Abdus S Ghazali December 12, 1999
#113 Posted by SameerJB on December 22, 1999 8:04:06 pm
BAHMAD # 85
Cultural Politics in the Indus Valley
(During the time of Sachal Sarmast the boundaries between various regions of the South Asian Subcontinent were not narrowly and artificially defined since the imagined communities of Sind and/or Punjab (for example) were much larger and, thus, overlapping. Shouldn`t we consider our existing regional boundaries as somewhat artificial? If yes, we need to learn more about the regions and people other those which provide a basis of our limited collective identities. The following article on Sachal Sarmast is a first step in such a direction.)
Dear Bilal Ahmad:
It is very nice of you to bring this idea and the appended article about Hazrat Sachal Sarmast. I doubt any one will disagree with you about the current artificial regional boundaries which are more political and recent than the cultural and historical overlapping of several millenia. Actually one does not have to go any further than past 100-200 years when political boundaries were much more dynamic and did not matter for the people as compared to current static boundaries, created for administrative and record-keeping purposes.
As one moves south from Lahore, the language starts changing. Half way between Lahore and Multan, in Jhang-Shorkot it is a mixture of Punjabi and Saraiki, similarly Saraiki is a blending of northern Indus valley (Punjabi) and the southern Indus valley (Sindhi) and so on. The languages of the Indus valley are pearls of the same chain. If common arts and cultural heritage, instead of political, is allowed to play a significant role then many of the static boundaries will become invisibly blurred.
It is almost surprising that Uch( sp?) Sharif (distt. Bahawalpur) will be right at the centre of this land and will be the hotbed of great cultural and religious traditions of sufism.
The article you appended was excellent, however I wished that the era of Sachal Sarmast should have been more clearly defined with his biodata, though it is not difficult for me to figure it out. It must have been after Waris Shah and little before Khawaja Ghulam Farid, somewhere late eighteenth and early nineteenth century. Moreover, I do not find Sachal Sarmast`s inclination towards any of Chishtiya, Qadriya or Shataria (Wahdat-ul-Wajood) etc. schools of thought unless he was mostly a literary person.
Bullah Shah had seen Aurangzeb`s times and did not like it. He was greatly influenced by the native Hindu traditions and wahdat-ul-wajood. He said: doi door karo, koi shor nahin----sab sadh hain, koi chor nahin----hindu muslim do aur nahin.
Waris Shah has seen Ahmad Shah Abdali`s attacks and in his famous `Heer Waris Shah` justice was delivered through a Hindu Raja and Ranjha finds peace and love through asceticism whereas Muslim Qazi`s character is less than admirable.
Khawaja Ghulam Farid was not much different than Bullah Shah in his admiration of Wahdat-Ul-Wajood. I would assume that Sachal Sarmast must have had similar message of love and harmony.
I think these great poets and sufis of late seventeenth century onward had much less to do with conversions and more to do with the development of culture and religious thoughts compatible with the native traditions in addition to being influenced by the Bhagti Movement.
These are just my opinions. Please correct me if I am mistaken somewhere. Thanks again.
Regards,
Sameer
Cultural Politics in the Indus Valley
(During the time of Sachal Sarmast the boundaries between various regions of the South Asian Subcontinent were not narrowly and artificially defined since the imagined communities of Sind and/or Punjab (for example) were much larger and, thus, overlapping. Shouldn`t we consider our existing regional boundaries as somewhat artificial? If yes, we need to learn more about the regions and people other those which provide a basis of our limited collective identities. The following article on Sachal Sarmast is a first step in such a direction.)
Dear Bilal Ahmad:
It is very nice of you to bring this idea and the appended article about Hazrat Sachal Sarmast. I doubt any one will disagree with you about the current artificial regional boundaries which are more political and recent than the cultural and historical overlapping of several millenia. Actually one does not have to go any further than past 100-200 years when political boundaries were much more dynamic and did not matter for the people as compared to current static boundaries, created for administrative and record-keeping purposes.
As one moves south from Lahore, the language starts changing. Half way between Lahore and Multan, in Jhang-Shorkot it is a mixture of Punjabi and Saraiki, similarly Saraiki is a blending of northern Indus valley (Punjabi) and the southern Indus valley (Sindhi) and so on. The languages of the Indus valley are pearls of the same chain. If common arts and cultural heritage, instead of political, is allowed to play a significant role then many of the static boundaries will become invisibly blurred.
It is almost surprising that Uch( sp?) Sharif (distt. Bahawalpur) will be right at the centre of this land and will be the hotbed of great cultural and religious traditions of sufism.
The article you appended was excellent, however I wished that the era of Sachal Sarmast should have been more clearly defined with his biodata, though it is not difficult for me to figure it out. It must have been after Waris Shah and little before Khawaja Ghulam Farid, somewhere late eighteenth and early nineteenth century. Moreover, I do not find Sachal Sarmast`s inclination towards any of Chishtiya, Qadriya or Shataria (Wahdat-ul-Wajood) etc. schools of thought unless he was mostly a literary person.
Bullah Shah had seen Aurangzeb`s times and did not like it. He was greatly influenced by the native Hindu traditions and wahdat-ul-wajood. He said: doi door karo, koi shor nahin----sab sadh hain, koi chor nahin----hindu muslim do aur nahin.
Waris Shah has seen Ahmad Shah Abdali`s attacks and in his famous `Heer Waris Shah` justice was delivered through a Hindu Raja and Ranjha finds peace and love through asceticism whereas Muslim Qazi`s character is less than admirable.
Khawaja Ghulam Farid was not much different than Bullah Shah in his admiration of Wahdat-Ul-Wajood. I would assume that Sachal Sarmast must have had similar message of love and harmony.
I think these great poets and sufis of late seventeenth century onward had much less to do with conversions and more to do with the development of culture and religious thoughts compatible with the native traditions in addition to being influenced by the Bhagti Movement.
These are just my opinions. Please correct me if I am mistaken somewhere. Thanks again.
Regards,
Sameer
#112 Posted by jay on December 22, 1999 8:04:06 pm
METHOD IN THE MADNESS
Temporal,
That was a good one. The following if I remember correctly is from Karl Jung, “The Unconscious”
.
