Resolving the Hijack Crisis

bahmad #125

Dear Bilal Ahmad,

I appreciate the spirit of your posting. I agree with you that each government`s `inability to keep its house in order` plays into the hostility of the other.

Sadhana

PS: Best wishes for the New Year, to all on Chowk. Also, thanks SameerJB, and `kabhi unko kabhi apne chowk-id ko dekhte hain`

(:-))

I have some comments to the article about the `Crisis in India-Pakistan relations`.

As long as lip service was paid to `peaceful negotiations`, Indian government had sufficient reasons to promote them. There has indeed been a hardening of the Indian stance, and the Pakistani refusal to accept Kargil as a cause is unrealistic. How did Kargil contribute to peace and stability in the region which India`s rhetoric is jeopardizing so much now?

The distinction between Pakistani government and militants was badly blurred during the Kargil crisis. It would be criminally negligent for a government to give the Pakistani government a clean chit without enough cause after such an incident.

If Pakistan so openly makes guns the currency of dialogue, why expect India to return to `talks`. Arguing that Pakistan has a right to openly use arms in Indian Kashmir only opens the door for India to stir trouble in PoK. Also, if militant organisations regularly issue statements

from Pakistani soil, its difficult for the Indian public not to ascribe delibrate intent to the Pakistani government, as is ascribed to India by common Pakistanis during the Bangladesh crisis.

To angry young Chowkwallahs from across the border here is a challenge:

Can you reach agreement among yourselves about what your government wants and what you want:

About Kashmir

a1. Piece of Indian Kashmir for yourselves

a2. Piece of Indian Kashmir for Kashmiris sympathetic to Pakistan

a3. Piece of Indian Kashmir as new holy land of Wahabi Islam

a4. All of Indian Kashmir as new holy land for Wahabi Islam

a5. All of Indian Kashmir for all Kashmiris including non-Muslims

a6. All of Kashmir * for all Kashmiris including non-Muslims

a7. All of Kashmir * for yourselves.

a8. Any part of Kashmir(or any part of India) demanded at any time, till perpetuity

*(excluding Chinese Kashmir)

About Pakistan

b1. Secular democracy/oligarchy?

b2. Islamic to some extent democracy/oligarchy

b3. Totally Islamic theocracy

`a` choices may depend on `b` choices.

I suspect in some cases, the answer to both is `death to India`

How are Indians to know which choices will triumph in Pakistan? Can any long-lasting settlement with Pakistan be reached without these issues being made clear?

Sadhana

RE: Reply#: 119 fh

``tvarad - ``There are more than 130 million Muslims in India, the richest Indian is a Muslim ....``

I find this an incredibly naive comment - basic statistics - we should be talking about averages (and standard deviations) rather than individual cases. e.g. Michael Jordan is a millionaire but that doesn`t reflect the fact that in the US Afro-Americans have incomes about 60% of whites, etc.``

I never did make the statement that everything was hunky-dory for Muslims in India, did I? It is what you get when you take a statement out of context. The point I was trying to make is that Muslims in India have a shot at the big-leagues if they so choose unlike minorities in Pakistan and I gave the above example to validate my statement. Now social imbalances between Muslims and Non-Muslims do exist in India. But there are also social imbalances between Dalits and Higher-Castes, between sub-castes; between North and South and the like. India has made a genuine attempt at reducing these imbalances with which no one can argue, by reducing feudalism, establishing quotas and the like. And, of course, there is no doubt that much more needs to be done.

Pakistan is a failure as a state because it has very clearly failed to address similar social imbalances which have only grown more acute as the problems are ignored further. It will probably be impossible for such change to happen peacefully because there are too many vested interests who won`t let go of their pound of flesh.

``And the politicians/ elites induct members of an oppressed minority to show how well represented their administrations are - e.g. the right wing BJP had a muslim minister.``

That may be but remember that the BJP government is kept in power by it`s coalition partners many of whom rely heavily on the Muslim vote for their power and have been instrumental in getting it to tone down it`s Hindutva rhetoric (e.g. Telugu Desam) and provide good governance. Pakistan should try democracy for a longer time. It will find strange ways to accomodate the pushes and pulls of it`s body politic too.

RE: Reply#: 119 fh

``tvarad - ``There are more than 130 million Muslims in India, the richest Indian is a Muslim ....``

I find this an incredibly naive comment - basic statistics - we should be talking about averages (and standard deviations) rather than individual cases. e.g. Michael Jordan is a millionaire but that doesn`t reflect the fact that in the US Afro-Americans have incomes about 60% of whites, etc.``

I never did make the statement that everything was hunky-dory for Muslims in India, did I? It is what you get when you take a statement out of context. The point I was trying to make is that Muslims in India have a shot at the big-leagues if they so choose unlike minorities in Pakistan and I gave the above example to validate my statement. Now social imbalances between Muslims and Non-Muslims do exist in India. But there are also social imbalances between Dalits and Higher-Castes, between sub-castes; between North and South and the like. India has made a genuine attempt at reducing these imbalances with which no one can argue, by reducing feudalism, establishing quotas and the like. And, of course, there is no doubt that much more needs to be done.

Pakistan is a failure as a state because it has very clearly failed to address similar social imbalances which have only grown more acute as the problems are ignored further. It will probably be impossible for such change to happen peacefully because there are too many vested interests who won`t let go of their pound of flesh.

``And the politicians/ elites induct members of an oppressed minority to show how well represented their administrations are - e.g. the right wing BJP had a muslim minister.``

That may be but remember that the BJP government is kept in power by it`s coalition partners many of whom rely heavily on the Muslim vote for their power and have been instrumental in getting it to tone down it`s Hindutva rhetoric (e.g. Telugu Desam) and provide good governance. Pakistan should try democracy for a longer time. It will find strange ways to accomodate the pushes and pulls of it`s body politic too.

Whither Indo-Pak Relations?

Dr. Hasan-Askari Rizvi`s article (reproduced below) raises several issues. The answers of some of the issues are not only difficult but are virtually impossible. Rizvi contends that the Indian government has launched a propaganda implicating Pakistan (especially ISI) for masterminding the recent hijacking (with the support of Taliban and Osama bin Laden).

A lot of citizens of Pakistan and India often blindly support the positions taken by their respective countries. From such a standpoint, they often doubt the intentions and integrity of the other party and view its aspirations, policies, and actions as somewhat evil. Although there may be some element of truth in the propaganda against the other party, the policy of looking at the other party`s faults is often a result of each government`s inability to keep its own house in order. Citizens of both India and Pakistan need to realize this simple fact before engaging in endless and unnecessary bickering that rarely helps anyone. We need to adopt a policy of cooperation and competition rather than an unwise policy of mutual-destruction.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

The Nation, Lahore

Sunday, January 02, 2000

Crisis in India-Pakistan relations

Dr Hasan-Askari Rizvi

The dawn of the new millennium is witnessing a steep deterioration of relations between India and Pakistan. There have been ups and downs in India-Pakistan relations in the past, but what happened in the last week of December is the most unfortunate and serious crisis in their relations in the decade of the nineties. This crisis developed when the Indian media and the government used the hijacking of its aircraft on December 24, 1999, to launch a massive propaganda campaign against Pakistan, accusing its ISI of masterminding and executing the hijacking by using Kathmandu as the base of the operation. They claimed that India was a victim of an international terrorist conspiracy carried out by Pakistan, the Taliban and Osama bin Laden. The Indian leaders proposed that the international community should adopt a joint strategy to deal with such initiators of terrorism and apply strict sanctions against Pakistan.

Indian charges against Pakistan were either self-contradictory and the India media continued to change these from time to time, or were contradicted by the Napalese government, the station manager of Indian Airlines at Kathmandu Airport, and inadvertent release of some information by the Indian government. With the passage of time, the attitude of Indian media and the government softened towards the Taliban but Pakistan was not allowed off the hook. At times, it appeared that India was more interested in maligning Pakistan rather than bringing the hijacking to an end. Pakistan`s media and the government responded to Indian propaganda with no less vigour, pointing out inconsistencies in the Indian case against Pakistan and India`s flawed management of the hijacking. The Pakistani analysts hinted at the possibility of Indian intelligence staging the hijacking in order to have Pakistan declared a terrorist state by the international community. All this resulted in a full-blown propaganda war between the media (official, semi-official and non-official) of the two countries.

The latest Indian attempt to label Pakistan as a terrorist and irresponsible state is a return to the strategy India first adopted in 1992-93 when it engaged in a sustained campaign for persuading the US to declare Pakistan a terrorist state on the grounds that the militant Islamic groups based in Afghanistan and Pakistan challenged the established order in several countries. What perturbed India most was Pakistani support to the nationalist struggle in Indian-administered Kashmir and the involvement of some Pakistan-based groups with the separatist movement in Kashmir. This strategy waned as the US indicated that it would not designate Pakistan as a terrorist state. This gave a boost to the efforts to improve India-Pakistan relations. India revived the campaign against Pakistan, describing it as a major base and sponsor of international terrorism, in the course of the Kargil war in May-July 1999. Unknown pro-India circles placed a full-page advertisement in The Times, London, New York Times and the Washington Post, which described the Pakistan Army as a rogue army that had supported and resorted to terrorism outside of Pakistan. Since then this campaign has remained India`s active agenda, which reached its climax in the immediate aftermath of the hijacking of the Indian aircraft on December 24, 1999.

