countries, India and Pakistan, diametrically opposed to each other, have almost identical legal systems, and procedures for the appointment of Judges. It is no less than a nightmare to come into contact with the law. It is awful, It augments unending miseries. A rude, semi-literate and arrogant police constable gives us the first taste of our legal system when he grabs you by the throat and tells you to prove your innocence. Never, ever pick a quarrel with your next door neighbour if he happens to be directly, indirectly or remotely related to the law and the legal system in our country. He would soon make you curse your mother for bringing you into this world!
The foregoing prelude is prompted by a news item in which a Judge discovered an error in the mark-sheet of his daughter. He spoke on the telephone spoke to the Controller of Examinations of the University. During the discourse the Judge did not like the diction of the Controller of Examinations, and sent him to jail for contempt of court! The news item was outrageous. I trembled. Fear crept through my soul.
As a common person, I understand `contempt of court` is committed during the proceedings of a case when a person ignores or disobeys the orders of the court or misbehaves with the judge. Or, when a person casts aspersions on and uses foul language against a judge or judges. The Controller of Examinations was sitting in his office in the University. The judge talked to him absolutely in his personal capacity, and not as a judge dealing with the proceedings of a case. Then, how come the tone and diction of the Controller of Examinations amounts to `contempt of court?` I feel terribly perturbed. Certain questions have erupted within me that I would like to share with you.
A judge happens to he a human being like the rest of us. He is appointed. He is promoted. He receives a salary, lives in a house, has a family and a bank account. He seeks a secure future for his children. He attends official and private functions. Dines in hotels. He purchases clothes, shoes, and the provisions of daily use from different outlets. He undertakes these activities absolutely in his personal capacity, and not as a judge.
If a judge doesn`t like the food served to him in a hotel, would he find the cook in `contempt of court` and send him to prison? If he doesn`t approve of his newly stitched trousers, would he find the tailor in `contempt of court` and send him to jail? His son picks up trouble with the son of his next door neighbour, and they fight. Would he find the neighbour and his son guilty of `contempt of court` and dispatch both of them to prison?
The Supreme Adjudicator watches the judges and their judgments.
People in Pakistan are talking common sense. A reward of freedom of speech (not without serious costs in Pakistan). Amar Jaleel`s piece is an eye-opener. How much we lack something called decency? How much autocracy is there? Judges are public servants, they have become our masters and have failed to provide justice (as an institution) to the people of Pakistan. What should we do as citizens of Pakistan? Shouldn`t we write, write, and write. . . and keep on writing against all transgressions?
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
The Nation
Saturday, December 11, 1999
A question of contempt
Amar Jaleel
I am a frightened person. As if political and social degeneration in our society was not enough, a news item has shaken my faith in the country. I have more than one reason to believe I am not safe in my own country. Dying on the pavement with a few bullets pumped into your head and heart by an unknown assassin is no more an uncommon phenomenon in Pakistan. Death is not an enigma for us. We have learnt to die many a time before actually passing away from this world. I am talking about ending up in prison for a crime not committed by you! You do not know when you will be sent to prison, and why!
An unambiguous, commonly understandable, and comprehensive legal system is a prerequisite for good governance for the rulers in a civilised country. The law is not meant to confuse people who seek justice. The law is not to frustrate, but to provide relief to the wronged, and punishment to the guilty. Have we ever thought of a reason behind innumerous gruesome murders within the confines and close proximity of the courts in Pakistan during the last 52 years? Countless persons who have committed crimes, those who have not committed any crime, and suspects are languishing in Pakistani prisons for years. Some of them are occasionally produced in the relevant courts, others are not. They rot, develop deadly diseases, and die in the prisons without ever being dispensed justice. Some of them go mad and end up in mental asylums.
The British departed, and we adapted their legal system, including the Penal and Criminal Procedure Codes. Certain wizards were assigned to amend it to suit the requirements of our country. They worked very hard and replaced the word `India` with `Pakistan` in each sentence of the voluminous Indian Penal Code Indian Criminal Procedure Code and in the rest of the Acts and legal books. Thus, we have `Pakistan Post Office Act of 1892`! A killer is booked under Section 302 of the Pakistan Criminal Procedure Code in Pakistan, and in India too a killer is booked under Section 302 of the Indian Criminal Procedure Code, for they adopted it as it was left behind by the British.
The two countries, India and Pakistan, diametrically opposed to each other, have almost identical legal systems, and procedures for the appointment of Judges. It is no less than a nightmare to come into contact with the law. It is awful, It augments unending miseries. A rude, semi-literate and arrogant police constable gives us the first taste of our legal system when he grabs you by the throat and tells you to prove your innocence. Never, ever pick a quarrel with your next door neighbour if he happens to be directly, indirectly or remotely related to the law and the legal system in our country. He would soon make you curse your mother for bringing you into this world!
The foregoing prelude is prompted by a news item in which a Judge discovered an error in the mark-sheet of his daughter. He spoke on the telephone spoke to the Controller of Examinations of the University. During the discourse the Judge did not like the diction of the Controller of Examinations, and sent him to jail for contempt of court! The news item was outrageous. I trembled. Fear crept through my soul.
As a common person, I understand `contempt of court` is committed during the proceedings of a case when a person ignores or disobeys the orders of the court or misbehaves with the judge. Or, when a person casts aspersions on and uses foul language against a judge or judges. The Controller of Examinations was sitting in his office in the University. The judge talked to him absolutely in his personal capacity, and not as a judge dealing with the proceedings of a case. Then, how come the tone and diction of the Controller of Examinations amounts to `contempt of court?` I feel terribly perturbed. Certain questions have erupted within me that I would like to share with you.
A judge happens to he a human being like the rest of us. He is appointed. He is promoted. He receives a salary, lives in a house, has a family and a bank account. He seeks a secure future for his children. He attends official and private functions. Dines in hotels. He purchases clothes, shoes, and the provisions of daily use from different outlets. He undertakes these activities absolutely in his personal capacity, and not as a judge.
If a judge doesn`t like the food served to him in a hotel, would he find the cook in `contempt of court` and send him to prison? If he doesn`t approve of his newly stitched trousers, would he find the tailor in `contempt of court` and send him to jail? His son picks up trouble with the son of his next door neighbour, and they fight. Would he find the neighbour and his son guilty of `contempt of court` and dispatch both of them to prison?
The Supreme Adjudicator watches the judges and their judgments.
#429 Posted by zeemax on December 11, 1999 2:06:49 am
Ikkisween Sadi Dastoor - The Millenium Manifesto:
Proposed manifesto of a new political party.
Political :
1) Maintenance and preservation of the 1973 constitution in it`s original form sans all amendments. It is recognised that the 1973 constitution was created with unanimous consent of all the political parties and provinces, hence only the 1973 constitution can safeguard each one`s rights.
2) Freedom of gathering, expression, and speech. Pakistan Television and Radio to be made fully autonomous bodies on the pattern of British Broadcasting Corporation. Ministries of Information at all levels to be abolished.
3) A consensus to be reached on a two party system; Liberal and Conservative; to replace the 20 or so major political parties, in order to end the severe polarisation that exists in the socio-political fabric.
4) Clarification of national identity and the two-nation theory in the light of 52 years of experience. It is felt that the two-nation theory interpreted purely on the basis of religion ceased to be valid after secession of East Pakistan. Interpretation of Two-Nation theory to be reverted to the original basis as envisaged by M.A Jinnah, i.e. economic considerations of the Muslim minority in undivided India. Text Book Board to revise educational text-books in the light of original interpretation of the national identity and meaning of the two-nation theory.
Provinces :
1)The Economic Coordination Council (ECC) to be abolished. All provinces to be made fully autonomous in their revenue and expenditure so any feeling of exploitation of smaller provinces is removed. State Bank to finance any gaps in any provinces` budgets from surpluses of other provinces or from domestic savings at market mark-up rates.
2) Two new provinces to be formed. Karachi and Saraiki. Karachi to include the Karachi city within it`s administrative limits.
Seraiki to include Multan, Dera Ghazi Khan, Shakar Garh, Dera Ismail khan and the Indus West Bank region.
3) NWFP to be renamed as Hazara Pakhtunkhwa.
4) Quota system in government jobs to be abolished. All appointments to be on merit alone.
Foreign Policy :
1)Regional Cooperation For Development (RCD) as initiated by Ayub Khan to be revived. The original membership of RCD consisting Pakistan, Iran and Turkey to be expanded to include India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. The objective of RCD to promote regional understanding through cultural and media exchanges .
2) Irritants to be removed in relations with the USA and the European Union on issues like Terrorism and Drug Enforcement.
3) Complete Disengagement from Afghanistan. Sealing of borders with Afghanistan till the time a stable and representative government is formed in that country. Diplomatic ties to be maintained for advice and influence. It is recognised that active engagement in Afghanistan has done great and perhaps irreperable damage to Pakistan.
4) Status Quo to be maintained in relation with the Gulf States and Saudi Arabia.
Defence :
1) No-War-pact to be signed with India. Bilateral and simultaneous withdrawal from the Line of Control and the International Borders. A summit to be held in either Delhi or Lahore with the single-point agenda to honour the war-dead of both countries.
2) Line of Control to be made permanent into an International Border in return for India agreeing to withdraw from Siachen. Siachen to be declared as no-man`s-land by mutual treaty.
3) Immediate cessation of active militant interference in Kashmir. A recognition and expression of the realities as follows:
a) Kashmir does not belong to Pakistan regardless of historical events during partition, and is not likely to belong to Pakistan even after a referendum or self-determination. If Kashmir thus is a secessionist movement it is an internal matter of India.
b) Human rights violations in Kashmir are wrong and the party will continue to raise it`s voice on purely humanitarian grounds as called for in Chechneya or Kososvo or any other such spots in the world. The Party has faith that the United Nations and other bodies also will intervene to prevent human rights abuses in Kashmir.
c) Pakistan is not at military parity with India nor equipped to to occupy Kashmir by force. Even if it was, it would be an agressive and expansionist act which is morally wrong and unacceptable to the world community. Therefore a complete disavowment of any military action for resolution of the Kashmir dispute.
d) A realisation that although solution of the Kashmir Dispute is ingrained in our hearts by our environmental and political influences, policies of losing Pakistan in the pursuit of gaining Kashmir cannot be sustained.
e) Nuclear program to be maintained in line with the regional balance of power. CTBT to be signed unilaterally as well as the Nuclear Non-Profileration Agreement. Nuclear program to be developed solely on computer simulated testing basis.
Economy :
1) A negotiated debt moratorium on IMF and World Bank loans for a period of two years. Commercial debt like swap loans to be serviced normally in order to keep the commercial debt ratings up.
2) Keynesian model of deficit financing by printing of currency notes to be followed. Production of additional goods and services to match the aditional money in circulation within three months to avoid inflation. Money thus printed to be spent on capital and manpower intensive projects e.g. housing, motorcycles, automobiles and infrastructural projects of roads and telecommunications in order to create jobs and demand to jumpstart the economy out of the current recession. IT Industry to be given special emphasis. Software Parks to be developed in cooperation with the Banglore industry of India.