Once up on a time a Kerala Brahmin (KB) was sitting with a fishing line dangling in the bathtub. A Pakistani psychologist (PP), member of a Pak peace delegation approached KB and in a condescending manner and asked, “having any bites”.
KB responded, “ you must be really mad, cant you see, it is a bath tub”.
PP went away, other members of the delegation are still waiting for KB to land the big one.
Regards
Jay
Temporal,
That was a good one. The following if I remember correctly is from Karl Jung, “The Unconscious”
.
Once up on a time a Kerala Brahmin (KB) was sitting with a fishing line dangling in the bathtub. A Pakistani psychologist (PP), member of a Pak peace delegation approached KB and in a condescending manner and asked, “having any bites”.
KB responded, “ you must be really mad, cant you see, it is a bath tub”.
PP went away, other members of the delegation are still waiting for KB to land the big one.
Regards
Jay
#111 Posted by Karakoram on December 22, 1999 8:04:06 pm
Jay:
Hopefully this reply will make it through. My last one did not.
I agree with the parallels that you draw between the Arab/Israeli conflict and the Pakistan/Indian conflict. India like Israel needs to consider the following concepts: ``Land for Peace`` and ``Peace of the Brave``.
Seasons Greetings to All
Peace.
Hopefully this reply will make it through. My last one did not.
I agree with the parallels that you draw between the Arab/Israeli conflict and the Pakistan/Indian conflict. India like Israel needs to consider the following concepts: ``Land for Peace`` and ``Peace of the Brave``.
Seasons Greetings to All
Peace.
#110 Posted by sadna on December 22, 1999 8:04:06 pm
temporal #89
(PS to my last post)
I donot deny that `` if a people, individually and collectively think that they are different, or believe in their identity and stand up to ask for their rights,sooner or later they are bound to get it.``
Whatever such questions do come up now or later in India, I consider that there is no fundamental reason why the principles of universal justice should necessarily be compromised when Indians make efforts to deal with these. The success and justice of those efforts rests on India`s vision of itself and Pakistani pessimism in this regard has become relevant in other parts of India not merely due to the irresistable pull of `civilisational` forces but also due to Pakistan`s self-serving policies of interference. How Pakistan deals which similar forces in its own midst depends on Pakistan`s vision of itself.
For purposes of discussion boards : all theories and extrapolations using Huntington`ian terminology may be applied, but these are equally applicable to India and Pakistan. I think you would agree with that.
For purposes of detente between two nations: The minimum norm of accepting each other at their own current valuation is required. I think you maynot agree with that.
I realise now, the conflict is not merely between Indians` vision of India and Pakistan`s vision of Pakistan, there is also conflict between Indians` vision of India and Pakistan`s vision of India.
Sadhana
(PS to my last post)
I donot deny that `` if a people, individually and collectively think that they are different, or believe in their identity and stand up to ask for their rights,sooner or later they are bound to get it.``
Whatever such questions do come up now or later in India, I consider that there is no fundamental reason why the principles of universal justice should necessarily be compromised when Indians make efforts to deal with these. The success and justice of those efforts rests on India`s vision of itself and Pakistani pessimism in this regard has become relevant in other parts of India not merely due to the irresistable pull of `civilisational` forces but also due to Pakistan`s self-serving policies of interference. How Pakistan deals which similar forces in its own midst depends on Pakistan`s vision of itself.
For purposes of discussion boards : all theories and extrapolations using Huntington`ian terminology may be applied, but these are equally applicable to India and Pakistan. I think you would agree with that.
For purposes of detente between two nations: The minimum norm of accepting each other at their own current valuation is required. I think you maynot agree with that.
I realise now, the conflict is not merely between Indians` vision of India and Pakistan`s vision of Pakistan, there is also conflict between Indians` vision of India and Pakistan`s vision of India.
Sadhana
#109 Posted by sadna on December 22, 1999 8:04:06 pm
temporal #89
Thanks for your reply. I still don`t get the relevance to anything being discussed, of having to go back 5000 years to find an entity to proximate todays India. Proximations of many countries in this world, in West Asia, in North America especially, don`t go back even 1000 years, and let us not forget Pakistan. Why so much emphasis on India?
When an argument is made that India is too closely tying Kashmir to the question of its existence
as a viable state to Kashmir`s detriment, a very common fact revealed in the posts on this site gets by without being generally noticed. The fact is, that some Pakistanis seem to tie THEIR OWN ARGUMENTS about Kashmir to THEIR OWN conviction of India`s inviability as a state, and do so, to the whole region`s detriment. This is an unusable debating position, because, why would any Indian even with every claim to objectivity concede the point on this issue?
If India`s political concept is from 5000 years ago, it has at least been in existence as an entity for 52 years, exactly as long as Pakistan(maybe just a day less). I suspect this fact is a lot more difficult for many Pakistanis to accept than vice versa.
My reading is, to expect some resistance among Indians to your assessment of India`s past and future and disregard for the present. Points raised by anyone anywhere can always be taken as opportunities for self-examination by Indians. However, whatever openness is espoused by India`s democratic principles in settlement of any issue with Pakistan, these democratic principles do not morally or otherwise need to extend toward accepting any Pakistani view of the Indian nation`s overall unviability as gospel or even moot. By the same token, it is best if Pakistanis decided ASAP what they wanted for their country and got on with it.
This may provide a clue to why Indo-Pak agreements never yield lasting results, since a fundamental premise is violated by the attempts of each to redefine or undermine the very nationhood of the other. The question is, is this violation a usable approach for future stability? Now those who want longterm peace will say, no, those who want shortterm satisfaction including the General, will say yes.
Sadhana
Thanks for your reply. I still don`t get the relevance to anything being discussed, of having to go back 5000 years to find an entity to proximate todays India. Proximations of many countries in this world, in West Asia, in North America especially, don`t go back even 1000 years, and let us not forget Pakistan. Why so much emphasis on India?
