Again, Desperate Times

Re: Nashat, FH, Tahmed321, Fuzair

Thanks for your all kind responses. I`m learning alot!!! History is written by the victors and thats why we hear about ``great`` Monty!!! who is noting but the most overrated, over cautious general and unimaginative commander in WWII. He was unscrupulous enough to employ Gen. Auchinleck plan in North Africa campaign without giving any credit to him.

Maj. Gen. Iftikhar full name might Iftikhar Khan and he got killed in 1971 during Indo-pak war. He was actually leading attack on Pahlanwala..

(The artist formerly known as UR :))

Bahmad Re 122: I am familiar with Tariq Ali, and have read some of his articles. If I am remember correctly, I believe Tariq Ali, alongwith Benazir Bhutto, are the only two Pakistanis to lead the Oxford Students Union (or something of that sort). Anyways, I am familiar with him. I still have not formed an opinion about him, though.

It is difficult for me to comment on statements from NCOs from the 1965 war; I do not have any personal experiences from that time.. I also cannot comment about what happened in Baluchistan, because my knowledge about those events is very limited.

If you were to ask me whether the Pakistani military and other militaries of the world use some form of torture on prisoners to get information out of them, my answer would be more than likely, ``yes.`` If you were to ask me whether individuals of the Pakistani miliary have carried out physical accesses against the civilians, again my answer would be, ``more than likely, yes.``

However the question under discussion here is different. I very highly doubt that the Pakistani (or Indian) militaries, would ever mutilate bodies of dead soldiers, as a form of military policy. It has never been a policy of the Pakistani miliary to, ``rape, pillage and burn.`` When that has happened, they were actions of individuals, or individual commanders. However, mutilating bodies, and then giving them to India would indicate an official gesture from the Pakistani military; this would not be an individual`s act. Because of this, I highly doubt it happened. What would Pakistan gain from it? The Indian fighter pilot who was shot down, was returned safe and sound, why mutilate the bodies of other soldiers?

Secondly, this complete debate of mutilating soldiers is based on, ``he said, she said.`` And I do not believe such arguments, without proof. I consider them a waste of time.

nashat: Reply 123: I prettly much agree with everything you have stated.

Fuzair:``BTW, what was your arm`` Sounds like you have made the assumption that I was in Army. I have had a chance to work with Army officers for around two years. I very briefly spent some time with SSG guys (very fine people) at Peshawar, also. I attended a year long training program with 15 Naval officers. I wouldn`t be surprised, if at least one of them died in the two recent Naval aircraft crashes. As for myslef, I was in the Air Force, and not the Army. The training and education of all three branches of the militaries overlaps, quite a bit.

Re : Narain # 149

The simple question that I ask which noone seems to answer is that while the public seems to want to hang Nawaz for being autocratic, they choose the ultimate autocracy of the military in his place? For what ever Nawaz was, he was answerable and accountable to the law as well as to the people and last but not the least to the Armed Forces; While the Armed Forces are not accountable and answerable to anyone..

I think it has a lot to do with the anthems of 1965 .. `` Mera mahi chel chabeela hai nee jernail nee kernail nee ``

A whole nation`s psyche. But, the army has taken on more than they can chew. Pakistan is an extremely difficult country to govern. I have heard that when the military trucks approached Prime Minister House on 12th Oct and Nawaz was informed by his son, he laid his head back on his chair and said I`m relieved that they want to take over my responsibilities.

UmairR:

Liked the artist formerly known as UR. Have you posted thoughts on ``islamisation`` of Giap yet?

Zeemax:

``I wish the book by Allama Iqbal named `` Reconstruction of religious thought in Islam`` hadn`t been banned in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan; which he wrote after having wept in the Alhambra mosque in Cordobia (Qartaba).``

When was RRTI banned in Pakistan?

Forgive me, but I thought the book was based on the lectures he first delivered at the reknowned Khuda Baksh Memorial Library, Patna. And later he repeated them for audiences at Aligarh and Hyderabad with minor modifications. Can someone correct me?