3) A Resolution Trust Corporation to be formed to buy the defaulted loans of nationalised banks at a viable discounted price. The corporation`s equity to be financed by junk bond flotations on the international market. The corporation to be staffed by the most energetic and experienced bankers to find ways to recover the bad debts through revival or sale of the sick industry. Nationalised banks then to be privatised after transfer of their bad loans as above.
4)A common market on the lines of the European Union to be initiated by the States of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. Since the hard currency resources need to be preserved in the region, the trading unit between the region to be either Barter Trade through Escrow accounts or Special Drawing Rights (SDR) to reduce dependance on a dollar based settlement system.
5)Free trade between all the member countries of the region with a reciprocal tariff structure.
6)Construction of Kala Bagh Dam to be commenced without delay.
7) WAPDA to be first split into two seperate entities respectively for Power and Water supplies and then further split into managable regional units as subsidiaries. Minority ownership of the units to be privatised.
8) Tax structure to be simplified and revenue base broadened by abolishing numerous taxes like wealth tax, property tax, excise duty and surcharges etc., and replacing them with an across the board tax on consumption.
9) Maximum allocations to be made in the federal budget towards development of Human Resource through education and social reforms.
10)Defence Budget to be reduced in proportion and reciprocally with India in view of a no-war-pact, by placing a moratorium on further recruitments and military hardware purchases.
The way forward for Pakistan in the globalisation trends of next millenium !
Any other path would likely lead to international isolation and further dismembermement of the country.
Comments ?
Zeemax
Proposed manifesto of a new political party.
Political :
1) Maintenance and preservation of the 1973 constitution in it`s original form sans all amendments. It is recognised that the 1973 constitution was created with unanimous consent of all the political parties and provinces, hence only the 1973 constitution can safeguard each one`s rights.
2) Freedom of gathering, expression, and speech. Pakistan Television and Radio to be made fully autonomous bodies on the pattern of British Broadcasting Corporation. Ministries of Information at all levels to be abolished.
3) A consensus to be reached on a two party system; Liberal and Conservative; to replace the 20 or so major political parties, in order to end the severe polarisation that exists in the socio-political fabric.
4) Clarification of national identity and the two-nation theory in the light of 52 years of experience. It is felt that the two-nation theory interpreted purely on the basis of religion ceased to be valid after secession of East Pakistan. Interpretation of Two-Nation theory to be reverted to the original basis as envisaged by M.A Jinnah, i.e. economic considerations of the Muslim minority in undivided India. Text Book Board to revise educational text-books in the light of original interpretation of the national identity and meaning of the two-nation theory.
Provinces :
1)The Economic Coordination Council (ECC) to be abolished. All provinces to be made fully autonomous in their revenue and expenditure so any feeling of exploitation of smaller provinces is removed. State Bank to finance any gaps in any provinces` budgets from surpluses of other provinces or from domestic savings at market mark-up rates.
2) Two new provinces to be formed. Karachi and Saraiki. Karachi to include the Karachi city within it`s administrative limits.
Seraiki to include Multan, Dera Ghazi Khan, Shakar Garh, Dera Ismail khan and the Indus West Bank region.
3) NWFP to be renamed as Hazara Pakhtunkhwa.
4) Quota system in government jobs to be abolished. All appointments to be on merit alone.
Foreign Policy :
1)Regional Cooperation For Development (RCD) as initiated by Ayub Khan to be revived. The original membership of RCD consisting Pakistan, Iran and Turkey to be expanded to include India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. The objective of RCD to promote regional understanding through cultural and media exchanges .
2) Irritants to be removed in relations with the USA and the European Union on issues like Terrorism and Drug Enforcement.
3) Complete Disengagement from Afghanistan. Sealing of borders with Afghanistan till the time a stable and representative government is formed in that country. Diplomatic ties to be maintained for advice and influence. It is recognised that active engagement in Afghanistan has done great and perhaps irreperable damage to Pakistan.
4) Status Quo to be maintained in relation with the Gulf States and Saudi Arabia.
Defence :
1) No-War-pact to be signed with India. Bilateral and simultaneous withdrawal from the Line of Control and the International Borders. A summit to be held in either Delhi or Lahore with the single-point agenda to honour the war-dead of both countries.
2) Line of Control to be made permanent into an International Border in return for India agreeing to withdraw from Siachen. Siachen to be declared as no-man`s-land by mutual treaty.
3) Immediate cessation of active militant interference in Kashmir. A recognition and expression of the realities as follows:
a) Kashmir does not belong to Pakistan regardless of historical events during partition, and is not likely to belong to Pakistan even after a referendum or self-determination. If Kashmir thus is a secessionist movement it is an internal matter of India.
b) Human rights violations in Kashmir are wrong and the party will continue to raise it`s voice on purely humanitarian grounds as called for in Chechneya or Kososvo or any other such spots in the world. The Party has faith that the United Nations and other bodies also will intervene to prevent human rights abuses in Kashmir.
c) Pakistan is not at military parity with India nor equipped to to occupy Kashmir by force. Even if it was, it would be an agressive and expansionist act which is morally wrong and unacceptable to the world community. Therefore a complete disavowment of any military action for resolution of the Kashmir dispute.
d) A realisation that although solution of the Kashmir Dispute is ingrained in our hearts by our environmental and political influences, policies of losing Pakistan in the pursuit of gaining Kashmir cannot be sustained.
e) Nuclear program to be maintained in line with the regional balance of power. CTBT to be signed unilaterally as well as the Nuclear Non-Profileration Agreement. Nuclear program to be developed solely on computer simulated testing basis.
Economy :
1) A negotiated debt moratorium on IMF and World Bank loans for a period of two years. Commercial debt like swap loans to be serviced normally in order to keep the commercial debt ratings up.
2) Keynesian model of deficit financing by printing of currency notes to be followed. Production of additional goods and services to match the aditional money in circulation within three months to avoid inflation. Money thus printed to be spent on capital and manpower intensive projects e.g. housing, motorcycles, automobiles and infrastructural projects of roads and telecommunications in order to create jobs and demand to jumpstart the economy out of the current recession. IT Industry to be given special emphasis. Software Parks to be developed in cooperation with the Banglore industry of India.
3) A Resolution Trust Corporation to be formed to buy the defaulted loans of nationalised banks at a viable discounted price. The corporation`s equity to be financed by junk bond flotations on the international market. The corporation to be staffed by the most energetic and experienced bankers to find ways to recover the bad debts through revival or sale of the sick industry. Nationalised banks then to be privatised after transfer of their bad loans as above.
4)A common market on the lines of the European Union to be initiated by the States of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. Since the hard currency resources need to be preserved in the region, the trading unit between the region to be either Barter Trade through Escrow accounts or Special Drawing Rights (SDR) to reduce dependance on a dollar based settlement system.
5)Free trade between all the member countries of the region with a reciprocal tariff structure.
6)Construction of Kala Bagh Dam to be commenced without delay.
7) WAPDA to be first split into two seperate entities respectively for Power and Water supplies and then further split into managable regional units as subsidiaries. Minority ownership of the units to be privatised.
8) Tax structure to be simplified and revenue base broadened by abolishing numerous taxes like wealth tax, property tax, excise duty and surcharges etc., and replacing them with an across the board tax on consumption.
9) Maximum allocations to be made in the federal budget towards development of Human Resource through education and social reforms.
10)Defence Budget to be reduced in proportion and reciprocally with India in view of a no-war-pact, by placing a moratorium on further recruitments and military hardware purchases.
The way forward for Pakistan in the globalisation trends of next millenium !
Any other path would likely lead to international isolation and further dismembermement of the country.
Comments ?
Zeemax
#428 Posted by zeemax on December 11, 1999 2:06:49 am
Ikkisween Sadi Dastoor - The Millenium Manifesto:
Proposed manifesto of a new political party.
Political :
1) Maintenance and preservation of the 1973 constitution in it`s original form sans all amendments. It is recognised that the 1973 constitution was created with unanimous consent of all the political parties and provinces, hence only the 1973 constitution can safeguard each one`s rights.
2) Freedom of gathering, expression, and speech. Pakistan Television and Radio to be made fully autonomous bodies on the pattern of British Broadcasting Corporation. Ministries of Information at all levels to be abolished.
3) A consensus to be reached on a two party system; Liberal and Conservative; to replace the 20 or so major political parties, in order to end the severe polarisation that exists in the socio-political fabric.
4) Clarification of national identity and the two-nation theory in the light of 52 years of experience. It is felt that the two-nation theory interpreted purely on the basis of religion ceased to be valid after secession of East Pakistan. Interpretation of Two-Nation theory to be reverted to the original basis as envisaged by M.A Jinnah, i.e. economic considerations of the Muslim minority in undivided India. Text Book Board to revise educational text-books in the light of original interpretation of the national identity and meaning of the two-nation theory.
Provinces :
1)The Economic Coordination Council (ECC) to be abolished. All provinces to be made fully autonomous in their revenue and expenditure so any feeling of exploitation of smaller provinces is removed. State Bank to finance any gaps in any provinces` budgets from surpluses of other provinces or from domestic savings at market mark-up rates.
2) Two new provinces to be formed. Karachi and Saraiki. Karachi to include the Karachi city within it`s administrative limits.
Seraiki to include Multan, Dera Ghazi Khan, Shakar Garh, Dera Ismail khan and the Indus West Bank region.
3) NWFP to be renamed as Hazara Pakhtunkhwa.
4) Quota system in government jobs to be abolished. All appointments to be on merit alone.
Foreign Policy :
1)Regional Cooperation For Development (RCD) as initiated by Ayub Khan to be revived. The original membership of RCD consisting Pakistan, Iran and Turkey to be expanded to include India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. The objective of RCD to promote regional understanding through cultural and media exchanges .
2) Irritants to be removed in relations with the USA and the European Union on issues like Terrorism and Drug Enforcement.
3) Complete Disengagement from Afghanistan. Sealing of borders with Afghanistan till the time a stable and representative government is formed in that country. Diplomatic ties to be maintained for advice and influence. It is recognised that active engagement in Afghanistan has done great and perhaps irreperable damage to Pakistan.
4) Status Quo to be maintained in relation with the Gulf States and Saudi Arabia.
Defence :
1) No-War-pact to be signed with India. Bilateral and simultaneous withdrawal from the Line of Control and the International Borders. A summit to be held in either Delhi or Lahore with the single-point agenda to honour the war-dead of both countries.
2) Line of Control to be made permanent into an International Border in return for India agreeing to withdraw from Siachen. Siachen to be declared as no-man`s-land by mutual treaty.