The same attitude shaped India`s policy of non-acceptance of the establishment of the military government in Pakistan in October 1999. India`s official and non-official circles sharply condemned the displacement of the elected government in Pakistan and described the assumption of power by the military as a threat to peace and stability in the region. Indian radio has been putting out negative commentaries since then, specifically targeting General Pervez Musharraf for his alleged links with Islamic ``terrorists`` and that the Pakistan Army would now have greater opportunities to promote ``terrorist activities`` in the region. India adopted an extremely negative attitude towards the new Pakistani government in the Commonwealth Conference in November and had the SAARC summit conference postponed because of the coup in Pakistan, although other members wanted it to take place as scheduled. When Pakistan`s Commerce Minister sought a meeting with his Indian counterpart on the eve of the WTO meeting, the Indian government declined as it did not want to talk to a senior member of Pakistan`s military government. However, the Indian Foreign Minister made a telephone call to Pakistan`s Foreign Minister after the hijacking incident.

The post-1999 election Indian government of Vajpayee has significantly altered its approach towards Pakistan. Instead of mutual engagement, confidence-building measures and dialogue on the contentious issues, the present Indian government is pursuing a strident approach for substantiating that Pakistan is a pariah state. India would prefer international economic and political sanctions against Pakistan similar to those imposed on Iraq, Libya and Iran.

It seems the present Indian government has come to the conclusion that Pakistan, an obstacle to achieving India`s foreign policy objectives, needs to be put in its place. It was no longer acceptable to the policy makers that a smaller state should try to undermine its security concerns. Furthermore, it is believed that given Pakistan`s economic predicament, it would not be able to withstand India`s diplomatic and military pressures. A strident approach towards Pakistan also helped to externalize all the blame for the problems in Kashmir. It appears that the Indian government has accepted the argument of a section of the right wing/hard-liners that Pakistan needs to be pushed to the wall, if not physically punished, in order to bring the situation in Kashmir under control.

India got the opportunity to embark on a tough policy towards Pakistan due to Western/US paranoia regarding Islamic militant groups that vowed to undermine American interests. The US alarm at the Afghan war veterans, Islamic militant groups, especially Osama bin Laden, and the Taliban provided a suitable backdrop to India for linking the Pakistani state with these groups. As the US had declared Harkatul Ansar/Mujahideen as a terrorist group, India concocted the Pakistani state`s partnership with this outfit. Anybody watching India-based TV channels or listening to Indian Radio during this week knows about the velocity of the Indian campaign for proving that Pakistan is an integral part of the Harkatul Ansar-Osama-Taliban ``terrorist network`` and that the Pakistani state machinery (especially the Army) is responsible for the activities of these and several other Islamic groups. By implication, the hijacking of the Indian aircraft is yet another evidence of Pakistan`s sponsorship of international terrorism.

Pakistan`s attitude has also hardened towards India as a defensive mechanism. Pakistan has generally reacted to the propaganda rather than taking the initiative. Pakistan`s TV channels and radio offered rejoinders to the Indian media`s effort to blame Pakistan for the hijacking. The Government of Pakistan changed its policy on Kashmir, declaring on December 27 that Kashmir would be on the top of the agenda in any dialogue with India. General Pervez Musharraf said: ``Earlier we used to say that we will negotiate all issues including Kashmir. But now we will discuss the Kashmir issue first,`` and that their relations cannot improve without resolving the Kashmir problem.

Indian attempts to obtain international support for its case of Pakistan`s alleged involvement in terrorism is not expected to succeed. The US/West is wary of the activities of certain extreme Islamic groups. But the US administration does not lump together all Islamic movements and countries, although Western media often ignores this distinction. Furthermore, unlike India, the US interests are not served by isolating and condemning Pakistan as a terrorist state. No doubt, India is a powerful state and the US recognises its centrality to South Asia, but the US is not likely to follow on ``either-or`` approach while dealing with India or Pakistan. Both are important in their own right and sacrificing one for the other is not an advisable strategy. Therefore, no matter if India and the US have some sharing of agenda regarding Islamic ``terrorism``, India`s agenda against Pakistan and its desire to become the gatekeeper for the transactions between the states of South Asia and the rest of the world are not going to materialise. The US pursues on engagement policy while dealing with the states of South Asia and it wants to modify the policies of these states through constant engagement and positive and negative interaction. This approach is not expected to change in the near future.

India needs to adopt a more realistic approach towards Kashmir. It cannot put all the blame for what is happening there at the doorstep of Pakistan. There are strong domestic sources of the on-going insurgency in Kashmir and the ordinary Kashmiri Muslim is totally alienated from the Indian state. No doubt, strong societal linkages exist between Pakistan and Pakistan-administered Kashmir on the one hand, and Indian-administered Kashmir on the other; these are not the primary cause of the trouble in Kashmir. When the same type of people live across a political divide that have a strong sense of historical injustice, mutual support is understandable. India must not forget its own experience during the Bangladesh crisis period, 1971. The linkages between West and East Bengal and between the Indian polity and the Bangladesh movement produced military, political and material support from India to the Bangladesh movement. In the case of Kashmir, how can one ignore the strong historical, cultural, ethnic, linguistic ties between Pakistanis and Kashmiris and their overlapping political goals? Therefore, a realistic approach that explores different options for the solution of the Kashmir problem rather than Indian insistence on no talks on Kashmir`s future can improve the regional security environment in South Asia.

India and Pakistan need to follow a policy of mutual engagement and result-oriented dialogue on all the contentious issues. The new Pakistani policy on Kashmir is a tactical move. If there is a shift in India`s current policy on Pakistan, the Government of Pakistan is expected to revert to the earlier policy of simultaneous dialogue on Kashmir and other issues.

The salvation of South Asia depends on peace and stability and socio-economic development. These goals cannot be achieved if the on-going crisis in Indo-Pakistan relations persists. The present high tension between India and Pakistan should not be allowed to become a permanent feature of their relations.

-- The Nation Group of Publications Pvt Limited

Propoganda indeed cuts both ways.

Leafing through a MiddleEastern newspaper, I came across three articles on a single page. One talked about how Pakistan was dissapointed by India`s ludicrous claim that the hijacking was an ISI-planned operation and nothing else. A second article had a Nepalese minister replying in blunt terms that the Nepalese people were offended by Indian diplomatic claims that one of the hijackers was Nepalese and that the Nepalese government was to be blamed as well. The third article was a note by Taliban militia calling India`s statement about Osama Bin Laden being the brains behind the hijacking a ``useless and untimely propoganda scheme``.

In the midst of it all, while Mr. Vajpayee does his best to save his seat, no Indian minister - or Indian intelligence for that matter - could ever answer the following simple three questions:

1. Why was the plane not prevented from leaving Amritsar? (The time factor excuse - according to the BBC - does not apply, since authorities knew the plane was hijacked as soon as it had ENTERED Indian air space from the border which is all the way across the country).

2. The plane had landed in Dubai as well. Why weren`t the authorities in Dubai asked to prevent the plane from leaving as they were in Lahore, and even after the plane left, why weren`t they condemned for it as Pakistan was?

3. The inital passenger list released by the Indian media did not include any Pakistanis at all. Where on earth did four Pakistanis turn up from and when they did enter the plane, what nationality did they enter under(this can be easily figured out through the passenger list by process of elimination)? All this is, of course, after the hijackers were mentioned to be Nepalese, Kashmiris, Afghanis, Chechnyians and even Indians.

Does anybody in India know that the two Indian passengers released earlier were treated in Pakistani hospitals?

And the food for the aircraft while it stayed in Afghanistan came from Pakistan?

In a region where India does its best to cover its own impotence in handling a crisis situation by scapegoating Pakistan for everything (quite obviously in the hopes of having it declared a terrorist state), it would not surprise me if I found an article in the Indian media with the headline:

``Pakistan`s ISI behind massive floods and other natural disasters.``

Using the terminology of Islamic militants who divide the world into Dar-ul-Islam and Dar-ul-harb and believe violence is justifiable in Dar-ul-harb, I divide the world into Dar-ul-Secular and Dar-ul-Harb. Kashmir is Dar-ul-harb and violence is justified till it becomes Dar-ul-Secular.