Digression: Reading through some earlier interacts on Generals, strategies, pinzer movements etc this thought crossed my mind. After all is said and done we all end up six feet up covered in sandalwood or six feet below in a shroud: and dust to dust and ashes to ashes assume their eternal meanings. How we journey to that state separates the men from boys.

rgds

t



(The artist formerly known as UR :))

Apologies:

The last line should be deleted!

Amit Reply 144: I have thought about the US system of govt. being introduced in Pakistan, as well. My own conclusion is identical to the conclusion you seem to have reached. It would be much better than the parlimentary system.

The head of the govt. (whatever he may be called) should be directly elected, for reasons you have mentioned. Also, there should be no limitations on whom he/she decides to appoint in the cabinet (the cabinet members should not have to be senators or assembly members). There should be term limits on all members of the senate and asembly, as well as the head of the govt.

In case of Pakistan, if no land reforms are introduced, then I think there has to be some indirect limitation on the participation of the feudals. Perhaps individuals who claim to have more than a certain amount of land, should be ineligable for senate elections.

Women should be allowed to particapte in open elections, and they should have a certain no. of reserved seats. Religious minorities should be allowed to do the same. There are many other issues, as well.

Isn`t Israel running a sort of pseudo-parlimentary govt. with a head of govt. being directly elected? I will have to look into that, a bit more.

In response to Umairr (formerly UR; Reply #: 152)

Dear Umair:

Your statement: ``It is difficult for me to comment on statements from NCOs from the 1965 war; I do not have any personal experiences from that time.``

Comment: It is definitely hard to believe anyone in this world. But, if the non-Commissioned officer (NCO) was telling the truth about the brutality of one or more Pakistani soldiers with pride (to give some idea of the prevailing emotions), shouldn`t we for a moment think about the kind of training our soldiers receive. If we hear many stories of the brutality of our army on different occasions about different places, we surely need to look into the matter much more seriously. My intention is not to deface Pakistan or the Pakistan army. I believe that acts of brutality, atrocity, and other uncalled for transgressions, not only make us weak as a nation (which we already are) but bring bad name to even our religion (since we belong to a so-called Islamic Republic of Pakistan). What kind of personal experience do you need to realize that our army is chosen from our nation which has some serious problems? In order to make a better army (for our real defense), we need to invest in the future of our children in all parts of Pakistan. As long as we don`t learn from our past follies (particularly in the arena of so-called defense), we will fail to make Pakistan a free, fair, and respectable nation.

Your statement: ``I also cannot comment about what happened in Baluchistan, because my knowledge about those events is very limited.``

Comment: You could have at least said: If the story of Jabal is true, it is deplorable. Am I trying to become unpopular by saying so?

Your statement: ``However the question under discussion here is different. I very highly doubt that the Pakistani (or Indian) militaries, would ever mutilate bodies of dead soldiers, as a form of military policy. It has never been a policy of the Pakistani miliary to, ``rape, pillage and burn.`` When that has happened, they were actions of individuals, or individual commanders. However, mutilating bodies, and then giving them to India would indicate an official gesture from the Pakistani military; this would not be an individual`s act. Because of this, I highly doubt it happened. What would Pakistan gain from it?``

Comment: May be the issue of mutilated bodies of soldiers has been blown-out of proportion; may be it is not. I am not sure what clarification the Government of Pakistan (and the Pakistani army) has provided. My reference to the NCO and the Jabal story was to provide some sort of rebuttal of your position about the army tradition. I agree with you that Pakistani (or Indian) army does not mutilate bodies of (dead or alive soldiers) as a result of a policy. I, however, disagree with your implication that the acts of individual soldiers or commanders should not be viewed as acts of the army. Permit me to go a step further. It is not a policy of Pakistan army to engage in coup against the government and the constitution. Yet in reality the army has (rightly or wrongly) engaged in such undemocratic actions on several occasions. We are also well aware of the adverse consequences of such actions.

