Zeemax January 8, 2000
#220 Posted by fuzair on November 30, 1999 12:00:00 am
Incidentally, it was FM Ayub Khan, not Gen. Zia, who said that democracy was not suited to the genius of the Pakistani people. Hence his phased transition to democracy, the Basic Democracies system. Needless to say, I believe he was correct.
Irfan Haider, the Dawn columnist, basically agrees with the Field Marshall although, as he admits, as a callow young socialist four decades ago, he was outraged at the Field Marshall`s words. Gen. Zia might have repeated these words, although I do not recall him ever saying so, but in his case they were definitely self-serving ones. FM Ayub was, I believe, sincere in his commitment to Pakistan`s growth and prosperity. His inability to control his sons (real and adopted) directly contributed to his downfall
Irfan Haider, the Dawn columnist, basically agrees with the Field Marshall although, as he admits, as a callow young socialist four decades ago, he was outraged at the Field Marshall`s words. Gen. Zia might have repeated these words, although I do not recall him ever saying so, but in his case they were definitely self-serving ones. FM Ayub was, I believe, sincere in his commitment to Pakistan`s growth and prosperity. His inability to control his sons (real and adopted) directly contributed to his downfall
#219 Posted by fuzair on November 30, 1999 12:00:00 am
Dear Prof. Bilal Ahmad:
You are of course correct when you point out the role of Urdu in South Asia. In a different series of posts on Chowk, I made the same point you did about Punjabis and Urdu. However, that still does not change the underlying facts under discussion.
The attitude of the Muhajirs (Urdu speakers, migrants from E. Punjab are not included in this category) to Pakistan was very straightforward. They saw it as theirs to do with as they please. Pakistan was a backwards, primitive wasteland that they, the educated and cultured elite of Lucknow, Kanpur, and Hyderabad Deccan were going to civilize. There was no rational decision made that Urdu was the best candidate to serve as a national language for the new country. The Muhajir`s view was simply that Urdu was the only civilized language available to choose from. I have heard several (usually much older) Muhajirs say that there was nothing in Karachi/Sind/Pakistan before they came and that they left their havelis and jagirs in UP/H. Deccan to come here to save us from the Hindus and look at our ingratitude. What utter tripe.
The point is that the Muhajirs stated categorically that they were not under any circumstances going to learn Sindhi and that Sindhis were (essentially) unwelcome in Karachi and Hyderabad. As far as the recent regionalism argument goes, the Karachi language riots were in the early 1970s and all that Bhutto wanted was Sindhi being taught in schools in Sindh up till the fifth grade. What effrontery! That a provincial language should be taught in that province!
Until quite recently the Punjabis have gone along with the Muhajir pretensions of representing a more advanced (read: degenerate) culture and acquiessed in the supremacy of Urdu. No more. But I fear that we have merely replaced one form of chauvinism with a (perhaps more brutal) one.
You are of course correct when you point out the role of Urdu in South Asia. In a different series of posts on Chowk, I made the same point you did about Punjabis and Urdu. However, that still does not change the underlying facts under discussion.
The attitude of the Muhajirs (Urdu speakers, migrants from E. Punjab are not included in this category) to Pakistan was very straightforward. They saw it as theirs to do with as they please. Pakistan was a backwards, primitive wasteland that they, the educated and cultured elite of Lucknow, Kanpur, and Hyderabad Deccan were going to civilize. There was no rational decision made that Urdu was the best candidate to serve as a national language for the new country. The Muhajir`s view was simply that Urdu was the only civilized language available to choose from. I have heard several (usually much older) Muhajirs say that there was nothing in Karachi/Sind/Pakistan before they came and that they left their havelis and jagirs in UP/H. Deccan to come here to save us from the Hindus and look at our ingratitude. What utter tripe.
The point is that the Muhajirs stated categorically that they were not under any circumstances going to learn Sindhi and that Sindhis were (essentially) unwelcome in Karachi and Hyderabad. As far as the recent regionalism argument goes, the Karachi language riots were in the early 1970s and all that Bhutto wanted was Sindhi being taught in schools in Sindh up till the fifth grade. What effrontery! That a provincial language should be taught in that province!
Until quite recently the Punjabis have gone along with the Muhajir pretensions of representing a more advanced (read: degenerate) culture and acquiessed in the supremacy of Urdu. No more. But I fear that we have merely replaced one form of chauvinism with a (perhaps more brutal) one.
#218 Posted by zeemax on November 30, 1999 12:00:00 am
Reply #: 17 FARANGI_KUSH
Dear FARANGI_KUSH,
Err .. I`m not sure who do you include in Farangis` but I suspect your wrath may be directed towards the white anglo-saxon races, though I can´t be sure as it could include all liberals regardless of race. I`m also not sure what may be the reason of your wrath but I again suspect it may have something to do with the anglo-saxon´s perceived promiscuity and/or God-less-ness, or the liberals perceived distancing from religion. As for the white anglo-saxons, you may know that there´s a huge Bible-Belt in USA where alcohol is just as haraam as in Islam, and women are equally non-promiscuous if not totally chaste.
By ``Forward``, I mean keeping pace with the normal development of human evolution in progress of thought as well as technology. That´s all I meant. It doesn´t mean automatically that any human or moral values will inevitably be sacrificed in that quest.
I`ll however be able to answer you better should you care to expand upon your statements - particularly who is going to be extinct, and why ?
Rgds
Dear FARANGI_KUSH,
Err .. I`m not sure who do you include in Farangis` but I suspect your wrath may be directed towards the white anglo-saxon races, though I can´t be sure as it could include all liberals regardless of race. I`m also not sure what may be the reason of your wrath but I again suspect it may have something to do with the anglo-saxon´s perceived promiscuity and/or God-less-ness, or the liberals perceived distancing from religion. As for the white anglo-saxons, you may know that there´s a huge Bible-Belt in USA where alcohol is just as haraam as in Islam, and women are equally non-promiscuous if not totally chaste.
By ``Forward``, I mean keeping pace with the normal development of human evolution in progress of thought as well as technology. That´s all I meant. It doesn´t mean automatically that any human or moral values will inevitably be sacrificed in that quest.
