Again, Desperate Times

JERNAILE MUTTERRAF SAYS THAT THE CONSPIRACY TO OVERTHROW ELECTED GOVERNMENT WAS UNANIMOUS.

I have attached a news item from an english daily from Pakistan namely ``The Nation`` of 9-Dec-1999.

QUOTE `` Takeover decision was unanimous, says CE

ISLAMABAD (Agencies)-Defending his action of sacking the Nawaz Sharif government, Chief Executive General Pervez Musharraf has said that prior to Army takeover Pakistan was being mishandled terribly and its economy was in tatters.

``Provinces were developing cracks. Governance was not in existence. Therefore whatever happened was for the sake of Pakistan and Insha`allah we will prove it to the world to do something for the people of Pakistan,`` General Musharraf said in an interview with the Financial Times.

``The decision was unanimously of the military and the people of Pakistan. The decision was not my alone. I am an optimist and I would love to do anything for Pakistan,`` the CE said.

He expressed satisfaction over the performance of his government so far and strongly rejected criticism of delay in taking decisions. ``I am totally satisfied with the pace``.

Listing what he described as his government`s achievements, General Musharraf said, ``We have put the government in place. We have put the national Security Council, selected the cabinet, the governors and their cabinets. We have selected the IGs and DIGs and are selecting the commissioners. We have put the National Reconstruction Bureau, National Accountability Bureau. We had put the monitoring system in place. All these are achievements of two months``.

``Unfortunately the people are impatient. I would like to say one should understand what are the issues involved. Changes do not take place overnight,`` the Chief Executive insisted. UN-QUOTE.

My Comment: Well! you say the economy was in tatters, but now we see that the economy is with mutters, all fingers in ghee. Jernaile Mutt Ji don`t say that the people approve your evil designs. People await your evil end. And if that`s what your achievement is in 2 months, that you have nominated like minded dictators in public sector, I know we are doomed. GO AWAY MILITARY DICTATOR, LEAVE US ALONE.

Roohi A. Ditta

#421

Whether you ask me or not, here is an answer. I repeat myself, but it seems called for.

Pakistani view of the subcontinent(from your perspective):

All Indian problems stem from fundamental flaws in the idea of `India` itself. Setting themselves high standards in the last 52 years and falling short in them in any respect, is a result of basic problems in Indian nationhood itself. Indians cannot be abused enough for living in a `dream world` where they imagine they are better off than Pakistan (and Pakistani strategic policy seems to be aimed at getting rid of this delusionary `dream world` ).

Pakistani nationhood on the other hand has always been on a sound footing, all problems are only just awaiting resolution by collective will or some shining figure with a sword. The role of lying and cheating foreigners who deny Pakistan its just due cannot be abused enough.

At least half the energy of the Pakistani intellect is used to take issue with India`s faults, I wonder, is it because many Pakistanis feel that Indian affairs are more amenable to Pakistani actions than Pakistani affairs themselves?

If you ask me(and you don`t), Pakistan is like any fledgeling nation(like India) with its share of problems and a lot more going for it than many other countries in the world. (I believe this after reading Emma Duncan`s book). The Pakistani public has time and again made its strength felt to its leaders and must continue to do so. However, the biggest handicap that Pakistan suffers from more any country (except maybe Israel) is a blind hatred of a neighbour. This is an unnecessary burden that is sapping Pakistan`s energies and objectivity about itself. Israel sustained itself on the support of the West and its historical imperatives were different. Pakistan, currently, it seems(I may be wrong), has to figure things out for itself.

SameerJB #116 from `In Defence..`

Not quite right. A large number of Indians consider themselves part of a Indian `majority`, mainly because their ethnicities have been protected to a large extent. And the diversity of the country has worked well in everyone`s favor on many fronts analogous to ```many` heads are better than one``. In mathematical terms, BJP`s hoped-for common denominator tunrs out to be only one factor of a much larger number.

