Unnoticed Invisibility

gymnosophist:

I`m wondering whether I should spell out my position on the issue(s) discussed more clearly, or continue taking this perverse pleasure in seeing `outrage` stemming from a complete misunderstanding.

What the heck, I`ll just spell it out:

If battle lines were to be drawn on the issue, you and I would be on the same side. Where`d you get the idea I was defending the literalists? Don`t you get it? I`ve been saying, albiet in somewhat guarded ways, essentially what you are: If you`re looking for change from within-- you`re on a dead-end road. So why not just abandon the need for scriptural authority on any change!

But whereas you seem to hold that real change is compatible with religious injunction, I don`t harbour such non-conflictist faith. The liberals, whoever they are, must tackle the issue on their own terms, not by seeking scriptural affirmation.

friends now??

re. sac (#100)

[Statements about who is a Muslim and ``everything else being commentary`` cracks me up. It escapes me when otherwise reasonable folks go into an intellectual frenzy when something does not fit their worldview.]

What cracks // *me// * up is wiser-than-thou folks not able to see that they`re guilty of exactly the faults they ridicule other for. For instance, not recognizing that their own opinion is just another world view, even if it is closer to objective truth.

[ A religion is a collection of edicts, traditions and stories. Some of them will be relevant to the norms of the day and others will become obsolete or ludicrious as time goes on.]

Yes, in *your * view, which for all it`s veracity, is not shared by all and sundry. Which is why we DISCUSS how and if change can be brought about.

[Islam and its practitioners haven`t done a good job of keeping the religion pertinent to the demands of the ``modern`` society. They keep looking for answers in the past, a past which was glorious but has lost ...]

The way I see it, it`s not so much a looking to the glorious past that keeps them from progress. It is the belief that I could argue is central to Islam itself... that their Law (particuluarly that derived from scripture) IS ETERNAL. Many otherwise intelligent people lack the consciousness that they are `looking back` when seeking scriptural guidance. Because the Qu`ran is deemed to have TIMELESS answers to the problems of life.

--just trying to clarify where I think the REAL problems lie-- perception/belief/dogma. Not failure to re-interpret etc., which would be an issue to content with only after the primary one is overcome.

Uzma:

congrats on joining the 100+ club

Ref Uzma #: 79

You say {the reason I am staying out of these discussions and heated debates about religion is because its the wise thing for me to do. religion for me is a very personal issue... and i dont feel the need to blow off steam on chowk about it... and i dont think everyone else has to follow my version of spirituality...and so i keep it to myself. seemed pretty simple to me :) }

Is this a debate about religion or a debate about women`s rights? Should anyone even attempt to debate rights for women? Since religion is a personal matter, why don`t men let women do what they want and lower their gazes at women who are not in burquas, as the Quran demands men should do if they meet women?

Let me give you an example. In the 1930s, as the devadasi system (of consecrating a female to the local temple who would be brought up as a dancer) was dying out, the art of Bharath Natyam dancing was in danger of being lost. A little South Indian Brahmin girl of 7 insisted on learning Bharath Natyam and created such a sensation in the world of dance that other higher-caste girls took up Bharath Natyam. Today, it is a flourishing art form, no longer associated with devadasis who doubled as prostitutes. If little Kamala had not insisted that she would learn Bharath Natyam, the course of events might be totally different. She broke the barriers and escaped from the confines of rigid traditionalism that demanded that Brahmin girls be married off before puberty and live a sheltered life. One girl practically single-handedly overthrew society`s rule. That is the power of determined women.

Let PM and others worry about how to reconcile the role of women with Islam. The time for reconciliation is long past. It is time for women to do as they please.

Ref PM #: 81

You say{Rather than smirk condescendingly at the ‘poor misguided souls’ of the world, (something that would no doubt boost our own deflated egos)...}

I did / *not */ smirk. I am full of outrage that at this point in the development of society we have people trying to look for precedences to see if women should be allowed personal freedoms.

You say {...we’re considering the how’s and why’s of an issue that, whether we like it or not, // *is// * yoked round our necks at the end of this millenium.}

So we are going to let the loonies and the crazies define the parameters of acceptable behavior? Just because they quote the Quran or some hadith? Granted that you can find some extreme orthodox Jewish groups who relegate women to thankless tasks, can you find any other example in civilized society where enslavement of 50% of the population is a matter of polite debate? Who are we, the men, to tell women what they can and cannot do? Are we willing to walk in their shoes even for a day?

