The Case for De jure Legalization

Saleh sahib says : ‘While I do not mind the concept of free choice’,

I am happy to Know Saleh sabih merely does not ‘mind’ the concept of free choice, yet is intellectually averse to it.

Saleh sahib says : ’lets first make a conscience effort to get the level of educational foundation

of our brothers to a level where they are not merely influenced by what I may say

or do or what you say and do. ‘

Without money, these are just empty words, and my proposal provides $1 billion in annual

Revenue, to finance just such enlightenment, of which you merely speak of in the abstract. The

difference between actual something constructive, and rhetoric.

I can only pity those who search for G-D in a mosque, under the ‘guidance’ of a mullah,

Or those who look to the state’s tutelage for ‘moral values.’ Neither is Islam, nor are moral values, to be found in either child-molesting mullahs, politicized mosques, or corrupt state institutions.

Nor can they ever be. Kindly refer to Bhulle Shah for some guidance on this topic. Nor, can we really expect, given the light of practical experience, for any of these things to change in the near future.

The refined intellectual air of the idealistic world Amin Saleh breathes is not in existence in the real world. We mere humans have to live as best we can with the cards we are dealt, in the situation we find ourselves in.

Education for the masses cannot be postponed for ever, just because Amin Saleh is intellectually personally satisfied with prohibition, and lacks any alternative practical proposals that would fill the State’s coffers overnight.

Pakistan is a country teetering on the verge of default. And like religious scholars in Baghdad in 1258, with the mongols outside the city gates, he wants to debate the wisdom of whether coffee is, or is not, sanctioned by Islam.

This kind of thinking just misses the forest of reality, for the trees of bookish intellectualism.

When the forest itself is on fire, will your trees standing alone, even escape the hungry flames?



Love from N.Y

Omar

Amin Saleh, #49

``Alcohol is slow poisioning of oneself.``

But so is eating creamcheese! Not to mention eating red meat, food cooked in ``Dalda``, and other ``goodies`` that are high in fat and cholesterol. What about cigarettes smoking? Where is the outrage against these non-alcoholic poisons? Why single out alcohol?

Lets face it, sir. Your argument against alcohol consumption is essentially religious without mentioning religion, and just like religious rationale, it does not hold ground. You give your argument an economic twist and throw in morality. Drinking alcohol has nothing to do with morality, and no country that produces and/or consumes alcohol is facing economic problems due to it.

Moderation is the key not only to a better health in consumption of our bodily intake, but in everything else in life, including in accumulation of wealth, and yes, in consumption of alcohol. It is now a medical fact that moderate consumption of red wine is good for one`s heart. Try to promote red wine and ban cigarette smoking in Pakistan without bringing religion in it!!!

Furthermore Saleh sahib commends the fact that ostentatious marriages have been banned in Pakistan, on the grounds that the poor go broke trying to emulate the rich. Unfortunately he has ignored the actual effect on the poor of the closure of Shadi-Khanas en mass.

30,000 people (waiters, and people in downstream industries), all poor, have been rendered jobless. This is not commensurate with any plausible benefit gained, such as a reduction in inflation in the prices of chicken, meat etc. I doubt there has been any, and anyway its useless pretending the poor can even afford to eat meat/chicken once a week. And the rich as usual, have found ways of getting around the, ‘ostentatious’ wedding ban.

In theory, if we follow Saleh sahibs` reasoning, the poor will also be under pressure to do the same. The government cannot, and should not, try to legislate morality. It never works. Particularly, in an country where the x-Prime Minister built up an estate at Raiwind (including special roads to it) at a cost to the tax payers of 200 million rupees. This, while it was prima facie legal according to the immoral laws passed by a Parliament dominated by feudals, is a prime example of unjust personal enrichment.

In hazrat Umer’s time (my namesake), a common citizen had standing to question the Khalifa over a piece of cloth, that was his share of the spoils of war, in a PUBLIC ASSEMBLY. But in Pakistan we have the triumph of FORM OVER SUBSTANCE.

Arey Peyo gay to charhe gee, yeh, ‘higher’ morality!

Nah peynay walay kya samjhain, hamein?

Ilm ‘o fun kay dewanay,

mulk ke ashikey say na darte hain

Hum hain aslee momin,

nar daryein gain jahilat say

Mulk hamara hay! Dil jiyala hai!