3) Immediate cessation of active militant interference in Kashmir. A recognition and expression of the realities as follows:
a) Kashmir does not belong to Pakistan regardless of historical events during partition, and is not likely to belong to Pakistan even after a referendum or self-determination. If Kashmir thus is a secessionist movement it is an internal matter of India.
b) Human rights violations in Kashmir are wrong and the party will continue to raise it`s voice on purely humanitarian grounds as called for in Chechneya or Kososvo or any other such spots in the world. The Party has faith that the United Nations and other bodies also will intervene to prevent human rights abuses in Kashmir.
c) Pakistan is not at military parity with India nor equipped to to occupy Kashmir by force. Even if it was, it would be an agressive and expansionist act which is morally wrong and unacceptable to the world community. Therefore a complete disavowment of any military action for resolution of the Kashmir dispute.
d) A realisation that although solution of the Kashmir Dispute is ingrained in our hearts by our environmental and political influences, policies of losing Pakistan in the pursuit of gaining Kashmir cannot be sustained.
e) Nuclear program to be maintained in line with the regional balance of power. CTBT to be signed unilaterally as well as the Nuclear Non-Profileration Agreement. Nuclear program to be developed solely on computer simulated testing basis.
Economy :
1) A negotiated debt moratorium on IMF and World Bank loans for a period of two years. Commercial debt like swap loans to be serviced normally in order to keep the commercial debt ratings up.
2) Keynesian model of deficit financing by printing of currency notes to be followed. Production of additional goods and services to match the aditional money in circulation within three months to avoid inflation. Money thus printed to be spent on capital and manpower intensive projects e.g. housing, motorcycles, automobiles and infrastructural projects of roads and telecommunications in order to create jobs and demand to jumpstart the economy out of the current recession. IT Industry to be given special emphasis. Software Parks to be developed in cooperation with the Banglore industry of India.
3) A Resolution Trust Corporation to be formed to buy the defaulted loans of nationalised banks at a viable discounted price. The corporation`s equity to be financed by junk bond flotations on the international market. The corporation to be staffed by the most energetic and experienced bankers to find ways to recover the bad debts through revival or sale of the sick industry. Nationalised banks then to be privatised after transfer of their bad loans as above.
4)A common market on the lines of the European Union to be initiated by the States of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. Since the hard currency resources need to be preserved in the region, the trading unit between the region to be either Barter Trade through Escrow accounts or Special Drawing Rights (SDR) to reduce dependance on a dollar based settlement system.
5)Free trade between all the member countries of the region with a reciprocal tariff structure.
6)Construction of Kala Bagh Dam to be commenced without delay.
7) WAPDA to be first split into two seperate entities respectively for Power and Water supplies and then further split into managable regional units as subsidiaries. Minority ownership of the units to be privatised.
8) Tax structure to be simplified and revenue base broadened by abolishing numerous taxes like wealth tax, property tax, excise duty and surcharges etc., and replacing them with an across the board tax on consumption.
9) Maximum allocations to be made in the federal budget towards development of Human Resource through education and social reforms.
10)Defence Budget to be reduced in proportion and reciprocally with India in view of a no-war-pact, by placing a moratorium on further recruitments and military hardware purchases.
The way forward for Pakistan in the globalisation trends of next millenium !
Any other path would likely lead to international isolation and further dismembermement of the country.
Comments ?
Zeemax
Proposed manifesto of a new political party.
Political :
1) Maintenance and preservation of the 1973 constitution in it`s original form sans all amendments. It is recognised that the 1973 constitution was created with unanimous consent of all the political parties and provinces, hence only the 1973 constitution can safeguard each one`s rights.
2) Freedom of gathering, expression, and speech. Pakistan Television and Radio to be made fully autonomous bodies on the pattern of British Broadcasting Corporation. Ministries of Information at all levels to be abolished.
3) A consensus to be reached on a two party system; Liberal and Conservative; to replace the 20 or so major political parties, in order to end the severe polarisation that exists in the socio-political fabric.
4) Clarification of national identity and the two-nation theory in the light of 52 years of experience. It is felt that the two-nation theory interpreted purely on the basis of religion ceased to be valid after secession of East Pakistan. Interpretation of Two-Nation theory to be reverted to the original basis as envisaged by M.A Jinnah, i.e. economic considerations of the Muslim minority in undivided India. Text Book Board to revise educational text-books in the light of original interpretation of the national identity and meaning of the two-nation theory.
Provinces :
1)The Economic Coordination Council (ECC) to be abolished. All provinces to be made fully autonomous in their revenue and expenditure so any feeling of exploitation of smaller provinces is removed. State Bank to finance any gaps in any provinces` budgets from surpluses of other provinces or from domestic savings at market mark-up rates.
2) Two new provinces to be formed. Karachi and Saraiki. Karachi to include the Karachi city within it`s administrative limits.
Seraiki to include Multan, Dera Ghazi Khan, Shakar Garh, Dera Ismail khan and the Indus West Bank region.
3) NWFP to be renamed as Hazara Pakhtunkhwa.
4) Quota system in government jobs to be abolished. All appointments to be on merit alone.
Foreign Policy :
1)Regional Cooperation For Development (RCD) as initiated by Ayub Khan to be revived. The original membership of RCD consisting Pakistan, Iran and Turkey to be expanded to include India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. The objective of RCD to promote regional understanding through cultural and media exchanges .
2) Irritants to be removed in relations with the USA and the European Union on issues like Terrorism and Drug Enforcement.
3) Complete Disengagement from Afghanistan. Sealing of borders with Afghanistan till the time a stable and representative government is formed in that country. Diplomatic ties to be maintained for advice and influence. It is recognised that active engagement in Afghanistan has done great and perhaps irreperable damage to Pakistan.
4) Status Quo to be maintained in relation with the Gulf States and Saudi Arabia.
Defence :
1) No-War-pact to be signed with India. Bilateral and simultaneous withdrawal from the Line of Control and the International Borders. A summit to be held in either Delhi or Lahore with the single-point agenda to honour the war-dead of both countries.
2) Line of Control to be made permanent into an International Border in return for India agreeing to withdraw from Siachen. Siachen to be declared as no-man`s-land by mutual treaty.
3) Immediate cessation of active militant interference in Kashmir. A recognition and expression of the realities as follows:
a) Kashmir does not belong to Pakistan regardless of historical events during partition, and is not likely to belong to Pakistan even after a referendum or self-determination. If Kashmir thus is a secessionist movement it is an internal matter of India.
b) Human rights violations in Kashmir are wrong and the party will continue to raise it`s voice on purely humanitarian grounds as called for in Chechneya or Kososvo or any other such spots in the world. The Party has faith that the United Nations and other bodies also will intervene to prevent human rights abuses in Kashmir.
c) Pakistan is not at military parity with India nor equipped to to occupy Kashmir by force. Even if it was, it would be an agressive and expansionist act which is morally wrong and unacceptable to the world community. Therefore a complete disavowment of any military action for resolution of the Kashmir dispute.
d) A realisation that although solution of the Kashmir Dispute is ingrained in our hearts by our environmental and political influences, policies of losing Pakistan in the pursuit of gaining Kashmir cannot be sustained.
e) Nuclear program to be maintained in line with the regional balance of power. CTBT to be signed unilaterally as well as the Nuclear Non-Profileration Agreement. Nuclear program to be developed solely on computer simulated testing basis.
Economy :
1) A negotiated debt moratorium on IMF and World Bank loans for a period of two years. Commercial debt like swap loans to be serviced normally in order to keep the commercial debt ratings up.
2) Keynesian model of deficit financing by printing of currency notes to be followed. Production of additional goods and services to match the aditional money in circulation within three months to avoid inflation. Money thus printed to be spent on capital and manpower intensive projects e.g. housing, motorcycles, automobiles and infrastructural projects of roads and telecommunications in order to create jobs and demand to jumpstart the economy out of the current recession. IT Industry to be given special emphasis. Software Parks to be developed in cooperation with the Banglore industry of India.
3) A Resolution Trust Corporation to be formed to buy the defaulted loans of nationalised banks at a viable discounted price. The corporation`s equity to be financed by junk bond flotations on the international market. The corporation to be staffed by the most energetic and experienced bankers to find ways to recover the bad debts through revival or sale of the sick industry. Nationalised banks then to be privatised after transfer of their bad loans as above.
4)A common market on the lines of the European Union to be initiated by the States of Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. Since the hard currency resources need to be preserved in the region, the trading unit between the region to be either Barter Trade through Escrow accounts or Special Drawing Rights (SDR) to reduce dependance on a dollar based settlement system.
5)Free trade between all the member countries of the region with a reciprocal tariff structure.
6)Construction of Kala Bagh Dam to be commenced without delay.
7) WAPDA to be first split into two seperate entities respectively for Power and Water supplies and then further split into managable regional units as subsidiaries. Minority ownership of the units to be privatised.
8) Tax structure to be simplified and revenue base broadened by abolishing numerous taxes like wealth tax, property tax, excise duty and surcharges etc., and replacing them with an across the board tax on consumption.
9) Maximum allocations to be made in the federal budget towards development of Human Resource through education and social reforms.
10)Defence Budget to be reduced in proportion and reciprocally with India in view of a no-war-pact, by placing a moratorium on further recruitments and military hardware purchases.
The way forward for Pakistan in the globalisation trends of next millenium !
Any other path would likely lead to international isolation and further dismembermement of the country.
Comments ?
Zeemax
#427 Posted by bahmad on December 11, 1999 1:42:26 am
Asma Jahangir has published an article in the Herald, Karachi. The summary of this article (below) suggests something interesting. What kind of conflicting experiences and aspirations is she talking about? Has someone read the full article?
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
The Herald, November 1999
A lifetime under the gun (Summary)
By Asma Jahangir
These are sad days for Pakistan. After half a century, we can find no leaders and have to fall back on our old masters, the armed forces, to save us from the ‘evil` politicians that the military establishment had itself groomed for us. Nawaz Sharif and most of his coterie were, after all, the blue-eyed boys of the late Ziaul Haq. But then, in all fairness, the Sharifs and Bhuttos are not the only leadership that we have had. There were others, but their stories, too, only add to the melancholy. In these 50 years, no one has been able to rise to the expectations of the people. Disappointments have been followed by greater disappointments and long before Sharif was overthrown, it had become obvious that we were fast reaching a dead end. Nawaz Sharif, of course, left nothing to chance ensuring that he himself goes down with the rest of us.
As a nation, we are perhaps all children of military rule which may be why so many people are so eager to give the latest military dispensation a chance. They say that the new set-up is different. A modern soldier leads it. From what one has read in newspapers and magazines about him so far, he appears to be a breath of fresh air. I bet he is good company too. But a lifetime of activism has taught me that the company he keeps is not meant for, or fit for, ruling. My quarrel is not with individuals but with the system. It is no fault of the generals. The problem lies within us and our conflicting experiences and aspirations.
-- The Herald
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
The Herald, November 1999
A lifetime under the gun (Summary)
By Asma Jahangir
These are sad days for Pakistan. After half a century, we can find no leaders and have to fall back on our old masters, the armed forces, to save us from the ‘evil` politicians that the military establishment had itself groomed for us. Nawaz Sharif and most of his coterie were, after all, the blue-eyed boys of the late Ziaul Haq. But then, in all fairness, the Sharifs and Bhuttos are not the only leadership that we have had. There were others, but their stories, too, only add to the melancholy. In these 50 years, no one has been able to rise to the expectations of the people. Disappointments have been followed by greater disappointments and long before Sharif was overthrown, it had become obvious that we were fast reaching a dead end. Nawaz Sharif, of course, left nothing to chance ensuring that he himself goes down with the rest of us.