I am sure strength in diversity ought to hold good in Pakistan, too.

BTW, there is a lot more to subcontinental values and experiences than are attributable to highly- politicised issues like `India/Pakistan`, `majority/minority`, `British Raj/Mughals`, `history/geography`, `identity/unity`, `Hindu/Muslim`, `BJP/JI`, etc

You might find the following article worth reading.

http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/dec/02kp.htm

The strange case of Shantaram Ganiga

I wanted to ask, what do chowk.com and its intelligent and lively posters envisage as their role in bringing about positive developments in Pakistani affairs?

Sadhana

SameerJB #345

Dear Sameer Sahib: SS (Salamallecum Salam)

Thanks for your insights regarding pre -1984 Punjab. Those events were very traumatic for us who thought that we the Sikhs were not just 2% of Indian population but we have taken Thekka, forever, to worry about India. I guess the best thing that Indian government has done by putting limits on Sikh recruitment is that the Punjabi Jats are now all into businesses, software or just getting out of India. In my humble opinion, any one of these options is better than joining the army.

However, the reason Bhindrawale was so successful with young Sikhs at the time was in his simplicity of message. His point was that why should India put limit on Sikhs in army when there are no limits on Hindu Baniyas on how many businesses they can own. Free enterprise as we know in USA means, if blacks are good in Basketball let them be 80-90% of the major leaguers. If Jews are good in high finance let them control the Wall Street. In USA, each state competes against each other to attract foreign investment. Bhindrawale believed that Punjab is not allowed to grow to the next plateau of prosperity through fair competition since all of the major economic levers are in New Delhi controlled by parliamentary majority from cow belt states. Every one knows that the corrupt bureaucracy and politicians would not know fairness and morals even if they run into it.

Where he went wrong was in his assumption that 1) it was a Hindu conspiracy against Sikhs and 2) being a Sikh it’s his moral duty to fight injustice with guns because that’s our legacy.

Let’s look at the first part. He was totally wrong here. Hindu upper caste and Indira especially, didn’t and have never given a damn about poor folks. The Hindu teachings and the religious stories are oriented towards preaching you to be a good provider and responsible to your family. In short, great family values. What’s missing is social morality or conscience which makes you feel guilty when you see other people hungry or without clothes. Taking this argument further, what’s lacking is a sense of fairness and fair competition. In that sense Mahatma Gandhi was trying to bring in Christian values and trying to rejuvenate Indians without letting them know it (so that it does not hurt any one’s pride) by keep singing his Hindu hymns. To make long story short, after Mahatma Gandhi’s death we all were drifting back to our norm and Bhindrawale took it as if Sikhs are the only victim. Actually, the ruling upper castes are equal opportunity oppressors.

The second part is more related to unique Sikh history. They are taught to be fearless and they assumed that ultimately truth will prevail but they will have to suffer a lot. Are they up to it this time? I do not believe so. India’s army is much more powerful than Aurangjeb’s. These cunning rulers have total control over media. They are trained in Oxford and Cambridge and are very sophisticated with word usage and the art of parsing statements in their favor. Will it sound right if it’s claimed that terrorists and fundamentalists are using religious places for narrow political ends and threaten that unique beacon of secularism with a billion souls? In right circumstances, one could have said that a peasant leader was trying to tell those corrupt, powerful and immoral rulers that let each state have more powers to work towards their own upliftment and that good ideas can also come from a minority of Sikh peasants and are not monopoly of upper caste brown Englishmen. Needless to say, Bhindawale needed a crash course in workings of Madison Avenue. Congress created that image of Indira Gandhi clad in sari in national colors and Rajiv standing next to her at proper angle and height so that ordinary villagers can see in them ``Bharat Mata`` and her son without whom India will collapse. Bhindhrawale looked like a jihadi and that was it.

I think that’s enough for now. More some other time.

Best regards.