I think, I would not have intervened in this discussion had you (being a good human being) taken a pro-human position, rather than a pro-army position. I really don`t know if our soldiers have, by willful design, mutilated bodies of the Indian soldiers. But, I am sorry that some human beings have lost their lives over an unnecessary and unwarranted venture, called Kargil. This is sad. This shows our inability to resolve the conflicts peacefully and amicably.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Why would otherwise intelligent people belive the propaganda put out by governments is beyond me. It is an axiom that truth is the first casualty of war. That being the case, one could be certain that Pak army personnel did not torture and mutilate Indian army personnel.

However, after reading about the tribals of the NWFP, it is quite possible that the Indian army personnel fell into the hands of these tribal irregulars and were tortured by them. That seems to be their modus operandi. The fact that the Pak army personnel returned the bodies indicate that they had nothing to do with those mutilations.

Regarding anti-civilian actions by armies, one could point to Pakistan in Baluchistan and Bangladesh and the Indian Peace-Keeping Force in Sri Lanka. Nobody`s hand is clean.

BEFORE PAKISTAN WAS ESTABLISHED

People who shared the same land, the same rivers and the air, arbitrarily separated by the terms of the TNT, on one side have evolved to observe the laws more in violation than in compliance. There are various reasons, but the following is very unique.

There was an interview, as usual in dawn, with a loan defaulter and a traitor, a sugar mill owner. In addition to defaulting on the loan, he was accused of trading with India during Kargill. He said that there was trade with India during Bhutto and Zia times. He said they have always traded with India and “his family company has been in business long before PAKISTAN WAS ESTABLISHED”. The man was basically ridiculing the laws of Pakistan, his company has a longer history than his country, has survived longer.

His way of thinking is unique. He is wondering what this Pakistan is all about that has intruded into his life, what Pakistan means to him. He could hear the distant gun shots, the valiant mujahideen returning from the Kargill, through the film songs on the loud speakers, he could faintly hear the chant..pa…kiestan ka matlaab kyaa… la il..ahaa.. illa….alla

May be Pakistan needs a new identity based on the land, rivers and the air, which predates any company. May be that is what it should be, not the in relation to another country. That could end a lot of things, it could give Pakistanis a vision beyond India. Kashmir is a question of survival for Pakistan, it is a cancer that is eating into the vitality of Pakistan, it has destroyed several governments, military is the last institution standing which in turn is trying to destroy the last of the big industrial houses under the default agenda, and once that is finished only the rural feudal will remain. General PM has declared that land reforms are problematic. Then it is the turn of the army of god.

Re: Fidel Reply #: 145

Your usual posts get a grin out of me, this one had me in splits !!! regards.

Maj. Gen. Iftikhar Janjua was GOC 6 Armour Div. in 1971 war, although he was actually, like all good Janjuas, an infantry officer. I believe he was universally admired and considered to be a fine soldier. He was killed in a helicopter crash when out reconnoitering the ground his Division would be fighting over. Relatives of mine who had served under him maintain that if he had not been killed, 6 Armor (and the entire Pakistani offensive in the West) would have looked very different. As it turned out, we achieved next to nothing in the West, inspite of the fact that for the first and the last time in history, we had virtual troop parity with the Indians.

Any self-respecting Army (e.g., the German Reichswehr after WWI) would have analyzed its failures in 1971, court-martialled (or at least did some severe internal house-cleaning) several dozen generals and figured out how to do a better job next time. We did nothing of this sort. Our reason for our failure is that the handful of Bengali officers who deserted in the West took all our topsecret battleplans to the Indians. Utter nonsense. The vast majority of Bengali Army officers in the West were loyal and fought as well as many ``true`` Pakistanis and far better than some. For example, the Army`s strategic reserve, 1 Armour Div, was commanded by a Bengali, Maj. Gen. Bachu Karim, and he was certainly not disloyal to Pakistan in any way, shape, or form. It was not his doing that 1 Armour was never committed to battle.

It is of course to Mr. Bhutto`s (and the blockhead generals who installed him in power) eternal credit that all these loyal officers and their families were immediately interned in camps, stripped of all their posessions, and eventually repatriated to Bangladesh. I believe a handful of them asked to stay on in Pakistan and the Army. The last of these, a gunner, was promoted to Maj. Gen. several years ago.