As a nation, we are perhaps all children of military rule which may be why so many people are so eager to give the latest military dispensation a chance. They say that the new set-up is different. A modern soldier leads it. From what one has read in newspapers and magazines about him so far, he appears to be a breath of fresh air. I bet he is good company too. But a lifetime of activism has taught me that the company he keeps is not meant for, or fit for, ruling. My quarrel is not with individuals but with the system. It is no fault of the generals. The problem lies within us and our conflicting experiences and aspirations.
-- The Herald
#426 Posted by satyavadi on December 11, 1999 1:42:26 am
To Pardesi, Gymnosophists and others
Seems like all the intellectuals on Chowk are having a gala time bashing Hindus/Hindu upper castes....
Participants of Hindu origin thrashing the uppercastes, upper caste Hindus being apologetic,
and non-Hindus beating all Hindus with their stinging remarks.. It has become all too common on this forum here, its like upper caste Hindus are everybody`s favorite beating boy..
But pause for a moment and think: Isnt it all getting a bit too jaded, old and repetitive ?
Isnt it time all the original Muslims, Muslim converts from hinduism (no matter when the conversions occured), neo Muslim converts, Sikhs, lower caste Hindus, Pakis , proseletyzing Christians, non-proselytyzing Christians and all other ``victims`` of Brahmin-Baniya oppression,
stop attributing a chunk of miseries to the much derided upper castes ?
All these acts of oppression have occured over a huge span of time although some of them still happening..
But if we cannot blame all the Muslims for what all the Muslim invaders, their heroes, did to the locals, then we cannot also go on taunting the present upper castes for all the sins of their ancestors..
We here a lot of sanctimonious remarks from all the Non -upper catse participants here, but are Muslims and Sikhs free of casteism, free of oppression of some peolple within their folds, by their powerful ? I think not.. If I am not wrong, their is some sort of casteism very prevalent among the Sikhs and is quite close to the Hindu version of it...
One last thing : I agree that Sikhs are a valiant community, they are prosperous, they are loyal, corageous and a lot of other things...
All granted, I hope they stop brandishing how much they have done for India and all that crap...
If they are living under the illusion that India cannot survive without them , that the army will have to be disbanded if they all left, that India would starve without the wheat from Punjab, that all the industry would collapse without them::::
THEY ARE LIVING IN A DREAM WORLD...
No group of people is indispensible, India is not just because of the SIkhs or the Hindus or anyone..
It would be a loss for India, if a valuable group like the Sikhs left its fold, but so would it be if all the Parsis left, or all the Jains left India.. Infact the Parsis and Jains despite their really smaill numbers have contributed enormously to
business and industry in India./. They are the most prosperous communities in India ( more prosperous then the Sikhs, you dont find any one lower than a Middle Class in them) and they contribute humongous amounts to charity..
On the top of it, they never brag about what they are or what they do.. They donot want their ego to be pampered every now and then, by some vindicating thier stand that they are indispensible to India ( which they are not - just like the Sikhs)...
So stop this crap about how much AHSAAN SIKHS have done ion India and rest of Indians.. They have given a lot, but they have benifitted a lot too from the rest of India..
There are other brave Indians -Marathas, more prosperous ones- Gujaratis, Marwaris, Jains, Parsees, and others who produce a lot of food grains- Marathis, Andhra people, Bengal, others who are more culturally rich like the Bengalis and more literate like the Malyalis...
1984 riots were horrible and the perpetrators must be punished, but accept the fact the legal system in India works the way it does, and its not only the
Sikhs who have been denied or delayed justice by it...
Please no more statements about ``Sacrifices of the Sikhs``...We have had enough of it................
Satyavadis
Seems like all the intellectuals on Chowk are having a gala time bashing Hindus/Hindu upper castes....
Participants of Hindu origin thrashing the uppercastes, upper caste Hindus being apologetic,
and non-Hindus beating all Hindus with their stinging remarks.. It has become all too common on this forum here, its like upper caste Hindus are everybody`s favorite beating boy..
But pause for a moment and think: Isnt it all getting a bit too jaded, old and repetitive ?
Isnt it time all the original Muslims, Muslim converts from hinduism (no matter when the conversions occured), neo Muslim converts, Sikhs, lower caste Hindus, Pakis , proseletyzing Christians, non-proselytyzing Christians and all other ``victims`` of Brahmin-Baniya oppression,
stop attributing a chunk of miseries to the much derided upper castes ?
All these acts of oppression have occured over a huge span of time although some of them still happening..
But if we cannot blame all the Muslims for what all the Muslim invaders, their heroes, did to the locals, then we cannot also go on taunting the present upper castes for all the sins of their ancestors..
We here a lot of sanctimonious remarks from all the Non -upper catse participants here, but are Muslims and Sikhs free of casteism, free of oppression of some peolple within their folds, by their powerful ? I think not.. If I am not wrong, their is some sort of casteism very prevalent among the Sikhs and is quite close to the Hindu version of it...
One last thing : I agree that Sikhs are a valiant community, they are prosperous, they are loyal, corageous and a lot of other things...
All granted, I hope they stop brandishing how much they have done for India and all that crap...
If they are living under the illusion that India cannot survive without them , that the army will have to be disbanded if they all left, that India would starve without the wheat from Punjab, that all the industry would collapse without them::::
THEY ARE LIVING IN A DREAM WORLD...
No group of people is indispensible, India is not just because of the SIkhs or the Hindus or anyone..
It would be a loss for India, if a valuable group like the Sikhs left its fold, but so would it be if all the Parsis left, or all the Jains left India.. Infact the Parsis and Jains despite their really smaill numbers have contributed enormously to
business and industry in India./. They are the most prosperous communities in India ( more prosperous then the Sikhs, you dont find any one lower than a Middle Class in them) and they contribute humongous amounts to charity..
On the top of it, they never brag about what they are or what they do.. They donot want their ego to be pampered every now and then, by some vindicating thier stand that they are indispensible to India ( which they are not - just like the Sikhs)...
So stop this crap about how much AHSAAN SIKHS have done ion India and rest of Indians.. They have given a lot, but they have benifitted a lot too from the rest of India..
There are other brave Indians -Marathas, more prosperous ones- Gujaratis, Marwaris, Jains, Parsees, and others who produce a lot of food grains- Marathis, Andhra people, Bengal, others who are more culturally rich like the Bengalis and more literate like the Malyalis...
1984 riots were horrible and the perpetrators must be punished, but accept the fact the legal system in India works the way it does, and its not only the
Sikhs who have been denied or delayed justice by it...
Please no more statements about ``Sacrifices of the Sikhs``...We have had enough of it................
Satyavadis
#425 Posted by SameerJB on December 11, 1999 1:42:26 am
SADNA # 430
My post was really an angry response to the previous two taunting and teasing posts by Jay. My post should have been meant for his eyes only. Here you, Bilal, Umair, Pardesi and others are probably spending hours and burning midnight oil to present their point of wiews and he just lifted couple of minor stories from other websites and posted one after another with taunting remarks.
There may be hundreds of things which could be used to make the point, e.g., I could have said about mountain climbing in northern Pakistan but I wanted to response as succinctly as possible. Yet I intentionally added Miss World and ``Cousins`` because I do feel kinship with the people of India and take pride in the achievements of Indians, irrespective of their religion or ethnicities. Please do not feel bad about one insignificant contribution of mine in response to a specific situation.
BTW, I am envious of your command of english language.
My post was really an angry response to the previous two taunting and teasing posts by Jay. My post should have been meant for his eyes only. Here you, Bilal, Umair, Pardesi and others are probably spending hours and burning midnight oil to present their point of wiews and he just lifted couple of minor stories from other websites and posted one after another with taunting remarks.
There may be hundreds of things which could be used to make the point, e.g., I could have said about mountain climbing in northern Pakistan but I wanted to response as succinctly as possible. Yet I intentionally added Miss World and ``Cousins`` because I do feel kinship with the people of India and take pride in the achievements of Indians, irrespective of their religion or ethnicities. Please do not feel bad about one insignificant contribution of mine in response to a specific situation.
BTW, I am envious of your command of english language.
#424 Posted by somnath on December 11, 1999 1:42:26 am
Dawn: December 10th
NEW YORK, Dec 9: India`s `abysmal` human rights record in Kashmir and its minorities, specially Muslims and Christians, and the torture of Kashmiri militants by its security forces were the centerpiece of Human Rights Watch World report 2000 released on Thursday.
Saying that, ``conflict with Pakistan over Kashmir and communal violence dominated human rights developments in India during the year,`` the Human Rights Watch (HRW) noted, ``while Pakistan demanded UN mediation in the Kashmir dispute, the Indian Prime Minister rejected an offer by the UN secretary-general to send an envoy. In a report issued in January, the UN special Rapporteur on torture commented on India`s abysmal record on torture and detentions, specially in Jammu and Kashmir, and noted with regret the government`s continued refusal to extend him an invitation to conduct investigations in the country.``
``Also in January, the special Rapporteur on contemporary forms of racism indicated that, with the permission of the Indian government, he might undertake a field mission to investigate the situation of `untouchables` in the country.``
The HRW also chided the international community for failing to persuade India`s BJP government to `curb human rights abuses` in Kashmir in the aftermath of the Kargil crisis.
The report said, ``Indian security forces in Jammu and Kashmir continued to violate human rights with impunity. The Jammu and Kashmir Disturbed Areas Act and the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, which authorize warrantless searches and arrests, remained in effect in the state. Military-led cordon-and-search operations in Muslim neighbourhoods continued to result in violations of fundamental civil rights, including the detention, torture, and summary executions of suspected militants.``
The report said, ``the Hindu nationalist Indian People`s Party (BJP), which led India`s coalition government during the year, appeared to condone the activities of right-wing Hindu groups responsible for attacks on religious minorities and people at the bottom of or outside India`s caste system, including members of tribal groups. The attacks increased significantly in the months preceding national parliamentary elections in September and October.
``In Bihar, a series of caste clashes and massacres between January and April once again revealed the unwillingness of state authorities to protect the rights of those born into lower castes. The commission also ordered the payment of compensation to the families of persons who had either died as a result of police violence or had been physically assaulted by the police, and recommended action against guilty police officials.``
The report observed that in February, Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee`s bus trip across the Indo-Pakistan border to meet the then Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif seemed to signal the beginnings of a reconciliation and hopes for a resolution of the Kashmir conflict. However, those hopes were short-lived. In April India tested ballistic missiles and Pakistan followed suit. In May, after Muslim fighters crossed from Pakistan into Indian Kashmir near the town of Kargil, India responded with military operations against them and their Pakistani backers.
Armed clashes between India and Pakistan continued for the next eight weeks, until Pakistan agreed to withdraw the militants, and both countries agreed on a process of `disengagement.`
In the course of those clashes, over 1,200 people, many of them civilians, were killed by artillery fire. Civilians were also forced to flee the towns along the 720-kilometre border that divides Indian and Pakistani-controlled Kashmir. Communal violence between Hindu and Muslim groups escalated during the military confrontation, particularly in Jammu, the Hindu-majority area of the state of Jammu and Kashmir.