When an argument is made that India is too closely tying Kashmir to the question of its existence
as a viable state to Kashmir`s detriment, a very common fact revealed in the posts on this site gets by without being generally noticed. The fact is, that some Pakistanis seem to tie THEIR OWN ARGUMENTS about Kashmir to THEIR OWN conviction of India`s inviability as a state, and do so, to the whole region`s detriment. This is an unusable debating position, because, why would any Indian even with every claim to objectivity concede the point on this issue?
If India`s political concept is from 5000 years ago, it has at least been in existence as an entity for 52 years, exactly as long as Pakistan(maybe just a day less). I suspect this fact is a lot more difficult for many Pakistanis to accept than vice versa.
My reading is, to expect some resistance among Indians to your assessment of India`s past and future and disregard for the present. Points raised by anyone anywhere can always be taken as opportunities for self-examination by Indians. However, whatever openness is espoused by India`s democratic principles in settlement of any issue with Pakistan, these democratic principles do not morally or otherwise need to extend toward accepting any Pakistani view of the Indian nation`s overall unviability as gospel or even moot. By the same token, it is best if Pakistanis decided ASAP what they wanted for their country and got on with it.
This may provide a clue to why Indo-Pak agreements never yield lasting results, since a fundamental premise is violated by the attempts of each to redefine or undermine the very nationhood of the other. The question is, is this violation a usable approach for future stability? Now those who want longterm peace will say, no, those who want shortterm satisfaction including the General, will say yes.
Sadhana
#108 Posted by concerned on December 22, 1999 8:04:06 pm
hamidm #79:
`I really don`t see any problem with us continuing to despise and hate each other as other nations have done for centuries and eons. Actually, we have a much better reason to spit venom and spill blood than those who fought the Hundred Years War or that mother-of-all wars, WW2.
So let`s cut out this pretentious and pedantic debate and get on with the business of trying to solve the Kashmir problem the old fashioned way. Sophistry and polemics never won any battles`
Hmmm... another omar1974 in the making?
evidently brig(r)usman khalid in the frontier post today agrees with you:
`...Pakistan, unlike Bangladesh, is not vassal state of India. The people of Pakistan consider themselves to have been fighting a long war with India over Kashmir for the last fifty years. We want no concessions from the enemy nor do we want to give it any. We want to close our frontiers with India and stop flying over each other`s territory. We want no foreign visitor to treat us like an appendage of India. We need to underline not ignore that we are at war with India`
however, hamidm, the old –fashioned way of settling disputes (a la ww2) is, well... old. The new-fashioned way to settle disputes is increasingly becoming knowledge/economic power. It is quite possible, indeed hoped, that the already powerful nations in these aspects would make sure that the old-fashioned way of settling disputes is never revived.
paksitan can not afford a full-scale conventional war with india. and despite the relenteless and irresponsible talk of kashmir being `a nuclear flashpoint`, the possibility of the use of nuclear weapons is zero. so what are you talking about?
for a pragmatic, the futility of war is crystal clear. The only realistic solution to kashmir is to accept loc=ib. and get on with nation-building.
`I really don`t see any problem with us continuing to despise and hate each other as other nations have done for centuries and eons. Actually, we have a much better reason to spit venom and spill blood than those who fought the Hundred Years War or that mother-of-all wars, WW2.
So let`s cut out this pretentious and pedantic debate and get on with the business of trying to solve the Kashmir problem the old fashioned way. Sophistry and polemics never won any battles`
Hmmm... another omar1974 in the making?
evidently brig(r)usman khalid in the frontier post today agrees with you:
`...Pakistan, unlike Bangladesh, is not vassal state of India. The people of Pakistan consider themselves to have been fighting a long war with India over Kashmir for the last fifty years. We want no concessions from the enemy nor do we want to give it any. We want to close our frontiers with India and stop flying over each other`s territory. We want no foreign visitor to treat us like an appendage of India. We need to underline not ignore that we are at war with India`
however, hamidm, the old –fashioned way of settling disputes (a la ww2) is, well... old. The new-fashioned way to settle disputes is increasingly becoming knowledge/economic power. It is quite possible, indeed hoped, that the already powerful nations in these aspects would make sure that the old-fashioned way of settling disputes is never revived.
paksitan can not afford a full-scale conventional war with india. and despite the relenteless and irresponsible talk of kashmir being `a nuclear flashpoint`, the possibility of the use of nuclear weapons is zero. so what are you talking about?
for a pragmatic, the futility of war is crystal clear. The only realistic solution to kashmir is to accept loc=ib. and get on with nation-building.
#107 Posted by gymnosophist on December 22, 1999 8:04:06 pm
Ref macgupta #: 80
You say {Asked why he advised the then U.S. President, Richard Nixon, to send the Seventh Fleet to the Bay of Bengal during the Bangladesh War when he knew that the liberation of that country could not be prevented, Dr. Kissinger replied that the U.S. did not want India to march into West Pakistan within three months of the establishment of Sino- American relations in which the American ability to stand up to the then Soviet Union was a factor and India was having an alliance with the Soviets. He said that the U.S. had sought an assurance from the late Prime Minister, Indira Gandhi that India would not move into West Pakistan but she refused to give such an assurance.}
So, why did India NOT move into West Pakistan if the US had already been rebuffed? Why didn`t India capture the coastline and make Pakistan a landlocked country? Just like the Israelis have held on to Jordanian territory for 32 years, we could still be holding on to Pak territory and squeeze Pakistan.
The Bangladesh war was in December 1971. That means China could not do anything: all the Himalayan passes would be snowbound. It would be May 1972 before China could have done anything. So, the Chinese threat was non-existent.
The reason is that Russia told India that it would veto Security Council resolutions condemning India so long as the action was limited to Bangladesh. Any move into the West would mean that India would be condemned by the Security Council unanimously. The other fact is that the Indian Army was not capable of holding down Bangladesh and simultaneously fight a war in the West where Pakistan would have no disadvantages. A thrust toward Karachi would leave the armored columns exposed to Pak air attacks.