I`ll however be able to answer you better should you care to expand upon your statements - particularly who is going to be extinct, and why ?
Rgds
#217 Posted by zeemax on November 30, 1999 12:00:00 am
Reply #: 21 SameerJB
[The traits of individual cultures, the marks of different social patterns, the diversity of ideologies and religion; all are being translated into a single monolithic version of `Pakistani society` as if we are frozen in a historical time capsule.]
I couldn´t agree more ! To add to above, our freezing in a historical time capsule is stunting, indeed atrophying in medical terms, our growth in a constantly changing world. All these cultural entities were so vital and dynamic to begin with. It´s a tragedy of huge proportions.
It´s also so true what you have said about the results of 1946 poll beibg accepted despite voters` simplicity, ignorance and so forth, while the results of 1996 being rejected for the same reasons. I was a little bit dismayed, indeed disturbed by bahmad´s remark on He had no choice, in response to a section of a post by Gnostics. I quote the exchange here :[In describing General Musharraf, you wrote: `` I guess over a 100 million individuals in Pakistan . . . don`t even know who he is, except that he is a big general who will bring prosperity and Kashmir to Pakistan!`` Comment: Well said. This is the crux of our problem. It is very meaningful. We can never establish democracy with such an attitude (simplicity, ignorance, indifference, or whatever). Establishment of a democratic ethos/system requires active participation (in one form or another) of common people in the political process.]
I suspect Gnostic`s remark may have been taken in an erroneous context because I`m sure Gnostics does not subscribe to the Gen. Zia-ist contention of ``Democracy Does Not Suit The Genius Of Our People`` Neither did I think Belal did.
Would Belal please elaborate upon above ?
Rgds
[The traits of individual cultures, the marks of different social patterns, the diversity of ideologies and religion; all are being translated into a single monolithic version of `Pakistani society` as if we are frozen in a historical time capsule.]
I couldn´t agree more ! To add to above, our freezing in a historical time capsule is stunting, indeed atrophying in medical terms, our growth in a constantly changing world. All these cultural entities were so vital and dynamic to begin with. It´s a tragedy of huge proportions.
It´s also so true what you have said about the results of 1946 poll beibg accepted despite voters` simplicity, ignorance and so forth, while the results of 1996 being rejected for the same reasons. I was a little bit dismayed, indeed disturbed by bahmad´s remark on He had no choice, in response to a section of a post by Gnostics. I quote the exchange here :[In describing General Musharraf, you wrote: `` I guess over a 100 million individuals in Pakistan . . . don`t even know who he is, except that he is a big general who will bring prosperity and Kashmir to Pakistan!`` Comment: Well said. This is the crux of our problem. It is very meaningful. We can never establish democracy with such an attitude (simplicity, ignorance, indifference, or whatever). Establishment of a democratic ethos/system requires active participation (in one form or another) of common people in the political process.]
I suspect Gnostic`s remark may have been taken in an erroneous context because I`m sure Gnostics does not subscribe to the Gen. Zia-ist contention of ``Democracy Does Not Suit The Genius Of Our People`` Neither did I think Belal did.
Would Belal please elaborate upon above ?
Rgds
#216 Posted by fuzair on November 30, 1999 12:00:00 am
Interesting discussion. I`ll throw in my usual two cents worth. Pakistan was the desire of Muslims from the Muslim-minority provinces of united India, i.e., mainly UP, or where Muslims had a very precarious majority, Bengal.
NWFP was pro-Congress and the Punjab was pro-British, although I believe the Muslim League managed a (coalition?) government in Sind. So the concept of Pakistan was seriously flawed from the beginning since what we now call Pakistan was a foreign (Muhajir) creation.
However, that is ancient history by now. The key point is that, as my uncle--ex-Pakistan army--said, Pakistan is like the old Austro-Hungarian empire: an army without a country.
The aim of a multicultural, multi-ethnic, multi-whatever, Pakistan was killed by the Muhajirs back in 1948(?) when Mr. Jinnah`s speech in Dacca clearly put Bengali in the category of minor provincial languages and elevated Urdu to unheard of heights. He essentially equated Urdu with Islam--the language of Islam in India was Urdu, is what I believe he said. I have been told by many that the speech was written for Mr. Jinnah by Liaqat Ali Khan. I have no independent corroboration of this.
Pakistan`s only hope, from the perspective of national integration, was to never have elevated Urdu to national language status. We should have either kept English or chosen Arabic. Nigeria, for example, chose to keep English as its official language. In fact, I believe that they don`t even use the term ``national language.`` English did not keep Nigeria from ethnic disintegration and civil war but can you imagine how much worse the situation would have been if Hausa had been forced down the throats of the Ibos?
Alternatively, I believe it was Aga Khan III who suggested using Arabic as the national language. He argued that no one in Pakistan could oppose the use of Arabic and that it would confer no inherent advantage to any ethnic/linguistic group. His eminently sensible advice was also ignored.
So, you see, whether it was the Muhajirs demanding that Urdu be primus inter pares or the Punjabis equating their ethnicity with legitimacy (Punjabi=Pakistan; non-Punjabi=Hindu/Indian), multicultural anything is not likely to happen in Pakistan.
Perhaps if we break the Punjab up into three provinces we might have a chance but there is no solution to the Sind mess that both sides would ever be willing to agree upon.
NWFP was pro-Congress and the Punjab was pro-British, although I believe the Muslim League managed a (coalition?) government in Sind. So the concept of Pakistan was seriously flawed from the beginning since what we now call Pakistan was a foreign (Muhajir) creation.
However, that is ancient history by now. The key point is that, as my uncle--ex-Pakistan army--said, Pakistan is like the old Austro-Hungarian empire: an army without a country.
The aim of a multicultural, multi-ethnic, multi-whatever, Pakistan was killed by the Muhajirs back in 1948(?) when Mr. Jinnah`s speech in Dacca clearly put Bengali in the category of minor provincial languages and elevated Urdu to unheard of heights. He essentially equated Urdu with Islam--the language of Islam in India was Urdu, is what I believe he said. I have been told by many that the speech was written for Mr. Jinnah by Liaqat Ali Khan. I have no independent corroboration of this.