Observing that ``Caste violence assumed alarming dimensions early in the year, particularly in the state of Bihar, where clashes between the Ranvir Sena, an upper-caste landlord militia, and Naxalites, Maoist guerillas agitating for higher wages and more equitable land distribution for lower-caste labourers, claimed many lives, the Human Rights activists charged the state administration with criminal negligence for failing to intervene effectively and prosecute those responsible for the killings. On Jan 25, about 100 armed extremists from the Ranvir Sena killed at least 22 Dalit (untouchable) men, women, and children in Bihar`s Jehanabad district. On February 10, Sena members struck again in the same district killing eleven Dalits as they slept.``
The massacres led the government in New Delhi to impose ``president`s rule`` in Bihar, a legal regime whereby the central government takes over authority from the state. Despite that measure, which led to the increased presence of paramilitary forces in the state, 12 alleged supporters of the Ranvir Sena were reportedly gunned down on February 14 by Communist Party of India-Marxist Leninist (Liberation) activists in retaliation for the January killings. In early March the central government reinstated the state government led by Chief Minister Rabri Devi. On March 18, Naxalites killed another 35 upper-caste villagers in Senari village, Jehanabad district. On April 21, about 100 armed activists from the Ranvir Sena killed 12 lower-caste villagers in neighbouring villages in Gaya district.
The victims included a 65-year-old man, three women, and a 9-month-old child. Police made little effort to prevent the killings, despite the fact that the Ranvir Sena often publicly announced its intentions days before each attack. They also failed to provide protection for villagers in the aftermath of such attacks.
Caste clashes also continued to plague the southern state of Tamil Nadu, and Dalit women were primary targets. On March 29, in the Ogalur-Villupuram region of Tamil Nadu, four upper- caste men sexually assaulted a female Dalit farm labourer. The attackers were then beaten by those responding to the labourer`s cry for help. On April 3, in retaliation for the beatings, three upper-caste men set fire to a Dalit colony, injuring 20 people. On June 19 a gang of upper-caste Hindus looted and destroyed the houses in a Dalit settlement in Kodankipatti village, Madurai district, after Dalits there had demanded a share in the common property of the village. The Dalits were then chased out of their homes.
On the plight of India`s Christain community, the HRW said, ``more incidents of violence against India`s Christian community were recorded during the past two years than in all the years since independence. Attacks occurred primarily in the tribal regions of Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh, and Orissa, as well as the state of Maharashtra. Activists belonging to militant Hindu extremist groups, including the Bajrang Dal and the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (World Hindu Council, VHP) were often blamed for the violence.
While the central government officially condemned the attacks, spokespersons for the BJP characterized the surge in violence as a reaction to a conversion campaign by Christian missionaries in the country. Anti-Christian violence in the state of Gujarat reached its peak during Christmas week 1998 when a local extremist Hindu group obtained permission to hold a rally on Dec 25 in Ahwa town in the state`s southeastern Dangs district. Over 4000 people participated in the rally, shouting anti-Christian slogans while the police stood by and watched. After the rally, Hindu groups began to attack Christian places of worship, schools run by missionaries, and shops owned by Christians and Muslims. Between December 25, 1998, and January 3, 1999, churches and prayer halls were damaged, attacked, or burned down in at least 25 different villages in the state.
On January 23 in Keonjhar district, Orissa, a mob of Hindu extremists burned to death Australian missionary Graham Stewart Staines and his two sons as they slept in their car. Staines had worked for over 30 years in a leper colony in the state and was accused of conducting mass conversions to Christianity. In August a government-appointed judicial commission accused Bajrang Dal activist and BJP member Dara Singh of leading the charge in the killings. The commission`s report also found that Staines had not been involved in any conversions.
On Shiv Sena`s role in its campaign against the Muslims, the HRW said, ``the Shiv Sena, a Hindu party which heads the state government of Maharashtra in coalition with the BJP, also engaged in disruptive practices and hate campaigns against Muslims and Christians throughout the year. In December 1998, the award-winning film `Fire` by director Deepa Mehta, was recalled from theatres after Shiv Sena activists vandalized at least 15 cinemas where it was being screened. Sena members objected to the film`s depiction of a lesbian relationship between two Hindu sisters-in-law, adding that had the women been Muslim there would be no objection.
In January 1999, when Pakistan`s cricket team was set to travel to India for a series of test matches, members of the Shiv Sena dug up the pitch at a New Delhi stadium that was to host the first match and ransacked the headquarters of the Board of Control for Cricket in Bombay. In June, the Shiv Sena launched a series of attacks against Christian mission- run kindergarten schools alleging that they were not admitting the children of Sena activists.
On June 26 suspected Sena members vandalized the Sacred Heart school in Worli, Bombay.``
On August 26 Staines` killer Dara Singh struck again, when he led an angry mob to attack the garment shop of Sheikh Rehman, a Muslim trader in Orissa`s Mayurbhanj district. In the presence of 400 eyewitnesses and in broad daylight, Rehman`s arms were chopped and his body was set on fire. Singh continued to evade arrest despite his numerous television appearances in the months following the Staines murder. One week later, on September 2, the Rev. Arul Doss was killed by a gang of 15 unidentified assailants. Voting in Orissa for the staggered general elections was scheduled for September 25. On September 20, a Catholic nun in Bihar was abducted by two men, stripped, and forced to drink their urine. The nun was reportedly interrogated about her proselytizing activities.
On violence during the elections the HRW said ``Violence remained a salient feature of India`s national parliamentary elections. During five stages of polling in September and October 1999, repolling was ordered for hundreds of poll stations as a result of violence and the destruction of ballot papers and ballot boxes. Well over 100 election-related deaths were reported throughout the country, predominantly in Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh, Kashmir, Bihar, and the northeast region of Assam and Tripura.
In the Chidambaram constituency of Tamil Nadu, Dalits were not allowed to vote in as many as 23 villages as a result of attacks by political parties contesting elections in which the Dalit Panthers of India were also candidates. In clashes that ensued, nearly ten Dalit hamlets were torched. While over 200 Dalits were arrested, police refused to register cases against caste Hindus.
Police in Andhra Pradesh continued to summarily execute suspected Naxalites in so-called ``encounter killings.`` Violence in the northeastern states, particularly Assam, continued throughout the year, claiming many civilian casualties.
The Armed Forces Special Powers Act remained in effect in the northeast, but it was not the only abusive law on the books. Due to the spurious backdating of violations, detentions under the notorious Terrorist and Disruptive Practices (Prevention) Act (TADA) continued for offences allegedly committed before the law lapsed in 1995. In Karnataka, for example, 52 people remained in pre-trial detention in Mysore Central Prison for periods ranging from four to six years.
On the issue of violation of women`s rights the HRW noted ``women, particularly those belonging to the lower castes, continued to be victims of violence and sexual abuse. In a positive step to promote gender equality, the Supreme Court of India gave women the same rights as men to act as natural guardians of a minor. Gita Hariharan`s application for financial bonds in the name of her minor child had been rejected by the Reserve Bank of India on the basis of the Hindu Minority and Guardianship Act of 1956, which regards the father, and only after him the mother, as the natural guardian of a minor. The Supreme Court ruled that the provision ``after`` had to be struck down from the act as it violated gender equality``
#423 Posted by SameerJB on December 11, 1999 1:42:26 am
ROOHIAD # 431
Did you notice in this statement than it was pre planned:
``The decision was unanimously of the military and the people of Pakistan. The decision was not my alone. I am an optimist and I would love to do anything for Pakistan,`` the CE said.
So what is all that nonsense about ``spontaneous reaction to his sacking``. They had already made the decision to overthrow the elcted Government. Rest of the drama is just to fill in the blanks, just like movies songs are written to fit the story.
Did you notice in this statement than it was pre planned:
``The decision was unanimously of the military and the people of Pakistan. The decision was not my alone. I am an optimist and I would love to do anything for Pakistan,`` the CE said.
So what is all that nonsense about ``spontaneous reaction to his sacking``. They had already made the decision to overthrow the elcted Government. Rest of the drama is just to fill in the blanks, just like movies songs are written to fit the story.
#422 Posted by fuzair on December 10, 1999 6:38:26 pm
Re: Gymnosophist #372
You say: [ Do you agree that the paramountcy issue was dredged up by
Corfield so that he could do the right thing by the maharajahs? ]
Actually, no. Corfield interpreted the treaties according to his reading of them. And
he convinced the Sec. State India. My point was not that the princes deserved to
rule but that legally they had the right to do so AND the right to declare
independence. The issue was up to the courts to decide (the House of Lords, not
the Indian courts--although the Lords would have probably voted against the
princes, but one never knows...), not Patel or Mountbatten. Thus the Indians had no
legal/moral claim to annexation.
James has been criticized for being an apologist for the Raj and for being a journalist
not an academic. I read Hodson`s work about 12 years ago and found it to be
particularly turgid but that is besides the point. If the interview with Radcliffe`s
secretary was in 1992, then obviously Hodson could not have had access to it when
he wrote his original work (though, isn`t there a revised edition out?). Unless the
secretary is (i) senile, or (ii) lying, his eyewitness account of this sort of pressure
applied on Radcliffe by Mountbatten goes far to prove the Pakistani assertion that
the boundary award was rigged. Many Pakistanis swear that there were maps
showing Gurdaspur etc. in Pakistan. James`s is the first independent corroboration
I`ve seen of this.
You say: [ The one state that could have maintained independence was
Travancore-Cochin because it had access to the sea. Every large state --
Hyderabad, Mysore, Kashmir -- was landlocked. The tiny states of
Kathiawar were too small to be able to stand alone even though
some of them had sea access. Independence for the states would mean that
they would become hotbeds for intrigue just as they were
when the British landed.]
Since when has access to the sea been the sine qua non of statehood? What about
landlocked states such as Paraguay or Bolivia or Laos?
You say:[ Why do you forget the fact that India accepted that paramountcy
would lapse and actively recruited the princely states into an Indian
Union? That the various princes faced the facts that they were anachronisms
and accepted their fates however grudgingly? And that
Pakistan benefited equally by being able to get Kalat which is probably 80%
of Baluchistan?]
Most princes did ``voluntarily`` handed over their states to India. But, that does not
mean that India had the right to take the states did not do so. Once again, we return
to the ``might makes right`` rule that I referred to earlier. The fact that India (or
Pakistan) could militarily take over the states does not mean that they had the legal
right to do so.
You say: [ If Pakistan was for the Muslims of the subcontinent, then Jinnah
should have stopped with Kalat, Swat, and Bahawalpur. Why talk to
Jaisalmer and Udaipur on the basis that they are Rajputs? After all, Jaisalmer
and Udaipur are Hindu and Patiala is Sikh. The fact is that
you see a major cognitive dissonance between the speeches and actions of
Jinnah and try to reconcile it on the basis of ethnicity now. If
so, why did the Sindhi Hindus migrate en masse to India or the Punjabi
Hindus? Their ethnicities are not different from Pak Sindhis or Pak
Punjabis.]