{Whether this should be interpreted as gun-boat diplomacy, and whether India should be vulnerable to it is a matter for debate. It is not something
swallowed whole by the Indian public, however.}
Why did the US 7th Fleet sail into the Bay of Bengal? Were they going to land Marines into East Pakistan? And, do what? Hand over Bangladesh to Pakistan? Hello? Did anybody think this through?
It was a signal not to invade West Pakistan all right, but it could have been ignored because the fleet will have to steam into the Arabian Sea to be effective in that theater of war. If that would have taken another week, India could have launched a blitzkrieg across the desert and captured at least Karachi. So, why didn`t we do it?
In the final analysis, it has to do with lack of strategic thinking.
You say {Asked why he advised the then U.S. President, Richard Nixon, to send the Seventh Fleet to the Bay of Bengal during the Bangladesh War when he knew that the liberation of that country could not be prevented, Dr. Kissinger replied that the U.S. did not want India to march into West Pakistan within three months of the establishment of Sino- American relations in which the American ability to stand up to the then Soviet Union was a factor and India was having an alliance with the Soviets. He said that the U.S. had sought an assurance from the late Prime Minister, Indira Gandhi that India would not move into West Pakistan but she refused to give such an assurance.}
So, why did India NOT move into West Pakistan if the US had already been rebuffed? Why didn`t India capture the coastline and make Pakistan a landlocked country? Just like the Israelis have held on to Jordanian territory for 32 years, we could still be holding on to Pak territory and squeeze Pakistan.
The Bangladesh war was in December 1971. That means China could not do anything: all the Himalayan passes would be snowbound. It would be May 1972 before China could have done anything. So, the Chinese threat was non-existent.
The reason is that Russia told India that it would veto Security Council resolutions condemning India so long as the action was limited to Bangladesh. Any move into the West would mean that India would be condemned by the Security Council unanimously. The other fact is that the Indian Army was not capable of holding down Bangladesh and simultaneously fight a war in the West where Pakistan would have no disadvantages. A thrust toward Karachi would leave the armored columns exposed to Pak air attacks.
{Whether this should be interpreted as gun-boat diplomacy, and whether India should be vulnerable to it is a matter for debate. It is not something
swallowed whole by the Indian public, however.}
Why did the US 7th Fleet sail into the Bay of Bengal? Were they going to land Marines into East Pakistan? And, do what? Hand over Bangladesh to Pakistan? Hello? Did anybody think this through?
It was a signal not to invade West Pakistan all right, but it could have been ignored because the fleet will have to steam into the Arabian Sea to be effective in that theater of war. If that would have taken another week, India could have launched a blitzkrieg across the desert and captured at least Karachi. So, why didn`t we do it?
In the final analysis, it has to do with lack of strategic thinking.
#106 Posted by temporal on December 22, 1999 12:24:29 pm
Zeemax #86:
In my response #66 I was seeking a creative approach towards defense. Your ‘cantonment for self sufficiency’ idea is intriguing, but full of pitfalls.
However, I was probing for a 180 degree shift from the ingrained military thinking: shifting the emphasis away from hi-tech weaponry to older conventional small weaponry based defensive postures. And no more.
This is bound to result in savings that can be used in other areas. And, simultaneously, this will also signal to friend and foe alike that the defense establishment has no offensive designs. Thus paving the way for friendlier normal relations with all the benefits that ensue.
rgds
t
In my response #66 I was seeking a creative approach towards defense. Your ‘cantonment for self sufficiency’ idea is intriguing, but full of pitfalls.
However, I was probing for a 180 degree shift from the ingrained military thinking: shifting the emphasis away from hi-tech weaponry to older conventional small weaponry based defensive postures. And no more.
This is bound to result in savings that can be used in other areas. And, simultaneously, this will also signal to friend and foe alike that the defense establishment has no offensive designs. Thus paving the way for friendlier normal relations with all the benefits that ensue.
rgds
t
#105 Posted by temporal on December 22, 1999 12:16:18 pm
Jay #83
Since you so love parables:
Let me share with you the story of this Keralite Brahmin.
One day when KB was three or four and playing in the courtyard a provoked rooster fought back and attacked him. KB was frightened of roosters ever since. He genuinely believed that roosters are out to swallow him.
KB comes to States, graduates, returns to marry a beautiful Keralite girl KG. She soon discovers his phobia of roosters. Reasons with him. Rationality in this respect takes her nowhere. Eventually she nudges him to seek psychiatric help. Thus enters KP in the parable.
KB has scores of sessions with KP. KP tries hard to overcome KB’s resistance. One day he tried to use simple reasoning. He brings in a rooster in a cage, points at the rooster’s mouth and asks KB, “Look at yourself and look at this mouth, how can this rooster swallow you?”
An unconvinced and adamant KB replied, “Dr. you know it, I know it, but the rooster does not know it. Given the chance he will swallow me.”
Good luck with your foibles and phobias re Tri Nitro Whatever and obsessive fault findings and knee jerk reactions.
t
#104 Posted by temporal on December 22, 1999 12:12:53 pm
Sadhana #78:
First, we have to go back nearly five thousand years back in history to find one geographical and political entity that proximate today’s India. The rulers came and went, some governed large areas some smaller, but seldom the whole of the subcontinent for any appreciable length of time.
(And before I go onto the second reason a short detour is necessary. Forget for a moment what you read about national integrity, UN Resolutions, Agreements, Treaties etc. Just remember this: if a people, individually and collectively think that they are different, or believe in their identity and stand up to ask for their rights, sooner or later they are bound to get it. History books are full of their tales.)
Second, (Indian) intellectuals and policy planners have expressed the fear that if Kashmir is allowed to slip away, the state (of India) would have less of a justification to stand firmly against other people and movements within the union. Thus an intractable stand in Kashmir is a necessary bulwark for supporters of this Domino Effect theory.
Let me end by repeating myself. If ever there was a time when we could gain or lose together, this is it. We are the inseparable siamese twins desperately looking for individual survival and identity. Time for bold decisions, indeed.
rgds
t
First, we have to go back nearly five thousand years back in history to find one geographical and political entity that proximate today’s India. The rulers came and went, some governed large areas some smaller, but seldom the whole of the subcontinent for any appreciable length of time.