Pakistan`s only hope, from the perspective of national integration, was to never have elevated Urdu to national language status. We should have either kept English or chosen Arabic. Nigeria, for example, chose to keep English as its official language. In fact, I believe that they don`t even use the term ``national language.`` English did not keep Nigeria from ethnic disintegration and civil war but can you imagine how much worse the situation would have been if Hausa had been forced down the throats of the Ibos?
Alternatively, I believe it was Aga Khan III who suggested using Arabic as the national language. He argued that no one in Pakistan could oppose the use of Arabic and that it would confer no inherent advantage to any ethnic/linguistic group. His eminently sensible advice was also ignored.
So, you see, whether it was the Muhajirs demanding that Urdu be primus inter pares or the Punjabis equating their ethnicity with legitimacy (Punjabi=Pakistan; non-Punjabi=Hindu/Indian), multicultural anything is not likely to happen in Pakistan.
Perhaps if we break the Punjab up into three provinces we might have a chance but there is no solution to the Sind mess that both sides would ever be willing to agree upon.
#215 Posted by zeemax on November 30, 1999 12:00:00 am
Reply #: 10 wiseguy
To lose hope is a sin. I firmly believe the new millenium is the rollover into a new Age. Just as the major turning points in man´s evolution occured at regular intervals encompassing milleniums and sub-divided by eras encompassing centuries, we´re now into the Digital Age. During this Age, the Binary intelligence will equal or perhaps surpass the Carbon-based intelligence of the human brain.
So let anyone be who wants to quibble about whether an orphaned muslim grandson should inherit the grandfather´s estate or not, or whether interest is halal or haraam. We are going forward.
Rgds.
To lose hope is a sin. I firmly believe the new millenium is the rollover into a new Age. Just as the major turning points in man´s evolution occured at regular intervals encompassing milleniums and sub-divided by eras encompassing centuries, we´re now into the Digital Age. During this Age, the Binary intelligence will equal or perhaps surpass the Carbon-based intelligence of the human brain.
So let anyone be who wants to quibble about whether an orphaned muslim grandson should inherit the grandfather´s estate or not, or whether interest is halal or haraam. We are going forward.
Rgds.
#214 Posted by zeemax on November 30, 1999 12:00:00 am
Reply #: 8 bahmad
Dear Bilal,
You have raised vividly pertinent and basic issues which have somehow become taboo for open discussion, primarily, the question of identity.
The crisis of identity in my view is first and foremost. It´s the confusion and basic insecurity stemming from a lack of a clear and durable identity and sense of direction which has led the Pakistani leaderships to undermine, loot and plunder their own country. In the collective psyche´, there´s at best a hazy tomorrow so might as well make the best of today while it lasts..
The Islamic identity handed down to Pakistan by M A Jinnah, with the best of intentions and as required by prudence at the time i.e. uniting the muslims of India under a single banner, turned out to be weak and easily misused by the ruling elite after Jinnah´s premature departure from the scene. Jinnah being the far-sighted person he was, undoubtedly knew the risks down the road therefore his noble attempt in creating an ethic of Unity, Faith and Discipline (.. whatever happened to that ? No one even mentions it anymore..) rather than that of the Islamic Sharia`a, once his dream of Pakistan crystalized.
Jinnah himself was a cosmopolitan person. Married a Parsi, daughter is Parsi (and still lives somewhere in the US, both were promptly expunged from collective memory as if they had never existed.)I´m not sure if he offered his prayers. So the questions arise where did religion figure in Jinnah´s life and what motivated him to raise the banner of Islam ? Resting on my arguments it follows that the religious basis was a means to an end and not an end in itself. The true basis was economic.
What, then, is our identity ?
Is it the Islamic Ummah ? Certainly the Ummah is a hallucination which never existed in reality. The wars of succession and bitter divisions after demise of the holy prophet (PBUH) are enough proof as you pointed out. Recent proof is secession of East Pakistan. The working example of a State based on religion, indeed with some simiralities in it´s very creation, is the State of Israel which is clearly a religious Jewish state and no qualms about it. But then the Jewish Ummah is united and any Jew can immigrate freely to Israel, while to our Arab bretheren we are little more than a source of cheap labour or houbara hunting ground for their falconry elite. Neither are there any bonding similarities with non-Arabs of Iran or Turkey ! One is Shi`ite whose faith has been demanded strongly to be declared as Kafir and non-muslim in Pakistan, the other is too liberal a version of Islam where women wear skirts. What to talk of North Africa where a large population of Muslims is actually Ismailis or Qadianis, again considered non-muslims. We don´t descend from Samarkand or Bukhara but we do descend from ancestors who were sons of the soil of the Indian sub-continent for thousands of years. The conversion to Islam through Sufi Saints is a fairly recent event in History in comparison. So that puts paid to the Islamic identity.
Is then our identity Pakistani? But there´s no such thing as a Pakistani race, or generic ideology associated with the word `Pakistan`. Neither is there a common `Pakistani` language or culture. If you take the layers off this concept like an onion, in the end you´re left with nothing.
Are we South Asian identities of Punjabis, Pathans, Sindhis, Urdu speaking, Baluch and so forth gathered together for common need of security and economic well-being ? Yes! That makes some sense to me. Each of the respective ethnic iditentity, culture and history is just too rich to be dominated by any other.If it wasn´t so, One Unit of Ayub Khan´s early days would have survived. Neither would East Pakistan have seceded. Attempts to merge five ethnic identities into a melting pot of a sixth have consistently failed [.. collective identity who want to form one unified multicultural state and society ?] I remember when Bengali news were grudgingly allowed to be read on PTV but it was too late by then.
I, Bilal, therefore beg to disagree that recognition of clear ethnic identities within Pakistan means disintegration. Why should it ? I love the Pushto turn of the phrase and the Pathan individual and unique culture as I do Punjabi, or Sindhi for that matter. I don`t know where I would be without the Urdu poetry and literature, much of which was incidentally contributed by the Punjabis again being a proof of the total harmony existing between individual cultures and languages within Pakistan. Why not accept and respect the same instead of being ashamed or feeling guilty of `Provincialism` ?