Ummairr:

There is far more justification of the Indian charge of a Pakistani hand than the Pakistani charge of the hijacking being a RAW plot. The Lakshar-e-Toiba openly takes credit for assaults on Indian forces and has mass meetings in Muridke. The hijackers breathe free and are much less tense in Kandahar than Amritsar - it is clear they feel a lot more comfortable in Taliban (a Pakistani creation) territory than say the UAE. At some point ``moral`` and ``political`` support for violent groups fighting for Kashmiri independence becomes complicity. When and where that point is a matter of judgement - in the eyes of many Indians, myself included, the Pakistani establishment is complicit in violent acts of terrorism. You may feel the same way regarding the complicity of the Indian establishment in Army excesses against Kashmir civilians. I feel that way too - the whole Indian population is not doing enough to stop it. At the same time, I find Pakistan politics at their core ridiculous and illiberal and I dont believe that the liberal beliefs of Indian secularism should thrown in the towel to Islamic manifest destiny in Kashmir. Kargil should have demonstrated to the world and to the Kashmiris that the Indian belief in their cause does not consist merely of shooting at people from a position of strength but also includes many officers and jawans going willingly to meet their deaths in defense of this cause.

Kafir K Khan (aka KKK)

Re post#114

Its precisely that kind of racist thinking that has flushed our two nations down the same toilet.When you comment about the justice system & corruption in India, the resounding reply is ---LOOK WHO`S TALKING!! THE POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK!!

I could take cheap shots at Islam, but that would be coming down to your level. Besides, I happen to have respect for every religion.

Logically, the only place that these hijackers have gone to is Pakistan. If the Pak Govt really want to look good in the eyes of the world (for a change), they should arrest both the hijackers & the 3 released terrorists & send them back to India.

Think of the diplomatic fallout--the whole world will hail them as the ``defenders of justice``, not to mention the adulation of a billion Indians. Lastly, wouldnt Pakistan be really THRILLED to watch the BJP & Jaswant publically eat their words?!

Somehow I have very serious doubts that they have the guts to do that..

kafir K khan #109

{Pakistan produces less than 40 Ph.Ds a year as compare to 1200 per year by Indian Universities. India is doing favorably well in biotechnology, space and software engineering. All this is happening because India`s core industries and institutions were allowed to flourish between 50`s and 70`s}

Some more data supporting your above statement. Indians’ expertise in software is well known. What surprised me was an article in Wall Street Journal last week on India’s medical industry and how reverse engineering is leading now to expertise in developing new drugs. New Delhi firm Ranbaxy (market cap 3 billion dollars) was dicussed in detail. 14 out of every 100 researchers working in US pharmaceutical labs are of Indian origin. Very impressive indeed.

Re: sadna Reply #: 112

Masood spent 6 years in Indian jails while Zargar spent 8. I feel that these many years are sure to have brought about a change in their psyche. So I don`t think we will see either of them in Kashmir again. The thought of being caught again - with almost certainity of collecting a one-way ticket this time - will be too scary. As a report said, they will probably spend time in some other Islamic country (Sudan, SA) while allowing the hijacking to `cool off`, before returning to pakistan.

The hijackers present great danger to pakistan at the moment, in terms of revealing their identities. It is in pakistans interest to liquidate them at the earliest and this is what will happen I think.

Meanwhile let us Indians sit on our 400 nuclear bombs. Maybe some of them will hatch.

InterAct! 112
``Here is a repost. BTW has anyone noticed the dates on chowk.com show year 100? ``

Dear Sadna:

The visible naming naming scheme is [author name][month]_[2 digit day][2digit year]. 100 is actually ``Jan_0100`` Internally we track the 4 digit year.

Sincerely
Chowk Staff

Here is a repost. BTW has anyone noticed the dates on chowk.com show year 100?

The recent hijacking episode has not only revealed India`s unpreparedness for a crisis of this kind but it has also been an embarrassing example(not the first or the last) for the Pakistan and Afghanistan governments of

`Hamaari hi billi, hami se meaow`.

It may be very difficult for India to bring the hijackers to justice, but it will be impossible for the Pakistani or Afghani governments to do if they ever feel compelled to do so. These governments are the greater hostages and they have not been released yet. It must be really scary for the Pakistani and Afghani governments to realise that their countries` foreign policies have dynamics or hands and feet not wholly under their control.

About where the hijackers will end up, thats easy. For 10 years, foreign fighters and loads of arms and ammunition have been falling out of the sky into Indian Kashmir. The hijackers will ascend into that very spot in the sky. While desis have sufficient mythological evidence to accept this, how to convince the unimaginative West. I predict a payoff in the near future.

Sadhana

Not far from New York Transit on 34th Street in New York is Kashmiri restaurant proudly presenting cuisine of Kashmiri chicken. A tourist entered the restaurant and ordered a chicken. After it was served, he would not eat. He enquired from the manager how was it made. The manager told him that it is cooked with spices and is utterly delicious. Tourist was still doubtful. Finally the chef was called to explain.

``I mean how is it made,`` he asked.

``Sir, we terrorise the chicken first, then we kill him Kashmiri style before we add spices``, chef explained.

No amount of Saudi money or ``Powder`` exprot (drug) is going to help Pakistani economy. Pakistan has to decide between trade and terrorism.

Pakistan`s education system needs revamping. It is at disadvantage when we look at our enemy India. India has achieved a landmark this year when it exported $ 1.2 bn of software this year. It is little less than Pakistan`s total currency reserve of $ 1.4 bn. So where is Pakistan spending its money ? We know it is not health ? Is it education ? Answer is - NO.

Pakistan produces less than 40 Ph.Ds a year as compare to 1200 per year by Indian Universities. India is doing favorably well in biotechnology, space and software engineering. All this is happening because India`s core industries and institutions were allowed to flourish between 50`s and 70`s. Pakistan did not do so. So where is Pakistani money disappearing. It is going to ISI and pockets of Generals and politicians. Pakistan has a choice to make. Spend money on education or remain fixated with ``India Syndrome``. No amount of Saudi money or ``Powder`` exprot (drug) is going to help Pakistani economy. Pakistan has to decide between trade and terrorism.

Re: all

this excerpt from the venerable (!) dawn talks about the average and the not so average pakistani mindset where he is always on a penis-contest with an India... What a shame for a nation to be obsessed with another ..........

Guinness Book mentions four Pakistanis

KARACHI, Jan 1: At least five Pakistanis have been mentioned in the millennium edition of the famous book of world records which is published every year by the Guinness World Records Ltd. The Shah Faisal Mosque and Indus Valley Civilization have also found a mention in it.

The Pakistanis whose names have made it to the edition, titled ``Guinness World Records 2000``, are: Abdul Sattar Edhi, Benazir Bhutto, Tahir Rashid, Wasim Akram and Wasim Bari. Shah Faisal Mosque has been described as the biggest mosque of the world and the Indus Valley Civilization has been mentioned under the category ``Biggest Ancient Civilization Discovery``.

Abdul Sattar Edhi`s institution has been described as the world`s biggest volunteer ambulance organization. According to the book, Sattar Edhi has not taken a day off during the past 45 years. His ambulances even pick up corpses and his soup kitchens feed 100,000 people a month.

``His radio-linked network includes 500 ambulances throughout Pakistan,`` says the publication. ``He has also set up 300 relief centres, three air ambulances, 24 hospitals, three drug rehabilitation centres, women`s centres, free dispensaries, adoption programmes and soup kitchens that feed 100,000 people a month.``

Edhi has paid for and supervised the training of 17,000 nurses, says the book. His organization, established in 1948, has now developed into a big welfare service which attracts funds of $5 million per year, without any government assistance, adds the book.

The book has included Benazir Bhutto`s name for her feat of bagging more than 98 per cent of the votes in her constituency during the 1990 general election. She obtained 94,462 - or 98.48 per cent - votes in the constituency Larkana III.

The other Pakistanis mentioned all hold records in the field of international cricket. Tahir Rashid has been mentioned because he brought about the highest number of dismissals in a first-class innings by a wicket-keeper. He completed eight catches and stumped once while playing for the Habib Bank against the PACO XI at Gujranwala in 1992. Tahir, the younger brother of former test cricketer Haroon Rashid, shares the record with Wayne James of Zimbabwe.

Wasim Bari has found his way into the edition for dismissing the most batsmen in a test innings. He caught seven of the New Zealand`s batsmen during a test innings at Auckland in 1979. Bari shares the record with Bob Taylor of England and Ian Smith of New Zealand.

The famous all-rounder Wasim Akram has been mentioned for taking most wickets in a One-Day-International career. He dismissed 371 batsmen in 265 matches from 1985 to 1999. He also holds the record of hitting the most sixes during an innings. He hit 12 sixes in his innings of 257 not out for Pakistan against Zimbabwe at Sheikhupura in 1996.

The book of records describes Shah Faisal Mosque as the biggest mosque complex in the world. A total of 100,000 people can say their prayers in its prayer hall, it says. An additional 200,000 people can be accommodated in the adjacent grounds.

The biggest ancient civilization discovery, according to the book, was made by the deserting British soldier Charles Manson. He discovered the remains of the ancient Indus Valley Civilization in the late 1880s.