I believe that the Bengalis serving in the SSG in E. Pakistan were loyal till the bitter end. Truly legio patria mori.

While no fan of Gen. Zia`s, he did try to improve the professional education of the Pakistani Army and the present crop of Generals is professionally much better than the ones we had in 1965 and 1971.

However, we still have not, as far as I know, carried out any serious analysis of the Army`s utter failure in 1971, on both the political and military front (esp. the Western Front). Incidentally, in E. Pakistan, the insurgency was military defeated by the end of October 1971 and Pakistani and Indian troops were fighting battalion and (at least one) brigade level actions by November, well before the ``start`` of the war in on Dec. 3rd.

TAhmed321: Again, you are correct. We do not want any loose cannons running around now BUT, its nice to have a Patton or two on your side when the shooting starts. Ariel Sharon, right-wing neo-Fascist butcher though he is, certainly knew how to handle an Armour Division in 1973. He is essentially responsible for the Israelis crossing the Suez, outflanking the trapped Egyptian 3rd (I think) Army in the Sinai, threatening Cairo and forcing the Egyptians to beg the Russians to save them (again) from the evil Israelis.

Regards all.

I apologize for an error I made. Gen. Iftikhar had commanded 6 Armour but in 1971 he was commanding an infantry division. I believe he was awarded an HJ posthumously.

Re : The discussion about mutilations of Indian soldiers.

The Pakistan Army does not mutilate fallen soldiers however the tribal villagers may have done so. During the 1971 war an Indian fighter jet was shot down by anti-aircraft gun fire over Peshawar where I was living at the time. I along with some friends witnessed the hit and set out on motorbikes towards where it had crashed. The jet had gone down in a barren tribal area near Bara which took us about 15 minutes by trail bikes to reach so we got there before the army helicopters arrived. The pilots torso was there minus all limbs. The head was also missing. And the tribals were shooting bullets into the torso. I asked one guy why he was doing it since the man was already dead ? He answered that it was for `` sawab`` and offered me the gun so I could partake of some sawab as well. Of-course I politely declined.

Above may shed some light on the issue.

RoohiAD # 9

How come your post is so mellow ? Pls revert to your usual writing style and clobber someone .. Give it to them ... !

Bahmad: You stated, ``I think, I would not have intervened in this discussion had you (being a good human being) taken a pro-human position, rather than a pro-army position.`` This remark seems to indicate that one cannot be pro-army and pro-human at the same time. It also seem to indicate that a good human being cannot be pro-army. I would have to disagree with this whole-heartedly. I have had the unique experience of working in the Pakistan military, as well as the Pakistan civilian sector. On the whole, the people I have run across in the military were at least as honorable, patriotic, dedicated, honest, and humane as the ones I came across in the civilian sector.

As much as I enjoy debating issues with you, it is becoming difficult for me to discuss this one with you. So far all the information you have presented is second-hand. Earlier you had commented on corruption on F-16 deals, but indicated that information was also second hand. Yet you seem to have pre-judged the individuals of the military, as a whole, based on this second-hand information. I have first hand information about the members of the military, and everything I know, on the whole, seems to indicate the exact opposite of your information.

There are good and bad individuals in every institution. Name one that does not have a single bad individual. For every individual in the military who commits a human rights violation, there are hundreds who risk their lives to ensure that you and I have a place to go back to during our summer vacations. To point out the actions of a few individuals of the military, and form an opinion about the whole organization, based on the acts of those individuals, is very unfair. The military does not in any way train officers and men to torture people. That is the furthust from the truth. It does not endorse this kind of behavior, either. There are laws against that, which on the whole are followed. There are drug addicts in the military also. But that does not mean that the military supports drug use as a policy. The military attempts its best to catch them. Recently two pilots of the PAF were caught and prosecuted because they had attempted to smuggle drugs to the USA. They are both in jail.