The only identity is that with which one is born. That can never change or altered alongwith exegencies of time. If that had been acknowledged, a Sindhi would have known what ``Dul Dul Painda Tera Gora Gora Rung Nee`` meant, or a Punjabi would have felt the warmth of ``Laarh Sha Peykhawar Ta Kameez Tor Ma`ala Rowra``.
My vision therefore which you ask for is a vision of Pakistan as a closely-knit confederation of the `joint-family` of individual ethnic identities. The implementation is under the section `Provinces`.
Rgds.
Zeemax
Dear Bilal,
You have raised vividly pertinent and basic issues which have somehow become taboo for open discussion, primarily, the question of identity.
The crisis of identity in my view is first and foremost. It´s the confusion and basic insecurity stemming from a lack of a clear and durable identity and sense of direction which has led the Pakistani leaderships to undermine, loot and plunder their own country. In the collective psyche´, there´s at best a hazy tomorrow so might as well make the best of today while it lasts..
The Islamic identity handed down to Pakistan by M A Jinnah, with the best of intentions and as required by prudence at the time i.e. uniting the muslims of India under a single banner, turned out to be weak and easily misused by the ruling elite after Jinnah´s premature departure from the scene. Jinnah being the far-sighted person he was, undoubtedly knew the risks down the road therefore his noble attempt in creating an ethic of Unity, Faith and Discipline (.. whatever happened to that ? No one even mentions it anymore..) rather than that of the Islamic Sharia`a, once his dream of Pakistan crystalized.
Jinnah himself was a cosmopolitan person. Married a Parsi, daughter is Parsi (and still lives somewhere in the US, both were promptly expunged from collective memory as if they had never existed.)I´m not sure if he offered his prayers. So the questions arise where did religion figure in Jinnah´s life and what motivated him to raise the banner of Islam ? Resting on my arguments it follows that the religious basis was a means to an end and not an end in itself. The true basis was economic.
What, then, is our identity ?
Is it the Islamic Ummah ? Certainly the Ummah is a hallucination which never existed in reality. The wars of succession and bitter divisions after demise of the holy prophet (PBUH) are enough proof as you pointed out. Recent proof is secession of East Pakistan. The working example of a State based on religion, indeed with some simiralities in it´s very creation, is the State of Israel which is clearly a religious Jewish state and no qualms about it. But then the Jewish Ummah is united and any Jew can immigrate freely to Israel, while to our Arab bretheren we are little more than a source of cheap labour or houbara hunting ground for their falconry elite. Neither are there any bonding similarities with non-Arabs of Iran or Turkey ! One is Shi`ite whose faith has been demanded strongly to be declared as Kafir and non-muslim in Pakistan, the other is too liberal a version of Islam where women wear skirts. What to talk of North Africa where a large population of Muslims is actually Ismailis or Qadianis, again considered non-muslims. We don´t descend from Samarkand or Bukhara but we do descend from ancestors who were sons of the soil of the Indian sub-continent for thousands of years. The conversion to Islam through Sufi Saints is a fairly recent event in History in comparison. So that puts paid to the Islamic identity.
Is then our identity Pakistani? But there´s no such thing as a Pakistani race, or generic ideology associated with the word `Pakistan`. Neither is there a common `Pakistani` language or culture. If you take the layers off this concept like an onion, in the end you´re left with nothing.
Are we South Asian identities of Punjabis, Pathans, Sindhis, Urdu speaking, Baluch and so forth gathered together for common need of security and economic well-being ? Yes! That makes some sense to me. Each of the respective ethnic iditentity, culture and history is just too rich to be dominated by any other.If it wasn´t so, One Unit of Ayub Khan´s early days would have survived. Neither would East Pakistan have seceded. Attempts to merge five ethnic identities into a melting pot of a sixth have consistently failed [.. collective identity who want to form one unified multicultural state and society ?] I remember when Bengali news were grudgingly allowed to be read on PTV but it was too late by then.
I, Bilal, therefore beg to disagree that recognition of clear ethnic identities within Pakistan means disintegration. Why should it ? I love the Pushto turn of the phrase and the Pathan individual and unique culture as I do Punjabi, or Sindhi for that matter. I don`t know where I would be without the Urdu poetry and literature, much of which was incidentally contributed by the Punjabis again being a proof of the total harmony existing between individual cultures and languages within Pakistan. Why not accept and respect the same instead of being ashamed or feeling guilty of `Provincialism` ?
The only identity is that with which one is born. That can never change or altered alongwith exegencies of time. If that had been acknowledged, a Sindhi would have known what ``Dul Dul Painda Tera Gora Gora Rung Nee`` meant, or a Punjabi would have felt the warmth of ``Laarh Sha Peykhawar Ta Kameez Tor Ma`ala Rowra``.
My vision therefore which you ask for is a vision of Pakistan as a closely-knit confederation of the `joint-family` of individual ethnic identities. The implementation is under the section `Provinces`.
Rgds.
Zeemax
#213 Posted by zeemax on November 30, 1999 12:00:00 am
Reply #: 2 bahmad
Dear Bilal,
Broad based values are universal, and everyone has them. Indeed, these have been on every one`s agenda and look fine in a vacuum, on paper. The problem however arises coming to specifics i.e. how`s one going to do it ?
That is the dilemma of the visionary and the nuts & bolts man. Their worlds are different. The visionary looks at the world from a bird`s eye view, taking in generalities on a huge canvas, while the specifics guy on the ground can see the fine details that the visionary completely misses.
Only a combination of the two can make a great idea succeed, otherwise it´s consigned to the wastebin of history like Sony Betamax.
Indeed, the sustainability of broad perspectives in the crunch of the specific numbers game is the only thing of value. It´s always the interpretation of higher objectives translated to ground realities and implemented in a realistic environment which lead to their being achieved, otherwise they flounder. That is truly `Oneness with nature` as a great man once put it.
I think the manifesto does indeed lead to all of the broad-based values which you mention.
Rgds
Zeemax
Dear Bilal,
Broad based values are universal, and everyone has them. Indeed, these have been on every one`s agenda and look fine in a vacuum, on paper. The problem however arises coming to specifics i.e. how`s one going to do it ?
That is the dilemma of the visionary and the nuts & bolts man. Their worlds are different. The visionary looks at the world from a bird`s eye view, taking in generalities on a huge canvas, while the specifics guy on the ground can see the fine details that the visionary completely misses.