Um, actually no. I wasn`t trying to justify it. I was merely pointing out what the
ostensible reason was. These two are not the same thing. I agree that the mass
emigration of the Hindu middle class from Sindh/Karachi and the importation of
Muhajirs was the death of Sind but thats also not relevant here.
You say:[ At all points in time, might is right. Let us not even get into the fact
that there is a certain religious ethos that pervades India based on
Hinduism. And that ethos includes Goa and Kashmir. But not the Northeast.
But the reality today is that India is trying to build a
nation-state on the concept of Indian citizenship for its people]
True but again irrelevant. Might is always right. But, if so, why didn`t the British
have the ``right`` to continue on after 1947? You haven`t said why British colonialism
was so bad but Indian colonialism is so good. If India is now attempting some
devolution of power from the center and limited home-rule, that still does not negate
the illegality of the original takeover. By your reasoning, the Govt. of India Act of
1935 and the decision to let India become a Dominion at some point in the future
legitimized the original takeover.
I don`t have a soft spot for the Portugese. I think the Brits should have kicked them
out long ago. But that would have been an illegal act. If one respects rule of law,
then one is against things like that. And hasn`t India always tried to take the
legalo-moralic (Hey! Coining new terms here!) high ground and sneered at us
Pakistanis for our many coups and umpteen constitutions?
You say: [There was never much conviction that Pakistan would be granted in the
minds of the Muslim League leaders but Mountbatten called their bluff. One
does not have to read that book Sole Spokesman to realize
that Jinnah was looking only for more concessions for the Muslims. But never
did any of the players ever come out and lay the cards on
the table as to what would be acceptable guarantees. That, and the personal
lack of warmth between Jinnah and the Congress crowd,
were the true causes of partition.]
Actually, Jinnah did. He accepted the Cabinet Mission plan which provided for, I
believe, a Western, Central, and Eastern India--i.e., roughly what is now Pakistan,
India and Bangladesh but with huge non-Muslim minorities in these two Muslim
majority regions. So it was to be a weak confederation of states. Jinnah said that
the ten-year opt-out clause was safeguard enough for Muslim rights. Nehru had
been secretly shown the plan first by Mountbatten, agreed to it (as he thought Jinnah
would say no to it), and then was stuck when Jinnah said yes. Nehru then argued
that the opt-out clause was just as bad as Partition and so he could agree to this
proposal--all this after already having said yes to the plan.
Mountbattena and Nehru decided to call Jinnah`s bluff because they thought that
Pakistan would collapse within ten years and come crawling back to be readmitted
to India. Things did not quite turn out that way.
You say: [ The entire Congress leadership was imprisoned and their
publications banned. Thus the call to the masses for civil disobedience could not
reach them. Plus the Muslim League was actively cooperating with the British
Raj. And the economic situation was so dire that people
were willing to join the army for the chance of three square meals a day.
You forget that in 1946 there were mutinies in the Navy and Air Force as well. And
after the show trials of the INA personnel, the British
Commander-in-Chief commuted their sentences, freeing them immediately.
That tells you that the British did not want a full scale mutiny of
even a few regiments on their hands.]
But the Congress governments in the states had the time to get the call out before
they were all imprisoned. Didn`t do much good did it? The Army leadership wanted
to have mass courts-martial but they were overruled by the British politicians who
had already decided to quit India and wanted no controversies on their hands.
The Navy and Air Force mutinies were inspired by RAF mutinies in India and were
irrelevant to the Army--the only force that mattered. In fact, Indian troops were
used to suppress the naval mutineers. I asked my great-uncle, a Lieutenant in the
Royal Indian Navy in WWII, if the Navy was actually rotten? His view was that the
mutiny was the result of a particularly bad set of officers on that particular ship and
that no mass RIN mutiny was likely. He was asked by his British CO if the men
were going to mutiny and he assured him that they were sound. And they were.
I asked other relatives of mine who served in the Army in WWII if the Army would
have remained loyal if the British had decided to stay on and rule by force. To a
man they replied that the loyalty of the Punjabi (Muslim, Sikh, and Hindu), Gurkha,
and Rajput elements was never in doubt. The Pathans would probably stay loyal
since most of them thought that Bacha Khan was a Congress stooge anyway.
Maybe the Bengali and some other minorities within the army might mutiny but that
would be minor since the vast majority of the Army would back the Raj.
Any evidence of this? Look at what happened to those INA officers who tried to
have themselves reinstated in the Indian Army. Despite Kaul`s and Nehru`s best
efforts, the Indian Army`s general officers stated categorically that no INA men
would ever be allowed back in. And none were. The generals were willing to
swallow a lot from the politicians but they were not willing to let traitors back in and
pretend that the INA was anything other than a Japanese front organization.
You say:[ The British would never have allowed the industrialization of India if
they had stayed....]
There is of course no evidence of this. The impetus for Indian industrializaton was
actually WWII but the Tatas, etc, existed before WWII, of course. After WWII,
even the most reactionary Brit (i.e., Churchill and Co.) had granted India`s right to
self-government. Continuing industrializaton was of course going to be a part of this
move to dominion status. Speaking of infrastructure, India still has more miles of
railway and canal built before Partition than after it. Roads are a different matter but
no one can seriously argue that the British would have actively prevented the
industrialization of India after WWII. In fact, a crash industrializaton program would
probably have been implemented.
You say: [I do not think so; in fact a greater percentage of jobs in the railways and
the army are set aside for the Sikhs than their 2% population would warrant.]
True but irrelevant. The Sikhs want it thrown open for merit competition, especially
in the Army so that the Army could again be Sikh-dominated. Their point is that
why should qualified Sikhs be denied places and promotions because the politicians
decree that the South Indians or Dalits or whoever are to be favored?
Now its your turn to rebut me. This can go on forever. So, I propose that we agree
to disagree and move on to another topic. We could join the other discussion thats
going on, the one about Kashmir.
I remember hearing a joke almost twenty years ago that went something like this:
The simple truth of the matter was that neither India nor Pakistan actually wanted a
plebiscite in Kashmir. Why not? Simple. The Indian Kasmiris would vote for
Pakistan and the Pakistani Kasmiris would vote for independence.
Regards.
You say: [ Do you agree that the paramountcy issue was dredged up by
Corfield so that he could do the right thing by the maharajahs? ]
Actually, no. Corfield interpreted the treaties according to his reading of them. And
he convinced the Sec. State India. My point was not that the princes deserved to
rule but that legally they had the right to do so AND the right to declare
independence. The issue was up to the courts to decide (the House of Lords, not
the Indian courts--although the Lords would have probably voted against the
princes, but one never knows...), not Patel or Mountbatten. Thus the Indians had no
legal/moral claim to annexation.
James has been criticized for being an apologist for the Raj and for being a journalist
not an academic. I read Hodson`s work about 12 years ago and found it to be
particularly turgid but that is besides the point. If the interview with Radcliffe`s
secretary was in 1992, then obviously Hodson could not have had access to it when
he wrote his original work (though, isn`t there a revised edition out?). Unless the
secretary is (i) senile, or (ii) lying, his eyewitness account of this sort of pressure
applied on Radcliffe by Mountbatten goes far to prove the Pakistani assertion that
the boundary award was rigged. Many Pakistanis swear that there were maps
showing Gurdaspur etc. in Pakistan. James`s is the first independent corroboration
I`ve seen of this.
You say: [ The one state that could have maintained independence was
Travancore-Cochin because it had access to the sea. Every large state --
Hyderabad, Mysore, Kashmir -- was landlocked. The tiny states of
Kathiawar were too small to be able to stand alone even though
some of them had sea access. Independence for the states would mean that
they would become hotbeds for intrigue just as they were
when the British landed.]
Since when has access to the sea been the sine qua non of statehood? What about
landlocked states such as Paraguay or Bolivia or Laos?
You say:[ Why do you forget the fact that India accepted that paramountcy
would lapse and actively recruited the princely states into an Indian
Union? That the various princes faced the facts that they were anachronisms
and accepted their fates however grudgingly? And that
Pakistan benefited equally by being able to get Kalat which is probably 80%
of Baluchistan?]
Most princes did ``voluntarily`` handed over their states to India. But, that does not
mean that India had the right to take the states did not do so. Once again, we return
to the ``might makes right`` rule that I referred to earlier. The fact that India (or
Pakistan) could militarily take over the states does not mean that they had the legal
right to do so.
You say: [ If Pakistan was for the Muslims of the subcontinent, then Jinnah
should have stopped with Kalat, Swat, and Bahawalpur. Why talk to
Jaisalmer and Udaipur on the basis that they are Rajputs? After all, Jaisalmer
and Udaipur are Hindu and Patiala is Sikh. The fact is that
you see a major cognitive dissonance between the speeches and actions of
Jinnah and try to reconcile it on the basis of ethnicity now. If
so, why did the Sindhi Hindus migrate en masse to India or the Punjabi
Hindus? Their ethnicities are not different from Pak Sindhis or Pak
Punjabis.]
Um, actually no. I wasn`t trying to justify it. I was merely pointing out what the
ostensible reason was. These two are not the same thing. I agree that the mass
emigration of the Hindu middle class from Sindh/Karachi and the importation of
Muhajirs was the death of Sind but thats also not relevant here.
You say:[ At all points in time, might is right. Let us not even get into the fact
that there is a certain religious ethos that pervades India based on
Hinduism. And that ethos includes Goa and Kashmir. But not the Northeast.
But the reality today is that India is trying to build a
nation-state on the concept of Indian citizenship for its people]
True but again irrelevant. Might is always right. But, if so, why didn`t the British
have the ``right`` to continue on after 1947? You haven`t said why British colonialism
was so bad but Indian colonialism is so good. If India is now attempting some
devolution of power from the center and limited home-rule, that still does not negate
the illegality of the original takeover. By your reasoning, the Govt. of India Act of
1935 and the decision to let India become a Dominion at some point in the future
legitimized the original takeover.
I don`t have a soft spot for the Portugese. I think the Brits should have kicked them
out long ago. But that would have been an illegal act. If one respects rule of law,
then one is against things like that. And hasn`t India always tried to take the
legalo-moralic (Hey! Coining new terms here!) high ground and sneered at us
Pakistanis for our many coups and umpteen constitutions?
You say: [There was never much conviction that Pakistan would be granted in the
minds of the Muslim League leaders but Mountbatten called their bluff. One
does not have to read that book Sole Spokesman to realize
that Jinnah was looking only for more concessions for the Muslims. But never
did any of the players ever come out and lay the cards on
the table as to what would be acceptable guarantees. That, and the personal
lack of warmth between Jinnah and the Congress crowd,
were the true causes of partition.]
Actually, Jinnah did. He accepted the Cabinet Mission plan which provided for, I
believe, a Western, Central, and Eastern India--i.e., roughly what is now Pakistan,
India and Bangladesh but with huge non-Muslim minorities in these two Muslim
majority regions. So it was to be a weak confederation of states. Jinnah said that
the ten-year opt-out clause was safeguard enough for Muslim rights. Nehru had
been secretly shown the plan first by Mountbatten, agreed to it (as he thought Jinnah
would say no to it), and then was stuck when Jinnah said yes. Nehru then argued
that the opt-out clause was just as bad as Partition and so he could agree to this
proposal--all this after already having said yes to the plan.