They got a nice beating in Kargil. So they have to shamelessly cook up show trials and lock up people in financial difficulties to get legitimacy. He wants to show himself as a hero in a leather jacket like General Tance in the `Night of the Generals driving around in Warsaw`. More apt example is Orwell`s ``shooting the elephant`` where the colonial master has to shoot a docile elephant to show to the natives that he is charge. The man is incapable of inspiring a nation. An authentic hero would have called upon the nation to rise to the occasion, work hard and reinvent itself. He could have gone to the people and taken the nation in confidence. What difference would it make if he explains the salient features of the defence of Pakistan to the people ? A public debate on this subject alone could lead to a new consensus and maybe new ideas for a more optimum defense posture. If he cannot reinvent the Pakistan army and other military forces in this environment without infact preparing for the security of the country in the next century he should be sent home - rather to Kakul to serve as a drill sargeant. And as far as the economic and overall security environment is concerned why does he not visit factories and schools to rally a flagging nation. One suspects that somebody from the military music school would have done better by striking up the band.

Ref rajanjua #: 421

You say {And gymnosophist, I asked Jay Sahib this question, not you.}

I know I have been reducing your analyses to the absurdities they are. But this acknowledgement from you is really sweet.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

PS. Don`t have a cow.

sadna # 366

Thanks for your note. However, I would be less than honest if I didn’t let you know that wounds are indeed very very deep. After those unfortunate events, Sikhs were forced to examine their roots, assumptions about their relationship with Hindus and indeed India itself. This is a very broad and painful topic which if you wish I could talk in more details some other time. I just wish that no community anywhere has to go through what Sikhs had to suffer at the government sponsored massacre at the hands of Hindus during those early days of November ’84.

Now I realize that I should not lump every Hindu as part of that crowd which pulled Sikhs out of the trains and literally burned them alive. Sikh engineers in Jamshedpur steel plant were thrown alive into the furnaces. Totally organized, Hindu goons marked Sikh houses with paint (using the voter lists) in advance of the actual murderous parties. I can also tell you that my family’s cow belt state was not disturbed for first two days and killings started only after local young/upcoming career minded congressmen got Chuddiyan (glass bangles?) from Delhi and then ofcourse they had to prove themselves like young mafiosies who have to commit few murders to ``make bones``.

Some Hindus in New Delhi did in fact save their Sikh neighbors by hiding them. There were no riots in Bengal or South India in general as far as I can remember since these were non-congress states. However, I would blame the collective majority of Hindus who rewarded Rajiv (right after he ordered massacres) with the most parliamentary seats congress ever got. Now I am not going to buy the argument here that well it was a sympathy vote after Indira’s murder. Do these people have any conscience, morals or they just act out of their own narrow selfish interests of the moment even when their neighbors are being butchered?

Did any Hindu religious leaders (Shankaracharyas?) speak out, even after the fact, for inquiry so that these things do not happen again? You know that in the country we live in, the Churches do speak up (some time little late though) about injustices so that accountability is established. Are Indian religious leaders meant only to perform Havans and talk about next or past life or do they have any relevance to day to day miseries of their people? I am equally scornful of Akali leaders or whatever their titles are at Amritsar temple, when they do not open their mouths forcefully whenever same kind of things happen to Muslims, Christians or Dalits.

Is it not better to forgive so that the pain or anger does not cloud our vision? Yes. You see, Christians are big on forgiveness. However, coupled with that are corrective mechanisms such as inquiry and accountability. What really disturbs me about India is that none of the culprits has been punished and these things are bound to happen again under one or the other pretext. Whether next victims are Christians, Muslims, Dalits or Sikhs again, who knows? And to the victims, does it really matter if the murderers are Congressmen or BJP members?

Sadhanaji, you must be saying to yourself, why did I get in this argument. Well, I had to vent out my frustration and there we are.