Meanwhile, the book has mentioned a number of Indians. Most of the Indians mentioned are either from the Bombay film industry or the field of cricket. The edition has devoted a two-page section to ``Bollywood``, just as it has to Hollywood.

The Indian cricketers described as record holders are: Mohammed Azharuddin, Anil Kumble, Sachin Tendulkar and Yajurvendra Singh. The actors, actresses and artistes finding a mention are: Lalita Pawar, Satyajit Ray, Ramesh Sippy, Nutan, Lata Mangeshkar, Sanjeev Kumar, Dilip Kumar, Ashok Kumar, Shah Rukh Khan, Salman Khan, Asif Khan, Shabana Azmi, Amitabh Bachchan, Madhuri Dixit, Guru Dutt, Jairaj, Kajol and Karishma Kapore.

The politicians finding their way into the book are: M.K. Gandhi, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi. Besides these Indians, some others have also been mentioned for holding miscellaneous records like raising a hand for the longest length of time and having the longest moustache. - Nizamuddin Siddiqui

-- Rishi

IAS #105

You make some very valid points. I agree with you in that both India and Pakistan are responsible for the Kashmir problem, that both sides are responsible for the violence in their different ways. If the governments on either side were not prisoners to their own political ambitions, they could easily have solved the problem. One solution would be to declare Kashmir a free state, with Kashmiris having the right to self-government at the local level (thereby giving the Hindus in Jammu the same privilege of self-government that the Muslims elsewhere in Kashmir would enjoy), no military or foreign policy, and freedom guaranteed by a UN force that would also ensure free and visa-less passage to tourists and businessmen from elsewhere, including India and Pakistan. Kashmir could thus emerge as the first part of the world that is free from the bickering, incompetent nation-states of which Pakistan and India are perfect examples.

umairr,

Regd. Kashmir:

I am an Indian. I believe that there is a political problem in kashmir and it is our own making; that the Indian security forces are responsible for a large number of atrocities in kashmir; that pakistan is a large part of the problem; and that come what may, GOI will never agree to a plebiscite. In this note, i focus on pakistan as a complicating factor in the kashmir issue.

Many international observers believe that in kashmir insurgency today it is the foreigners(mostly from pakistan) who call the shots. (I will fish out the reports from the web if you want)

On many occassions you have talked about violence and kashmiris. From your remarks like ``if kashmiris stop the violence`` i get the impression that kashmir insurgency is wholly an affair between kashmiris and GOI as if pakistan is something like a mere observer. Do you believe that pakistan has no hand in training and arming foreigners to infiltrate into kashmir? Why do you underplay(or fail to mention) the deep involvement of pakistan in the present violence in kashmir? Do you think that such actions by pakistan is facilitating a solution?

On a different note has it occurred to you that the kashmiris might settle for something less than a plebiscite(with the option of independence)(I believe they would settle for ANYTHING that brings the violence to a stop)? How would pakistan react to that? How do you propose to disarm all your jihadi forces if GOI reaches some understanding with Hurriyat?

Insurgencies are not new to india. Right from the 50`s we have seen numerous movements for freedom with a high dose of HR violations in the north east, telengana, punjab etc. And in many of these GOI has talked to the insurgents and has reached an understanding for a political settlement. In many of these states former insurgents are chief ministers. The violence in NE has`nt completely stopped due to a minority which is`nt satisfied. But there is relative peace. I am not equating kashmir with any of these, but i cannot help feeling that things might have been considerably better for kashmiris if pakistan had not interfered and botched up the whole affair. Please think carefully and tell me what you think would most probably happen if pakistan stops its generous ``moral and political support`` to kashmiris. Do you think that GOI would wipe out all kashmiris? Is there a higher chance that kashmir might go the way of settlement like in NE? Would the army continue to stay in kashmir after such a settlement?

PM, 140,

I have to admit there, some times bad habits do get to me, especially during the festive season.

But again, I do not remeber to be all that you are telling, when the post is addressed to some one. I criticise and provoke the collective, individual views and opinions I respect.

The problem is, many cannot understand the distinction, and the link between the two.

Regards and best wishes.

Jay

Harish3#92.

“I understand and appreciate the Pakistani view that Kashmir should be able to decide its own fate. However, the Pakistanis must realize India’s point. If the people of sindh wanted to break away, would Pakistan allow it? Even if the majority of Sindhis wanted out?”

Perhaps this is what the Indian politicians had in mind that by the passage of time people will forget the history and can be duped in time to come.

Sorry -but the sentiments translate: BAGHAL MEIN CHURI MUNH MEIN RAM RAM!(Willing & ready to stab in the back!)

Umair#98.

Jaswant Singh is the person who knows what he has promised and been promised being the prime participant in the negotiations with the hijackers Talibans merely played moderators.

tariqlodi

Perhaps this is what the Indian politicians had in mind that by the passage of time people will forget the history and can be duped in time to come.

Sorry -but the sentiments translate: BAGHAL MEIN CHURI MUNH MEIN RAM RAM!(Willing & ready to stab in the back!)

UMAIRR#98.

Jaswant Singh is the person who knows what he has promised and been promised being the prime participant in the negotiations with the hijackers Talibans merely played moderators.