Hum too pagal hain, hum to ashiq hain

(original composition)

Love from N.Y,

Omar

Re; Amin Saleh, #49 (and occasional letter to the ed writer in Dawn)

Amin Saleh, sitting Comfortably in Toronto, Canada, comments on the `morality` of legalization. Its all fine and dandy to talkabout `whats good for the human civilization`, when your comfort level is that of a permenant Canadian resident.

I don`t know what bottle would cost $10 imported directly, but neither is 12 year old single malt Macallan, nor Glenfiddich, Glenlivet, Jack Daniels, nor even blended Johnney Walker Black Label are anywhere near as cheap wholesale. You people should improve your drinking habbits!

My best suggestion regarding the Balance of payment problems (something i had considered earlier myself), is that no LCs (letters of Credit) whatsoever be issued in foreign exchange for the import of alcohol PERIOD. Thus, black money now repatriated thru hundi system, and not offical channels, will be forced to be used by importers of alcohol. None of Pakistan governments foreign exchange should be made available for this purpose. Thus legalization would serve another purpose, that of documenting the economy, and bringing out more undocumented wealth into the tax net.

He ends with

`Let them read and write. Let them access to books and magazines and internet. Let there be enlightenment before exposing them to the false gods of glitz and glory.`

Ignorance is bliss ! And you my dear Mr. Saleh, are practically rolling in the sty, mouthing moral platitudes sitting in Canada, and making absurd suggestions.

Are you not aware that Pakistan has no money to spend on education ? 60% of the budget goes into debt servicing, the rest into defense. Here i am proposing a PRACTICAL way to raise revenue (and end the current hypocricy) that can in fact be used by government to improve social services and the pathetic system of public education, and there you are sitting in Canada, lecturing us all on morality, dripping with indecent hypocricy.

What is morality to an illiterate, starving unemployable man, commiting self-immolation in despair, because of the lack of a decent future ? Let alone the question of internet access. I am espousing a `higher` MORALITY (grin), by advocating an end to hypocricy and that, this additional revenue to the government be used to educate the poor. I am also proposing an end to the humiliating politics of, `One more IMF tranche.` Hence I said this is a tax on the rich. YOU are another practicioner of orthopraxy, which has become a religion in itself in Pakistan, having displaced Islam long ago.

Love from N.Y,

Omar

tariqlodi

There is in life two aspects: what is good for one self and what is good for the human civilization.

There is no human law for a person that has committed suicide. Alcohol is slow poisioning of oneself. What you do with yourself is ofcourse your choice.

But we would not be human if we primarily thought about ourselves. We need to see what is good for the human civilization.

Asad Alam proposes that we imported directly each bottle would cost approximately $10 or Rs. 500/.

And he touts the potential of $1 billion a year in revenues. May be he does not look at the Balance of Payment Accounts or maybe he wishes to ignore the consequences. For the impact of importing alcohol - while not improving the standard of living for the average Pakistani - will certainly cause a bigger balance of trade deficit. Our imports currently consist of 30% crude and distilled oil products, an additional 15% goes to the likes of Edible Oil, furthermore we allocate 20% to the likes of tea, wheat, etc. Then we have industrial machinery and equipment taking up 15%. Maybe we should substitute tea for alcohol or maybe distilled oil for alcohol.

If the intellectual community is drinking then what message does it give the people that follow by example and not be rational thought process. How have we acted to improve their standard of living. Remember we the affluent have been spending millions on our marriages and this has proliferated to the masses. These people feel that in order to uphold their dignities with those of the affluent, have to celebrate their marriages ostentatiously.

Have we no conscience.

What we do in the fight for the right to choose, we tolerate what was previously considered unacceptable, what was previously unacceptable soon becomes merely unconventional, that which has to be tolerated for the sake of free choice.

While I do not mind the concept of free choice, lets first make a conscience effort to get the level of educational foundation of our brothers to a level where they are not merely influenced by what I may say or do or what you say and do. But they have the ability to source information from all possible medium and make their choices.

Let them read and write. Let them access to books and magazines and internet. Let there be enlightenment before exposing them to the false gods of glitz and glory.

tariqlodi

There is in life two aspects: what is good for one self and what is good for the human civilization.

There is no human law for a person that has committed suicide. Alcohol is slow poisioning of oneself. What you do with yourself is ofcourse your choice.

But we would not be human if we primarily thought about ourselves. We need to see what is good for the human civilization.