Was it Gloria Steinem who said, ``Women are the niggers of the world``? Well, whoever it was, she got it right.

You ask (And what’s so significant about the 21st century anyway???}

Not much. Except that in another 10 years illiteracy is expected to be completely wiped out in Bangladesh and India. Women in those countries have made substantial progress in eliminating biases against them. And you guys are wondering if the calendar should not be rolled back to the 8th century! That being the case, how does it matter if it is the 21st or the 31st century?

PM: Good point. I stand corrected. :)

I`m satisfied as long as someone is getting something out of it. and so we shall continue to discuss/rant/rave about religion...

and as for hamidm...i completely second the vote for the career change... *grin * you should seriously consider it... all in all, quite amusing. :)

adaab arz-hai.

Words emit energy and touch people. Move them. They stir and vibrate- within their limited capacity and frequency.

hamidm,

Some honest-to-goodness advice: Stop whatever it is you do for a living and start your own stand-up rountine. :-)

(side-aching) regards,

Pat

Uzma (#92)

Re. the first para: There are arguments and there are arguments. To suggest that debating is a pointless exercise that only runs in circles (“yadda yadda yadda”) is to betray a lack of faith in the reasonableness of people – in the propensity of reasoned argument to affect one at some very deep level, even if may not be readily apparent-- and despite one’s best efforts at resisting it. Of course, I am speaking only from my own experiences of being challenged. And while at it, express thanks to Umair for some interesting insights.

Re. the 3rd. para: I don’t see how you can fail to see that the issue of women’s freedoms and religion are inextricably linked, especially, one would think, in the case of Islam. (Please note: I am not making blanket statements here on Islam’s view of women). And I disagree that religion was used as a scapegoat here. I think the commentary on your piece had run its course (--or did my friend Solitude scare everyone off?), and the discussion on Islam (or, precisely, the tenability of Reconstruction within it) took on a life of its own.

“how and why do men (notice most responses are male) start going on and on about religion...”

Interesting query (even if rhetorical). Maybe it’s because, as the ‘guardians’, there’s a greater sense of responsibility. :-) Or maybe Solitude is on to something when he suggests that misogyny screws men over too—or even more, since we don’t have the victim complex and all the perverse comforts that come with it. Or maybe it’s because most chowkwalis were involved more in culinary interests these past few days.

Or maybe religion is more a male thingy. Or, maybe it was just a coincidence-- not exactly a statistical improbability.

Regards,

Uzma says :

``instead of discussing the fact that so many of us are still `close-minded` about certain aspects of women`s choices... we start looking for the scape-goat again... and the easiest thing to pick on is religion. and in my view, that`s a cop-out. if the issue was women... and different points of view...how and why do men (notice most responses are male) start going on and on about religion... ``

I says :

We, the Muslim men of the world, the pround standard bearers of the Prophet`s traditions and Allah`s representatives on Earth, do not have to be `open-minded` about anything other than the style of our underwear... boxers vs. briefs. It says so in the Koran and I am armed with a searchable version on CD and can spit out a dozen direct quotes from the Almighty Himself which establishes our superiority over women, children and other forms of homo-sapiens who should be seen occassionally and never heard. Astagfirullah, woman ! How dare you accuse us of being close-minded ? Some, like that wretched wench I married, even accuse us of not having a mind to close or open? That probably explains, why I spent Eid as PM was so quick to spot - beat her over the head and then threw the book at her - 4:34 and all !

Gotta run now and do the dishes - they are all piled up in the sink from that bash that... that...Binte-Eve and Umme-Binat ( couldn`t even bear me any sons either) threw last night. After I do the dishes and make Aunt Jemima`s pancakes, I will wake up those three banshees from hell so that I can lord over them in my castle. Maybe, on my next trip to the masjid, in a few months from now, I will pick up some more hints on ``how to start and maintain a harem without any money down``.

Eid Mubarak.