tariqlodi

RE Reply#: 96 Umairr

````I would not deny south asian muslims access to the places on the subcontinent they hold dear to them.`` My family migrated from Srinigar. My ancestors lost a lot of land and money. You don`t see me complaining. Any time new countries are formed, it is inevitable that this happens. Muslims lost way more land than Hindus. It should however be seen as a historical tragedy, and not be allowed to dictate the our future. As I said, Live and Let Live. And get out of history, and into the new century. If you are not happy with the creation of Pakistan, well that is your opinion. It does not necessarily mean it is correct. You make your own decisions for yourself, and let others make their own.``

You are contradicting yourself here. On the one hand you are saying that it is OK for your family to lose a lot of land and money and on the other you are saying you should live and let live. In this day and age, it is barbaric to be given the choice of either your life or your land simply because you look different or think different or pray differently. It was on this premise that Pakistan was created and it is why it is such a failure as a country. There are more than 130 million Muslims in India, the richest Indian is a Muslim, Muslims are involved in all spheres of national life such as politics, arts, education and the like. It is due to the liberal ethos of India that the grandson of the founder of Pakistan is one of it`s top industrialists while in Pakistan aspersions are cast on the elevation of a judge to the high-court simply because he is not a Muslim. The only difference between Indian Muslims and Pakistani Muslims is that Indian Muslims are not bothered about how their neighbor prays.

``These problems are not the result of partition, they are a result of not allowing people the freedom to decide their own future. All these problems would go away if people let others decide their own future, instead of deciding it for them. Kashmir is the primary example here. Why do you want to force people to live in your house who do not want to live with you? Why not be content as a friendly neighbor.``

Why is Pakistan so interested in someone else`s quest for freedom when, as we speak, Pakistan is itself under the rule of the gun?

http://secretary.state.gov/www/briefings/statements/1999/ps991231.html

U.S. Department of State

Office of the Spokesman

Press Statement

Press Statement by James B. Foley, Deputy Spokesman

December 31, 1999

RELEASE OF HOSTAGES FROM HIJACKING OF INDIAN AIRLINES

We join India and those other countries affected by the hijacking of Indian Airlines Flight 814 in welcoming home the hostages

who were released December 31. We reiterate our condemnation of this horrific and inhuman act.

We are gratified that the hijacking was resolved with no additional loss of life. Our sympathy goes out to the family of Mr.

Katyal, the Indian national who was killed during the hijacking. We wish to acknowledge the important role played by the

United Nations and the International Committee of the Red Cross, which provided valuable humanitarian support to alleviate

the plight of the hostages during this ordeal.

We were in close touch with the Indian government during this incident and were impressed by the tireless efforts of Prime

Minister A.B. Vajpayee, External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh, and other Indian officials to resolve the incident. We will

continue to work with India and others to strengthen our cooperation to combat international terrorism. As Prime Minister

Vajpayee said in his address to the Indian people on New Year’s Eve, ``The battle against terrorism can be won by all nations

acting together.``

The release of the hostages is not the end of the matter. We will work with other governments to see that those responsible are

brought to justice.

In this connection, all parties to the relevant international convention on aircraft hijacking are obliged to prosecute or extradite

those who committed this hijacking and the murder of Mr. Katyal during the course of it. This should be our highest priority in

the days ahead.

[end of document]

CELEBRATION TO A RESPITE

I have tried for so long to find some common grounds, even grounds of discord that can be converted to an event to celebrate. Ever since the independence, the two countries haven`t celebrated the same event, and never before on the same day.

I knew millenium is important, unprecedented events will take place and at last it has taken place. On the new years eve the two countries have celebrated the out come of the same event. Indians celebrated the return of the hostages, Pakistan has celebrated the safe return of the mujahideen who enjoy widespread support. At last the two countries have celebrated, that is important, they are closer now more than ever before. Let us celebrate the differences.

There are several areas this complimentary nature of India and Pakistan can be put to good use, in an orgy of celebrations and thus an understanding and peace. Some of these can be executed quite easily. Now that Asghar is back, his passport can be given to Nawaz Sheriff and sent to India. Pakistan gets rid of the much hated NS, India will be happy in recapturing the terrorist.

A week later, there can be a hijacking, and to spite NS further, his release will not be demanded by the hijackers. The opportunities are endless and I am busy working these good ideas to secure copyrights.

So my dear friends on the chowk, bear with me for some time, please give me some rest. The new millenium belongs to intellectual properties, I am on it from day one.

Regards and best wishes for the New Year

Jayaprakash

P.S. Temporal, you are a worthy opponent, if you respond to this, I will have to come back and tell you another parable and you wouldn`t want it. But I can promise you, --- I will be back

macgupta: reply 89 ``If the alleged RAW agents who carried out this hijacking are indeed headed to Pakistan, the logical thing would be for Pakistan to attempt to arrest them (or get their allies, the Taliban to arrest them ).`` I highly doubt the hijackers were RAW agents. This was a counter-propoganda campaign started by Pakistan to counter Jaswanth Singh`s theories regarding Pakistan being involved in this hijacking. The following is the latest from Pakistan,

``Hijackers will not be allowed in Pakistan

(Updated at 2135 PST)

ISLAMABAD: A Pakistani government spokesman said on Friday he doubted hijackers of the hijacked Indian airliner plane were en route to Pakistan and said border authorities should be able to stop them, said reports Friday.

``I have heard no such report that they are coming to Pakistan...with the normal vigilance on the borders I believe authorities there should be able to stop them if they do try to cross the border,`` Brigadier Rashid Qureshi said Friday night.

Qureshi further said Pakistan had not been approached by Afghanistan`s ruling Taliban about an eventual destination. The five hijackers and the three released militants were given 10 hours to leave Afghanistan under a deal with India that secured the release of 154 hostages on an Indian Airlines jet after a week-long ordeal.

``Pakistan considers hijacking as a crime and no one has approached us with regard to the hijackers,`` he said. ``If they are travelling in a vehicle there are only certain routes from which they can enter Pakistan and I am quite sure no one can cross the borders of Pakistan that easily,`` he said. It was not known where the hijackers went after leaving the aircraft in which they held the hostages and heading out of Kandahar airport in a car.`` (NEWS, Pakistan)

I am wondering myself about the deal made with the hijackers, and where they will end up.

The millenium ended with a message LOUD and CLEAR: Selfassessment and -evaluation in order to explore potentials to solve problems, however old they are. Kashmir is one such hot pot, consuming patience and nerves of anyone with a conscience in the past 8 days AS WELL as ANY new regarding violence in and around Kashmir, regardless WHO the assaulte ris. Violence, crime, terrrorism , rape and all other aspects of inhuman behaviour can not and certainly are not endorsed, justified or even symapthised by any ideology, neither by Islam, which strongly condemns such actions. Esp. Involvement and violence against women, children and old as well as sick people is not even allowed at war times in Islamic was ethics in contradiction to the all time favourite: Everything is fair in love and WAR!

I endorse, the author`s call for ACTION, for a resolve of this and such problems; enough time, lives and resources have been wasted. Kashmir and its people, as well as we, the others of the subcontinent have been exploited again and again in the name failing politics and other vested interests on either side.

STOP this EXPLOITATION! Why not join to explore potentials towards mutual development; certainly a much better/productive use of our energies, intelligence and resources ....

regards

Shankar: reply 92: ``If the people of sindh wanted to break away, would Pakistan allow it? Even if the majority of sindhis wanted out?`` I for one, would support it, if that is what the people of Sind wanted. No one has the right to force one`s own likes and dislikes on others. The right of self-determination is God-given, and cannot be taken away by humans.

``but they must live in peace and to do that by NOT allowing a state broken up on religious lines is NOT an assault on individual liberty.`` This is similar to the arguments that all colonisers and occupiers make. They try to justify their rule and occupation by imposing their own likes and dislikes on others. The reason that states break apart is not solely because of religion. It is because the people feel they will not have security and spiritual and economic freedom due their religion. The ultimate decision belongs to the people who occupy the land, and not to the people who sit at a distant and benefit from the land. Wasn`t that the basis of colonialism?

The world would be a more peaceful place if people applied their rules, regulations, ideals and philosophies on themselves only. You have no right to tell the Kashmiris what is right or wrong for them. That should be their own decision. Didn`t the British try to tell the Indians that being ruled by the British was actually good for India. That argument suited the British, but not the Indians. Similarly your argument suits Indians, but not the Kashmiris.

harish3: reply 90: ``I’d say partiton hasn’t worked too well for Pakistan or anyone else for that matter.`` This is your opinion and I respect it. My opinion is that I am better off not being a citizen of India, regardless of the problems. That does not mean I hate India, it just means I feel more secure as a Paksitani.

``I would not deny south asian muslims access to the places on the subcontinent they hold dear to them.`` My family migrated from Srinigar. My ancestors lost a lot of land and money. You don`t see me complaining. Any time new countries are formed, it is inevitable that this happens. Muslims lost way more land than Hindus. It should however be seen as a historical tragedy, and not be allowed to dictate the our future. As I said, Live and Let Live. And get out of history, and into the new century. If you are not happy with the creation of Pakistan, well that is your opinion. It does not necessarily mean it is correct. You make your own decisions for yourself, and let others make their own.