(And before I go onto the second reason a short detour is necessary. Forget for a moment what you read about national integrity, UN Resolutions, Agreements, Treaties etc. Just remember this: if a people, individually and collectively think that they are different, or believe in their identity and stand up to ask for their rights, sooner or later they are bound to get it. History books are full of their tales.)
Second, (Indian) intellectuals and policy planners have expressed the fear that if Kashmir is allowed to slip away, the state (of India) would have less of a justification to stand firmly against other people and movements within the union. Thus an intractable stand in Kashmir is a necessary bulwark for supporters of this Domino Effect theory.
Let me end by repeating myself. If ever there was a time when we could gain or lose together, this is it. We are the inseparable siamese twins desperately looking for individual survival and identity. Time for bold decisions, indeed.
rgds
t
#103 Posted by rajanjua on December 22, 1999 7:39:31 am
Re: #85 bahmad
Hallaj is a favourite of most Sufis-Shah Abdul Latif Bhittai says,
Lo! every creature whether on land or sea
Even the trees and shrubs harp the same tune;
As if everything is liable to be hanged,
But countless are the Mansurs! How many would you kill?
Thanks for the post.
Amir
Hallaj is a favourite of most Sufis-Shah Abdul Latif Bhittai says,
Lo! every creature whether on land or sea
Even the trees and shrubs harp the same tune;
As if everything is liable to be hanged,
But countless are the Mansurs! How many would you kill?
Thanks for the post.
Amir
#102 Posted by zeemax on December 22, 1999 12:31:38 am
Ref Temporal # 66
[Won`t fly. Idea has been floated in the past and been rejected by one or the other.]
Temporal, If something hasn´t worked in the past, it better work now because we have no other option but to look towards the future and future alone.
As for cutting defense expenditure, since it is a thorny issue, there is an alternative means in making the defense establishment self-sufficient instead of providing for it from federal revenue. The People´s Liberation Army of China generates a major part of it´s budget from industrial enterprises run by it all over China. The Pakistani military establishment can do the same with their management expertise, already displayed in their successful army welfare trust industrial enterprises in banks, fertilizers, cement, even cereal; amongst others. That would contribute to the nation´s GDP and provide employment. The funding/capital investment of this industrial enterprise would come from privatising military cantonment land for re-development, in major cities. This is a logical step not only from the point of view of the civilians but also that of the army. The concept of military cantonments is that these should be located away from centres of civilian population for two reasons : One, that the Military culture/way of life/objectives are quite different from that of civilians and the two should not intermingle for maintaining the motivation and personal integrity and direction of the armed forces personnel. This is why many civilian social centres like bars/discos etc. are declared out of bounds for military officers. Secondly, in case of war, civilian populations are unnecessarily put at risk by enemy aerial attacks on military barracks and other installations.
The army cantonments when originally established by the British were accordingly a suitable distance away from cities & towns. By growth of cities since then due to urbanisation trends, these same cantoments have ended up being right in the middle of major cities like Lahore, Peshawar, Rawalpindi, Multan, Bahawalpur, Jhelum, Nowshera etc. These are extremely valuable properties located in the poshest and most prestigious residential districts of above cities.
Privatising the above lands for redevelopment into shopping malls, residential apartment/bungalow complexes, office high-rise blocks and entertainment facilities would not only fetch at-least a trillion Rupees ( maybe 2 trillion) but also kickstart the construction materials and cement industries. Massive employment would be created without any further debt burden. The military installations could be re-located again away from city centres on existing government land lying waste & unutilised.
Above is the simplest and the most non-abrasive solution to the present economic quagmire. But will the military co-operate in a positive manner and put their money where their mouth is ? If they´re half the patriots they claim to be, I´m sure they´ll give it a serious thought.
[Won`t fly. Idea has been floated in the past and been rejected by one or the other.]
Temporal, If something hasn´t worked in the past, it better work now because we have no other option but to look towards the future and future alone.
As for cutting defense expenditure, since it is a thorny issue, there is an alternative means in making the defense establishment self-sufficient instead of providing for it from federal revenue. The People´s Liberation Army of China generates a major part of it´s budget from industrial enterprises run by it all over China. The Pakistani military establishment can do the same with their management expertise, already displayed in their successful army welfare trust industrial enterprises in banks, fertilizers, cement, even cereal; amongst others. That would contribute to the nation´s GDP and provide employment. The funding/capital investment of this industrial enterprise would come from privatising military cantonment land for re-development, in major cities. This is a logical step not only from the point of view of the civilians but also that of the army. The concept of military cantonments is that these should be located away from centres of civilian population for two reasons : One, that the Military culture/way of life/objectives are quite different from that of civilians and the two should not intermingle for maintaining the motivation and personal integrity and direction of the armed forces personnel. This is why many civilian social centres like bars/discos etc. are declared out of bounds for military officers. Secondly, in case of war, civilian populations are unnecessarily put at risk by enemy aerial attacks on military barracks and other installations.
The army cantonments when originally established by the British were accordingly a suitable distance away from cities & towns. By growth of cities since then due to urbanisation trends, these same cantoments have ended up being right in the middle of major cities like Lahore, Peshawar, Rawalpindi, Multan, Bahawalpur, Jhelum, Nowshera etc. These are extremely valuable properties located in the poshest and most prestigious residential districts of above cities.
Privatising the above lands for redevelopment into shopping malls, residential apartment/bungalow complexes, office high-rise blocks and entertainment facilities would not only fetch at-least a trillion Rupees ( maybe 2 trillion) but also kickstart the construction materials and cement industries. Massive employment would be created without any further debt burden. The military installations could be re-located again away from city centres on existing government land lying waste & unutilised.
Above is the simplest and the most non-abrasive solution to the present economic quagmire. But will the military co-operate in a positive manner and put their money where their mouth is ? If they´re half the patriots they claim to be, I´m sure they´ll give it a serious thought.