PM (in ref to #82):

Don`t you ever get the feeling that the same people are brainstorming about the same arguements repeatedly? Everyone has their own perceptions...and everyone here is opinonated enough to think that they are ``right`` (myself included)... and the rest are either ``too modern``, ``too Westernized``, ``too conservative``, ``too close-minded``... yadda yadda yadda.

Live and let live, that`s my motto (my opinonated response).

There are constructive ways in which to discuss certain matters... and depending on what the ultimate goal is...it could work or not. we went from discussing a woman`s choice and voice...to religion... im amazed that my work could instigate such fatwah`s from so many different sides. instead of discussing the fact that so many of us are still `close-minded` about certain aspects of women`s choices... we start looking for the scape-goat again... and the easiest thing to pick on is religion. and in my view, that`s a cop-out. if the issue was women... and different points of view...how and why do men (notice most responses are male) start going on and on about religion...



i`ve already said more than i intended to.

I hope the brainstorming helps someone ...even one person ... only then will i be convinced that all these words were worth it.

Temporal: your digressions are always welcome here ... especially if you use Ms. Piggy in the scenario. ;-)

adaab arz-hai.

re.#90

Okay, so we know how / *hamidm/ * spends his Eid, uh!?

It says in the Koran :

[32.2] The revelation of the Book, there is no doubt in it, is from the Lord of the worlds.

and then Allah goes on to say :

[4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

Based on the above, I think a number of you guys are guilty of heresey and schismaticalness, and should therefore be burned at the stake - sorry, wrong religion - I meant have mud walls tumbled on you, after which your heads will be seperated from your sorry bodies and and displayed on billiard cues at the gates of Hard Rock Cafe! And it doesn`t end here ... your souls will rot in hell for eternity or the third millinium, whichever comes first.

I was planning to let this one pass me by, and instead just watch the sparks fly, but I just couldn`t resist sharing this joke I heard sometime ago.

An atheist dies and goes to heaven. Standing at the gates he mentions to the recording angel his surprise, not that God and heaven and all the rest of it exist, but that he is being allowed in. After all, he did not believe in God.

``That`s of no consequence,`` says the angel. ``You lived a virtuous life, did unto others as you would have had done to you, and that`s what`s important. All manner of people- Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, atheists, agnostics- are in heaven for that reason. Religion or lack of it is not important.``

The man then looks behind the angel and notices a huge building, with no doors or windows.

``What`s that?`` he enquires.

``That`s the Jehovah`s Witnesses heaven,`` says the angel.

``Why doesn`t it have any doors or windows?``

``Because,`` replied the angel, ``they think they`re the only ones who get to heaven.``

Eid Mubarak to one and all.

Ref PM 72:

{I think, avoiding the fact that there are at least SOME principles, some beliefs, which HAVE to be accepted to call oneself a Muslim.}

I have always believed that Islamic belief can be summarized as:

There is no God but Allah and Muhammed is His Prophet.

Everything else is commentary.

If a man would live according to his conscience and by the Golden Rule -- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you -- he is assured of Heaven.

How can we forget that the Islamic prayer begins ``Bismillah ar-Rehman ar-Rahim...``(Allah the Merciful...) Surely, a merciful God would judge men by their actions toward their fellow men, not by their outward piety?

And no matter what the fire-and-brimstone preachers say, I have never bought into the concept of a vengeful Jehovah either.

Would the world of religions be different if women instead of men had been the prophets in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition? Would we have a God who loves us all in spite of our faults, who encourages us to do our best and leave the rest to Him?

Would we worship Him in the image of a man? Or, would female prophets have conceived of God as the purest bundle of joy known to humans... a child?

Eid Mubarak to all our Muslim friends. As this period of penance ends, may the Faithful be blessed by Allah the Merciful.

temporal,

re. the `review`, could you kindly pass the message on to its er... subject, that it cannot be completed (with justice done unto it) unless a certain document promised to me (relating to it) makes it to my virtual mailbox. My two attempts to reach the subject elicited no reply.

And Damn! I didn`t get down to reading the poem. could you e it to me instead? (postmatser@yahoo.com)

btw, Umairr, why do I get the feeling that it isn`t appreciated that my role here is just that of devil`s advocate?

To all chowkies it applies to:

Eid Mubarak! Joy and peace to you.

er...Anyone come up with a way to email sheer qorma as yet???

best wishes,

Patrick