``50 years of proxy war now with a nuclear threat, constant terrorism, a general state of Pakistani poverty that is no better (if not any worse) then India, and general human tragedy`` These problems are not the result of partition, they are a result of not allowing people the freedom to decide their own future. All these problems would go away if people let others decide their own future, instead of deciding it for them. Kashmir is the primary example here. Why do you want to force people to live in your house who do not want to live with you? Why not be content as a friendly neighbor.

Harish3 #ninety-something

Well said Harish. Let us start the new millenium with a prayer: ``May those who seek peace and progress, be they Hindu or Muslim or whatever, grow in numbers. And may these numbers grow due to change in heart among those (like Jay) who let national, religious, racial, linguistic and other differences blind them to our common humanity. And yes, may we all see how absurd our preoccupation is with national boundries and nation-states and different ways of worshipping the Almighty. Amen. And peace to all who made it through the 20th century.``

HAPPY NEW YEAR AND HAPPY NEW MILENIUMM

LETS PRAY TO ALLAH THAT KASHMIR IS FREE FROM OCCUPATION, MILITARY REGIMES ARE OVER IN PAKISTAN FOR EVER IN THE 21ST CENTURY AND PAKISTAN`S FORIEGN AND NATIONAL POLICIES ARE FREE OF ANY FOREIGN INTERVENTION AND PAKISTAN BECOMES A DEBT FREE COUNTRY.

HAPPY HAPPY NEW YEAR AND HAPPY NEW MILENIUMM TO ALL MY FRIENDS, FAMILY, AND ALL THE PEACE LOVING PEOPLE ON EARTH.

CHEERS.

Jay,

Your utterences are offensive not just to Pakistanis, but to Indians as well. They are a part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Get a life, pal.

Fh reply # 72

I’m sure everyone is very relieved at the release of the Indian hostages. It is good that they were freed on the new year. I only hope that the trade off for the militants won’t give terrorists an incentive to do more hijackings.

I know that I’m not changing anyone’s minds, but I think certain lessons can be taken from history regarding religious conflicts. The essential lesson is that they can’t be resolved by drawing borders on a map – in south asia, its called partitioning. In bosnia and elsewhere, it has a totally different name.

I understand and appreciate the Pakistani view that Kashmir should be able to decide its own fate. However, the Pakistanis must realize india’s point. If the people of sindh wanted to break away, would Pakistan allow it? Even if the majority of sindhis wanted out?

The problem of Kashmir is one of partition. Partition has failed s. asia (in avoiding blood shed and preventing war). The only resolution to Kashmir – the one that gives all parties what they want (Kashmir) – is to undo partition. People don’t have to like each other or even be friends, but they must live in peace and to do that by NOT allowing a state broken up on religious lines is NOT an assault on individual liberty.

I’m sure this sentiment can be appreciated in light of the Palestinian problem in which Palestinians were cut off from their ancestral land when Jews came to the region and literally bought a large part of the real estate. In kashmir, its no different. Replace displaced Palestinians with displaced Hindus.

Wishing everyone a prosperous (and peaceful) Year 2000 and new millennium. Happy Ramazan to the muslim community.

The resolution of the hostage crisis should put an end to the theory that India stage managed this affair. Why would India release 3 prisoners to do that? Anybody who twists this logic to still insist it is an Indian plot should have their head examined.

For the record, I dont believe that the Pak govt had a hand in this either. Jaswant was terribly wrong to start this crap.

I abhor the extreme right wing of the BJP party. Fundamentalists of any religion are a scourge to their society. The extreme right wing of the US Republican party is a good analogy. I dont think any KKK members or Christian coalition stalwarts are registered Democrats. Yet I`ve voted for the Republican ticket in most presidential elections. The overwhelming majority of Hindus believe Indian Muslims are a fundamental asset to our country.

Ummair, BTW, according to The Forbes magazine,Azim Hasham Premji is the richest Indian in the world-with an estimated net worth of $2.8 billion. Premji was still in his 20s when he discontinued an engineering course at Stanford to assume charge of his small family owned business in Bombay. Today, the family run business (Wipro) has been transformed into India`s leading IT-cum-consumer products company.

Reply #: 73 Umairr

To all the pakisanis:

Saying that partition was wrong is not a matter of having an Indian trying to tell a Pakistani or anyone else how to live or what is good for them.

Partiton went against the idea of freedom b/c it denied my family the access to the land they had been on for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

How is that fair?

I would not deny south asian muslims access to the places on the subcontinent they hold dear to them. Why should my family be denied that same access b/c of some artificial border?

Pakistanis seem to understand this concept when it is framed in terms of Israel and Palestine.

You don’t have to consider yourself an Indian or even like other South Asians, but 2 million dead (from both sides of the border) in 1947, millions of forced migrations, 50 years of proxy war now with a nuclear threat, constant terrorism, a general state of Pakistani poverty that is no better (if not any worse) then India, and general human tragedy…yea, I’d say partiton hasn’t worked too well for Pakistan or anyone else for that matter.

You’re right. Live and Let Live....Later ``bhai``

If the alleged RAW agents who carried out this hijacking are indeed headed to Pakistan, the logical thing would be for Pakistan to attempt to arrest them (or get their allies, the Taliban to arrest them ).

I look forward to reading about the manhunt in Pakistan for these men in Pakistani newspapers.

-arun gupta

According to rediff.com, the Afghan Taliban rep. in the US has told rediff that the hijackers of the Indian Airlines plane are headed towards Pakistan, having been given 10 hours to get out of Afghanistan.

In that case, Pakistan will have two sets of hijackers to deal with next year -- the former PM Nawaz Sharif & co. being the second set.

It will be interesting to see how the cases will be handled.

-arun gupta

India and the international community should make every effort to apprehend the hijackers and the released ``militants``. There is no way that these people can find refuge anywhere without a ``friendly`` government helping them. The UN should be ready to impose sanctions on any country, and that includes Pakistan, which accepts them.The world cannot afford to encourage hijackers - they must know that they cannot get away with it. It seems like it should be a fairly easy to catch up with these rogues - where can they go? Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Sudan ... and that is about it.

Anyway, I am glad the ordeal is over for the hostages. May the new year millenium be better for all of us and may Leann Rymes grow up to be as pretty as Shania Twain.

A very happy new year and millennium to ALL of South Asia !

Thank god this hijacking thing is over without further bloodshed.

The US, UN, G8 and SAARC all need to make a resolution for Y2K to find a just solution for Kashmir.

Over a billion people are being cheated out of a brighter future due to this 50+ year old conflict.

Ras

Jay:

You talkin` to me?
(again)You talking to me?
(one more time)You talkin` to me?

Your utterances are a version of ``Did you beat your wife yesterday`` syndrome.

Get off your self assigned pedestal and mix with us mortals.

Many happy returns and may the rooster swallow you.

t

A QUESTION OF VALUES

Temporal and Godot,

There are certain societies that value knowledge, the knowledge derived from an empethetic understanding of the living conditions, an intimate knowledge of the people and the history that shaped them and in those societies a person with knowledge is respected.

The hijack crisis is over, the prisoners have been released. Now read my post under ` indian airline plan hijacked`` post no 25, `` Avenging Kargill``. Then also read my `joke`.

Send in your respects if you belong to the society I described above.

Regards and best wishes for the new year.

Jay.

mohajir 62,

Your post is clearly a part of the indian propagenda. I agree all are Pakistanis and Afghans, but the reality is that they are not terrorists, they have been detained illegally by india and this facade of hijack is created to let them free, with out any emberassment.

First of all Asghar came to india as a tourist on a portugese passport. He was arrested.

The next two in your list are goatherds rfrom Jhumritaliah in Assad Kashmir. They fell down a clif, the slope took them to the indian side, and landed into the dastardly trenches dug by the indians. Seeing the two vanish so suddeny, their two brother thought that some genie has took them, they came down to investigate and the hindu army pounced up on them and put them in prison.

The next ten in your list were pall bearers, who took the mutilated bodies to india and were arrested against all international norms and Geneva conventions.

Next in your list we are convinced is an actor, Amita Bachan posing as Akber in amer akber antony. The afghans are totally absurd, they are shown wearing jeans, that is impossible, I learnt from the chowk.

Another five in the list are the long lost brothern, who didnt want to return after 1971. They are ex soldiers, I am told that there was a trial of some soldiers for some bad deeds, so these five didnt want to come home.

What ever is remainig are RAW staff, trying to enter pakistan and trying to secure a good meal at the receptions planned.

Our Rights, Our Limits

As humans we are endowed with numerous faculties, one of them is our ability to decide between right and wrong or good and bad. Our decisions are our decision as our opinions are our opinions. We have every right to make our own decisions and form our own opinions as long as our opinions and decisions do not cause violence upon other people.

Are we sure that the opinions we express on the Chowk, or in any other arena, do not violate the rights of other people to live freely and happily in this world that we have no choice than to share with each other?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Truth 68: ``Is this country called Pakistan for real?`` This is a campaign started by Pakistan to counter the false propoganda being carried out by the India media and govt. The best way to couter false allegations is not to give excuses, but to provide false accusations of your own. Just like so many Indians have bought into the false Indian accusations trying to involve Pakistan into this at all costs. A lot of Pakistanis have bought into the false Pakistani allegations. Jaswanth Singh should have been more careful when he tried to falsely accuse Pakistan. One false accusations deserves another. As long as the Indian govt. is falsely accusing Pakistan, I support Pakistan counter-allegations. Once India stops, Pakistan should stop as well.

Truth, perhaps you should first criticize the Indian govt. for politicising this whole affair unnecessarily, in the first place.