#101 Posted by bahmad on December 22, 1999 12:31:38 am
Musharraf`s Address: Raise for Grade 1-16
Two main objectives of General Musharraf`s recent address, according to a commentator, were poverty alleviation and self-reliance. Where Musharraf announced several taxes which would significantly increase the prices of various goods and services, he announced a minuscule raise of Rs 100 per month for most government employees (grades 1-16). What difference will this raise make to alleviate poverty of the government employees? It would perhaps allow an average family to eat meat once a month (provided all other things remain the same). The following letter also questions the intelligence of the new regime.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
Dawn Internet Edition
December 22, 1999; Letter to the Editor
Rs 100 raise
I was really amazed and shocked to hear about the Rs100 increase for government employees in the Chief Executive`s recent address to the nation. It seems as if the CE is not living in Pakistan otherwise he would have known that such a pittance cannot compensate for the skyrocketing price hikes and the increase in utility bills, etc.
ILYAS JABBAR
Karachi
Two main objectives of General Musharraf`s recent address, according to a commentator, were poverty alleviation and self-reliance. Where Musharraf announced several taxes which would significantly increase the prices of various goods and services, he announced a minuscule raise of Rs 100 per month for most government employees (grades 1-16). What difference will this raise make to alleviate poverty of the government employees? It would perhaps allow an average family to eat meat once a month (provided all other things remain the same). The following letter also questions the intelligence of the new regime.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
Dawn Internet Edition
December 22, 1999; Letter to the Editor
Rs 100 raise
I was really amazed and shocked to hear about the Rs100 increase for government employees in the Chief Executive`s recent address to the nation. It seems as if the CE is not living in Pakistan otherwise he would have known that such a pittance cannot compensate for the skyrocketing price hikes and the increase in utility bills, etc.
ILYAS JABBAR
Karachi
#100 Posted by bahmad on December 22, 1999 12:31:38 am
Cultural Politics in the Indus Valley
During the time of Sachal Sarmast the boundaries between various regions of the South Asian Subcontinent were not narrowly and artificially defined since the imagined communities of Sind and/or Punjab (for example) were much larger and, thus, overlapping. Shouldn`t we consider our existing regional boundaries as somewhat artificial? If yes, we need to learn more about the regions and people other those which provide a basis of our limited collective identities. The following article on Sachal Sarmast is a first step in such a direction.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
P.S. This post is especially for Sameer.
Dawn Internet Edition
December 21, 1999; Feature Article
A bridge between Sindh and Punjab
By STM
SACHAL Sarmast`s generation of Sindhi and Punjabi poets was not much worried about the deteriorating political conditions of the Muslim rule in the sub-continent. For instance, Shah Latif was not concerned with the internecine strife among the Mughals.
By frequently using Sarmad`s name as a martyr, Sachal had expressed his dislike of the way the Mughals were ruling over the dissidents or the non-Muslims but he was also sorry for them as they were being replaced by foreigners like the Afghans from Kabul and Europeans including the Dutch who had played havoc with the Sindhis living in port towns like Thatta. It had happened since Akbar`s time and during Sachal`s life, it were the British traders who had become a threat to the Sindhi people already divided into three states or provinces one of which was Khairpur to which Sachal belonged.
Sachal`s senior Punjab contemporaries like Bulleh Shah, Ali Hyder and Waris Shah were opposed to foreign invaders including the Afghans and the British. Bulleh Shah was sorry for the Mughals. While Ali Hyder and Najabat had witnessed the invasion and plunder of Nadir Shah and had strongly condemned it. Both of them severely criticized the role of many wazirs of the Mughal court including Nizamul Mulk. The two poets accused the Mughal ministers of conspiring against their rulers and the people. Waris Shah had witnessed the invasions of Ahmad Shah Abdali. He condemned both Nadir Shah and Ahmad Shah.
Sachal Sarmast also followed his senior Punjabi contemporaries and expressed his concern first on the in-house fighting of the Mughals, the Muslims and the regions. In his time, even Sindh had to face the wrath of Nadir Shah and later at the hands of the successors to Ahmad Shah Durrani including Shah Shuja.
Sachal was trained and educated in Arabic and Persian also while Sindhi was his mother tongue while Punjabi/Seraiki was the language spoken throughout the Indus valley. Hence Sachal wrote poetry in all of these languages and he is called a poet of seven languages.
Sachal`s Persian poetry is normally on the traditional sufi pattern but his concern about the political conditions in his time had been aired in Persian because probably its official status prompted Sachal to do so. In one of his Persian poems, he had surveyed the political situation of the sub-continent and feared that the Whites would replace the local rulers Urdu got special attention from the Delhi rulers and after Persian it was also used as the second official language. Therefore, Sachal also used Urdu to convey his message, but not with as much clarity as he had used in Persian. He used Sindhi to convey his fears about the advancing colonial forces. He warned the Sindhi rulers and the people about the dangers that lay ahead. In Sindhi poetry, Sachal traditional themes of love, romance and mysticism were used well while same was the case with Seraiki-Punjabi which was the mother-tongue of the Baloch rulers of Hyderabad, Thatta and Khairpur-cum Bhakkar.
The same was the case with Multan`s Pathan rulers who had disassociated themselves from the Delhi darbar. They owed their allegiance to the Kabul rulers, who had repeatedly clashed with the Punjabi and Delhi rulers. When Delhi failed to stop the onslaught of the Afghans, Lahore governors also played a double role. For instance, Mir Munno and later his wife, Mughlani Begum, accepted the authority of the Kabul rulers while at the same time acknowledging Mughal authority.
This disenchanted the local population and ultimately a militant group emerged in the Punjab and the Frontier which stopped the Afghan invasions on the one side and took the charge of the Punjab on this side of the river Sutlej and declared their independence. They had a religious background also but that was a factor of secondary importance. The success of the Sikhs was mainly due to the continuous Mughal-Pathan strife. The Sikhs, in the eyes of Sachal Sarmast, became a threat to the weak and separatist Muslim states like Bahawalpur, Multan, Bhakkar, Monkeera and Khairpur. Sachal had also expressed concern on ascendancy of the Sikhs. These were the conditions in which this son of Sindh was trying his best to convey his political message to all the regions in the Indus Valley.