Regards.

somnath # 417

Your statement {``allurement`` has been redefined in this Bill as ``offer of any temptation in the form of gift, gratification, either in cash or kind, or any material benefit``, all the activities of the missionary health and educational institutions are likely to fall under the purview of the police Inspector.}

Comment: This is indeed very disturbing development. What Gujratis are saying in effect is that as long as Christians run very good schools so that Hindu middle class is trained to earn money in India or overseas, it’s fine. Also, these fanatics would not mind if Christians take care of their sick people lying on the streets (Mother Teresa?). However, if the poor or backward people dare to call themselves George or Tom, rather than Ram or Krishna, the missionaries would be prosecuted at best or burned alive at worst.

And I always thought that Gujrat and Maharashtra are outside the cow belt.

In response to sadna (Reply # 415):

Dear Sadhana:

Your statement: ``. . . being a responsible Pakistani or an Indian, from countries of many million people, entails thinking about many more factors in any political issue than the artificially isolated problem of ones` own emotional inclinations. Ideally, the objective of any political resolution would require all parties to be satisfied, especially at the emotional level, but such an ideal requires more understanding of the issue from the many participants than the mere reiteration of their demands.``

Comment: I fully agree with your thoughts. You have taught us a good lesson. However, the kind of resolution that you are suggesting requires a lot of patience and peaceful effort.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Re: #404 jay

Jay Sahib,

You keep missing the point. Let me reiterate again-you just might get it this time. Jinnah did`nt have a vision of an Islamic Republic-He wanted a secular republic. The present constitution was not written by him. The present constitution is a blemish on his vision which he described in very clear terms in his speech to the First Constituent Assembly of Pakistan. There are a lot of people in Pakistan and certainly almost every Pakistani on Chowk who would like to have the Pakistan of Jinnah`s dream. We would like these crappy amendments to be thrown out and placed with garbage where they belong.

We openly admit that there are multitude of problems in Pakistan and we would like them resolved. You on the other hand are living in a dream world surrounded by ``Nuclear weapons``, ``one of the largest armed forces in the world``, ``miss galaxies from India``,``top 100 lists of great people in the world from India``, ``largest democracy in the world``, ``secular and tolerant government``,....And these things are good enough for you to ignore thousands and thousands of ``nangay-bhookay`` in Bharat. You are in denial, Sir-Wake up!! Do something about the mess created by Advani, et. al. If you want to go somewhere compare yourself with China or U.S. and not Pakistan.



You have`nt answered my question, though. And gymnosophist, I asked Jay Sahib this question, not you.

Amir Janjua

Re: #407 macgupta

``1. The meaning of ``Hindutva`` depends on who is speaking about it.

``Hindu`` at one time meant everyone in India. ``Hindu`` also has the modern meaning of a some one of a particular religion (or set of religious beliefs).``

I remember reading a parable by Rumi which goes like this:

`` Two Hindu muslims were offering namaz when one of them started talking .....``

My great-grandfather once recalled that he was adressed by Arabs as a Hindu when he went to perform Haj :-). I guess its very recent that people have started using the word Hindu in terms of religion rather than nationality.

Do you know anything more about this? Like the time frame of transition, etc.

Amir Janjua

Re: 416 tvarad

``India clamped down and there was major unrest, Kashmiri leaders were jailed and there was loss of life but at no time was there the kind of large scale massacres that occured in Bangladesh (if I ever believed that such a thing was happening in Kashmir, I would be the first to call for outright Kashmiri independence and I am sure most Indians would too).``

Why is it that you have no problems believing that Pakistanis massacred Bengalis, yet at the same time you are convinced that the Indians are not doing the same thing to Kashmiris. What is your criteria for coming up with this opinion? Would you believe the reports on Indian brutality in Kashmir, only when the West starts making an issue of it?

What is ``large scale`` for you? Would you like a million Kashmiris to lay down their lives before you support their movement for self-determination?

Amir Janjua

THEY WANT TO HANG HIM WITHOUT ALLOWING THE DEFENSE TO EXAMINE THE WITNESS.

An Interesting report published in the Daily NEWS of December 8, 1999.