As I mentioned earlier, I was never the model officer in the military. There is a good chance I would have been court martialled in a year or two, because I spent most of my time criticizing the military beaurecracy. My criticisms were based on the low pay, bad living conditions, lack of vision amongst the generals, the senior officers using up most of the welfare budget of the military without giving the junior officers there due share, etc. However, not for a single second did I consider the Pakistan military individuals to be, as a whole, inhuman. There are individuals who commit human rights violations (and more often than not, they are prosecuted), however an overwhelming majority of the military personnel are decent human beings.

Let me tell you a story. I just found out that one of the pilots killed in the unarmed Naval anti-submarine/reconn aircraft shot down by the Indian MIG, is a close friend of mine. His name is Lt. Cdr. Mehboob. We worked together closely for 1 1/2 years. He was one of the nicest persons I have ever met. He was around 34/35 years old. His job was to target enemy submarines that were targetting Pakistani ships. In a wartime situation, he would have had to kill enemy sailors. Knowing him personally, I doubt, in peacetime, he could hurt even an insect. However in war, he would have had to kill people to protect Pakistan. Does that make him, ``pro-Army`` and not, ``pro-human?`` He is now dead, in the line of duty.

Contrary to what you have suggested, almost everyone I have come across in the military falls into the Lt. Cdr. Mehboob category. A microscopic minority fall into the category of the NCO whose example you have presented. Should NCOs like that be criticized. Of course they should be. Individuals in the military who carry out human rights violations are looked down upon, and prosecuted also. In thirteen years, I did not come across a single individual who had done anyting of this sort. Is the system perfect; definitely not. Can the military control all of them; no it cannot because there are 600,00 individuals in the Pakistan military. Does it try to control them; definitely yes. For every human rights violater in the Pakistan military, I have come across hundreds and hundreds of Lt. Cdr. Mehboobs.

In my opinion, pre-judging individuals on the basis of ethnicity, religion, nationality, and PROFESSION is a form of discrimination, which we should all attempt to avoid. Regarding condemning the human rights violations of individuals who practice torture. I assumed that to be understood, and therefore did not state it. Obviously, if someone participates in torture it is wrong. I would welcome inputs from others who have worked with the military, or lived amongst them, like Fuzair, on this issue. Perhaps they can give a neutral view on the humanity/inhumanity of the average military person.

If you are really interested in figuring out the thought processes of the average military personnel, I would encourage you to get involved with the military directly. Second hand information usually causes controversy, because it can neither be proven nor disproven.

I think, the most humane person is not the one who completely denounces any and all kinds of participation in military affairs, and wars. That to me is a naive and unrealistic approach. It is also very easy to do. The most humane person, in my book, is the one who is willing to risk his/her life in battle, to protect the lives of other innocent civilian human beings. This is very difficult to do. War is a part of our society. We should make every attempt to avoid it, but we must understand it. It will not go away, just because we wish it to go away.

Looking forward to your comments, as well as comments from anyone whose position is in-between the position you and I have taken.

In reply to Lost on Planet Earth, I now see what the complaint on the Pakistani side about not being able to post a registered letter without a payoff might be about.

Emma Duncan ( correspondent for the Economist)wrote a book ``Breaking the Curfew : A Political Journey Through Pakistan``, published in 1989 (ISBN 0 7181 2989 X). It is about Zia`s Pakistan, but perhaps it holds good now as well.

Duncan writes :

On the pavements outside the post offices are men selling stamps of every denomination. The men inside the post offices may not be able to supply you with what you want, and will direct you to the men outside who charge a fifteen per cent mark-up, of which the men inside the post office get five per cent.

* * *

I have not come across any such thing in India.

Also, writing about how Pakistan ranked internationally regarding corruption, Duncan quotes an American banker about corruption -- ``India`s small sh * * compared to this place``.

* * *

That was in 1989. Also of that time, Duncan writes that the official foreign debt of Pakistan at that time was $11 billion. She mentions an ``invisible external defence debt`` of around $15 billion. The GNP that time was around $35 billion.

Rs 30 billion of loans were non-performing out of a total credit of Rs 100 billion extended by banks to the private sector; the banks` capital base was Rs. 10 billion. This was after years of General Zia`s rule. Loan defaults are not an invention of the post-Zia elected governments.

-arun gupta