Sachal Sarmast was not a political figure nor was he a reformist. He was just a sensitive poet of love and mystcism for whom romances like Umar-Marvi, Sohni-Mahinwal, Heer-Ranjha and Sassi-Punnu were more inspiring the warriors and rulers of his time. He was closer to Mansur Hallaj, Sarmad and the other servants.
As he says:
Where there a crowd of men be,
There myself you will not see.
My head I am ready to sacrifice
Like Hallaj his will suffice.
(Translation by G Allana)
His approach towards the love stories of the land is quite in keeping with the tradition of the sufis of other lands:
He says about Heer and the jogis:
O mother, today away departed
The yogis, whose ears are pierced.
Playing on their flutes a melody,
They intoxicated my mind and body,
O mother, how can I ever forget,
The love of the yogis without regret?
(G. Allana)
Sachal was as fluent in Punjabi as in Sindhi. His diwan bears testimony to this. Therefore, he is rightly regarded as a bridge between Sindh and the Punjab.
During the time of Sachal Sarmast the boundaries between various regions of the South Asian Subcontinent were not narrowly and artificially defined since the imagined communities of Sind and/or Punjab (for example) were much larger and, thus, overlapping. Shouldn`t we consider our existing regional boundaries as somewhat artificial? If yes, we need to learn more about the regions and people other those which provide a basis of our limited collective identities. The following article on Sachal Sarmast is a first step in such a direction.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
P.S. This post is especially for Sameer.
Dawn Internet Edition
December 21, 1999; Feature Article
A bridge between Sindh and Punjab
By STM
SACHAL Sarmast`s generation of Sindhi and Punjabi poets was not much worried about the deteriorating political conditions of the Muslim rule in the sub-continent. For instance, Shah Latif was not concerned with the internecine strife among the Mughals.
By frequently using Sarmad`s name as a martyr, Sachal had expressed his dislike of the way the Mughals were ruling over the dissidents or the non-Muslims but he was also sorry for them as they were being replaced by foreigners like the Afghans from Kabul and Europeans including the Dutch who had played havoc with the Sindhis living in port towns like Thatta. It had happened since Akbar`s time and during Sachal`s life, it were the British traders who had become a threat to the Sindhi people already divided into three states or provinces one of which was Khairpur to which Sachal belonged.
Sachal`s senior Punjab contemporaries like Bulleh Shah, Ali Hyder and Waris Shah were opposed to foreign invaders including the Afghans and the British. Bulleh Shah was sorry for the Mughals. While Ali Hyder and Najabat had witnessed the invasion and plunder of Nadir Shah and had strongly condemned it. Both of them severely criticized the role of many wazirs of the Mughal court including Nizamul Mulk. The two poets accused the Mughal ministers of conspiring against their rulers and the people. Waris Shah had witnessed the invasions of Ahmad Shah Abdali. He condemned both Nadir Shah and Ahmad Shah.
Sachal Sarmast also followed his senior Punjabi contemporaries and expressed his concern first on the in-house fighting of the Mughals, the Muslims and the regions. In his time, even Sindh had to face the wrath of Nadir Shah and later at the hands of the successors to Ahmad Shah Durrani including Shah Shuja.
Sachal was trained and educated in Arabic and Persian also while Sindhi was his mother tongue while Punjabi/Seraiki was the language spoken throughout the Indus valley. Hence Sachal wrote poetry in all of these languages and he is called a poet of seven languages.
Sachal`s Persian poetry is normally on the traditional sufi pattern but his concern about the political conditions in his time had been aired in Persian because probably its official status prompted Sachal to do so. In one of his Persian poems, he had surveyed the political situation of the sub-continent and feared that the Whites would replace the local rulers Urdu got special attention from the Delhi rulers and after Persian it was also used as the second official language. Therefore, Sachal also used Urdu to convey his message, but not with as much clarity as he had used in Persian. He used Sindhi to convey his fears about the advancing colonial forces. He warned the Sindhi rulers and the people about the dangers that lay ahead. In Sindhi poetry, Sachal traditional themes of love, romance and mysticism were used well while same was the case with Seraiki-Punjabi which was the mother-tongue of the Baloch rulers of Hyderabad, Thatta and Khairpur-cum Bhakkar.
The same was the case with Multan`s Pathan rulers who had disassociated themselves from the Delhi darbar. They owed their allegiance to the Kabul rulers, who had repeatedly clashed with the Punjabi and Delhi rulers. When Delhi failed to stop the onslaught of the Afghans, Lahore governors also played a double role. For instance, Mir Munno and later his wife, Mughlani Begum, accepted the authority of the Kabul rulers while at the same time acknowledging Mughal authority.
This disenchanted the local population and ultimately a militant group emerged in the Punjab and the Frontier which stopped the Afghan invasions on the one side and took the charge of the Punjab on this side of the river Sutlej and declared their independence. They had a religious background also but that was a factor of secondary importance. The success of the Sikhs was mainly due to the continuous Mughal-Pathan strife. The Sikhs, in the eyes of Sachal Sarmast, became a threat to the weak and separatist Muslim states like Bahawalpur, Multan, Bhakkar, Monkeera and Khairpur. Sachal had also expressed concern on ascendancy of the Sikhs. These were the conditions in which this son of Sindh was trying his best to convey his political message to all the regions in the Indus Valley.
Sachal Sarmast was not a political figure nor was he a reformist. He was just a sensitive poet of love and mystcism for whom romances like Umar-Marvi, Sohni-Mahinwal, Heer-Ranjha and Sassi-Punnu were more inspiring the warriors and rulers of his time. He was closer to Mansur Hallaj, Sarmad and the other servants.
As he says:
Where there a crowd of men be,
There myself you will not see.
My head I am ready to sacrifice
Like Hallaj his will suffice.
(Translation by G Allana)
His approach towards the love stories of the land is quite in keeping with the tradition of the sufis of other lands:
He says about Heer and the jogis:
O mother, today away departed
The yogis, whose ears are pierced.
Playing on their flutes a melody,
They intoxicated my mind and body,
O mother, how can I ever forget,
The love of the yogis without regret?