Quote `` Prosecutors decline to provide copies of tapes in Nawaz case due to aviation laws

(Updated at 2145 PST)

KARACHI: Prosecutors, on Thursday, said they were unable to provide copies of audio and video tapes and transcripts to the defence in the treason and murder conspiracy case against deposed prime minister Nawaz Sharif.

Chief Public Prosecutor Raja Qureshi, in an application to the Anti-terrorism Court, said the reason behind this was the international civil aviation laws and rules which required maintaining the secrecy of data collected by aviation authorities.

He further said the releasing copies of the tapes would tarnish the image of the country`s Civil Aviation Authority and ``Pakistan could adversely be affected internationally in the field of aviation, if such sensitive or secret recordings are made known to the public at large at this stage.``

However, the prosecution asked permission to play five spools of the audio recordings at the next hearing to be held on Monday.`` Un-quote.

Chowk Friends please note that in this modern world, video tapes and audio tapes can be easily dubbed to get desired results. These tapes, fabricated by prosecution will have to be examined for its authenticity; which for sure prosecution is trying to avoid. And these tapes will have to be played again and again; listen to it carefully; to determine the continuity, flow and in-depth determination of facts, if any on these tapes. In game of power, the villians always have false proofs, and since these proofs are fabricated, they are very protective towards it. ALLAH BLESS PAKISTAN and hell with jernaile Mutter and party.

Rahul Khan

To macgupta, gymnosophist, the happy one, anarayn, Jay, and other secular minded Indians:

Would like to know your opinion about this Gujarat religion Bill.

The following is an article from The Hindustan Times:

Christians wary of Gujarat religion Bill

Rathin Das (Gandhinagar, December 8)

Christians in Gujarat, particularly in the southern region of the State where they have been attacked by Hindu fundamentalists, are getting increasingly wary about a Bill that comes up for discussion in the Assembly at its next session.

BJP legislators in Gujarat are preparing to pass a Bill that would make religious conversions a punishable offence. The person effecting a conversion or making an attempt to convert could attract a jail term of up to three years and fine of Rs 2,000 or both. In case the ``victim`` of ``conversion`` is a minor or a woman or a member of

a Scheduled Caste or Scheduled Tribe, the severity of the punishment could be harsher. The ``offence`` of conversion of a member of a Scheduled Caste or Scheduled Tribe is to be deemed an atrocity on them. Legal luminaries say if it indeed becomes law, it could violate Article 25 of the Constitution that provides for freedom to propagate religion.

Named, ironically, `The Gujarat Freedom of Religion Bill, 1999``, the proposed legislation seeks to restrict the freedom of an individual to change his or her religion. Introduced in the State Assembly as a private member`s Bill on August 30, it is to be discussed in the next session of the House in February-March.

Given the BJP`s absolute majority in the 182-member Assembly, the smooth passage of the Bill is a foregone conclusion. However, legal experts are pessimistic about such an Act getting the President`s assent, which is essential for it to become law.

Moved by Mr Maganbhai Patel, the BJP MLA from Mansa, the introduction to the Bill says ``it is necessary to provide protection to persons against forced conversions by fraudulent means``.

It had been the contention of the Sangh Parivar that tribals in southern and eastern Gujarat are being converted by missionaries to Christianity through ``fraudulent means``. The Bill`s provisions, if made into law, are likely to open a Pandora`s Box as these could be used for harassment of religious preachers through debatable definitions of ``allurement``, ``force`` or ``fraudulent means``.

The Gujarat Freedom of Religion Bill seeks to make conversion a cognisable offence that merits investigation by an officer not below the rank of an Inspector of Police. Since ``allurement`` has been redefined in this Bill as ``offer of any temptation in the form of gift, gratification, either in cash or kind, or any material benefit``, all the activities of the missionary health and educational institutions are likely to fall

under the purview of the police Inspector.