Only a combination of the two can make a great idea succeed, otherwise it´s consigned to the wastebin of history like Sony Betamax.
Indeed, the sustainability of broad perspectives in the crunch of the specific numbers game is the only thing of value. It´s always the interpretation of higher objectives translated to ground realities and implemented in a realistic environment which lead to their being achieved, otherwise they flounder. That is truly `Oneness with nature` as a great man once put it.
I think the manifesto does indeed lead to all of the broad-based values which you mention.
Rgds
Zeemax
#212 Posted by krashid on November 30, 1999 12:00:00 am
To BAhmed!
As I said before your posts are Faiz`s poem. Inciting but cool.
Empowerment of people will definitely result in good economic opportunities.
Particularly, it is my belief seeing the history of India in past and its hegemonist tendencies, that leaving other opportunities for Pakistan will be a disaster for us.
Let me explain, Pakistan has good opportunity in the region of from China, to Afghanistan, to Iran, to Turkey to Turkemenistan.
If India subjugates Pakistan,economically or otherwise, the opportunities which are due for Pakistan, will be snatched away.
I have no doubt in my mind.
Why restrict Pakistan. Why be coward.
Is India not trying its best, to continue rift in Afghanistan.
Pakistan Government whoever it may has to take decision in the best interest of its people.
The reason for optimism is not for India, in the current situation.
As far as India attacking Pakistan. Let it attack and spend another 10 or 20 billion. What next.
I totally agree with you on the internal problems of Pakistan. It is going to be a long process.
As far as Zeemax claiming NS as understanding problem of Pakistan. I have to totally disagree with him. First of all his main interest was his factories and he could not think anything beyond that whether in Internal matters or external matters. Its main manifestation is his destruction of all pillars of democracy which would have supported him at this time overtly or covertly. Its second manifestation is alienation of common man, who would have supported him. Now he has practically given the crown in plate to army, which came with support of people. Not only that, but as expected from his background, he has pushed the democratic movement years behind.
According to your contention progress of Pakistan is dependent on democracy. And I am pretty sure by democracy you will be meaning institution of democracy and not NS.
On this board with educated people, who have access to internet, we are seeing different manifestations of Pakistani thoughts. Which is a good thing also. But do we have any idea of aspirations of common man.
Zeemax rightly pointed out lifting of his friend from home by police. Is this a new phenomenon. We have seen crushing the will of province of Sind, by Governor rule without any reason by NS. With the force of police and Rangers, he abducted the whole province. The routine police brutality, increased during his tenure rather than decrease. And some of my friends who are shopkeepers here or taxi drivers etc, used to tell us about their family in Punjab. They were afraid of police brutality and powerful people regarding their family. This chain is everywhere. Common man in Punjab is as much suppressed as other parts of Pakistan by state institutions. The only solution is empowering all the people of Pakistan by some form of organization. The benefit of dividing Pakistan into political and development zone on the basis of Tehsil or some other form of unit, will be as much beneficial to the coomon man in Punjab as it will be for Sind, Baluchistan and NWFP.
As I said before your posts are Faiz`s poem. Inciting but cool.
Empowerment of people will definitely result in good economic opportunities.
Particularly, it is my belief seeing the history of India in past and its hegemonist tendencies, that leaving other opportunities for Pakistan will be a disaster for us.
Let me explain, Pakistan has good opportunity in the region of from China, to Afghanistan, to Iran, to Turkey to Turkemenistan.
If India subjugates Pakistan,economically or otherwise, the opportunities which are due for Pakistan, will be snatched away.
I have no doubt in my mind.
Why restrict Pakistan. Why be coward.
Is India not trying its best, to continue rift in Afghanistan.
Pakistan Government whoever it may has to take decision in the best interest of its people.
The reason for optimism is not for India, in the current situation.
As far as India attacking Pakistan. Let it attack and spend another 10 or 20 billion. What next.
I totally agree with you on the internal problems of Pakistan. It is going to be a long process.
As far as Zeemax claiming NS as understanding problem of Pakistan. I have to totally disagree with him. First of all his main interest was his factories and he could not think anything beyond that whether in Internal matters or external matters. Its main manifestation is his destruction of all pillars of democracy which would have supported him at this time overtly or covertly. Its second manifestation is alienation of common man, who would have supported him. Now he has practically given the crown in plate to army, which came with support of people. Not only that, but as expected from his background, he has pushed the democratic movement years behind.
According to your contention progress of Pakistan is dependent on democracy. And I am pretty sure by democracy you will be meaning institution of democracy and not NS.
On this board with educated people, who have access to internet, we are seeing different manifestations of Pakistani thoughts. Which is a good thing also. But do we have any idea of aspirations of common man.
Zeemax rightly pointed out lifting of his friend from home by police. Is this a new phenomenon. We have seen crushing the will of province of Sind, by Governor rule without any reason by NS. With the force of police and Rangers, he abducted the whole province. The routine police brutality, increased during his tenure rather than decrease. And some of my friends who are shopkeepers here or taxi drivers etc, used to tell us about their family in Punjab. They were afraid of police brutality and powerful people regarding their family. This chain is everywhere. Common man in Punjab is as much suppressed as other parts of Pakistan by state institutions. The only solution is empowering all the people of Pakistan by some form of organization. The benefit of dividing Pakistan into political and development zone on the basis of Tehsil or some other form of unit, will be as much beneficial to the coomon man in Punjab as it will be for Sind, Baluchistan and NWFP.
#211 Posted by concerned on November 30, 1999 12:00:00 am
dear zeemax #331:
i was fairly young during indira`s emergency rule. many tales of horror were reported but i hardly remember any now. what i do remember are two movies that were made during that period :
1. aandhi - with aparna sen (i think) as indira gandhi and sanjeev kumar as her husband.
2. kissa kursi ka - many actors and actresses
movies can have a profound influence on people. i don`t remember exactly what led to the end of emergency but it couldn`t have been possible without great majority of ordinary people protesting against it. one would hope that it would remain a possibility in pakistan.
you are doing a great job on chowk. keep it up and more would join you.
i was fairly young during indira`s emergency rule. many tales of horror were reported but i hardly remember any now. what i do remember are two movies that were made during that period :
1. aandhi - with aparna sen (i think) as indira gandhi and sanjeev kumar as her husband.