Asad Alam proposes that we imported directly each bottle would cost approximately $10 or Rs. 500/.
And he touts the potential of $1 billion a year in revenues. May be he does not look at the Balance of Payment Accounts or maybe he wishes to ignore the consequences. For the impact of importing alcohol - while not improving the standard of living for the average Pakistani - will certainly cause a bigger balance of trade deficit. Our imports currently consist of 30% crude and distilled oil products, an additional 15% goes to the likes of Edible Oil, furthermore we allocate 20% to the likes of tea, wheat, etc. Then we have industrial machinery and equipment taking up 15%. Maybe we should substitute tea for alcohol or maybe distilled oil for alcohol.

If the intellectual community is drinking then what message does it give the people that follow by example and not be rational thought process. How have we acted to improve their standard of living. Remember we the affluent have been spending millions on our marriages and this has proliferated to the masses. These people feel that in order to uphold their dignities with those of the affluent, have to celebrate their marriages ostentatiously.

Have we no conscience.

What we do in the fight for the right to choose, we tolerate what was previously considered unacceptable, what was previously unacceptable soon becomes merely unconventional, that which has to be tolerated for the sake of free choice.

While I do not mind the concept of free choice, lets first make a conscience effort to get the level of educational foundation of our brothers to a level where they are not merely influenced by what I may say or do or what you say and do. But they have the ability to source information from all possible medium and make their choices.

Let them read and write. Let them access to books and magazines and internet. Let there be enlightenment before exposing them to the false gods of glitz and glory.

aye kuch abr, kuch sharab aye

oos kay bad aye, jo azab aye

--Faiz

Pakistan`s constant war against alcohlol is not really based on orthodoxy or orthopraxy or any other orthowhatever .... it is another symbol of nationhood - one more way in which we differentiate ourselves from those on the other (wrong) side of the border. It, along with other perrenial Islamic symbols like the segregation of sexes and the deafening jihad against riba, provides a large section of our politicians with a holy platform. Loathing for the cannines was also added to this platform with the General`s remarkably naive photo-op with his cuddly Pekinese.

The formerly three-legged platform is now firmly-footed on the four pillars: alchol, woman, riba and dog. It is strong enough to launch the JUP(A-Z) and Qazi Sahib`s languishing JI - the Momins are on the move while some of us sneak out to the Urs of Bari Imam, overlooking the seat of the khilafat, for a taste of the malang`s brew !

Re: SameerJB

It is infrequent and far between that one sees a Islamist with the cogent and realistic mindset that you have. Most of the Islamists I have come across, even though well educated, are slaves of dogma. They blindly follow and in most cases, as you pointed out, follow the blind as well. There is a clarion call for channeling the river out of the pond it is in and allowing for influences to enrich and improve the religion whose essence will never be in peril, because it is sound. It is the blind mullahs and the mullahs who follow blindly that have put Islam in the dog house of religions. Islam, as it was envisioned, was supposed to be the all embracing philosophy for man to square off with his maker, but it has been so befuddled off late that even the maker will distance himself from it.

I applaud Mr. Mirza`s cajones, and would like to share something similar with him, and the readers of Chowk, written a few days after Kemal Musharraf took over.

But first, I would like to say a few things. First, I am amazed that people think Pakistan is pak, and that drinking is nothing but a fall down the spiral to - amongst other things, as I gathered from the replies I have read - AIDS and homsexual infested gutters. But simple cause and effect logic is the characteristic of our feeble collective intellect.

I was once asked, by a man well know but whom shall remain nameless, who taught me to copulate (I spare the readers the man`s real words). I was informed that we (as in South Asia/Arabia) had been boozing and whoring much before our European brothers got in on the action. So any attempts to claim that the lifting of prohibition will turn us into, horror of horrors, Western is wrong: we shall only revert to ourselves, circa 1650 AD. Given the state of the ecomony, the date seems perfect.

I would also like to remind some of the readers out there that Pakistan has not always been the was it depicted in Pak-Studies books across the land. My father reports that his first strip show was in a trade fair in Lahore (which later became the meretricious Horse and Cattle Show and Industrial Show) in 1967. Drinking was not uncommon, health slips (which allowed the purchase of alcohol for medical reasons, of course) abounded, and civility was par for the course. Of course, the only problem with Mr. Mirza`s otherwise ingenious solution to Pakistan`s economy is that, as a culture, we Pakistani`s have forgotten how to drink. Readily available alcohol will result in no end of ``what-you-looking-at-me-for-punk?`` fights and brawls.

But now, without further ado, a letter written by a close relative on the subject:

Dear Chief Executive General Musharraf,

As a shareholder of Pakistan Inc., your photograph in today?s Dawn (October 19, 1999) with your family including your dogs was very refreshing, as your speech of October 16th was inspiring. The execution of the great resolve you communicated to us as a nation will be the test of all your mettle.