(G. Allana)
Sachal was as fluent in Punjabi as in Sindhi. His diwan bears testimony to this. Therefore, he is rightly regarded as a bridge between Sindh and the Punjab.
#99 Posted by jay on December 22, 1999 12:31:38 am
WAR IN ANOTHER FRONT
FROM iNDIA TODAY
FAKE CURRENCY
Notes of Alarm
The countrywide seizures of counterfeit Indian currency with face value of crores reveal a diabolic design by Pakistan`s ISI to finance its proxy war and undermine the Indian economy.
By Ramesh Vinayak
On the face of it, there was nothing wrong with the Rs 2.5 lakh cache -- Rs 100 notes, serialised and neatly stapled, and as crisp as they come from the Reserve Bank of India. It had come as part of a Punjab Police-seized consignment that also included an AK-47 rifle, 6 kg of RDX and 10 kg of opium. But there seemed nothing more to it. Then one of the Pakistani smugglers arrested with the consignment revealed that the notes were counterfeit. The police wouldn`t believe him at first. They thrashed the captive and accused him of misleading them. But after examining the currency note under ultra-violet light, the police realised the smuggler wasn`t lying. He also revealed that scores of such caches had been routed to India from across the border.
Counterfeit money appears to be Pakistan`s latest weapon against India. According to intelligence sources, the ISI has been pumping in huge consignments of counterfeit notes, believed to be printed in Muzaffarabad in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, through the porous borders as part of its plan to undermine the Indian economy and sustain its own proxy war. Security officials across the country -- in the border states of Punjab, Jammu and Kashmir and Rajasthan as well as Uttar Pradesh, Maharashtra, Bihar and even distant Assam -- have seized fake currency with face value of crores in the past year or so.
FROM iNDIA TODAY
FAKE CURRENCY
Notes of Alarm
The countrywide seizures of counterfeit Indian currency with face value of crores reveal a diabolic design by Pakistan`s ISI to finance its proxy war and undermine the Indian economy.
By Ramesh Vinayak
On the face of it, there was nothing wrong with the Rs 2.5 lakh cache -- Rs 100 notes, serialised and neatly stapled, and as crisp as they come from the Reserve Bank of India. It had come as part of a Punjab Police-seized consignment that also included an AK-47 rifle, 6 kg of RDX and 10 kg of opium. But there seemed nothing more to it. Then one of the Pakistani smugglers arrested with the consignment revealed that the notes were counterfeit. The police wouldn`t believe him at first. They thrashed the captive and accused him of misleading them. But after examining the currency note under ultra-violet light, the police realised the smuggler wasn`t lying. He also revealed that scores of such caches had been routed to India from across the border.
Counterfeit money appears to be Pakistan`s latest weapon against India. According to intelligence sources, the ISI has been pumping in huge consignments of counterfeit notes, believed to be printed in Muzaffarabad in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, through the porous borders as part of its plan to undermine the Indian economy and sustain its own proxy war. Security officials across the country -- in the border states of Punjab, Jammu and Kashmir and Rajasthan as well as Uttar Pradesh, Maharashtra, Bihar and even distant Assam -- have seized fake currency with face value of crores in the past year or so.
#98 Posted by jay on December 22, 1999 12:31:38 am
DEFINING KASHMIR PROBLEM.
There are a lot of chowkwalas seeking solution to Kashmir problem with out attempting a definition of it , and the different and varying perceptions of it between the two countries and over time. Kashmir is a Pakistan problem, the recent attempts by general PM to make it into a global problem by talking up the nuclear option of Pakistan will remain a bluster. The pervasive reporting of Kashmir news in the Pak media has created an illusion of Kashmir as a burning issue on both sides of the trenches. If any one cares to see the Indian newspapers, Kashmir is one of the regular run of the mill issues in India, between Bhopal, Bofors Bihar.
Kashmir is a multi-dimensional problem for Pakistan, foreign policy, economic and above all religious. The religious aspect of Kashmir is the most intractable and as such there can be no “solution” other than the transfer of Muslim majority areas of Kashmir to Pakistan. .In simple and may be even simplistic words that people can understand, Pakistan was created as a homeland for the Muslims because Muslims and Hindus cannot live in peace.( I have to, TNT). In the process of partition to realise this dream, many injustices were done to the muslims, Hyderabad, Junaghar etc, which many chowkirdars still complain about, and the biggest of them all, Kashmir. Pakistan, the home land of the Muslims remain incomplete because Kashmir is not part of it. Creation of Pakistan is based on religion and that alone, and hence its realisation is a religious dictate, liberation of Kashmir is a jihad. The mums and dads have realised this, the ‘diplomatic and moral’ support the govt will have to provide and the war will continue. Some of the similarities with the arab-israel conflict is striking, attack on the Indian troops are ‘claimed’ by some organisation in Pakistan, the bomb blasts in ‘Azad’ Kashmir is stone walled. One thing significant in ‘he had no choice’ article is the statement that Pakistan is also part of west asia, that is from a person closest to general PM and he has well and truly introduced the west asian dimension to Kashmir.
The erstwhile rulers of Pakistan have avoided this central issue, they have sought political solutions, relegating the religious imports, repeating ad-noseum one speech by one dead man.. The developments in Pakistan over the last fifty years has evolved in line with its seeding imperatives and the version of history taught to the children. The politico economic situation of Pakistan today, many chowkirdars want to see as an aberration a product of some extraneous factors, ‘corruption’, ‘in-competence’ as if theses have come in the last downpour. The situation in Pakistan is systemic, it can be traced to its principle of creation, ranging from cricket bribery to Kashmir
General PM is honest in his utterances on Kashmir, he understands the Pak psyche stripped of the veneer of modernity and progressiveness which the chowkirdars tend to enamour. Nothing other than a plebicite where the outcome is in favour of Pakistan will be acceptable. Peace is a vague concept, what is the acceptable kill rate in peace.
At least for the sake of argument, having undermined TNT and betrayed Pakistan, `temporal` may have enough time to respond before the midnight knock.
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