2. kissa kursi ka - many actors and actresses
movies can have a profound influence on people. i don`t remember exactly what led to the end of emergency but it couldn`t have been possible without great majority of ordinary people protesting against it. one would hope that it would remain a possibility in pakistan.
you are doing a great job on chowk. keep it up and more would join you.
#210 Posted by bahmad on November 30, 1999 12:00:00 am
In response to Zeemax (Reply #: 328)
Dear Zeemax:
Your seem to be a passionate young man (young at heart!). I can understand your feelings and emotions.
In view of Pakistan long history of a lack of proper direction and mismanagement, we may not find a quick fix of her multifarious problems. These problems have grown through a process, these need to be resolved through a process. What we need first is a desire to make things right, and a vision and strategy to act appropriately. What kind of vision, and what kind of strategy? For this, we need to put our heads together and think. This process needs to be slow, gradual, and uninterrupted. We, however, need to find some short-term solutions as well, as long as they remain only short term and do not distract us from our long-term goals.
Common sense suggests that we need to drastically reduce our debt, reduce our defense expenditure (particularly hardware), unilateral declaration of guaranteed peaceful (non-militaristic) resolution of all conflicts, improvement of relations with all nations of the world (particularly our neighbors), a well-designed program of national reconstruction, and a political system that establishes the sovereignty of the people of Pakistan. For all these things, we need not simply ask how and then close the chapter. We need to ask how and then find a way to deal with it. I am sure all ``Afra Tafri`` will slowly and gradually end if we start asserting ourselves (as Arun Gupta has rightly pointed out). But, isn`t it what we are trying to do on the Chowk? So, don`t lose hope and keep writing against those who have usurped the rights of the people of Pakistan for (at least) more than two generations.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
Dear Zeemax:
Your seem to be a passionate young man (young at heart!). I can understand your feelings and emotions.
In view of Pakistan long history of a lack of proper direction and mismanagement, we may not find a quick fix of her multifarious problems. These problems have grown through a process, these need to be resolved through a process. What we need first is a desire to make things right, and a vision and strategy to act appropriately. What kind of vision, and what kind of strategy? For this, we need to put our heads together and think. This process needs to be slow, gradual, and uninterrupted. We, however, need to find some short-term solutions as well, as long as they remain only short term and do not distract us from our long-term goals.
Common sense suggests that we need to drastically reduce our debt, reduce our defense expenditure (particularly hardware), unilateral declaration of guaranteed peaceful (non-militaristic) resolution of all conflicts, improvement of relations with all nations of the world (particularly our neighbors), a well-designed program of national reconstruction, and a political system that establishes the sovereignty of the people of Pakistan. For all these things, we need not simply ask how and then close the chapter. We need to ask how and then find a way to deal with it. I am sure all ``Afra Tafri`` will slowly and gradually end if we start asserting ourselves (as Arun Gupta has rightly pointed out). But, isn`t it what we are trying to do on the Chowk? So, don`t lose hope and keep writing against those who have usurped the rights of the people of Pakistan for (at least) more than two generations.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
#209 Posted by shankar on November 30, 1999 12:00:00 am
Zeemax,
Re posts#328-331
Take it easy, my friend! I sincerely hope you were joking or being sarcastic by lamenting about the state of affairs in Pakistan. If you were, then you got me/us good!
For a second, you forced me to contemplate what I, as an Indian, would feel if your pessimisstic scenario did occur.
I guess the way most Pakistanis feel about us Indians, you may not believe it---but I felt horrified!
Many of our disagreements may be irreconcilable. But Indians today accept & recognise Pakistan as a sovereign country. The preindependance generation of Indians is either dead or getting senile, so they dont influence our thinking, as much as you may believe.
If by some miracle India did occupy Lahore (& if they were foolish enough to do so), do you think the rest of Pakistan will meekly accept that? not to mention the rest of the Islamic world? Despite all the criticisms I may have of Pakistanis--you are a very proud & patriotic people. I feel you would rather die than submit in defeat. It would be suicide for India to think they can conquer Pakistan. Its one thing to occupy a country. Its another thing to govern it.The Soviets found that out in Afganistan.
I think both India & Pakistan will totter along, limping behind the rest of the world, burdened by hate & prejudice & may even outlast the Western civilisation. Our civilsations golden age has come & gone--now its basic survival--but IMHO it will go on for centuries.
Rgds
Re posts#328-331
Take it easy, my friend! I sincerely hope you were joking or being sarcastic by lamenting about the state of affairs in Pakistan. If you were, then you got me/us good!
For a second, you forced me to contemplate what I, as an Indian, would feel if your pessimisstic scenario did occur.
I guess the way most Pakistanis feel about us Indians, you may not believe it---but I felt horrified!
Many of our disagreements may be irreconcilable. But Indians today accept & recognise Pakistan as a sovereign country. The preindependance generation of Indians is either dead or getting senile, so they dont influence our thinking, as much as you may believe.
If by some miracle India did occupy Lahore (& if they were foolish enough to do so), do you think the rest of Pakistan will meekly accept that? not to mention the rest of the Islamic world? Despite all the criticisms I may have of Pakistanis--you are a very proud & patriotic people. I feel you would rather die than submit in defeat. It would be suicide for India to think they can conquer Pakistan. Its one thing to occupy a country. Its another thing to govern it.The Soviets found that out in Afganistan.
I think both India & Pakistan will totter along, limping behind the rest of the world, burdened by hate & prejudice & may even outlast the Western civilisation. Our civilsations golden age has come & gone--now its basic survival--but IMHO it will go on for centuries.
Rgds
#208 Posted by farangi_kush on November 30, 1999 12:00:00 am
Zeemax # 331
Happy to know that there are people with feelings in India & Pakistan.
We are human.Even the ones we think who are `movers & shakers` in the world are but gnats in the grand scheme of things & no whit greater or smaller than you & I.
The only thing that matters is that how much & what you did & which side you were on.The rest is all upto Allah-ta`ala.(the puny scientist on this earth is but a quark who doesn`t know if he is coming or going,the `now you see it,now you don`t phenmenon in particle physics`).