The foremost objective in your agenda was economic revival. My recommendation for one of the most efficacious sources of incremental revenue for our desperately starved treasury is to lift Prohibition. Desperate times need bold decisions. One of the boldest ones you could do, and do with great alacrity, is to lift prohibition.

No political government will be able to take such a bold decision yet, once in place for economic reasons, no political machine will be able to undo it.

By my estimation, which is correct in its order of magnitude, approximately 10,000 cases (120,000 bottles) are consumed daily in Pakistan. If imported directly each bottle would cost approximately $10 or Rs. 500/. Currently, the sale price for one bottle is approximately $40 or Rs. 2000/. If prohibition was to be lifted and the price structure remained the same, except that the government would collect the difference between the cost and sale price of a bottle as tax - $30, the incremental to the state would amount to approximately $3.6 million per day. This approximates to about an incremental revenue of over $1,000,000,000 per annum.

The incremental revenue is the direct benefit of this decision, the indirect benefits range from crushing the black market which exists and establishing Pakistan as a desirable tourist destination, which cwould be the source of substantial additional income. Currently Pakistan does not participate in the largest industry in the world.

In concordance with your strong speech of Sunday evening, lifting prohibition would be sending a very strong and convincing message to the world. To the west, it would be indicative of your tolerance and temperance; to the fundamentalist a strong signal of your intolerance of hypocrisy. It would send a strong message on innumerable levels.

The beginning of this century saw the rise of one of the greatest Muslim leaders: Kamal Ataturk. I believe that there is an opportunity at the end of this millennium to see another one, if he is made of the same mettle as was the Great Turk. I have no doubt what he would have done in these circumstances, and as a fellow admirer of the man, I am sure you would agree.

Yours sincerely,

Asad Alam

Legalisation.

Well well, this may lead to an interesting study. Have concubines and wine really been banned? One has to come up with authentic references. Some novices through the ages have portrayed a beautiful thing ugly. Why such heavy penalty of Rs. 1000/- tax per bottle? If the reason is that one gets drunk and loses sense using it then the the bread should sell at + taxes Rs.10000/-

Takafull:

And what the level of education should be? Who and why he would SET the standard for any body?

To my mind every thing I do is legal as long as I don’t infringe upon jurisdiction of any body’s nose! This much freedom one should fairly ask for.

Gautama sidharta

Wonder what can not be discussed here at chowk that a privacy nook is required, any way if there is, I am there.

tariqlodi

FUZAIR # 40

Yours is thus far the best post on this thread. Most of the other posts were either sarcastic or supportive of the legalization. Legalization of alcohol and revenue generation is just a tip of the iceberg and you have pointed the finger on the larger issue. The article “ The Case for De jure Legalization” should be read as literally as well as metaphorically. Metaphorically this article raises a serious question, which is: Are we ready to open up like rest of the world or willing to remain ghettoized behind high walls?

It is easy to be sarcastic without logic. The issues of prostitution or cocaine are not the same as alcohol. Alcohol has been around like prostitution since the earliest civilizations following ice age. Throughout the history, there is constant evolution of thoughts and ideas about morality. The evolution of morality has rightfully marginalized the prostitution and more recently cocaine but alcohol consumption is an accepted bad habit. The consumption of alcohol has been declining just like smoking, because of the recent findings about the harmful effects of alcohol consumption. So far we have not reached a point in the evolution of morality where a person consuming alcohol in moderation is considered an outcast.

In Pakistan, alcohol was legally available until mid seventies and is banned since then. I know of no study suggesting that we are morally better now than before. Actually we used to fight with stones and dandas, now we fight with guns and bombs.

Thank you Fuzair for introducing me to a new term, orthopraxy. I have added this to my vocabulary. It is generally accepted that Islam without practice is nothing. Islam means submission, which evolved into total submission; total submission became blind faith and more recently blind faith has turned into faith in the blinds. I am very sympathetic towards disabled people but it is a fact also that blinds can not see. Then why on earth are we becoming more and more crazy in following individuals like Omar Abdul Rehman ( Egyptian cleric, held in US for masterminding the WTC bombing. He is totally blind yet has two wives, one much younger than him), Sheikh Abdul Aziz Bin Baz ( recently deceased, President of Medina University, considered to be the top most Wahabi cleric, did not believe the landing of man on moon, gave fatwa that all the people dying for the liberation of Kuwait will straight go to heaven, totally blind), Sheikh Yasin (head of Hamas, in Palestine, totally blind), head of the Algerian Muslims fighting against the secular government is also totally blind( I forgot his name), Mulla Omar ( head of Taliban, One-eyed jack) and recently one-eyed Indonesian cleric and president Wahid. These are few of them from top of my head, there may be many more. Will any one name another religion or nation so thrilled about the knowledge and leadership of the Blinds? Can you guess where this Islamic revival is heading when your leaders can’t see? We are heading for disaster.