``Jaswant Singh also said that Nepal was verifying reports that the hijackers had boarded the plane after arriving at Kathmandu on a Pakistan International Airlines flight. ``On account of certain systems at the international terminal in Kathmandu airport...it seems these five arrived on a PIA flight and simply went from arrival to departure to take five seats booked earlier under one name on the Indian airlines flight,`` Singh said.`` (Nation, Pakistan)

Pakistan had to supply a list of passengers on the PIA flight to show that the hijackers were not on the PIA flight. The Nepalese govt. also issued a statement, that their was no way the hijackers could have gotten off the PIA flight, and entered into the Indian Airlines flight without going through security.

``A dozen voices pronounced and pontificated, and not the least of these was Jaswant Singh whose energy, if nothing else, was notable. He was everywhere, saying everything, and, not surprisingly, there were contradictions. His embrace of the Taliban on Monday was an interesting change to his former position, and Reuters reported that he gave a briefing that day to ``senior editors of domestic media organisations,`` after which one of them, the United News of India, promptly reported that ``highly placed government sources`` stated that ``the entire operation was fully facilitated by Pakistan.`` The man wasn`t even trying to disguise his tracks, and it was a self-demeaning attempt to deflect enormous criticism from the incompetent manner in which Mr Singh and the government were handling the whole affair.`` (Brian Cloughley)

Ummair,

Re post#72

I agree Pakistanis arent & shouldnt be regretting partition. You dont want our problems just as much as we dont want yours.

However, I must disagree with some of your statements. Alas I feel you are buying into the Pakistani media line (just like we are buying into ours) when you say Pakistanis have a much much higher standard of living than the average Indian muslim. If that were indeed the case ,then Indian muslims would be making a beeline into Pakistan--just like Mexicans are into the US.Of course, Pakistan welcomes their Muslim bretheren with open arms, dont they?

If Indian muslims are so economically,politically or religiously oppressed, the ``land of the pure`` will look like heaven to them. There are no throngs of muslims clamouring outside the Pakistani Counsulate applying for visas.

Lets face it, the condition of all the countries in the Subcontinent is ,more or less, equally wretched. Sure, India`s economy is nothing to brag about, but it shows much greater promise.Why do so many Pakistanis feel that they have such a huge advantage in their standard of living as compared to ours? You can put whatever ``spin`` on economic statistics--India`s povetry looks horrendous because we have 8 times as many people. In terms of indigenous technological development, educational opportunities etc we are better off. I`m sure you are better off in other areas. But that is neither here or there.

Pakistanis want to be left alone. Thats fine by us--so could you tell your govt (as well) to stop interfering in our affairs. This self appointed role of being the knight in shining armor for the Kashmiris is wearing a little thin. The rest of the world just isnt buying your propaganda. In fact, when it came to Kargill, even your good friend China told you to cool it!

Peace

Re: the happy one Reply #: 67

``That`s an amazing volume of contraband to take past security... And then there are the unconfirmed reports of bullet proof vests, laptops, satellite phones, bullet resistant pants (!) and what not. ``

Apart from Zeemax`s food cart theory, I have another. At Kathmandu, they carried in whatever little they could (knives, pistol,etc). Once they landed in Kandahar (their own backyard), they were supplied with the other stuff by the Taliban, just in case. They are relaxed in Kandahar - home sweet home. There`s nothing anybody can do to them now. And this laxity has transferred over to the passengers.

Since they are obviously receiving orders from pakistan (everyone knows this, and pakistan knows that everyone knows this) killing the passengers is out of the question. Apart from the sheer stink that this would raise, retaliation in the form of shooting down a PIA flight is easy.



Pakistan was given a lesson in kargil that two can play a game. For 2 Migs, a Helicopter and 5 lives, the price they paid was a $100 million plane and 16 lives. It seems they have short memories. (A certain thick-skinned pakistani is ever fond of bringing up the issue of shooting down an unarmed plane, etc. etc.etc).

The irony is that in spite of all the patriotic arguments offered by the pakistanis, they have no say in ANY matter in their country. Their military govt. is answerable to no one. Apart from the relative anonymity of the web, none of the pakistani spokesmen at Chowk would dare question their govt`s actions inside Pakistan.

regards,

vineet 69: ``Many Indians fear that this has become possible largely because the genial Mr. Vajpayee still subscribes to the liberal secular values and notions of a benign and enlightened state bequeathed by India`s first prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru.`` Seems like the guy who wrote the article hasn`t read the BJP party manifesto. It is available at www.bjp.org. It is the furthust thing from being liberal or secular. Here is some minor snippets from the website.

``The BJP is convinced that Hindutva has immense potentiality to re-energize this nation and strengthen and discipline it to undertake the arduous task of nation-building. This can and does trigger a higher level of patriotism that can transform the country to greater levels of efficiency and performance. It is with such integrative ideas in mind, the BJP joined the Ram Janmabhoomi movement for the construction of Shri Ram Mandir at Ayodhya. This greatest mass movement in post-Independence history reoriented the disoriented polity in India and strengthened the foundation of cultural nationalism.

The BJP is committed to facilitate the construction of a magnificent Shri Ram Mandir at Ram Janmasthan in Ayodhya where a makeshift temple already exists. Shri Ram lies at the core of Indian consciousness. The BJP will explore all consensual, legal and constitutional means to facilitate the construction of Shri Ram Mandir at Ayodhya.``

``The future of Bharat is set. Hindutva is here to stay. It is up to the Muslims whether they will be included in the new nationalistic spirit of Bharat. It is up to the government and the Muslim leadership whether they wish to increase Hindu furor or work with the Hindu leadership to show that Muslims and the government will consider Hindu sentiments. The era of one-way compromise of Hindus is over, for from now on, secularism must mean that all parties must compromise.``

Please do not try to misinform anyone about the BJP. Any party that specifically mentions in their manifesto the destruction of a mosque, based on 400 year old history is not liberal or secular. Any govt. that is ordering the killings of thousands of Muslims in Kashmir is not quite liberal or secular to me. It is as fundamentalist as they come. How is Vajpayee going to get anymore fundamentist than this.

I CANNOT BELIEVE

Hamidm,

This is what people have been talking about, Y2K and end of the world, the new millineumm, unbelievable events, pigs flying and indo pak understanding.

Best wishes, happiness, long productive life and every thing worth while in the world for you. I completely agree with you.

Regards

Jay.

THANK YOU UMAIRR

I know what you mean, thank you anyway.

I WOULD REQUEST EVERYONE IN THE DISCUSSION TO STOP POINTING FINGERS TO EACHOTHERS AND PRAY FOR THE PLANE PASSENGERS AND CREW AND ALSO VICTIMS ON THE GROUND. ALL THE PAKISTANIS AND INDIANS COME TO YOUR SENSES AND TRY TO REALISE THE GROUND REALTIES WHICH ARE THE ROOT CAUSE OF ALL THIS.

TO ALL OUR CRITICS WHO DO NO LET A MINUTE GO BY CRITICISING ISLAM IN GENERAL AND PAKISTAN IN PARTICULAR SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT ISLAM IS A RELIGION OF KINDNESS AND FORGIVENESS AND SO ARE PAKISTANIS VERY FRIENDLY, HOSPITABLE AND PEACE LOVING PEOPLE. AN ACT OF AN INDIVIDUAL/S CAN NOT BE BLAMED ON A NATION. FOR INSTANCE THE PEOPLE WHO KILLED AUSTRAILIAN PRIEST AND HIS FAMILY WAS ACT OF CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS NOT OF A WHOLE NATION.

PEOPLE WHO DEMOLISHED BABRI MOSQUE WERE ALSO FEW EXTREMISTS AND FUNDAMEMTALIST HINDUS THAT DOES NOT MEAN THE WHOLE HINDU NATION IS FULL OF HATRED AND VOILENCE.

NOW AS FAR AS WHAT ISI IS DOING? THAT QUESTION CAN BE ANSWERED WHAT RAW, CIA, MOSSAD OR FOR THAT MATTER ANYOTHER MILITARY INTELLIGENCE IS DOING. THEY ARE ALL DOING THEIR JOBS WITH THE BEST WAY SUITED TO THEM. IN SOME CASE THEY ARE GIVING BEFITTING REPLY TO EACH OTHER`S ACTIONS.

AS FOR AS DIVISION OF UNITED INDIA WAS WRONG, IT IS ABSOLUTE INCORRECT. WE PAKISTANIS HAVE UNDERSTOOD THE SEPARATION OF EAST PAKISTAN BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THEY WANTED FOR THEMSELVES. TODAY ALMOST EVERY PAKISTANI RECOGNISES BANGLADESH AS A SEPARATE ENTITY OR NATION, ANOTHER COUNTRY. SO WE HAVE NO COMPLAINTS EACH OTHER. ON THE CONTRARY INDIA AS GOVERNMENT AND INDIAN PEOPLE HAVE NEVER GIVEN PAKISTAN RECOGNITION THAT IS WHY THERE IS SO MUCH HATRED IN THE SUBCONTINENT. INDIA AND INDIAN SHOULD LEARN FROM THE NEW WORLD ORDER, AND LIBERATE KASHMIR, KHALISTAN, NIXLES, AND ALL OTHERS WHO DO NO LIKE OF WISH TO LIVE UNDER INDIAN COLONIALISM.

IF INDIA ADHERE TO NON-COLONIALISM,NON ANNEXATION AND NON IMPERIALISM, THERE WOULD BE AN ETERNAL PEACE IN SUB CONTINENT.

LONG LIVE PAKISTAN, PAKISTAN PAINDABAD. LOVE PAKISTAN OR LEAVE PAKISTAN.

OK, lets take this step by step...

Question: Are the hijackers acing totally independently or are they just `operatives` of an `agency` that planned and was/is/will be providing moral, logistic & financial support?

Possible Answer A: The hijackers are members of a J&K/ P.A.K (Pakistan Administered Kashmir) based organization that unilaterally took this action to free Maulana Azar & friends. Just based on the fact that last four attempts to free the Maulana have come from a group attached to the Harkat-Ul-Ansar/ Mujahedeen, they would have to be the prime suspects.

Possible Answer B: The hijackers may or may not be members of H.U.M but they are fully controlled by an intelligence agency. And the nominees are... CIA, Mossad, ISI, RAS. And the winner is? Can we safely narrow this down to ISI & RAS by popular demand?

I would personally lean towards Answer B.

Here is the amount of stuff these people smuggled in. Handguns, knifes, hand grenades (eye witness reports indicate that the famous five are not quite sharing one of each, they all have their own fire power). That`s an amazing volume of contraband to take past security. And then there are the unconfirmed reports of bullet proof vests, laptops, satellite phones, bullet resistant pants (!) and what not. How do you get past security with all this? Can you bribe your way into an aircraft with the nature of booty being so frightening? Seems highly unlikely. These folks have been helped out by somebody really high up on the totem pole. Does anybody on chowk have any possible answers? As ridiculous as Zeemax`s food cart theory sounds, it is the only theory so far that explains this.

Before we inspect/ accept the `agency` paradigm, let me just say one thing to all those people who ask ``Why would a `government` plan or execute such an audaciously risky maneuver?`` I am sure you guys are aware of the CIA sending poisoned cigars to Castro and other such hilarious escapades (I think they sell the CIA Bloopers video for 14.95 at Kmart). If somebody alleges that RAS had something to do with this operation, they are not exactly insinuating that the Lok Sabha passed this operation with a voice vote. Intelligence agencies around the world almost feel remiss if they take their respective governments into full confidence.