RE: Reply #412 Umairr

RE: ``Being a Pakistani, I have openly stated, that East Pakistanis should have been given a peaceful right of self-determination by West Pakistan, if the East Pakistanis did not want to be a part of Pakistan. So far, for some reason, I have found very few people from India who are willing to make such a statement about Kashmir.``

We are comparing apples and oranges here. Firstly, East Pakistanis never wanted outright independence but autonomy and genuine representation and sharing of power with West Pakistan. The call for independence was given after Awami League won outright power in the elections held by Yahya Khan and West Pakistani military/politician nexus voided these elections, threw Mujibur Rehman into prison and started pogroms against the Bangladeshis.

In Kashmir, the Rajiv Gandhi Government in collusion with Farook Abdullah truly foisted an unpopular government on Kashmir by rigging elections in 1989 which caused a mass uprising in Kashmir. India clamped down and there was major unrest, Kashmiri leaders were jailed and there was loss of life but at no time was there the kind of large scale massacres that occured in Bangladesh (if I ever believed that such a thing was happening in Kashmir, I would be the first to call for outright Kashmiri independence and I am sure most Indians would too). There could have been the kind of settlement that was reached in Punjab had Pakistan not muscled into the action. Per se, India is not averse to a truly representative government within the Indian Union. There have been instances where rebel leaders have gone on to power (Assam being a prime example). This is what politics is about and this is what you fail to understand.

Right now I know that what India is doing in Kashmir is not easy to defend but more importantly, India is standing up to the thugs that have run Pakistan into the ground to feather their own nests. They have been using Kashmir as a drug are refusing to see the writing on the wall.

Umairr #411, #412

Giving objective answers to your `objective` arguments is like water off a ducks back, because you invariably retreat to the emotional one. As you term yourself a Pakistani, you might realise that being a responsible Pakistani or an Indian, from countries of many million people, entails thinking about many more factors in any political issue than the artificially isolated problem of ones` own emotional inclinations. Ideally, the objective of any political resolution would require all parties to be satisfied, especially at the emotional level, but such an ideal requires more understanding of the issue from the many participants than the mere reiteration of their demands.

I am now inclined to think that if Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Afghanistan had been functioning democracies(which the US, a great democracy, has never really pushed for), the Kashmir issue would have been a lot easier for India to solve as the path followed would have been more democratic and in favour of the common people affected, rather than influenced by international money power, gun power and muscle power exerted from a safe distance to serve external interests (in a kind of cariacature of what has already happened in Afghanistan and apparently, to some extent in Pakistan).

Sadhana

IT`S THE ARMY

Reference Umairr reply # 413

Well dear friends! Normalization with India is something that the Pakistan army is resisting so far. If we normalise with India, then there is no justification for maintaining such a heavy head and the worthless army any longer. The Pakistan army generals have always opposed to this. One thing is for sure that Mian Nawaz Sharif, the constitutional Prime Minister of Pakistan had taken quite a few concrete steps in this direction taht resulted Clintons` interest towards resolution of Kashmir. Nawaz had realized that prosperity of Pakistani masses is not possible without cutting the defense spendings and increase of spending on state welfare budget. So Lahore Agreement was initiated, and the Pakistan army generals, launched Kargil, a mis-adventure that everyone knows, aimed at sabotaging the process. Then army threw out elected government, all this was to stop the normalization process with India. Friends of Chowk, can a poor country like ours continue to feed a huge army; and its generals like Musharraf and others, who have amassed 9 to 11 plots of residential lands and agricultural lands, just because of their employment with army; and are claiming clean. While the rightful owners of the land, the people of Pakistan live such miserable life. I quote Faiz... ``Dekein gaye hum dakein gaye, Lazim haye keh hum bhi dakein gaye``. People of Pakistan, it is not Benazir, Zardari or Nawaz Sharif, it is these corrupt generals. Pakistanis must raise their voice against this armed oppression before its too late, and the dream is lost.

Roohi A. Ditta