It is common to brand people with such opinions as westernized, pragmatist, rational or even stupid. I may be little westernized by choice but Islamists are westernized by default. West has previously used them against communism ( Pakistani Jamaat-e-Islami, Egyptian Ikhwan-Ul-Muslamoon and Indonesian Nehdat-Ul-Ulema ) during the cold war. The Islamist will be used now for economic reason. West has rightly calculated that more Islamic means more backwardness, lower women status leading to more children and larger families resulting in decreased consumer spending on non-food items and less savings. Islamists are also more vulnerable to fight due to the promise of heaven in the after life. The west need a dumping ground for their category ‘B’ goods and market for their weapons. Where else they can find a billion or so people doing their bidding and doing exactly what west wants them to do. Contrary to the popular belief, except for few hot-headed fundamentalists, the west largely approves and appreciates Islamization.

Even if the scenario of the clash of civilizations as forwarded by Samuel Huntington comes true, the west will find hordes of Muslims ready to do their bidding in the name of common Judeo-Christian -Islamic heritage and being people of the Books. The Islamist will be ready to fight against non-believers and Kafirs of the east. My only hope in such a scenario would be for the Muslims east of Koh-i-Sulaiman ( Pakistani, Indians, Bangladeshi, Malaysian and Indonesians) to consider themselves Eastern Muslims rather than Middle-Eastern Muslims.

It is sad to see a river is trapped into a pond. Instead of allowing the sand and grovels to constantly clean it, we have raised walls around it out of fear of pollution. Well algae and fungi will grow, decays and bound to rot in this pond.

Why stop at alcohol? There are various other things that can be legalised in Pakistan and will bring revenue to the poor government. What about drugs and prostitution? Wait a minute, how about legalising corruption and bribes? Lots of revenue there as that is a much bigger economy.

Fuzair,

thanks for adding to my vocabulary the word ``orthopraxy``. I did a quick internet check on the meaning of this word, and found the following description of how it is used in religion:

orthopraxy (Greek, ``correct action/activity``)

In contrast to orthodoxy (right belief), the emphasis in this term concerns conduct, both ethical and liturgical. Historically, Judaism and Islam have tended to emphasize orthopraxy relatively more than orthodoxy, while classical Christianity tended to shift the balance in the other direction.

You describe the meaning of this phrase in terms of liturgical conduct only, when in fact per the above description it is BOTH ethical and liturgical conduct. So what you are complaining about is the emphasis on liturgical conduct (e.g. act like a slimeball all day, then go home and say prayers to balance of the sins). So Islam is on your side in this complaint.

Incidentally, one on-line dictionary (www.dictionary.com) provided only the following totally different meaning of the term:

orthopraxy Or``tho *prax`y , n. [Gr. `orqo`s straight + ? a doing.] (Med.) The treatment of deformities in the human body by mechanical appliances.

or perhaps it refers to the root cause of the ``pray `n pinch`` culture, namely some kind of mental deformity that can be treated only by some mechanical appliance

Several of the replies to Omar`s sensible suggestion have expressed outrage at the very thought of joining the nineteenth century, much less the twentieth and the idea of the twentieth is of course absolute anathema to these obscurantists.

On the religious side of this issue, I would like to point out one important factor that we usually tend to ignore. The guiding mark of contemporary Islam is not orthodoxy but orthopraxy. What is the difference? Orthodoxy is ``believing`` the correct/right things. Orthopraxy is outwardly performing the right acts. I`ll leave you to guess what contemporary Islam (not just in Pakistan but virtually everywhere else) is all about.

The requirement to maintain this mindless orthopraxy is what is going to destroy us in the end. The more I look at Pakistan, the surer I am that Reza Shah and Mustafa Kemal were right when they mandated the removal of Islam from public life and getting rid of the mullahs.

Legalize it, tax it, reduce the budget deficit, and give some tax relief to the poor (i.e., lower the highly regressive excise taxes). And shoot the mullahs.

correction: in post #36 when I said `jay`, I meant `jonty`.