So which agency is it? I think if you argue that these are Kashmiri freedom fighters and members in good standing of the august institution of Harkat-Ul-Mujahedeen, then you automatically concede that its an ISI operation. ISI provides training, manpower, logistics, infrastructure, funding & command structure to H.U.M. So if its an H.U.M operation, then its an ISI operation. I think ISI has far more to gain and lot less to loose than RAS. In fact the way it has gone so far, it seems extremely unlikely that RAS had anything to do with this whatsoever. If anybody can give me a good reason as to why the RAS would subject the Indian people & government to such an ordeal, I would be really grateful.

In summation I would like to say that I wouldn`t put a `contrived hijacking` or any other sinister plot past the RAS. They are insidious scumbags like any intelligence agency worth its salt should be. But the way this is shaking down, I think its pretty obvious that RAS had nothing to do with this (unless of course they`ve been completely bought over by ISI and their goal now is the destruction of India!). It would be interesting to find out the extent of the role ISI played in this but to concede that this is a Mujahedeen operation and then to release ISI of all culpability is a trifle oxymoronic.

Regards

There is no way to jusify the hijacking, regardless of what the Indian army is doing in Kashmir. Similarly, there is not way to justify what the Indian army is doing in Kashmir, regardless of how many hijackings take place.

The killing of all innocent civilians should be condemned equally, regardless of who does it. I condemn the actions of the hijackers as well as the actions of the Indian army and govt. in Kashmir equally. I hope both do not succeed in their repective endeveours, because both are holding the lives of innocent people in their hands.

Interesting! Did hijackers threatened to carry out any action if the ill passenger was not to return or it is just good faith on Indian Government`s part towards hijackers? Why did Talibans return the passenger to the plane?

Ill Hostage Returns to Hijacked Jet

By AMIR ZIA Associated Press Writer

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan (AP) -- A cancer-stricken hostage was temporarily taken off a hijacked Indian Airlines plane today for treatment as Indian negotiators reportedly haggled with the captors over the release of Kashmiri militants.

The ailing passenger, an Indian national named Simon Berara, who the Taliban said suffers from stomach cancer, was allowed to leave the aircraft for 90 minutes for treatment at a Taliban military hospital. He was seen returning to the airport in an ambulance and slowly climbing the stairs to disappear inside the aircraft, which was parked at the airport in the southern Afghan city of Kandahar.

harish3 Reply 64: ``Partitioning didn’t work well for Pakistan`` How have you come to this conclusion? I wish Indians would stop making pre-meditated conclusions about Pakistan. You shouldn`t buy into the Indian media line on everything. I don`t mean any disrespect to India, but I think if you ask Pakistanis, an overwhelming amount would agree that they are happier not being a part of India. They have many complains about Pakistan, but not being with India is not one of them. Even now when Pakistan is at its lowest economic ebb, the average Pakistani still has a higher living standard than the average Hindu India, and a much much higher living standard than the Muslim Indian. Perhaps Indians should let the Pakistanis decide what is good for them, and the Kashmiris decide what is good for Kashmir. Please stop trying to make decisions for others, they have not requested you to do so. Your energies will be better spent trying to solve your own problems.

Regarding migration, the number of Muslims who migrated out of India is far far far higher than the number of minorities that migrated out of Pakistan. Even now, many more Muslims are being killed in India, then Hindus being killed in Pakistan. Kashmir alone has had tens of thousands of deaths. India is being run by a fundamentalist religous govt., even though it claims to be a secular state.

Pakistanis and Kashmiris do not want to decide the future of India, why is that there are so many Indian commentators on this site who have made it a point to make statements about whether Pakistan and Kashmir should be a part of India. Why do you want people to live in your house who do not want to? How about just being friendly neighbors. Live and Let Live....

i read S. P. Udayakumar article and just want to say that what he writes in his article `` Needless to say that the people of Kashmir themselves should not be objectified in such discussions as if they were herd of cattle who India or Pakistan owned. After all, they have the right to decide their own political destiny.`` is what is Pakistan`s stand on the issue of Kashmir.

Washington Post Editorial

Lessons From the Hijacking

Thursday, December 30, 1999; Page A30

HIJACKINGS HAVE their own peculiar horror. A group of unsuspecting innocents is selected from among millions of air travelers, with the random carelessness of an earthquake or a hurricane; then, with contrasting deliberateness, it is threatened with the kind of calculated brutality that only rational beings can concoct. While the victims are held under a death sentence, the rest of the world is left confused and mostly impotent: hoping for the captives` safety, yet knowing that concessions to the hijackers may only ensure that more hijackings take place.

At the time of writing, on the sixth day of the Indian Airlines hijacking, there was no guessing its outcome. Of the nearly 200 passengers and crew who boarded the short flight from Katmandu to New Delhi, at least 155 remained entrapped; 27 had been released; one had been murdered. After stops in India, Pakistan and the United Arab Emirates, the plane rested uneasily in Kandahar, Afghanistan. The ordeal could end instantly, either peacefully or amid horrendous bloodshed. Or it could just continue: In 1968 Palestinian terrorists held an Israeli airliner hostage for 40 days.

Though the last chapter of this hijacking is uncertain, its main lesson is already evident. Islamic terrorism, which was once headquartered in a few states such as Libya and Lebanon, has diversified. It has a new western outpost in Algeria, two of whose nationals were recently seized trying to enter the United States under suspicious circumstances. And it has an eastern concentration in the Himalayan territories of Afghanistan, Pakistan and northern India.

The group that hijacked the Indian aircraft seeks the independence of Muslim-majority Kashmir from predominantly Hindu India; many of its leaders come from Pakistan; many of its fighters have been trained in Afghanistan. All these places share the lack of legitimate government that earlier made Lebanon a terrorist haven. Kashmir has been in rebellion against the authority of the Indian central government for a decade; Pakistan is riddled with corruption that recently helped provoke an army takeover; Afghanistan is under the partial control of fundamentalist guerrillas. Add in a plentiful supply of weapons, courtesy of endless wars and interventions in Afghanistan, plus a thriving drug trade, and it is not surprising that this area has become a terrorist`s paradise.

That terrorism combines alarmingly with the region`s nuclear capability. The Indians blame Pakistan`s government for sheltering and possibly inciting the group that did the hijacking; the Pakistanis retort, brazenly, that India might favor the hijacking as a means to damage Pakistan`s international reputation. Earlier this year, these newly self-declared nuclear powers marched to the brink of warfare, then retreated. The recriminations surrounding the hijacking could yet rekindle their advance.

Officially, no government in the region condones the hijacking. Pakistan, which supports the Kashmir separatists, has condemned it. Afghanistan`s militia government, which openly hosts the world`s most wanted terrorist, Osama bin Laden, declares that it will not tolerate the murder of captive passengers on its soil. These anti-hijacking homilies represent the only shard of opportunity in this episode. The rest of the world should now demand that these governments make good on their rhetoric by clamping down on terrorist groups rather than sheltering them. Deporting Mr. bin Laden would be a good start.

International Herald Tribune

Opinion

Whatever the outcome of the hijacking of the Indian Airlines jet and the fate of its 161 passengers and crew, India`s governing Bharatiya Janata Party is likely to come under increasing pressure to beef up military capability and adopt tough measures on a range of issues connected with security and foreign policy.

The Christmas Eve hijacking of the Airbus A300 on a routine flight from Katmandu to New Delhi shows, in the words of an official Indian spokesman, that the government ``cannot be seen as soft towards terrorists.`` Nor can Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee afford to preside over a soft state in which saboteurs, agents provocateurs and terrorists are free to work their mischief.

Many Indians fear that this has become possible largely because the genial Mr. Vajpayee still subscribes to the liberal secular values and notions of a benign and enlightened state bequeathed by India`s first prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru. Their growing feeling is that only a strong government acting in concert with like-minded countries can save India now that the center of Islamic fundamentalist activity has shifted from the Middle East to the Pakistan-Afghanistan region.

The renegade Saudi Arabian tycoon Osama bin Laden, whom the United States accuses of masterminding terrorist attacks against American targets in various parts of the world, is based in this region.

Reflecting this intense public concern, India might well seek an explanation from the United States. Washington is accused of turning a blind eye to Pakistani support for terrorist groups in spite of its opposition to global terrorism.

Many Indians would also like Nepal to be forced to close its borders to India`s enemies. Several recent bomb outrages in India were masterminded in the Himalayan kingdom.

Other Indians suggest technical and operational cooperation with Israel, which has shown that it can stand up to fundamentalist militancy.

In South Asian diplomacy, the millennium`s first casualty will be whatever survives of the confidence-building process that Mr. Vajpayee and Pakistan`s ousted prime minister, Nawaz Sharif, started.

That process was dealt a severe blow when General Pervez Musharraf overthrew Mr. Sharif in October. Pakistan and India have been locked in a struggle to control Kashmir for the last 50 years, and the general is said by Indian officials to have close links with militant Kashmiri separatists, such as the five men who hijacked the Indian Airlines plane.

The Indian government has been caught napping twice in less than six months. In the case of the recent conflict with Pakistan over Kashmir, it took several months before India`s military intelligence discovered the incursion of soldiers in Kargil, on the Indian side of the Line of Control that divides Kashmir. According to New Delhi, the infiltra