Mountbattena and Nehru decided to call Jinnah`s bluff because they thought that
Pakistan would collapse within ten years and come crawling back to be readmitted
to India. Things did not quite turn out that way.
You say: [ The entire Congress leadership was imprisoned and their
publications banned. Thus the call to the masses for civil disobedience could not
reach them. Plus the Muslim League was actively cooperating with the British
Raj. And the economic situation was so dire that people
were willing to join the army for the chance of three square meals a day.
You forget that in 1946 there were mutinies in the Navy and Air Force as well. And
after the show trials of the INA personnel, the British
Commander-in-Chief commuted their sentences, freeing them immediately.
That tells you that the British did not want a full scale mutiny of
even a few regiments on their hands.]
But the Congress governments in the states had the time to get the call out before
they were all imprisoned. Didn`t do much good did it? The Army leadership wanted
to have mass courts-martial but they were overruled by the British politicians who
had already decided to quit India and wanted no controversies on their hands.
The Navy and Air Force mutinies were inspired by RAF mutinies in India and were
irrelevant to the Army--the only force that mattered. In fact, Indian troops were
used to suppress the naval mutineers. I asked my great-uncle, a Lieutenant in the
Royal Indian Navy in WWII, if the Navy was actually rotten? His view was that the
mutiny was the result of a particularly bad set of officers on that particular ship and
that no mass RIN mutiny was likely. He was asked by his British CO if the men
were going to mutiny and he assured him that they were sound. And they were.
I asked other relatives of mine who served in the Army in WWII if the Army would
have remained loyal if the British had decided to stay on and rule by force. To a
man they replied that the loyalty of the Punjabi (Muslim, Sikh, and Hindu), Gurkha,
and Rajput elements was never in doubt. The Pathans would probably stay loyal
since most of them thought that Bacha Khan was a Congress stooge anyway.
Maybe the Bengali and some other minorities within the army might mutiny but that
would be minor since the vast majority of the Army would back the Raj.
Any evidence of this? Look at what happened to those INA officers who tried to
have themselves reinstated in the Indian Army. Despite Kaul`s and Nehru`s best
efforts, the Indian Army`s general officers stated categorically that no INA men
would ever be allowed back in. And none were. The generals were willing to
swallow a lot from the politicians but they were not willing to let traitors back in and
pretend that the INA was anything other than a Japanese front organization.
You say:[ The British would never have allowed the industrialization of India if
they had stayed....]
There is of course no evidence of this. The impetus for Indian industrializaton was
actually WWII but the Tatas, etc, existed before WWII, of course. After WWII,
even the most reactionary Brit (i.e., Churchill and Co.) had granted India`s right to
self-government. Continuing industrializaton was of course going to be a part of this
move to dominion status. Speaking of infrastructure, India still has more miles of
railway and canal built before Partition than after it. Roads are a different matter but
no one can seriously argue that the British would have actively prevented the
industrialization of India after WWII. In fact, a crash industrializaton program would
probably have been implemented.
You say: [I do not think so; in fact a greater percentage of jobs in the railways and
the army are set aside for the Sikhs than their 2% population would warrant.]
True but irrelevant. The Sikhs want it thrown open for merit competition, especially
in the Army so that the Army could again be Sikh-dominated. Their point is that
why should qualified Sikhs be denied places and promotions because the politicians
decree that the South Indians or Dalits or whoever are to be favored?
Now its your turn to rebut me. This can go on forever. So, I propose that we agree
to disagree and move on to another topic. We could join the other discussion thats
going on, the one about Kashmir.
I remember hearing a joke almost twenty years ago that went something like this:
The simple truth of the matter was that neither India nor Pakistan actually wanted a
plebiscite in Kashmir. Why not? Simple. The Indian Kasmiris would vote for
Pakistan and the Pakistani Kasmiris would vote for independence.
Regards.
#421 Posted by rajanjua on December 10, 1999 6:38:26 pm
Re: #430 Amit
Dear Amit Sahib,
Thanks for the reference on Babur Nama. I also had some questions on Hinduism as a religion. Do you have a good reference on the history of how the customs and beliefs of aryans evolved into present day customs and rituals of Hindus, etc., e.g., What is the origin of holi- I read parts of Rigveda and the Upanishads a long time back- What is the stature of Gita, Ramayana and Mahabharta-are they also considered sacred texts?Which text is considered as the foundation.
It is interesting how certain cutoms remain with you even with the change of religion, e.g., the Muslims in the Indo-Pak subcontinent have a custom called ``soem``-On the third day of the death of a loved one-his/hers family members gather and recite Quran. If I remember correctly, this is a Hindu custom (excluding the recitation of Quran ofcourse), which we have kept. My Wahabi friends keep reminding me that I should not attend this Hindu ritual-and I ofcourse do that in honor of my Hindu anscestors.
Regards,
Amir
Dear Amit Sahib,
Thanks for the reference on Babur Nama. I also had some questions on Hinduism as a religion. Do you have a good reference on the history of how the customs and beliefs of aryans evolved into present day customs and rituals of Hindus, etc., e.g., What is the origin of holi- I read parts of Rigveda and the Upanishads a long time back- What is the stature of Gita, Ramayana and Mahabharta-are they also considered sacred texts?Which text is considered as the foundation.
It is interesting how certain cutoms remain with you even with the change of religion, e.g., the Muslims in the Indo-Pak subcontinent have a custom called ``soem``-On the third day of the death of a loved one-his/hers family members gather and recite Quran. If I remember correctly, this is a Hindu custom (excluding the recitation of Quran ofcourse), which we have kept. My Wahabi friends keep reminding me that I should not attend this Hindu ritual-and I ofcourse do that in honor of my Hindu anscestors.
Regards,
Amir
#420 Posted by rajanjua on December 10, 1999 6:38:26 pm
Re: #430 sadna
Dear Sadna,
``Whether you ask me or not, here is an answer. I repeat myself, but it seems called for.``
My post was directed only to Jay Sahib, becuase he seems to relish comparing India and Pakistan-and wants to prove that everything is peachy and hunky-dory in India whereas everything is rotten about Pakistan. Why even my friend gymnosophist once in a while points out some inherent problems in India.
``Pakistani view of the subcontinent(from your perspective):
All Indian problems stem from fundamental flaws in the idea of `India` itself. Setting themselves high standards in the last 52 years and falling short in them in any respect, is a result of basic problems in Indian nationhood itself. Indians cannot be abused enough for living in a `dream world` where they imagine they are better off than Pakistan (and Pakistani strategic policy seems to be aimed at getting rid of this delusionary `dream world` ).``
Exactly what made you think that this is my perspective? Since, you don`t know my views or my perspective you should`nt assume things on your own. You can always ask.
Regards,
Amir
Dear Sadna,
``Whether you ask me or not, here is an answer. I repeat myself, but it seems called for.``
My post was directed only to Jay Sahib, becuase he seems to relish comparing India and Pakistan-and wants to prove that everything is peachy and hunky-dory in India whereas everything is rotten about Pakistan. Why even my friend gymnosophist once in a while points out some inherent problems in India.
``Pakistani view of the subcontinent(from your perspective):
All Indian problems stem from fundamental flaws in the idea of `India` itself. Setting themselves high standards in the last 52 years and falling short in them in any respect, is a result of basic problems in Indian nationhood itself. Indians cannot be abused enough for living in a `dream world` where they imagine they are better off than Pakistan (and Pakistani strategic policy seems to be aimed at getting rid of this delusionary `dream world` ).``
Exactly what made you think that this is my perspective? Since, you don`t know my views or my perspective you should`nt assume things on your own. You can always ask.
Regards,
Amir
#419 Posted by tvarad on December 10, 1999 6:38:26 pm
RE: Reply #: 419 rajanjua
``Why is it that you have no problems believing that Pakistanis massacred Bengalis, yet at the same time you are convinced that the Indians are not doing the same thing to Kashmiris. What is your criteria for coming up with this opinion? Would you believe the reports on Indian brutality in Kashmir, only when the West starts making an issue of it?``
What is ``large scale`` for you? Would you like a million Kashmiris to lay down their lives before you support their movement for self-determination?``
I believe the point I`m raising here is not whether the Kashmiris are showing sufficient sacrifice for their uprising to be considered legitimate but that Pakistan is in no position to criticize what India is doing in Kashmir given the dismal record of it`s army in Bangladesh.
In addition, pouring gasoline on the Kashmir fire which India is trying to put out and saying that India is stoking the fires is not exactly passe. Even the whole world said as much during the Kargil episode.
See the difference?
``Why is it that you have no problems believing that Pakistanis massacred Bengalis, yet at the same time you are convinced that the Indians are not doing the same thing to Kashmiris. What is your criteria for coming up with this opinion? Would you believe the reports on Indian brutality in Kashmir, only when the West starts making an issue of it?``
What is ``large scale`` for you? Would you like a million Kashmiris to lay down their lives before you support their movement for self-determination?``
I believe the point I`m raising here is not whether the Kashmiris are showing sufficient sacrifice for their uprising to be considered legitimate but that Pakistan is in no position to criticize what India is doing in Kashmir given the dismal record of it`s army in Bangladesh.
In addition, pouring gasoline on the Kashmir fire which India is trying to put out and saying that India is stoking the fires is not exactly passe. Even the whole world said as much during the Kargil episode.
See the difference?
#418 Posted by amit on December 10, 1999 4:35:41 pm
Re: rajanjua#420
Amir Sahib,
The origin of the word Hindu is from the word Sindhu which was used in ancient days to describe the Aryan people who lived along the Sindhu river i.e. Indus river. That would basically imply the present day territory of Pakistan. The word Sindhu in Sanskrit means Sea, which was the name that the Aryans gave to the Indus river. The Persians corrupted the word Sindhu to Hindu due to their style of pronounciation.
The Aryan rituals got consolidated to create Vedic Hinduism. Vedic Hinduism did not have idol worship and it allowed consumption of beef as well as intoxicants like ``somras``. In fact, the vedas actually praise beef as a delicacy to be consumed during sacrifices. As the Aryans spread all over the subcontinent, they took their Vedic religion and mixed it with local religious rituals to create the present day Hinduism with all its facets. Even then inhabitants in the subcontinent did not call themselves hindus.
As time went on, the region of Pakistan was called Sindh while India was known as Hind, although everyone was collectively referred as hindus by outsiders. Within the subcontinent, the term hindu was not popular. The term got popularized in the subcontinent by the Muslim invaders. They started calling everyone Hindus and this trend continues till today. Interestingly even as people in Pakistan became Muslims, they were still referred to as Hindus by people in the middle east and central asia. In his memoirs Baburnama, Babar repeatedly refers to people living in eastern Afghanistan and Peshawar areas as Hindustanis!! After all the Pakhtun tribes have their origins as Sanskrit speaking Aryan tribes although by the time of Babar, they had long embraced Islam. Babar refers to the rest of the people in India as Hindus. So there is a differentiation between Hindustanis and Hindus although Babar criticizes both quite viciously in Baburnama.