There will not be a final whistle in this game...except on an individual basis.Our audit will be carried out on the Day of Judgement for us muslims:This being an integral part of our belief.
It should never ever sadden you about the future of a geographical entity.Our Prophet(s.a.w) has taught us that geograghical entities are not nations.We are a nation even without a homeland.Only,that it is nice to own a house than rent all the time,so that you can do a few things a little freely--that is all.A king without a country is still a king in exile.
The concept of immigration,borders,visas,citizenships is a very farangi & colonial concept & the borders are nothing more than corrals to keep the two-legged beasts of burden in-----a continuation of the practise of slavery. If East Pakistan as Bangladesh is doing well then our hearts are filled with joy to see part of our ummah doing well in their own home,just as a loving sibling does.Why did our farangi-pet politicians,civil servants & army-officers treat them as apartheid really confounds me.If these characters had basic islamic values it would not have happened.The BA BA BLACKSHEEP schools are the cause of it.Jamiah Milliahs & Madressas never produced such farangi-pets(From Jinnah to Hakim Saeed,all had their schooling in madressah).
Drinking & fornicating with abandon are the hallmark of our ``intelligentsia`` & this to them is the sign of their having made a lot of progress.Look down upon them,hound them out,spit on them in learned company.Make it unfashionable for them to display this with impunity.Choree should always be choree,it should never be allowed to become seena-zoree.
The real bane on poor Pakistan(& India) are people like us who are trying to transplant our foreign stupidities upon our brilliant non-english speaking population.The farangi was never ashamed to talk to them,learn from them & then package it as his own to sell it back to us.(95% of pharmacopaeia is Indian & Pakistani origin).In every field same thing has happened.Knowledge does not grow on trees or one is born pre-equipped with it.It is acquired from somewhere.
Talking about making money? Want to make all the 5 sub-continent-countries immensely powerful & rich? All these countries should patent & take out a trademark on the arabic/indian numerals, only on digit``0`` & charge everyone using it or having used it a mere 1 lousy paisa.Why not? when micro-soft/US govt can charge you for symbols why can`t you.All the aborgines(the real owners of lands occupied by these thugs) can enslave the entire colonising people for at least another 10,000 years & then perhaps be freed on compassionate grounds....But of course they are civilised & won`t do it.(Just kidding to drive home a point!)
Jo Aaj tujh sey judaa hain tho kal bahum hongay
Yeh raat bhur kee judaii tho koi baat naheen
Gur aaj auj pey hai ta`aley raqeeb tho kiya
Yeh chaar din ki khudaii tho koi baat nahee
Jo tujh sey ehde vafa ustavar rakhtey hain
Ilaaje Gurdishe lailo nahar rakhtey hain.
And now for a little fun:
``The city was bustling with excitement.I sauntered over to a halwaii shop.The summer heat was unbearable,i wanted a cool glass of lassi.When I looked inside the shop,I was dumbfounded to see the electric fan whirring in the direction opposite the halwaii & the customers.
I asked him why so?.The halwaii gave me a scornfulful look from head to toe and having ascertained his doubts about my stupidity,shieked:
Don`t you see it is facing the Quaid-e-azam.And I did see a large poster of Mr.Jinnah cooled by the fan.``
from ``siah Haashyiey``--Manto-----(around 1947)
Feel better now?
Happy to know that there are people with feelings in India & Pakistan.
We are human.Even the ones we think who are `movers & shakers` in the world are but gnats in the grand scheme of things & no whit greater or smaller than you & I.
The only thing that matters is that how much & what you did & which side you were on.The rest is all upto Allah-ta`ala.(the puny scientist on this earth is but a quark who doesn`t know if he is coming or going,the `now you see it,now you don`t phenmenon in particle physics`).
There will not be a final whistle in this game...except on an individual basis.Our audit will be carried out on the Day of Judgement for us muslims:This being an integral part of our belief.
It should never ever sadden you about the future of a geographical entity.Our Prophet(s.a.w) has taught us that geograghical entities are not nations.We are a nation even without a homeland.Only,that it is nice to own a house than rent all the time,so that you can do a few things a little freely--that is all.A king without a country is still a king in exile.
The concept of immigration,borders,visas,citizenships is a very farangi & colonial concept & the borders are nothing more than corrals to keep the two-legged beasts of burden in-----a continuation of the practise of slavery. If East Pakistan as Bangladesh is doing well then our hearts are filled with joy to see part of our ummah doing well in their own home,just as a loving sibling does.Why did our farangi-pet politicians,civil servants & army-officers treat them as apartheid really confounds me.If these characters had basic islamic values it would not have happened.The BA BA BLACKSHEEP schools are the cause of it.Jamiah Milliahs & Madressas never produced such farangi-pets(From Jinnah to Hakim Saeed,all had their schooling in madressah).
Drinking & fornicating with abandon are the hallmark of our ``intelligentsia`` & this to them is the sign of their having made a lot of progress.Look down upon them,hound them out,spit on them in learned company.Make it unfashionable for them to display this with impunity.Choree should always be choree,it should never be allowed to become seena-zoree.
The real bane on poor Pakistan(& India) are people like us who are trying to transplant our foreign stupidities upon our brilliant non-english speaking population.The farangi was never ashamed to talk to them,learn from them & then package it as his own to sell it back to us.(95% of pharmacopaeia is Indian & Pakistani origin).In every field same thing has happened.Knowledge does not grow on trees or one is born pre-equipped with it.It is acquired from somewhere.
Talking about making money? Want to make all the 5 sub-continent-countries immensely powerful & rich? All these countries should patent & take out a trademark on the arabic/indian numerals, only on digit``0`` & charge everyone using it or having used it a mere 1 lousy paisa.Why not? when micro-soft/US govt can charge you for symbols why can`t you.All the aborgines(the real owners of lands occupied by these thugs) can enslave the entire colonising people for at least another 10,000 years & then perhaps be freed on compassionate grounds....But of course they are civilised & won`t do it.(Just kidding to drive home a point!)