Regards,
Amit
Amir Sahib,
The origin of the word Hindu is from the word Sindhu which was used in ancient days to describe the Aryan people who lived along the Sindhu river i.e. Indus river. That would basically imply the present day territory of Pakistan. The word Sindhu in Sanskrit means Sea, which was the name that the Aryans gave to the Indus river. The Persians corrupted the word Sindhu to Hindu due to their style of pronounciation.
The Aryan rituals got consolidated to create Vedic Hinduism. Vedic Hinduism did not have idol worship and it allowed consumption of beef as well as intoxicants like ``somras``. In fact, the vedas actually praise beef as a delicacy to be consumed during sacrifices. As the Aryans spread all over the subcontinent, they took their Vedic religion and mixed it with local religious rituals to create the present day Hinduism with all its facets. Even then inhabitants in the subcontinent did not call themselves hindus.
As time went on, the region of Pakistan was called Sindh while India was known as Hind, although everyone was collectively referred as hindus by outsiders. Within the subcontinent, the term hindu was not popular. The term got popularized in the subcontinent by the Muslim invaders. They started calling everyone Hindus and this trend continues till today. Interestingly even as people in Pakistan became Muslims, they were still referred to as Hindus by people in the middle east and central asia. In his memoirs Baburnama, Babar repeatedly refers to people living in eastern Afghanistan and Peshawar areas as Hindustanis!! After all the Pakhtun tribes have their origins as Sanskrit speaking Aryan tribes although by the time of Babar, they had long embraced Islam. Babar refers to the rest of the people in India as Hindus. So there is a differentiation between Hindustanis and Hindus although Babar criticizes both quite viciously in Baburnama.
Regards,
Amit
#417 Posted by amit on December 10, 1999 4:35:41 pm
Re: Umairr#403
You have asked some very interesting questions about the rise of BJP in India. Basically Indian society is going through unprecedented change as the ancient upper caste hindu domination is decreasing rapidly. This is happening due to the success of democracy as well as economic liberalization. People belonging to the lower strata are becoming aware of their rights and are demanding their share of the national pie. They have become result oriented and expect the government to perform. The Congress party was basically a party that was dominated by upper caste hindus. It symbolized the maintenance of status quo by adopting an inclusive agenda but it actually kept power in the hands of upper caste hindus. The decline of Congress and the rise of regional parties as power brokers represents this new system shaping up in India.
The rise of BJP has been a reaction to this phenomenon of empowerment by the lower castes. Upper caste hindus felt challenged by the evolving scenario and they started supporting BJP since it was unambiguous about championing upper caste interests. The policy was to exploit communal feelings and create a common hindu identity under the leadership of upper caste hindus. If you remember, right before the Babari Masjid incident, the Mandal commission report was released by the Vishwanath Pratap Singh government that extended reservations and affirmative action to backward castes. Previously reservations were for only the lowest castes called the Scheduled Castes. The Mandal commission report called for a massive increase in reservations, that would seriously hurt the upper caste monopoly in public sector jobs. There were furious protests by upper caste youths, several of whom committed suicide. Interestingly, the BJP`s call for Ram Mandir became more intense around this time (1989-90). This was no coincidence but a deliberate strategy.
During the nineties, BJP used this initial momentum to build up its base and it has grown ever since. Some things have changed since then. By the end of the eighties, Indian economy was in terrible shape thanks to the socialist policies. This was creating massive social tensions and secessionist movements. Thanks to economic liberalization by Manmohan Singh and PV Narasimha Rao, the economy started growing rapidly. This growth of the national pie reduced the chances of an explosive caste conflict. The focus was now on getting a stable government that could function and deliver results. BJP had always supported free market economy and it seemed like the right party to lead, as long as it softened its communal image. That is exactly what happened and BJP has considerably toned down its views.
In any event, the communal strategy of BJP was always a convenient tool to overcome the caste demographics in hindu society. After all upper caste hindus are only around 30% of the hindu population but they do not want to lose their clout. As long as the economy grows, everything is fine. There are certainly some elements like the VHP, Bajrang Dal etc., who operate purely on communal grounds, but they are a small minority. Historically hindus have never really been united on the basis of religion, which is why they lost to all the invaders. This has not really changed.
You have asked some very interesting questions about the rise of BJP in India. Basically Indian society is going through unprecedented change as the ancient upper caste hindu domination is decreasing rapidly. This is happening due to the success of democracy as well as economic liberalization. People belonging to the lower strata are becoming aware of their rights and are demanding their share of the national pie. They have become result oriented and expect the government to perform. The Congress party was basically a party that was dominated by upper caste hindus. It symbolized the maintenance of status quo by adopting an inclusive agenda but it actually kept power in the hands of upper caste hindus. The decline of Congress and the rise of regional parties as power brokers represents this new system shaping up in India.
The rise of BJP has been a reaction to this phenomenon of empowerment by the lower castes. Upper caste hindus felt challenged by the evolving scenario and they started supporting BJP since it was unambiguous about championing upper caste interests. The policy was to exploit communal feelings and create a common hindu identity under the leadership of upper caste hindus. If you remember, right before the Babari Masjid incident, the Mandal commission report was released by the Vishwanath Pratap Singh government that extended reservations and affirmative action to backward castes. Previously reservations were for only the lowest castes called the Scheduled Castes. The Mandal commission report called for a massive increase in reservations, that would seriously hurt the upper caste monopoly in public sector jobs. There were furious protests by upper caste youths, several of whom committed suicide. Interestingly, the BJP`s call for Ram Mandir became more intense around this time (1989-90). This was no coincidence but a deliberate strategy.
During the nineties, BJP used this initial momentum to build up its base and it has grown ever since. Some things have changed since then. By the end of the eighties, Indian economy was in terrible shape thanks to the socialist policies. This was creating massive social tensions and secessionist movements. Thanks to economic liberalization by Manmohan Singh and PV Narasimha Rao, the economy started growing rapidly. This growth of the national pie reduced the chances of an explosive caste conflict. The focus was now on getting a stable government that could function and deliver results. BJP had always supported free market economy and it seemed like the right party to lead, as long as it softened its communal image. That is exactly what happened and BJP has considerably toned down its views.
In any event, the communal strategy of BJP was always a convenient tool to overcome the caste demographics in hindu society. After all upper caste hindus are only around 30% of the hindu population but they do not want to lose their clout. As long as the economy grows, everything is fine. There are certainly some elements like the VHP, Bajrang Dal etc., who operate purely on communal grounds, but they are a small minority. Historically hindus have never really been united on the basis of religion, which is why they lost to all the invaders. This has not really changed.
#416 Posted by sadna on December 10, 1999 4:35:41 pm
Umairr # 412
``I think all forced occupations should be stopped, and one should do whatever one can to struggle against them. They are nothing, but a sign of misplaced egos, and have terrible long term consequences``
About Afghanistan and Talibanization:
In the late eighties, a fellow student of mine was an Afghan woman pursuing higher professional studies in India, on leave from a government job back home in Afghanistan. She told me of personal losses of family, home and daily hardship faced due to fighting in Afghanistan, the killing of civilians right before her eyes. She used to say, ``Indians work too hard, in school to go to college, in college to get a job, etc. In Afghanistan, things had not been so difficult, she said, there was much more to go around.`` She said women had traditionally a fair amount of freedom. About the troubles in Afghanistan, she said, the Saudis and Pakistan are funding the Sunnis, Iran is funding the Shias, US and Soviet Union are funding their own support bases in Afghanistan(it was the period of Najibullah, I think, with Soviet Army in place).
When I think of what could be her condition now, forcefully cloistered at home(she was unmarried and her brother had been missing even then), not allowed to earn her living in an honorable manner, not allowed to seek even a doctor`s care, a masters in electrical engineering with years of technical expertise and education deemed worthless now, only because of her gender, I am compelled to at least speak when the fate of millions of other women in the region are similarly trifled with, by men wielding guns and professing religion or `principle`.
Nothing can can emulate the depravity of what was allowed to happen to Afghan women by the selfish arrogance of the world. The great victory of Capitalism vs Communism, of `ideas` of the great intellectuals of this so-called moral and civilised world has been won at the dreadful cost of these women. While the West is celebrating its prosperity after the end of the Cold War, all moral posturing or savoring of fruits of victory only present an obscene contrast to the Afghan womens` condition. They were pawns in others` games, they were denied any choice and they are today powerless to effect the slightest change in their destiny.
The Pakistani public and Armed establishment are highly complicit in bringing about and condoning this situation as are Arab fund providers, all `Haajees`, I`m sure, and their Western allies who have eyes only for Bin Laden and Central Asian/Middle Eastern oil. My contention is, if we are talking about `moral` causes, let us look at the urgent business awaiting us across the western borders of Pakistan, too.
Sadhana
``I think all forced occupations should be stopped, and one should do whatever one can to struggle against them. They are nothing, but a sign of misplaced egos, and have terrible long term consequences``
About Afghanistan and Talibanization:
In the late eighties, a fellow student of mine was an Afghan woman pursuing higher professional studies in India, on leave from a government job back home in Afghanistan. She told me of personal losses of family, home and daily hardship faced due to fighting in Afghanistan, the killing of civilians right before her eyes. She used to say, ``Indians work too hard, in school to go to college, in college to get a job, etc. In Afghanistan, things had not been so difficult, she said, there was much more to go around.`` She said women had traditionally a fair amount of freedom. About the troubles in Afghanistan, she said, the Saudis and Pakistan are funding the Sunnis, Iran is funding the Shias, US and Soviet Union are funding their own support bases in Afghanistan(it was the period of Najibullah, I think, with Soviet Army in place).
When I think of what could be her condition now, forcefully cloistered at home(she was unmarried and her brother had been missing even then), not allowed to earn her living in an honorable manner, not allowed to seek even a doctor`s care, a masters in electrical engineering with years of technical expertise and education deemed worthless now, only because of her gender, I am compelled to at least speak when the fate of millions of other women in the region are similarly trifled with, by men wielding guns and professing religion or `principle`.
Nothing can can emulate the depravity of what was allowed to happen to Afghan women by the selfish arrogance of the world. The great victory of Capitalism vs Communism, of `ideas` of the great intellectuals of this so-called moral and civilised world has been won at the dreadful cost of these women. While the West is celebrating its prosperity after the end of the Cold War, all moral posturing or savoring of fruits of victory only present an obscene contrast to the Afghan womens` condition. They were pawns in others` games, they were denied any choice and they are today powerless to effect the slightest change in their destiny.
The Pakistani public and Armed establishment are highly complicit in bringing about and condoning this situation as are Arab fund providers, all `Haajees`, I`m sure, and their Western allies who have eyes only for Bin Laden and Central Asian/Middle Eastern oil. My contention is, if we are talking about `moral` causes, let us look at the urgent business awaiting us across the western borders of Pakistan, too.
Sadhana








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