Jo Aaj tujh sey judaa hain tho kal bahum hongay
Yeh raat bhur kee judaii tho koi baat naheen
Gur aaj auj pey hai ta`aley raqeeb tho kiya
Yeh chaar din ki khudaii tho koi baat nahee
Jo tujh sey ehde vafa ustavar rakhtey hain
Ilaaje Gurdishe lailo nahar rakhtey hain.
And now for a little fun:
``The city was bustling with excitement.I sauntered over to a halwaii shop.The summer heat was unbearable,i wanted a cool glass of lassi.When I looked inside the shop,I was dumbfounded to see the electric fan whirring in the direction opposite the halwaii & the customers.
I asked him why so?.The halwaii gave me a scornfulful look from head to toe and having ascertained his doubts about my stupidity,shieked:
Don`t you see it is facing the Quaid-e-azam.And I did see a large poster of Mr.Jinnah cooled by the fan.``
from ``siah Haashyiey``--Manto-----(around 1947)
Feel better now?
#207 Posted by bahmad on November 30, 1999 12:00:00 am
In response to Zeemax (Reply #: 330) and macgupta (Reply # 327)
Dear Friends:
As we can see clearly the Zeemax is passing through a sad personal moment, I want to convey my best wishes to him and his Senator friend (and his loved ones). Let us act such that no child in Pakistan should ever live in a state of fear.
Arun Gupta`s sentiments once again demonstrate that there is not shortage of good human beings in and from India. I believe this is also true for Pakistan. Although Arun is a bit too kind in his gesture and diagnosis, he has rightly pointed out that the we need to awaken and assert ourselves. Last year, I published the following letter in the Frontier Post. This letter was written in the spirit of what Arun has rightly pointed out.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
P.S. I encourage all Pakistanis to start writing reasonable, assertive, and sound letters to various Pakistani newspapers. Frontier Post currently has a fairly liberal and no-censorship policy.
Our habits, our empowerment
Eighteenth-Century German physicist and philosopher G. G. Lichtenber described a habit as ``a moral friction`` or ``something that prevents the mind from gliding over things but connects it with them and makes it hard for it to free itself from them.``
We are indeed slaves of our habits. One good example is the habit of accepting unjust social practices as long as it does not hurt us and hurt us hard. Such a safe but selfish attitude is a part of our nation`s plight. Acceptance of unjust practices is often a product of our feeling of powerlessness. But, power is a relational term. The oppressors empower themselves by
oppressing the weak. The weak empower themselves only when they decide to by recognizing
their rights and demanding them in as peaceful a manner as possible. Violence is a sign of
weakness. It is also a sign of destruction. Altaf Hussain is right that ``violence breeds violence.``
But, how right was Lewis H. Lapman who once observed: ``A society that presumes a norm of
violence and celebrates aggression . . . cannot help making celebrities of the people who would
destroy it.``
Shouldn`t we empower ourselves by getting out of our moral frictions peacefully in order to save
our country from its, and our, imminent destruction?
Bilal Ahmad,
USA
Dear Friends:
As we can see clearly the Zeemax is passing through a sad personal moment, I want to convey my best wishes to him and his Senator friend (and his loved ones). Let us act such that no child in Pakistan should ever live in a state of fear.
Arun Gupta`s sentiments once again demonstrate that there is not shortage of good human beings in and from India. I believe this is also true for Pakistan. Although Arun is a bit too kind in his gesture and diagnosis, he has rightly pointed out that the we need to awaken and assert ourselves. Last year, I published the following letter in the Frontier Post. This letter was written in the spirit of what Arun has rightly pointed out.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
P.S. I encourage all Pakistanis to start writing reasonable, assertive, and sound letters to various Pakistani newspapers. Frontier Post currently has a fairly liberal and no-censorship policy.
Our habits, our empowerment
Eighteenth-Century German physicist and philosopher G. G. Lichtenber described a habit as ``a moral friction`` or ``something that prevents the mind from gliding over things but connects it with them and makes it hard for it to free itself from them.``
We are indeed slaves of our habits. One good example is the habit of accepting unjust social practices as long as it does not hurt us and hurt us hard. Such a safe but selfish attitude is a part of our nation`s plight. Acceptance of unjust practices is often a product of our feeling of powerlessness. But, power is a relational term. The oppressors empower themselves by
oppressing the weak. The weak empower themselves only when they decide to by recognizing
their rights and demanding them in as peaceful a manner as possible. Violence is a sign of
weakness. It is also a sign of destruction. Altaf Hussain is right that ``violence breeds violence.``
But, how right was Lewis H. Lapman who once observed: ``A society that presumes a norm of
violence and celebrates aggression . . . cannot help making celebrities of the people who would
destroy it.``
Shouldn`t we empower ourselves by getting out of our moral frictions peacefully in order to save
our country from its, and our, imminent destruction?
Bilal Ahmad,
USA
#206 Posted by gymnosophist on November 30, 1999 12:00:00 am
Ref Zeemax #: 329
We in India experienced similar dark days during Indira Gandhi`s Emergency. Fortunately, that lasted only 18 months. What a pity that true patriots should be treated like this. How can anyone overlook these events when they support autocratic rule? Haven`t we learnt anything at all from the Stalinist, Nazi, Maoist dictatorships?
You, sir, are more than a patriot. Your love of humanity shows through in your posts. That comes not from mere bookish knowledge, but from age, experience and wisdom. I hope the average South Asian takes inspiration from the likes of you.
Regards.
We in India experienced similar dark days during Indira Gandhi`s Emergency. Fortunately, that lasted only 18 months. What a pity that true patriots should be treated like this. How can anyone overlook these events when they support autocratic rule? Haven`t we learnt anything at all from the Stalinist, Nazi, Maoist dictatorships?
You, sir, are more than a patriot. Your love of humanity shows through in your posts. That comes not from mere bookish knowledge, but from age, experience and wisdom. I hope the average South Asian takes inspiration from the likes of you.
Regards.
#205 Posted by macgupta on November 30, 1999 12:00:00 am
Zeemax, ``Pakistan is finished as an entity`` is extreme, even Pakistan`s worst enemies would not think so. I personally think that Pakistan as an entity will be around for a long time; the issue is really ``How well will Pakistan do ?`` Current indications are not good; but there is nothing fundamental that blocks improvement. People have to awaken and assert themselves.
-arun gupta
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